What would the family of 4+ version look like?

[maestramommy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/opinion/sunday/living-with-less-a-lot-less.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I love these articles for their principle but where it stops being helpful is when it's about a single childless person. What happens when you have a couple with 2+ kids?

Obviously we live in a larger house (though not as big as the person in the article's first house, yowza!), but I would still like to get to the point where I am not constantly having to declutter just to keep myself sane. It's not the "stuff" is even stuff, it's clutter crap! Maybe more efficient/permanent storage solutions would work, but I don't know how to even get started. I don't need an interior designer, I need a professional organizer!

[o_mom]

More like this? http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13107828

[o_mom]

Ohh.... check this out: http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/is-living-in-small-spaces-cruel-to-children.html

I'm cracking up at the comments that it is 'cruel' to the kids, lol.

[Katigre]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/opinion/sunday/living-with-less-a-lot-less.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I love these articles for their principle but where it stops being helpful is when it's about a single childless person. What happens when you have a couple with 2+ kids?

Obviously we live in a larger house (though not as big as the person in the article's first house, yowza!), but I would still like to get to the point where I am not constantly having to declutter just to keep myself sane. It's not the "stuff" is even stuff, it's clutter crap! Maybe more efficient/permanent storage solutions would work, but I don't know how to even get started. I don't need an interior designer, I need a professional organizer!

The first step is twofold:

1. Stop buying so much stuff
2. Get rid of 80% of you stuff (as a goal, so you eventually get rid of more like 40 percent)

A professional organizer is still staying stuck in the "help me manage my stuff" vs purging it imo.

A few things we do:
1. Say no to junk trinket toys in Easter baskets and Christmas stockings
2. Regularly purge what we have - each child has a small plastic Rubbermaid box for trinkets and when it gets full they have to get rid of some.

3. Say no to excess clothing. Pick one color scheme for your kids clothes. There is no reason to have more than 2-3 pairs of shoes per child. They need under 10 outfits no matter how cute the others are. Etc...

4. Stay out of target! Stores are designed to make you buy things in impulse, and staying out of them (and off of online deal sites) is a HUGE step toward taming clutter.

5. Lower how many "physical" gifts you give at holidays. Ex. Dd got a bunch of birthday money from a great grandparent. I could have taken her on a toy shopping spree but instead she is using it for some ballet classes.


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[o_mom]

A professional organizer is still staying stuck in the "help me manage my stuff" vs purging it imo.



So true.

[Katigre]

I'd also recommend this book to help out your in the mindset of living with less. I'm halfway through it and really enjoying it. It would make a good book club selection too.

Seven: an experimental mutiny against excess by Jen Hatmaker

http://jenhatmaker.com - has a trailer video for the book

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1433672960/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

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[maestramommy]

The first step is twofold:

1. Stop buying so much stuff
2. Get rid of 80% of you stuff (as a goal, so you eventually get rid of more like 40 percent)

A professional organizer is still staying stuck in the "help me manage my stuff" vs purging it imo.

A few things we do:
1. Say no to junk trinket toys in Easter baskets and Christmas stockings
2. Regularly purge what we have - each child has a small plastic Rubbermaid box for trinkets and when it gets full they have to get rid of some.

3. Say no to excess clothing. Pick one color scheme for your kids clothes. There is no reason to have more than 2-3 pairs of shoes per child. They need under 10 outfits no matter how cute the others are. Etc...

4. Stay out of target! Stores are designed to make you buy things in impulse, and staying out of them (and off of online deal sites) is a HUGE step toward taming clutter.

5. Lower how many "physical" gifts you give at holidays. Ex. Dd got a bunch of birthday money from a great grandparent. I could have taken her on a toy shopping spree but instead she is using it for some ballet classes.


Sent from my Android phone using Swype
We already do all this! In fact, I started purging HME clothing because my kids were not wearing 50% of it. The kids get ONE gift from us for Christmas, and I still do a major purge the week before. Part of our problem is that wee didn'tpurge before we moved. DH has papers and stuff from grad school and I have sheet music and teaching stuff that I'm hanging onto in case I go back to work in the same field.
The clutter crap comes from various mystery sources, and I keep constantly sneaking it into the trash.

[gatorsmom]

Ohh.... check this out: http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/is-living-in-small-spaces-cruel-to-children.html

I'm cracking up at the comments that it is 'cruel' to the kids, lol.

Ha! More like cruelty to the parents! I have to say, though, that that is a really cool apartment. If it was for use while visiting the city, I'd love that!

I stayed once in an apartment in the tiny touristy area of Strasbourg in a one room apartment where the bed and dining table were all Murphy-style. When the bed was down, nothing else fit in the room. Even the dining chair folded up. A couple lived there. It was fascinating to me. When they started having kids, they moved. :ROTFLMAO:

[MamaMolly]

More like this? http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13107828

Thank you for this, and all the others! DH and I are planning a move in the fall and I'm trying to convince him that a smaller place is a good idea. It is easier if I let the 'experts' do the talking ;)

[BayGirl2]

Ohh.... check this out: http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/is-living-in-small-spaces-cruel-to-children.html

I'm cracking up at the comments that it is 'cruel' to the kids, lol.

OMG - I had to read this. What is wrong with these people? Do they really think everyone in the world lives like Americans?
I admit we now have a nice comfy 2800 sq ft house for a family of four, but I am in no way under the impression that this is a necessity, or the norm in other countries, or really doing an favors to our kids. Sometimes I'm embarrassed by the xenophobia of Americans!

[maestramommy]

More like this? http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=13107828

I think that is great! Well we already have an almost 2500 sf home that we don't plan on leaving any time soon. But I do think that if I came up with more efficient storage it would help a great deal. For example, after 2 years of griping I finally bought a 2 tier shoe rack to fit into this space where Dh and I were trying to stack our shoes, but ultimately he just tossed them in there. I finally got fed up with my street shoes getting trashed by his sneakers. Now I just have to figure out how to replace the kids' coat closets (they were DIY) with something that takes less space. These are example of issues I have. We have PLENTY of space, including space that hardly gets used. But I still fee like we have too much stuff because there isn't a designated place for it.

BTW Katigre, I put the 7 book in my wish list ages ago on rec from someone else. Keep looking to see if the library will pick it up because I don't want to buy it, lol!

[Katigre]

I think that is great! Well we already have an almost 2500 sf home that we don't plan on leaving any time soon. But I do think that if I came up with more efficient storage it would help a great deal. For example, after 2 years of griping I finally bought a 2 tier shoe rack to fit into this space where Dh and I were trying to stack our shoes, but ultimately he just tossed them in there. I finally got fed up with my street shoes getting trashed by his sneakers. Now I just have to figure out how to replace the kids' coat closets (they were DIY) with something that takes less space. These are example of issues I have. We have PLENTY of space, including space that hardly gets used. But I still fee like we have too much stuff because there isn't a designated place for it.

BTW Katigre, I put the 7 book in my wish list ages ago on rec from someone else. Keep looking to see if the library will pick it up because I don't want to buy it, lol!
Can't you do a material request? I ask my library to buy books all the time and they do it 90 percent of the time (the rest they get me as interlibrary loan).


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[AnnieW625]

We are a family of 4 in 1100 sq. feet. We make do and sometimes it sucks and I wish I had a den or a small alcove for our computer and it's armoire. I wish we had a second bathroom, or at least a half bath. Our laundry is off the kitchen. My house is a mess a lot and we don't have half the amount of toys that many kids we know have. I am hoping to cheap out on my kids birthday parties this year (DD1 is getting pizza, ice cream, and snacks with her class after school on a half day) and I am not even sure if we are doing a party for DD2 so we can get them the wooden Costco playhouse (it's $279). Both of my girls have gotten A LOT of hand me down clothes. I need to go through them and donate the ones I know they won't wear. I can't wait until both of my girls are in school uniforms, it will make things soo much easier. I am hoping that the pre k DD2 will go to (at DD1's school) will have a uniform. It makes life so much easier! Both DH and I are at a point in our lives where we want it gone. Living in a smaller house does have it's privelidges, but sometimes the thought of 1500 sq. feet just sounds grand.

Anyone notice that someone linked a Treehugger.com article, and that the author of the editorial was the founder of treehugger.com?

[maestramommy]

Can't you do a material request? I ask my library to buy books all the time and they do it 90 percent of the time (the rest they get me as interlibrary loan).


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Haven't tried that before! We have interlibrary loan already, and there's not a single copy in the whole Southern NH system. I will ask the next time I go, thanks!

[maestramommy]

Anyone notice that someone linked a Treehugger.com article, and that the author of the editorial was the founder of treehugger.com?


Yes! I didn't know until I read the Oped that he was the founder of treehugger.com. But I thought it was funny there was a linked article.


Both DH and I are at a point in our lives where we want it gone. Living in a smaller house does have it's privelidges, but sometimes the thought of 1500 sq. feet just sounds grand.

I feel the same way about the kiddie stuff. I did take a look around the girls' bedroom just now and realized that we have 3 kids in one room, with all their (seasonal) clothes, and still have some closet room to spare, so we are doing pretty well. Still I think we can do better if I continue to purge in a timely fashion, and not wait until it's driving me bonkers!

[amatahrain]

Haven't tried that before! We have interlibrary loan already, and there's not a single copy in the whole Southern NH system. I will ask the next time I go, thanks!

When I lived in Manchester NH I was able to get a book from a library in Boston. If believe I did the request online through the NH library and they sent it to my local library for me to pickup.

[maestramommy]

When I lived in Manchester NH I was able to get a book from a library in Boston. If believe I did the request online through the NH library and they sent it to my local library for me to pickup.

Well as it turns out I didn't have to go this far. I called in and got transferred to the reference librarian. She found a copy somewhere so it's on it's way, woot!

[Mommy_Mea]

The first step is twofold:

1. Stop buying so much stuff
2. Get rid of 80% of you stuff (as a goal, so you eventually get rid of more like 40 percent)

A professional organizer is still staying stuck in the "help me manage my stuff" vs purging it imo.

A few things we do:
1. Say no to junk trinket toys in Easter baskets and Christmas stockings
2. Regularly purge what we have - each child has a small plastic Rubbermaid box for trinkets and when it gets full they have to get rid of some.

3. Say no to excess clothing. Pick one color scheme for your kids clothes. There is no reason to have more than 2-3 pairs of shoes per child. They need under 10 outfits no matter how cute the others are. Etc...

4. Stay out of target! Stores are designed to make you buy things in impulse, and staying out of them (and off of online deal sites) is a HUGE step toward taming clutter.

5. Lower how many "physical" gifts you give at holidays. Ex. Dd got a bunch of birthday money from a great grandparent. I could have taken her on a toy shopping spree but instead she is using it for some ballet classes.


Sent from my Android phone using Swype

We do a lot of this, but I really like the ideas of picking a color scheme for kids clothing. I don't buy much in the way of shoes, so it usually means the shoes don't match, lol. Better solution would be to stick to one color.

If it were up to ds1, it would be all red :-)

We live in 1600 SF, and we could easy lose a room and not miss it. We have tons of empty closets. They were stuffed full by the previous owners, plus the basement, plus a storage area! I think I would have a panic attack with that much stuff. I still feel like we consume too much, and spend a lot of time and money organizing the stuff that we have. It feels like an endless loop sometimes.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

this is fascinating. this jumped out at me:

Our fondness for stuff affects almost every aspect of our lives. Housing size, for example, has ballooned in the last 60 years. The average size of a new American home in 1950 was 983 square feet; by 2011, the average new home was 2,480 square feet. And those figures don’t provide a full picture. In 1950, an average of 3.37 people lived in each American home; in 2011, that number had shrunk to 2.6 people. This means that we take up more than three times the amount of space per capita than we did 60 years ago.

i talk about this with DH a lot. when we visit his grandmother she still lives in the same house that FIL grew up in....tiny 3bd (maybe 1000 sq ft?) with one bathroom...and they had SIX children! I cannot even imagine. Yet they did it, bc that is all they knew.

I really do think that in many ways the "bigger is always better" of American culture in general is just out of control. Compared to others i know from other countries, it really does seem like as a nation, we eat too much (most of it processed crap), we take up too much space, and our kids are incredibly spoiled and picky. I do notice a huge difference when i see kids with parents from other cultures. hwen i lived in Japan it was another eye-opener. DH's good friend from France lives in Boston area and lives in 2bd 1300 sq feet with 2 kids (boy and girl). they've always shared a room and they act like it's no big deal at all. I know many would say things like it's "unfair" or "cruel" for opposite gender kids to share a room but they seem pretty happy.

It's embarrassing as our house is 3,300 sq ft and i do struggle constantly to keep it clean and decluttered. we do have a ton of stuff. the grandparents, especially the ILs like to buy the kids tons of toys and trinkets. we did donate a ton of stuff to goodwill recently but it's like not enough.

what has helped recently though is me working fulltime, so i dont' have time to really shop and pick up junke anymore (LOL). i do most shopping online, except for groceries.

[AnnieW625]

......i talk about this with DH a lot. when we visit his grandmother she still lives in the same house that FIL grew up in....tiny 3bd (maybe 1000 sq ft?) with one bathroom...and they had SIX children! I cannot even imagine. Yet they did it, bc that is all they knew.

Friends of our family in the early 1950s grew up in the same neighborhood we live in when their kids were really little. 3 beds, 1 bath, and with 4 kids under 5, including one who was born deaf. They moved I think not too long after they had the 4th kid in 1955, but still I always think of them when I think my house is too small. They moved to a slightly bigger house in a bigger lot home tract, and then the mom who is 84 now has moved back to a different little 3/1 house and is perfectly happy again.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

i should add though, that a key difference between having kids in the 1950s and having kids now...back then (when not in school) kids just literally played outside all day. by themselves. FIL said that he and his siblings would just leave early in the day and then only come back when it was time for dinner. they were of course unsupervised the whole time. and i'm talking when they were pretty young. the older kids would watch the younger ones/babies. so there was much less need for toys, space inside a home, etc bc kids basically were only there when it was time to sleep or eat. in the stringent standards of today (e.g. not leaving for your toddlers unsupervised for several hours at a time), i think it would be much harder to make do with that little space.

[rin]

Our family might count? We have four people and a medium dog in 1100 sq feet, including a home office since DH works from home full-time. If you take the office off, we have maybe 1000 sq feet or so. We do have a garden shed where we keep pots, gardening tools, etc, and also where we store bikes. That's maybe 10x15; I don't count it as living space, but maybe I should? Our house was built in the 50s, so it's one of those "family bungalows" from back in the day. When we bought it it was 850 sq feet, and we converted the garage to get it up to 1100. I'm always bewildered by threads where people talk about feeling cramped in, say, 2000 sq feet.

I think some of it is how you envision your home. I feel like many people nowadays spend a lot of time indoors in their homes; we try to spend a lot of time outside, and we use our yard a lot as living space. We have a table & chairs on the back patio, and in the summer we eat outside for many meals. We don't have a playroom, but we try to push a lot of kid play outdoors, and we've spent a lot of time/effort making our backyard a fun place for kids to play.

We also just don't buy stuff recreationally. I mean, we're not super Spartan, but we don't buy clothes for fun, we don't buy new versions of things just to update, but really only when the old versions are broken, and we generally sell/donate the old versions of things right away (like we just ordered a Vitamix but our old blender broke and we're selling our juicer). Most of our storage right now is baby stuff (since we're still on the fence about having #3). If I'm not using something, rather than letting it collect dust I try to pass it on to someone who can use it. We love freecycle, and have gotten/given away lots and lots of things there.

When I am hit with the urge to do recreational shopping, I go to a fun grocery store (maybe organic, or some different ethnic store). :)

[ladysoapmaker]

We are 6 people in a 960 sq ft house, though if you add the part of the finished basement it's probably about 1150 sq ft. We are cluttered because we haven't had a purge in a while but it's slowly happening. DH is currently unemployed and he's been cleaning. We have too many toys and hand me down clothes. Luckily the kids are losing their pack rat tendency. I need to work on it myself.

Jen

[twowhat?]

i should add though, that a key difference between having kids in the 1950s and having kids now...back then (when not in school) kids just literally played outside all day. by themselves. FIL said that he and his siblings would just leave early in the day and then only come back when it was time for dinner. they were of course unsupervised the whole time. and i'm talking when they were pretty young. the older kids would watch the younger ones/babies. so there was much less need for toys, space inside a home, etc bc kids basically were only there when it was time to sleep or eat. in the stringent standards of today (e.g. not leaving for your toddlers unsupervised for several hours at a time), i think it would be much harder to make do with that little space.

Yeah, ITA that raising kids now is a whole different ballgame. Supervision is now a requirement at all times for young kids. There isn't the same "it takes a village" outlook on raising kids, where you could count on your neighbors to let you know if your kid was misbehaving or got hurt while out in the neighborhood playing. We live in a world where more and more families choose to have 2 working parents either due to necessity or desire. It's just so much harder in the present (and this is not a WOHM vs SAHM kind of statement - just noting that working out of the house complicates things by way of kids not being able to play around the home/outside).

Of course, a lot of that IS due to the fact that we complicate life, in general. We (and I'm using "We" in a very general sense) overanalyze toys and gear, buy the latest and greatest when it comes out for the miniscule difference in safety that it may provide, buy the latest kitchen gadget in an attempt to eat healthier, etc (yes, refering to the Vitamix threads, and I wholeheartedly participate in "buy kitchen gadgets to get us to eat better" LOL). Life was simpler years ago.

Though having said that, I also totally agree that we don't NEED the giant house and all the stuff and that we WOULD be happier with less. Most of our toys remain un-played with anyway! I know my kids get bored of toys in part because they know how easy it is for us to BUY NEW TOYS rather than force them to be creative with their existing toys. Despite how life has been complicated today, I think there ARE ways to keep things simple(r) within the constraints of modern life. And this thread is totally motivating me to re-think the way we do things.

But it's so hard to simplify, OP! It's like an uphill battle!

[maiaann]

I love reading those inspiring, decluttering articles. I placed an order on Amazon, then read this thread. Immediately I went back & cancelled the Amazon order. Thanks for the reminder that we really don't need more "stuff"! :)

[AnnieW625]

i should add though, that a key difference between having kids in the 1950s and having kids now...back then (when not in school) kids just literally played outside all day. by themselves. FIL said that he and his siblings would just leave early in the day and then only come back when it was time for dinner. they were of course unsupervised the whole time. and i'm talking when they were pretty young. the older kids would watch the younger ones/babies. so there was much less need for toys, space inside a home, etc bc kids basically were only there when it was time to sleep or eat. in the stringent standards of today (e.g. not leaving for your toddlers unsupervised for several hours at a time), i think it would be much harder to make do with that little space.

this was me and DH when we were growing up in the 80s as well. I remember being told I could stay outside until the street lights came on during the summer at around 8 pm. I was younger than 10 then, probably 5 or 6 when it started. At that age afterschool one day my brother and a neighbor decided they were going to jump off the top of a 6 ft. fence. My brother did it twice and the third time he fell and hit his fore head when he fell. I or my neighbor friend might have been the oldest ones out there, so 9 or 10. In today's culture the homeowner now would probably berate my brother for what he did or my parents could have sued because the fence was easily climable by a 5/6 yr. old, but honestly they didn't care and were just glad he was okay. After school we could watch a bit of tv, but a lot of the time we were out with our friends as well. We didn't have younger kids to watch most of the time until I was in jr. high, and that was just so my mom could pick up my brother from something so my sister was 2+ at the time. DH didn't have younger siblings though.

[maestramommy]

I think the biggest difference between my childhood and my kids' (because my family had plenty of clutter!) was that we didn't have so many toys. My kids have all the toys I lusted after as a kid. :ROTFLMAO:They go to a lot more bday parties too, with favors, another thing I didn't do. Which is where a lot of the clutter crap comes in.

[sandwish]

A family of four, in San Francisco, that really intrigued me a couple of years ago. Although their focus is on waste, it all still applies. I have tried to incorporate some ideas slowly into ours.

http://zerowastehome.blogspot.com/

[AnnieW625]

I think the biggest difference between my childhood and my kids' (because my family had plenty of clutter!) was that we didn't have so many toys. My kids have all the toys I lusted after as a kid. :ROTFLMAO:They go to a lot more bday parties too, with favors, another thing I didn't do. Which is where a lot of the clutter crap comes in.

:yeahthat: I think I used to go to 3-4 birthdays a year and that was mainly for close friends or the neighbor kids. I rarely went to even my closest friends at school's birthday. Last year she went to 12 birthday parties. At $10-$15 a pop it gets expensive. This year I did invite the whole class because it is a half day of school and there is no daycare so I thought the parents might be off and want or need something to do with the kids. We are having it at the local park by school. Inam hoping next year it gets smaller.

So far this school year she has only been to two parties, with a second on Saturday for two kids. The last party was for two kids as well.

[glbb35]

Wow, great articles as I am taking a break from getting extra toys, books and clothes ready to sell at our church sale this weekend.

We do live in a large house. We have a lot of stuff and a lot stored. As our youngest is moving out of various early stages we are cleaning out and sending things either to my sis who just had a baby or we are selling it. IT was hard at first but now liberating to be moving onto a different stage in our lives. I know we could actually easily all be in an even larger house if we could afford it. While that might sound selfish I agree, you can't send your kids outdoors like we used to do all day and night. Also my boys bring friends home and honestly it is like a frat house sometimes. I can only imagine what it will be like when they are teenagers and in college! I also like the idea of having the home all the kids want to come to so I can see what my kids are up to and keep an eye on them.

I fully expect as we move into the college stage and they get their own homes that we will downsize. I don't ever look at a home as a forever home. Stages in your life change. Eventually all the stairs in this house will get to be too much and eventually the spaces just won't work. I hope to always be able to afford a large living/dining and kitchen area as I want my kids to come home with their kids! We may not keep bedrooms for them all after all you dont' want them living there :)

I am always looking to downsize. Every time DH and I get rid of a major furniture item or something like this I swear a family member passes away and we end up with something "special" that no one else has room for but doesn't want to part with either!

I also love right now that I have a family birthday party this weekend here as we are the on;y house where all the family can gather for a whole event comfortably. I do feel thankful for that!

Would I like to get rid of 80% of the kids toys? yes and I know as they grow older, things get passed down and then passed out to recycle, sell or give away and then they are gone!

Big kudos for those with large families in smaller spaces! your patience must be outstanding!!!!!!

B

DS 03, 04, twins 09, 11

[citymama]

I read the article when it came out and really liked it.

We live in a pretty sparsely furnished 1500 sq foot home (we have stuff in the basement though, full disclosure!). We could probably get rid of some things (read: toys) but everything else is furniture, kitchen things, music or clothing for the most part. We own a lot of art and knick knacks but have put hardly any of it out - having allergies helps keep you minimalist! We used to live in 800 sq feet and no storage as a family of 4 and that was just too tight for us. We would be fine with 1100-1200 sq feet but it's nice to have a little more room. DH and I both work from home so it is nice to not step on each others' toes all the time.

[niccig]

DH wants to downsize when we move, if we move for side business he's hoping will be enough for full-time work. I think it's doable IF the layout is right.

We currently have 1700 sq ft, but 2 bedrooms. I had to study at dining room table and it was just too cramped in that room. We moved dining room table into the large living room and moved desk into dining room. Now there's enough space. So if someone is working/studying from home, a dedicated desk is a must somewhere for me. The kitchen is still too small, but that's liveable. It was not have a work space I could spread out on that was the main issue.

[bisous]

We're a family of five (with potential for growth in the next year) in 1200 square feet and think it is fine. I have many empty cupboards. Part of me dreams of each child having their own bedroom but the reality is that we are truly happy all "squished" in. I'm not sure that I would pick more space if I could. We moved here from my parent's nearly 3000 sq foot home and it was too big and spread out for me. At least with our young family, this is perfect!

I love the bit about professional organizers! I am a ruthless "tosser" which has (truthfully) resulted in some regret through the years but overall I'm happier every day to have my space than to have at hand everything I could possibly need.

I really like living with less.