When the Sheryl Sandberg approach fails

[citymama]

I sobbed reading this article. (I also couldn't breathe for about 20 seconds - you'll know which point of the article that was). What happens when you can't just "lean in."

Please read - it's short and so well-written, by a former NPR war correspondent. As a working mama whose heart breaks each time I travel on work, I can relate (even though I am not a war correspondent)! (ETA: A couple of years ago I passed up a massive promotion so I could maintain my current job which is more flexible, lets me telecommute, and does not involve as much travel. A few of you might recall my angst in making the decision, but it was the right one for me and I don't have regrets.)

When the Sheryl Sandberg Approach Fails (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/11/when-the-sheryl-sandberg-approach-fails.html)
by Mary Louise Kelly

[janine]

Thanks going to read.

I am going through this now (well not literally with what this article describes) - but I can't lean in now and I'm being passed over and it is more devastating than I thought. I literally have a decision, take a dead end job and see my kids at least as much as I do now, or take a different job (same pay) that has more status and potential, but see my kids less.

I want to put my kids first but the idea of all those years in an expensive school, and years of laying out what defined me - all just being tossed over for a dead end for how many years I don't know is a sobering realization and also a bit humiliating. Not wanting to be sober right now. My DH doesn't really understand so it's hard to know where to let this out.

Sorry this probably should have been a BP but it came out here.

[tabegle]

Thanks for sharing. And it made my tear up too.

What's the saying? "You can have it all, just not at the same time."

It's hard, that's for damn sure!

[citymama]

janine, just wanted to offer :grouphug:. the part about DH not understanding is so hard as well, but so true.

[elephantmeg]

wow, I think about this a lot. I'm in a position at work that the logical next step would be managing a unit or being a unit educator. But I know that I don't want to be a manager and in fact have asked to go back to floor nursing and change back to dayshift. I imagine it will take a year or more to make that happen but I'm hopeful. I want to be home more when the kids are and we are all tired of my walking out the door at 6:30 in the evening 3 days a week. It just gets old.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?

My DH and I talk about what it would mean for both of us to "lean in" for a top job. Both of our careers are important and both of our parenting are important.

[citymama]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?

My DH and I talk about what it would mean for both of us to "lean in" for a top job. Both of our careers are important and both of our parenting are important.

I totally agree and my DH would too. But I think the author is right when she observes this and notes that the "mom is the default" - for the outside world, but also for our kids. They adore their dad who is an equal co-parent in every way, but they need their mama for some kind of emotional centering that no one else can provide. It's flattering but also a little intimidating to know how centrally important you are to two little people's emotional well being.

[BayGirl2]

Interesting.
I still haven't read Sandburg's book, but wouldn't she argue that the hard work/commitment this Mom did for the first 20 years of her career is what made her fortunate enough to "lean out" and go to shortened work week? Or maybe I'm still not understanding the definition.

This sentence is what resonated most with me: “Mothers remain the default for everything." Until society/child care workers/bosses/HC professionals/other parents, etc. realize that Dads or other caregivers have as much skin in the game as Moms, we will be held back to some extent. I get really annoyed by this. DH and I both travel, Its always at different times so one parent is always home with the kids. We are both competent as single parents. One of DD's daycare teachers said something like "oh, so sad Mommy needs to be away". Huh? She's never said that when DH is traveling. Our kids were doing fine with a busy travel period, this was not in relation to any behavioral issues, just a general commentary on me as a mother, IMO. DH was insulted too, as it implied he alone was not enough of a parent. We do make a point to note on their charts when one parent is away so they know to call the local parent with emergencies. I did once get a "sick kid" call while traveling but luckily our Director totally understood that DH was on point that day.

I do get what the author is feeling, we all hit that point sometimes where we need to shift things around because we aren't aligned right. It hit me once when DS was 4 mos old and I talked to a executive coach. I blurted out "I don't want to travel weekly" and my body completely relaxed. It was a bold realization that had just surfaced. Maybe I was lucky, and it did take a few months of struggling, but by understanding my priorities I was able to leverage the investment I'd already made in my career to change my path.

[BayGirl2]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?

My DH and I talk about what it would mean for both of us to "lean in" for a top job. Both of our careers are important and both of our parenting are important.
Totally agree with you. I was typing my post below and didn't see yours, but I agree.

I totally agree and my DH would too. But I think the author is right when she observes this and notes that the "mom is the default" - for the outside world, but also for our kids. They adore their dad who is an equal co-parent in every way, but they need their mama for some kind of emotional centering that no one else can provide. It's flattering but also a little intimidating to know how centrally important you are to two little people's emotional well being.
I'm not sure I buy that, at least in an equally shared parenting situation. Sure Mom's offer some things that Dad's don't, but it works the other way around too. Of course I have a different relationship with my kids than my DH does, we're different individuals, but I don't in any way think my relationship defaults as more important or meaningful to them as his is.

But perhaps DH and my level of equality in running the household and parenting is unusual, at least I feel it is from what I read here a lot.

[janine]

I guess I agree that moms are the default. I think this is more common than what some of you ladies may experience.

In my case DH & I have the same schedule, same commute. I make a bit more than him but close enough that we can say it's equal.

I am the default for doctor visits, parent teacher events, planning b'day parties, giving baths, taking care of DC's when they are sick and also laundry and tidying of house. I am the primary parent basically. DH helps of course and thank god (my father's genration did far less I keep telling myself) and the primary with household issues and bigger picture investing.
I was the one to negotiate working from home 1 day knowing that would put my job at risk and possibly stall my career.

I guess I think this is more the norm than the other way around but maybe I'm assuming incorrectly.

PS Thanks citymama for the above :grouphug: needed it!

[citymama]

I'm not sure I buy that, at least in an equally shared parenting situation. Sure Mom's offer some things that Dad's don't, but it works the other way around too. Of course I have a different relationship with my kids than my DH does, we're different individuals, but I don't in any way think my relationship defaults as more important or meaningful to them as his is.

But perhaps DH and my level of equality in running the household and parenting is unusual, at least I feel it is from what I read here a lot.

Maybe it's the mammaries? ;) Seriously, at least in our house there is a mama thing that no papa has. While DH is completely a co-parent and co-housekeeper (I can't imagine a more equitable home/work balance between spouses*), I am definitely the person they want when they are sick or tired. It was the same with me as a kid, and my mom was the one with the traveling, long hours job and my dad was the one who dropped us and picked us up from school, spent way more time taking care of us. While I am in many ways closer to him than to my mom, she is definitely the family "rock."

(*specifically - we both work from home, we both travel for work about the same. he drops both kids to school each day, i pick them up from school each day. he cooks probably 5 nights/week and packs their school lunches but I do all the laundry. ;) He does almost all the taking to swim classes and tennis classes, but I do almost all doctor visits. He does all the groceries and I do all the other (fun) shopping. ;) I read to them more and he does more wrestling and outdoor play. I dunno, I'd say that was pretty equal!)

[BayGirl2]

I guess I agree that moms are the default. I think this is more common than what some of you ladies may experience.

In my case DH & I have the same schedule, same commute. I make a bit more than him but close enough that we can say it's equal.

I am the default for doctor visits, parent teacher events, planning b'day parties, giving baths, taking care of DC's when they are sick and also laundry and tidying of house. I am the primary parent basically. DH helps of course and thank god (my father's genration did far less I keep telling myself) and the primary with household issues and bigger picture investing.
I was the one to negotiate working from home 1 day knowing that would put my job at risk and possibly stall my career.

I guess I think this is more the norm than the other way around but maybe I'm assuming incorrectly.

PS Thanks citymama for the above :grouphug: needed it!

I think what you are describing IS the most common. Those are default roles, and I think it takes a lot of explicit effort for parents/a couple to set their roles up differently. (And for me and DH it takes ongoing effort and revisiting to be sure we're both satisfying our needs an respecting our equal responsibilities.)

However in the article I don't think that's what she's referring to. Its the view of the outside world - the care provider in the story - who called the Mom and assumed she'd be the one to pick up the kid instead of calling Dad first.

[BayGirl2]

Maybe it's the mammaries? ;) Seriously, at least in our house there is a mama thing that no papa has. While DH is completely a co-parent and co-housekeeper (I can't imagine a more equitable home/work balance between spouses*), I am definitely the person they want when they are sick or tired. It was the same with me as a kid, and my mom was the one with the traveling, long hours job and my dad was the one who dropped us and picked us up from school, spent way more time taking care of us. While I am in many ways closer to him than to my mom, she is definitely the family "rock."

(*specifically - we both work from home, we both travel for work about the same. he drops both kids to school each day, i pick them up from school each day. he cooks probably 5 nights/week and packs their school lunches but I do all the laundry. ;) He does almost all the taking to swim classes and tennis classes, but I do almost all doctor visits. He does all the groceries and I do all the other (fun) shopping. ;) I read to them more and he does more wrestling and outdoor play. I dunno, I'd say that was pretty equal!)

Wow, your relationship sounds a lot like mine! Good to know I'm not alone in finding a DH who can and will be equal to me.

IDK, I think there's a difference in the emotional relationship, maybe. But I still feel like the "societal default" should be a parent, not necessarily Mom.

[AnnieW625]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?

My DH and I talk about what it would mean for both of us to "lean in" for a top job. Both of our careers are important and both of our parenting are important.
:yeahthat:
:bighand: right now DH is traveling for work (San Diego through tomorrow, Sacramento next week, and Salinas the following week) and I know for sure it is hard for him to be away from the kids because this usually doesn't happen too often especially this much in one month as it would be for me if I were to have to be away. I don't even see why sex makes a difference. What about all of those men and women who are deployed overseas or those who work in intelligence and their families can have little knowledge of what they are doing? I am sure the fathers feel the same way as the mothers when they are gone. I guess I am just grateful that I know what DH is doing and where he is staying and that he'll have cell service so we can face time before bed. I am also grateful that I can call on DH and he can call on me if for some reason one of us needs to stay home with the kids because they are sick and the other one can't because of work. My kids like us equally whether they are healthy or sick and that means a lot to both of us.

[MamaMolly]

Thanks going to read.

I am going through this now (well not literally with what this article describes) - but I can't lean in now and I'm being passed over and it is more devastating than I thought. I literally have a decision, take a dead end job and see my kids at least as much as I do now, or take a different job (same pay) that has more status and potential, but see my kids less.

I want to put my kids first but the idea of all those years in an expensive school, and years of laying out what defined me - all just being tossed over for a dead end for how many years I don't know is a sobering realization and also a bit humiliating. Not wanting to be sober right now. My DH doesn't really understand so it's hard to know where to let this out.

Sorry this probably should have been a BP but it came out here.

Hugs! I get this in a tiny way. We planned a move and I quit working a few months before Lula was born. I was the one setting up the accounts for the phone and electricity, etc. for the move. One utility wanted my employer's information and I stumbled a bit, explaining it was an international move and I didn't have a current employer, and OH MAMA it was quite a slap in the face to be told 'oh, you're unemployed'. I felt like a total deadbeat. Like you said, it is humiliating.

And the transition of how I defined myself, my identity, going from working and earning a paycheck to being basically a 1950's style house wife was... horrible.

[TxCat]

Great article. Thanks for posting. I got all weepy reading it too! (At the gym no less).


Thanks going to read.

I am going through this now (well not literally with what this article describes) - but I can't lean in now and I'm being passed over and it is more devastating than I thought. I literally have a decision, take a dead end job and see my kids at least as much as I do now, or take a different job (same pay) that has more status and potential, but see my kids less.

I want to put my kids first but the idea of all those years in an expensive school, and years of laying out what defined me - all just being tossed over for a dead end for how many years I don't know is a sobering realization and also a bit humiliating. Not wanting to be sober right now. My DH doesn't really understand so it's hard to know where to let this out.

Sorry this probably should have been a BP but it came out here.

:grouphug:

You are totally not alone in this - I'm going through a similar situation. I'm not sure if I totally understand the concept of "lean in" but it wasn't really possible in my job - after college there were a couple of years of working to save money/figure out what I wanted to do with my life, then 4 years of medical school, then 4 years of residency, then 1 year of fellowship - all the years that theoretically I could have spent "leaning in" were just preparation to get truly started in my career! You could say that I did "lean in" during that time, but it was out of necessity to get from point A to point B - I worked the crazy 80-hour weeks, stayed up 36 hours at a time, but for minimal pay and not for any advantage in my current job.

Now, I work what is typically referred to as a "mommy track" position. And yes, I do have a reasonable schedule on which to see my family and be a wife and a mother, although it's not a truly flexible schedule (I'd love to work 4 days/week instead of 5). But the cost has been harder to swallow than I thought it would be - I definitely feel passed over for certain promotions and advantages in my workplace, even though I'm probably more qualified for those promotions than other physicians around me. I definitely feel like I'm treated like a second-class citizen at work because I'm "mommy track." I've started to put my feelers out for another job, one where I'd have a lot more professional responsibility and probably satisfaction, but the hours would be longer, less predictable and I'd be away from home more. I don't know what the answer is. I think for me, as a working mother, I'm assuming that I'm always going to feel like part of me is "off" - I find it really hard to find professional and personal/family fulfillment at the same time. I've told myself for a few years now that family comes first, and it does, but I guess I wish I would resent my job less for the professional sacrifices that come along with putting family first.

[brittone2]

Great article. Thanks for posting. I got all weepy reading it too! (At the gym no less).



:grouphug:

You are totally not alone in this - I'm going through a similar situation. I'm not sure if I totally understand the concept of "lean in" but it wasn't really possible in my job - after college there were a couple of years of working to save money/figure out what I wanted to do with my life, then 4 years of medical school, then 4 years of residency, then 1 year of fellowship - all the years that theoretically I could have spent "leaning in" were just preparation to get truly started in my career! You could say that I did "lean in" during that time, but it was out of necessity to get from point A to point B - I worked the crazy 80-hour weeks, stayed up 36 hours at a time, but for minimal pay and not for any advantage in my current job.

Now, I work what is typically referred to as a "mommy track" position. And yes, I do have a reasonable schedule on which to see my family and be a wife and a mother, although it's not a truly flexible schedule (I'd love to work 4 days/week instead of 5). But the cost has been harder to swallow than I thought it would be - I definitely feel passed over for certain promotions and advantages in my workplace, even though I'm probably more qualified for those promotions than other physicians around me. I definitely feel like I'm treated like a second-class citizen at work because I'm "mommy track." I've started to put my feelers out for another job, one where I'd have a lot more professional responsibility and probably satisfaction, but the hours would be longer, less predictable and I'd be away from home more. I don't know what the answer is. I think for me, as a working mother, I'm assuming that I'm always going to feel like part of me is "off" - I find it really hard to find professional and personal/family fulfillment at the same time. I've told myself for a few years now that family comes first, and it does, but I guess I wish I would resent my job less for the professional sacrifices that come along with putting family first.

Yeah, in medicine or academia, the whole "leaning in" thing really doesn't seem like it applies in the same way. I haven't read Sandberg's book.

[StantonHyde]

There is just something about wanting your mom when you are sick. I still want my mom!

Yes, it is a societal thing that dad's are expected to be gone and mom's are expected to stay. As one colleague noted, if she stayed home with kids, she was scorned. When a male colleague did the same thing, people praised him for being such an awesome parent???? WHUCK ??????

And as far as husband being equal to wives--we all have different definitions of equal in each family. Some of us don't split certain responsibilities 50/50. I don't feel unequal to my husband in any way. It does bug me that his job is totally inflexible and I am always the default, but that's not his doing--that is just the job requirement. (ER MD, you can't leave your shift and you can't not show up unless you are dead) I can say it makes me feel like less than, but that is me doing that to myself. And who says that having an inflexible or high powered job makes one more equal??

DS talks to me way more about his emotions than he does to his dad. And yet DH is very approachable, reads to him every night (which is the time when DS likes to talk) etc. Not sure why--but when tough times hit, my kids want their mom.

[BayGirl2]

There is just something about wanting your mom when you are sick. I still want my mom!

Yes, it is a societal thing that dad's are expected to be gone and mom's are expected to stay. As one colleague noted, if she stayed home with kids, she was scorned. When a male colleague did the same thing, people praised him for being such an awesome parent???? WHUCK ??????

And as far as husband being equal to wives--we all have different definitions of equal in each family. Some of us don't split certain responsibilities 50/50. I don't feel unequal to my husband in any way. It does bug me that his job is totally inflexible and I am always the default, but that's not his doing--that is just the job requirement. (ER MD, you can't leave your shift and you can't not show up unless you are dead) I can say it makes me feel like less than, but that is me doing that to myself. And who says that having an inflexible or high powered job makes one more equal??

DS talks to me way more about his emotions than he does to his dad. And yet DH is very approachable, reads to him every night (which is the time when DS likes to talk) etc. Not sure why--but when tough times hit, my kids want their mom.

I just want to clarify that this is not about being equal as people and its not really about moms and dads being the same. I feel like the concept is being used in a lot of different ways above.

Here's the definition I use for Equally Shared Parenting and the ideas/perspective behind it:

Our definition of equally shared parenting is this: The purposeful practice of two parents sharing equally in the domains of childraising, housework, breadwinning, and time for self.

Equal sharing doesn’t just happen. It can be hard earned and hard kept. Our society does little to encourage it, and many workplaces are not yet well prepared to honor it. It usually means living more simply, establishing yourself in your career before children arrive, and having the utmost respect for your partner
http://www.equallysharedparenting.com/WhatIs.htm

The authors are pretty clear that its not about a 50/50 split either. Its about each parent putting equal effort AND receiving equal benefits from the relationship with their children.

[LizLemon]

Yeah, in medicine or academia, the whole "leaning in" thing really doesn't seem like it applies in the same way. I haven't read Sandberg's book.

I agree. Although I feel like going to med school and doing a residency, for instance, could be a type of leaning in - putting in your time and working hard early in life so you can have some flexibility to either continue working hard and advance further later or take a career path that allows more work/life balance, or something in between. Haven't read the book either, but from my knowledge of it, this paradigm does seem to have the corporate structure at its center and doesn't seem to apply well to fields that far diverge from it.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?

My DH and I talk about what it would mean for both of us to "lean in" for a top job. Both of our careers are important and both of our parenting are important.

this is EXACTLY what DH keeps saying to me. actually, we had a rather heated discussion about this several weeks ago. i complained that it's so hard for women in my field (engineering) bc it's so male-dominated, and women have to work really hard balance work and family. and he argued that it is not a woman's issue, it's a PARENT issue . well, going from what kind of dad DH is/does, i have to agree. DH does a TON of stuff...he picks up/drops off kids at school, he takes them to swim class, he cooks dinner most days. He cleans a ton. Extremely involved parent, way more than my dad ever was. He is always so crushed when he has to travel for work (about 25% of the time). So his argument was, HE, as a involved parent, struggles with these same issues too.

The thing is though, IMO I really do think that the majority of men are nowhere near as involved a a parent as my DH is, and do not have the same GUILT about missing time w/ their family as women do. i see guys at work who have 3 or 4 kids stay at work pretty late, put in long hours, and they act like it's no big deal at all. many of them have wives who SAH and take care of everything and they're perfectly ok with that. many of the guys who DH works with are pretty "old school" and when a guy mentions having to take a day off for their kids birthday or illness whatnot, they get teased with comments like "can't your wife handle it?" Many still have the old school mentality of how a dad's job is to mainly work and a mom's is to do everything else (even if she works too). it's such a huge contrast bc aside from DH i basically never hear men discuss about how hard it is to balance work and family...yet it seems every other conversation i have with a mom who works is about how hard it is to make time for her kids. I don't know, do men (aside from my DH) actually feel incredibly sad/guilty for traveling away from families and they just don't talk about it?? Would love to hear from other dads. I always got the impression that men don't feel *nearly* as bad for traveling/being away from their families the same way or on the same level women do, and that i guess is what bugs me (that men can have it all, but women can't).

[mommy111]

And, as always, the single woman parent perspective gets lost......
I think its much harder for single woman parents to 'lean in' during the children years, because there is no fall back. Unless of course you're a millionaire and have nannies and housekeepers....but, really, nannes and housekeepers are not parents. I can't travel for work unless I pull my kids out of school and pay for them to go with me. How d you 'lean in' in that situation?

[StantonHyde]

And, as always, the single woman parent perspective gets lost......
I think its much harder for single woman parents to 'lean in' during the children years, because there is no fall back. Unless of course you're a millionaire and have nannies and housekeepers....but, really, nannes and housekeepers are not parents. I can't travel for work unless I pull my kids out of school and pay for them to go with me. How d you 'lean in' in that situation?

Excellent point!!!!

[BayGirl2]

this is EXACTLY what DH keeps saying to me. actually, we had a rather heated discussion about this several weeks ago. i complained that it's so hard for women in my field (engineering) bc it's so male-dominated, and women have to work really hard balance work and family. and he argued that it is not a woman's issue, it's a PARENT issue . well, going from what kind of dad DH is/does, i have to agree. DH does a TON of stuff...he picks up/drops off kids at school, he takes them to swim class, he cooks dinner most days. He cleans a ton. Extremely involved parent, way more than my dad ever was. He is always so crushed when he has to travel for work (about 25% of the time). So his argument was, HE, as a involved parent, struggles with these same issues too.

The thing is though, IMO I really do think that the majority of men are nowhere near as involved a a parent as my DH is, and do not have the same GUILT about missing time w/ their family as women do. i see guys at work who have 3 or 4 kids stay at work pretty late, put in long hours, and they act like it's no big deal at all. many of them have wives who SAH and take care of everything and they're perfectly ok with that. many of the guys who DH works with are pretty "old school" and when a guy mentions having to take a day off for their kids birthday or illness whatnot, they get teased with comments like "can't your wife handle it?" Many still have the old school mentality of how a dad's job is to mainly work and a mom's is to do everything else (even if she works too). it's such a huge contrast bc aside from DH i basically never hear men discuss about how hard it is to balance work and family...yet it seems every other conversation i have with a mom who works is about how hard it is to make time for her kids. I don't know, do men (aside from my DH) actually feel incredibly sad/guilty for traveling away from families and they just don't talk about it?? Would love to hear from other dads. I always got the impression that men don't feel *nearly* as bad for traveling/being away from their families the same way or on the same level women do, and that i guess is what bugs me (that men can have it all, but women can't).
I hear you. Where I am your DH would be in good company with other very involved Dads. Maybe its a regional thing, but around here and in my group of friends its the norm for Dad's to be very involved. In fact the one neighbor Dad who bails every weekend to play golf is kinda frowned upon. That's not the case with everyone I work with, but locally Dads are pretty involved, if not "equally parenting".

I also totally agree this is a PARENT issue in most workplaces, not a gender issue. The gap is greater between moms and childless females than it is between childless men and childless women, IME. TBH I never really ran into a lot of friction as a woman before having kids. I worked in male dominated fields and may have been the only female in a meeting, but I had the opportunity to prove myself like everyone else. I never thought I was "Leaning In", I just thought I was managing my career like anyone else would. The major gap/challenges started when we had kids. I think this parenting gap is the most overlooked thing right now, and all the focus goes toward it being a female issue which is not productive and really unfair to dads and single parents.

In our state we get paid parental leave for both parents. It was important to me/DH that he take advantage of that to be home with each baby. Not just because he's an involved Dad, but because he was a Manager and it sets a good example for others in terms of balance and parenting roles. I hear from a lot of men (in and out of CA) that they couldn't/wouldn't use parental leave for 6 weeks because it would hurt their careers. That perception won't change until men and women in the workforce at senior levels start to openly admit they are involved parents.

[StantonHyde]

The authors are pretty clear that its not about a 50/50 split either. Its about each parent putting equal effort AND receiving equal benefits from the relationship with their children.

mmmm, see, I think it has to do with putting 50% into the family as a whole. So that includes earning money, doing house and yard chores, child care, vacation planning, planning for and taking care of various family needs (clothes for the kids, schools, doctor visits etc). There is also the idea of what skills each person brings to the family. I am the family planner. If DH had his way, we would all sit around eating take out pizza and watching Star Trek!! He can't plan social/activities to save his soul. Now planning money--I can't balance my check book using Quicken (pathetic I know) and he loves poring over investments etc etc. So I plan the vacations and he packs the car. He works out the savings and I just make sure I don't spend too much. I am the one the kids talk to about emotional issues. Do I want to? Hell, no. I would be thrilled if DS went to DH with his sex questions. But he doesn't, he comes to me.

If you want to just look at 50% parenting, then I should have married someone at the same earning level which would have meant we both worked FT and took care of kids. Instead I married someone who earned 5x what I earned. I had no desire to be the kind of person I would have to be to get to the VP level in my career field. Very little work/life balance, lots of political ass-kissing, just lots of fake, fake, fake. I don't mind playing the game, but at that level it just skeeves me out. (different fields have different dynamics--this is just hospital based health care for me)

I would have been happy to keep working FT in a job I loved and making a big difference in the department I managed and the larger organization. (18K employees) But I couldn't do it by myself with kids and I didn't think about the total inflexibility of DH's job till after we had kids. DH is great in that when he is off work, he is there for kids and it is awesome on the days I work and he has off or when we both have off.

And yet--DH is not bothered when he has to work extra long hours and miss playdates etc. Yes, he would be bothered very much if he missed birthdays or big milestones. And he does miss us the once or twice a year he travels. But not like me. I feel AWFUL if I am not there for the doctor's appointments and every little thing. Sure, there are plenty of things I skip (lip sync contest at summer camp-pass). And I get really, really ticked when DH just assumes I will be doing childcare--and I let him know that I am not the automatic default. But he would be fine getting sitters for them for longer periods of time. Not me. I want to be there for them. Largely because I know what it is like to have one parent who is NEVER there--bad. And thus I require that DH shows up quite a bit, and he does. I will turn myself into a pretzel to make things happen--DH not so much.

Meanwhile, my SIL travels 2 weeks out of every month and flies her kids out to see her on weekends. My brother also has a high powered career and he travels alot too. Thank God for their awesome nanny. She is a wonderful influence on my nieces. Sometimes it eats at SIL but not enough to make her change her job. My brother is definitely the primary parent. She values the external feedback from working more than she does her relationship with her kids. I absolutely get a great sense of satisfaction and self actualization from WOH. I am not cut out to stay at home--tried it and it was a bad idea for me. But I don't understand men or women who place their jobs above all else. My dad did and neither me nor my brother have a good relationship with him. I have a friend whose dad was willing to put in long hours during the week but the weekends were his family time and he was totally devoted to his kids.

This is all a very long way of saying: different strokes for different folks. In the end, what matters is that kids feel loved and valued and that mom and dad are satisfied with life.

[StantonHyde]

That perception won't change until men and women in the workforce at senior levels start to openly admit they are involved parents.


This is so true--and yet so sad that this is something that has to be "admitted" ??????? Sigh.

[BayGirl2]

mmmm, see, I think it has to do with putting 50% into the family as a whole. So that includes earning money, doing house and yard chores, child care, vacation planning, planning for and taking care of various family needs (clothes for the kids, schools, doctor visits etc). There is also the idea of what skills each person brings to the family. I am the family planner.......
....
Meanwhile, my SIL travels 2 weeks out of every month and flies her kids out to see her on weekends. My brother also has a high powered career and he travels alot too. Thank God for their awesome nanny. She is a wonderful influence on my nieces. Sometimes it eats at SIL but not enough to make her change her job. My brother is definitely the primary parent. She values the external feedback from working more than she does her relationship with her kids. I absolutely get a great sense of satisfaction and self actualization from WOH. I am not cut out to stay at home--tried it and it was a bad idea for me. But I don't understand men or women who place their jobs above all else. My dad did and neither me nor my brother have a good relationship with him. I have a friend whose dad was willing to put in long hours during the week but the weekends were his family time and he was totally devoted to his kids.

This is all a very long way of saying: different strokes for different folks. In the end, what matters is that kids feel loved and valued and that mom and dad are satisfied with life.

The bold actually is what they mean in the book/website I listed on Equally Shared Parenting. Both parents contributing in a way that makes sense for them. But it's done thoughtfully, not something you just fall into.


You've brought up your SIL in other posts and somehow it always rubs me the wrong way. The part in bold, specifically, is what bothers me. I obviously don't know you or her personally, so maybe she is evil and selfish and you are right. But the general belief that a mom (or Dad) who cares about her career cares less about her kids is one of the stereotypes that causes the problems we're talking about here. Why can't a mom care about both, and still be a good parent? Especially since she knows the kids are well cared for by another parent and competent caregivers? IDK, hearing those kind of judgements just feel to me like fueling the fire against women.

[niccig]

What I don't like about the "lean-in" conversation is that it assumes all women want to/should be a high-flyer in their field. Not everyone wants that life.

I felt like a failure in my pre-kids work as felt not living up to potential of doing something amazing. I realised after some therapy that those expectations were not my own. I do want to work and do well in my field, and I'm retraining for a new career, but I don't want to or need to be the best/expert/high flyer. I'm going to lean-in as much as I want to, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[twowhat?]

What I don't like about the "lean-in" conversation is that it assumes all women want to/should be a high-flyer in their field. Not everyone wants that life.

I felt like a failure in my pre-kids work as felt not living up to potential of doing something amazing. I realised after some therapy that those expectations were not my own. I do want to work and do well in my field, and I'm retraining for a new career, but I don't want to or need to be the best/expert/high flyer. I'm going to lean-in as much as I want to, and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's me! :wavey: I don't care what I do in my job (even if it doesn't utilize my advanced degree) so long as it makes sufficient money and allows me enough time with my kids (which is of course a tricky balance). In fact, our plan as a couple is for DH to find a higher-paying job (not just for the pay - a higher paying job is what DH wants to be more intellectually stimulated) and then for me to find a lower-paying one that doesn't require me to travel for 2 reasons: 1) I don't WANT to travel and 2) it would allow DH to do something he loves, which in turn makes him a happier father even if he's away from the house more.

My DH is more involved than a lot of Dads but I do think that being away from the kids bothers him less than it bothers me. Example: he will choose to skip bday parties because he doesn't like them. I on the other hand want to take my kids to bday parties to watch them interact and have fun because it gives me joy (i.e. for him, that joy isn't worth sitting through an event that he just doesn't enjoy, LOL). It also doesn't bother him to skip doctor's appts, etc. But for me, it's almost gut-wrenching if I have to miss those. It doesn't make him care any less about his kids though...he always asks about how the doctor's appt, etc went...he simply isn't bothered to have to miss it because he knows that I'm willing and available to handle it. He is, however, bothered if he had to miss something really big (like DD2's surgery - he made sure to take a whole week off of work for that). I do think there's a general male vs female difference here (of course there are exceptions).

I think to myself that if the roles were reversed, and I was the one with the higher power job and DH was the one who had the lower power job, less money, and more flexibility to take on child care duties, I would HATE IT. Both DH and I started in this field at virtually the same time, and he's at a Director level while I'm nowhere near a director level. Some of that I DO believe is because I'm female, and some of it is because I simply didn't have to drive to strive for that position.

I'll lean, but I'll angle that lean away from my career and towards my kids because I don't have the ambition to try to do both. More power to those who do can and do want both, though! :)

[janine]

I echo TxCat's sentiment that I'm not even 100% sure if I'm using the "lean in" term correctly but personally I'm not aiming to be a high flyer or CEO either. I just want a role that provides respect/dignity and allows me to make choices that are reflective of the goals I set for myself most of my adult life starting with the decision of where to go go college, or to pursue grad school,etc. I did marry in my mid-30's so that could be part of it. I had thought just making enough money to have extra income was all that it was about for me too - but when I saw a door close and it hit me in the stomach I realized my job/career is still tied to my identity.

So I interpret lean in to mean "going for it" rather than holding back knowing the mommy track will help the big family picture. And also knowing that by not "going for it" aggressively and raising your hand - others' will assume you are on the mommy track (because you leave on time regularly,etc.).

I agree the single working mom's view gets lost and they have it the hardest - I really admire single moms.

And lastly on the default parent vs societal views (ie why didn't the dads on the blackhawk struggle with the same internal conflict) - how can we separate the two. If there are default roles in your household (mom stays home when kids are sick, etc) then isn't it logical to assume the person calling the mom makes the same assumption based on their household experience and therefore doesn't call the dad who most would believe has a default parent closer to home? Yes there are exceptions but in most dual income families, the mother remains the default parent/contact/person who must decide between home and work.

[123LuckyMom]

What I don't like about the "lean-in" conversation is that it assumes all women want to/should be a high-flyer in their field. Not everyone wants that life.

This is true for me, too. I was on the fast track for a high powered, high paying career, but it just wasn't what I wanted. I knew I was smart and capable. I didn't need to have typical success to prove that to myself or others, and I wasn't willing to make the relationship sacrifices that that sort of life would have entailed. My ambitions lay in building a strong home life-- a healthy marriage and children who knew they were at the absolute center of my world. That is NOT to say that a parent of either gender can't do that and have a high powered career, but my experience growing up was such that I felt I couldn't.

I followed my value system, and I've been very successful so far at fulfilling MY ambitions. I "leaned in" (haven't read the book) and transitioned my career even before I was married to allow myself time and energy to meet the right person and start a family. As it turned out, the wonderful man I married thought he was farther removed from the gender divides of his culture than he actually was, and so I became a 50's housewife as well as a SAHM! I do all the cooking, cleaning, and household management. I struggle with that, because I never wanted to be a cook and a housekeeper, but as I gain competence, I mind it less and less.

I do work from my home part time and earn some money, and when my kids are both in school, I intend to build up a part time private practice or take on another part time job in addition to the work I already do, but my ambitions remain centered around my family life. I think that's a valid choice for any human being, male or female.

[brittone2]

Well, in the way I understand the definition without having read the book, I guess I didn't lean in. In high school I decided between premed and PT. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted the lifestyle of a physician once I had kids, but frankly I wasn't sure I even wanted kids at that point in my life. I opted to major in physical therapy, which I perceived as more family friendly. I also liked the idea of doing my bachelor's and master's in 5 years and then getting started on my career.

I didn't think I'd SAH, and would have laughed at that idea for a long time, but then we went through IF and it really crystallized for me what I wanted. I left my job while we were still ttc, because trying to juggle IF treatmens with working in EI where I was driving all over for my job (my RE's office was 1-1.5 hrs from some of my clients) was making me crazy. We later decided to HS our kids, which has become my 2nd career I guess ;)

All of that to say that had I "leaned in" to certain other careers, I am not sure I ever would have had the option to "lean out" to SAH/HS my kids. Had I taken on more loans for something like med school, etc wouldn't have been an option. I got lucky that my career choice still gave me the opportunity to find the right fit for me, and for my family. It could have gone differently, and it might not have been an option. But how are young women supposed to know what path they will take in life? My feelings really changed in ways I couldn't have imagined once I had kids. I guess I need to read the book, but it seems like the idea of "leaning in" is to keep options open, etc. but it seems like "leaning in" to certain careers sometimes results in not having the option to dial back.

eta: DH had friend in grad school who had a strong female mentor in her undergrad institution. This young woman decided that she really wanted to teach at a 4 year institution. I think she knew she didn't want the grind that teaching at a PhD granting institution can be for many professors, and didn't want that when she had a family. Her advisor *flipped* his lid, and essentially told her to just leave the group if that's what she wanted. I think she "mastered out" of the PhD program (she was essentially forced out for not wanting to be on the fast track). I completely understand how academia can be, and why this guy saw it as an insult to his own work and his lab to have someone there who didn't want what everyone else wanted. Academia, especially in the physical sciences for women, isn't always a place where "leaning in" is going to offer up a chance to lean out a bit later. Lots of women make the choice to lean in to an academic career anyway, and it works out for them, obviously. But I hated seeing her admonished for choosing something that aligned with where she wanted to go.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I also totally agree this is a PARENT issue in most workplaces, not a gender issue. The gap is greater between moms and childless females than it is between childless men and childless women, IME. TBH I never really ran into a lot of friction as a woman before having kids. I worked in male dominated fields and may have been the only female in a meeting, but I had the opportunity to prove myself like everyone else. I never thought I was "Leaning In", I just thought I was managing my career like anyone else would. The major gap/challenges started when we had kids. I think this parenting gap is the most overlooked thing right now, and all the focus goes toward it being a female issue which is not productive and really unfair to dads and single parents.

In our state we get paid parental leave for both parents. It was important to me/DH that he take advantage of that to be home with each baby. Not just because he's an involved Dad, but because he was a Manager and it sets a good example for others in terms of balance and parenting roles. I hear from a lot of men (in and out of CA) that they couldn't/wouldn't use parental leave for 6 weeks because it would hurt their careers. That perception won't change until men and women in the workforce at senior levels start to openly admit they are involved parents.

:yeahthat: x 1000, you bring up SO many good points!! Yes DH and I agreed that there really isn't much of a gap between men and women WITHOUT KIDS...it's once kids are in the mix that there is a huge disparity. The thing is, i really think that in general, even now in 2013, women are expected to take the lion's share of childrearing/household duties (or maybe it's just where i live..i live in a fairly conservative area). As a working mom, I can't really compete against male counterparts who have SAH spouses handling most/all of the child/house stuff, who can stay late, work more hours, travel more, etc. I totally accept that I will be mommy-tracked and I am fine with that. However, it still irks me that so many women are somehow FORCED to mommy-tracked, because they just don't have the support (from their spouse, workplace, whatever). Unlike men, most women don't have a spouse with really flexible hours or who is a SAHP, so in order for women to be able to rise up men have to make sacrifices as well, and I just don't see that happening as often as it should IMO.

And I totally agree, moms and dads at the higher levels really need to set an example. I think dads as well need to stop worrying about how it looks that they take parental leave or have to take time off to take their kids to dr appointments. I hate how dads get to brag about going golfing this or that weekend, yet women get the guilt trip for traveling without their children.

[SnuggleBuggles]

What I don't like about the "lean-in" conversation is that it assumes all women want to/should be a high-flyer in their field. Not everyone wants that life.

I felt like a failure in my pre-kids work as felt not living up to potential of doing something amazing. I realised after some therapy that those expectations were not my own. I do want to work and do well in my field, and I'm retraining for a new career, but I don't want to or need to be the best/expert/high flyer. I'm going to lean-in as much as I want to, and there's nothing wrong with that.

In one of the other Lean In threads, I said that I found the author condescending in her interviews and I think this is why. I felt like an underachiever that didn't value herself enough.

To be fair though, she did say that not everyone wants to lean into the board room and used examples about how it works in situations like advocating for your kids- how to lean into the principal's office, for example. Of course, to be honest, she'd already rubbed me wrong by this point and her examples of leaning in outside of the boardroom setting didn't do much for me. I have no plans of reading her book; I just don't feel like it applies to me.

[BayGirl2]

Liberation means we each have the freedom to choose the path we want to be on for ourselves/our families.
That means its just as legitimate to choose to be a SAHM or a part time working mom giving the minimum to a job as it is to choose to set lofty career goals and strive toward them while your partner takes on the majority of household responsibilities.

These threads every few months seem to wind into a conversation of people saying they don't want a competitive career path anyway. That's an acceptable choice, but in that case I don't think Sandberg, and other high level executives are really speaking to you. Some women DO want to be a CEO, or have a senior leadership role, for all the right reasons (they feel its their calling, its how they contribute to society, its a long term goal they set) and its not just because they need validation from an outside source or are lacking the right priorities. Every time the conversation comes up I feel like there's a dollup of judgement for those of us who are/want to be on the career path. How exactly do non-career-committed women think parents are going to get more rights in the workplace if there aren't others willing to get to the top and open things up? When I was starting out in my career I read guidance from people like Sandberg and that really helped me to sort out that being a CEO was a goal for me, as was having children and raising them consciously. These kids of messages from leaders are very necessary, and if they don't provide a guide map for everyone that's ok, there are plenty of home-making books and role models that don't really fit the role I am choosing, I just browse past them.

The point is that we (society) need to start opening our minds and allowing for a wide range of roles for men and women in parenting. This is better for all of us - it gives us choices. It also benefits same sex parents, single parents, and SAHPs. I just see it as one more kind of diversity that our society is opening up to.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Liberation means we each have the freedom to choose the path we want to be on for ourselves/our families.
That means its just as legitimate to choose to be a SAHM or a part time working mom giving the minimum to a job as it is to choose to set lofty career goals and strive toward them while your partner takes on the majority of household responsibilities.

These threads every few months seem to wind into a conversation of people saying they don't want a competitive career path anyway. That's an acceptable choice, but in that case I don't think Sandberg, and other high level executives are really speaking to you. Some women DO want to be a CEO, or have a senior leadership role, for all the right reasons (they feel its their calling, its how they contribute to society, its a long term goal they set) and its not just because they need validation from an outside source or are lacking the right priorities. Every time the conversation comes up I feel like there's a dollup of judgement for those of us who are/want to be on the career path. How exactly do non-career-committed women think parents are going to get more rights in the workplace if there aren't others willing to get to the top and open things up?

(snipped)

The point is that we (society) need to start opening our minds and allowing for a wide range of roles for men and women in parenting. This is better for all of us - it gives us choices. It also benefits same sex parents, single parents, and SAHPs. I just see it as one more kind of diversity that our society is opening up to.

:bighand: :yeahthat: :thumbsup: Perfectly said!! Exactly what I was thinking. It really is all about choices and IMO women do not have the same choices/freedoms as men right now, and that is something we need to work on. Sure, many women (including me) are okay with mommy-tracked jobs that come second to their spouses..but not all women want that. I think the point is that for those who DO want high-powered careers and have a family it is typically much harder than it is for a man bc of the difference in expectations that society/employers/people have for mothers vs. fathers.

[BayGirl2]

:bighand: :yeahthat: :thumbsup: Perfectly said!! Exactly what I was thinking. It really is all about choices and IMO women do not have the same choices/freedoms as men right now, and that is something we need to work on. Sure, many women (including me) are okay with mommy-tracked jobs that come second to their spouses..but not all women want that. I think the point is that for those who DO want high-powered careers and have a family it is typically much harder than it is for a man bc of the difference in expectations that society/employers/people have for women vs. men.

Thank you. Sorry I tend to get riled up in these conversations...[then I think maybe I should be one of those posters who disappears for a while]....
I am fortunate that I have a DH, MIL, parents, kids who totally get my career goals and don't question my prioritization of my kids. I feel way more judged online though so I feel the need to speak up here.

This is a huge issue for same-sex parents as well. I know a couple where one Dad decided to stay at home with their daughter while one worked, typical SAH/WOH roles. He was Latino in heritage and really had a hard time with taking on what is perceived to be a less valuable role. I mean really hard, needed therapy, affected the marital relationship kind of issues. It wasn't the gay thing or the 2 Dads thing, it was the role he chose that contradicted a traditional view Male Breadwinner. I think those issues are becoming more common as people are more accepting of same sex parents/gays in general but don't really know how to fit everyone into a box.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Thank you. Sorry I tend to get riled up in these conversations...[then I think maybe I should be one of those posters who disappears for a while]....
I am fortunate that I have a DH, MIL, parents, kids who totally get my career goals and don't question my prioritization of my kids. I feel way more judged online though so I feel the need to speak up here.

.

I totally hear you. My DH is super understanding as well as my parents and ILs and I am really lucky to have that. A few weeks ago I had a super busy week (came home at 7or 8pm each night) and DH took care of everything (kids, dinner, laundry, etc) without complaining. I felt really guilty at first...one, for not getting to see my kids as much, and also for having DH pick up all the slack that week. But you know what, I am just so TIRED of feeling guilty for things that dads do all.the.freaking.time. My DH pointed out that he travels 1-2 weeks out of the month and during that week everything with the house/kids falls to me, so it is only fair and it's the least he can do. And you know what, he is right. It doesn't make him a bad parent to not see his kids for a week, so why should it make me bad for only seeing them around bedtime for a week?

[Philly Mom]

Liberation means we each have the freedom to choose the path we want to be on for ourselves/our families.
That means its just as legitimate to choose to be a SAHM or a part time working mom giving the minimum to a job as it is to choose to set lofty career goals and strive toward them while your partner takes on the majority of household responsibilities.

These threads every few months seem to wind into a conversation of people saying they don't want a competitive career path anyway. That's an acceptable choice, but in that case I don't think Sandberg, and other high level executives are really speaking to you. Some women DO want to be a CEO, or have a senior leadership role, for all the right reasons (they feel its their calling, its how they contribute to society, its a long term goal they set) and its not just because they need validation from an outside source or are lacking the right priorities. Every time the conversation comes up I feel like there's a dollup of judgement for those of us who are/want to be on the career path. How exactly do non-career-committed women think parents are going to get more rights in the workplace if there aren't others willing to get to the top and open things up? When I was starting out in my career I read guidance from people like Sandberg and that really helped me to sort out that being a CEO was a goal for me, as was having children and raising them consciously. These kids of messages from leaders are very necessary, and if they don't provide a guide map for everyone that's ok, there are plenty of home-making books and role models that don't really fit the role I am choosing, I just browse past them.

The point is that we (society) need to start opening our minds and allowing for a wide range of roles for men and women in parenting. This is better for all of us - it gives us choices. It also benefits same sex parents, single parents, and SAHPs. I just see it as one more kind of diversity that our society is opening up to.

:yeahthat: Very well said.

[Philly Mom]

Thank you. Sorry I tend to get riled up in these conversations...[then I think maybe I should be one of those posters who disappears for a while]....
I am fortunate that I have a DH, MIL, parents, kids who totally get my career goals and don't question my prioritization of my kids. I feel way more judged online though so I feel the need to speak up here.

This is a huge issue for same-sex parents as well. I know a couple where one Dad decided to stay at home with their daughter while one worked, typical SAH/WOH roles. He was Latino in heritage and really had a hard time with taking on what is perceived to be a less valuable role. I mean really hard, needed therapy, affected the marital relationship kind of issues. It wasn't the gay thing or the 2 Dads thing, it was the role he chose that contradicted a traditional view Male Breadwinner. I think those issues are becoming more common as people are more accepting of same sex parents/gays in general but don't really know how to fit everyone into a box.

I work in a law firm of women and we often network with other women. This is a constant topic of conversation because most of us have families of some sort, whether it is young children, grown children, aging parents, etc. For those of us with spouses, we also talk about the support we get for our choices or lack there of. Of women partners in big law firms, many are divorced at least once, especially among the generation of 50 year olds+, and when you talk to them, it is often because they did not receive support at home or their spouse felt threatened by their success.

I know I am lucky as you are to have a supportive spouse (though I am the one who gets calls from school - though I prefer to be the point person), and a supportive family, who may not live nearby, wants both DH and I to be happy in what we do and accomplish at work as well as home.

Also, I hope you don't disappear because I appreciate your perspective and you are articulating thoughts that I am having a hard time putting down.

[Kindra178]

We have no family nearby. All of our help is paid. Does anyone else feel that to get a fast tracked job that one's spouse has to have a "mommy tracked' position? That is the case for me. I was on a path to be very successful but took a mom job when ds1 was 1. Then the twins came . . . I am at the same job but took it has a taken an even more mommy tracked turn. I goto 95% of doctor appointments, do all the summer camp, vacation and social planning, activity planning, school volunterring, 100% of the food shopping and prep, etc. DH is a great h, but he works very long hours and is limited as what he can do. I do think part of my feeling this way has to do with the fact that I have three kids, but my former job required signifnicant travel and longer hours.

[BayGirl2]

I work in a law firm of women and we often network with other women. This is a constant topic of conversation because most of us have families of some sort, whether it is young children, grown children, aging parents, etc. For those of us with spouses, we also talk about the support we get for our choices or lack there of. Of women partners in big law firms, many are divorced at least once, especially among the generation of 50 year olds+, and when you talk to them, it is often because they did not receive support at home or their spouse felt threatened by their success.

I know I am lucky as you are to have a supportive spouse (though I am the one who gets calls from school - though I prefer to be the point person), and a supportive family, who may not live nearby, wants both DH and I to be happy in what we do and accomplish at work as well as home.

Also, I hope you don't disappear because I appreciate your perspective and you are articulating thoughts that I am having a hard time putting down.
Thanks, I appreciate your comment. Sometimes the BBB feels very SAHM/mommy-track centric - but other times it doesn't.

The part about a lot being divorced really doesn't surprise me. This issue contributed to the end of my first marriage, which started when I was young (23) and only lasted a year. There were other issues too of course, but at that point I was really starting to align my goals and set a vision for myself. I wanted to "Lean In" with my career and also go to grad school. EDH just didn't get it, he didn't have that kind of drive and was like "whatever". I knew then that although he might tolerate me going to school or working long hours he'd never really understand it or give me the moral support I needed to live up to my dreams, and I'd likely end up resentful of that. At 23 that was a hard road to look at, and I'm glad for both of us that we ended things. Respect for each others chosen paths is an important factor in my marriage to DH, and if I hadn't prioritized that pre-kids I may not be in the well balanced career/life situation I'm in now.

[StantonHyde]

You've brought up your SIL in other posts and somehow it always rubs me the wrong way. The part in bold, specifically, is what bothers me. I obviously don't know you or her personally, so maybe she is evil and selfish and you are right. But the general belief that a mom (or Dad) who cares about her career cares less about her kids is one of the stereotypes that causes the problems we're talking about here. Why can't a mom care about both, and still be a good parent? Especially since she knows the kids are well cared for by another parent and competent caregivers? IDK, hearing those kind of judgements just feel to me like fueling the fire against women.

SIL is not evil. The bottom line is this--at the end of our lives, it is our family that matters most. Not what work we did. Maybe for a few exceptional individuals that will be the case--but I would wager that their children would rather have had a present parent. Your kids are still young. It is actually easier to work more when they are in day care IMO because they have such wonderful care givers and they are in such a nurturing place. (or nanny or whatever) When they start school, it changes. They are not nurtured during the day. They come home needing that nurturing. And they need it from a PARENT. There is only one person in the world who can be mom and that's me. Only one person in the world who can be dad and that's DH. Yes, grandparents are awesome but they aren't mom and dad.

As kids get older, they need to build relationships--not just child care tasks--with their parents. And its quantity, not quality time. Kids don't spill their innermost fears on schedule. Some parents are lucky for a long time. Their kids are easy sleepers and develop in a typical fashion and they are healthy. Then maybe those kids hit trouble in adolescence and they NEED their parents. Not anybody else. As the the author said--You hit the wall.In my case, DS was born early and he has dyslexia and anxiety. He needs DH and me. Not anybody else.

And maybe the kids never have issues. But then there is the question--how strong is the bond and the relationship with parents if the parents aren't present? And believe me, I have no problem leaving my kids to take an adults only vacation for a week or more. My kids are with sitters every week for date night. Maybe there are other ways to build bonds with kids besides physical presence and I just don't see it.

But that's my bottom line--kids need both parents physically and emotionally present in their lives. And to that end--we need workplaces where people are not expected to work 80 hours a week. That goes for everybody--moms and dads and people without kids. It is redefining what it means to be successful.

[alexsmommy]

I really don't understand why these are all women's issues. Did those men on that Blackhawk not have similar feelings?




DH hit the wall two years ago after a job loss. In order to avoid a large financial gap, he took a great opportunity (career wise and financially)... out of state. He realized within two weeks being away from the boys (and me) that much just wasn't for him. It made us all look at all of those big questions again, career vs family vs lifestyle etc. It was a good check in for us as a family to remind us what really mattered to us. We had to find better balance to meet all of our needs, then look more closely at the wants.

[squimp]

Thank you Bay Girl. I have been wanting to reply to these threads, but have not found the words. We all have our stories. I actually found it hard to relate to this woman's story and reaction (the one who hit the wall). Honestly, I relate more to Sheryl Sandberg, but then her story is also just another anecdote, which people interpret to need to speak for all women, or all working women. A part of our problem is the reaction of other women, and seeing the reaction to Sheryl Sandberg's story here really illustrates that to me.

I did lean in and it worked for me. Leaning in gave me the credentials, competence and flexibility to work part time and still have a really solid and productive career. I'm not in law or some technology or other jobs that seem to expect you to devote your whole self to your job. So my situation is not for everyone but whose is? Thankfully I know lots of women who are taking similar paths in research or academia and making it work.

I advise graduate students, and a number of women come to me and say they don't want to do this or that because they want a family. These are the planner types. They don't want to go into research or academia. It is hard to advise them because if you get a PhD, I don't know what kind of job you will get if you aren't willing to do those things. And it also really bothers me that somehow those things are viewed as incompatible. But somehow they seem this way to many women, with so many barriers it is difficult to count them. I have been alternately bashed by men and women for working and for working part-time, and the hardest blows came from women. If I had focused on the barriers I would have probably given up long ago.

[BayGirl2]

SIL is not evil. The bottom line is this--at the end of our lives, it is our family that matters most. Not what work we did. Maybe for a few exceptional individuals that will be the case--but I would wager that their children would rather have had a present parent.

I don't disagree with most of your post, and I understand that children's needs ebb and flow with age and needs for parental time are dynamic. But I do think your statement is bold is YOUR view, not necessarily EVERYONE's view, of what will matter when we die.

I do often have that discussion with myself - what will matter to me at my own funeral. Of course raising my children is top, but success in my career is not at the bottom or irrelevant. For some people their work is a huge part of what they feel they contribute by being on this planet - not necessarily because they are super gifted or work at non-profits, its just how they feel. Active child rearing lasts about 20 years of our lives, the first 20 years we are children, that leaves another 40-60 years on this planet to contribute. If the only thing I contributed out of my 100 years was raising children I do think I'll have regrets. That's not to say time with our kids at certain stages won't take priority at that moment in time (and it does often trump work sometimes), but it won't be my only priority over the longer term.

[Philly Mom]

I want to add that "leaning in" does not equal not being an active, involved parent. If the argument against leaning in is that you can't be focused on your career and children, I disagree. I feel lucky to have amazing female role models in my life who are wonderful mothers and lawyers. The have leaned in, in their own way, and built impressive careers and impressive children who love them deeply. Yes, there are women who lean in and ignore their children, as there are lots of men who do the same (though no one seems to punish them). However, we need to create a society for women and men to lean in together and parent together. DH just leaned out a little bit (left big 4 accounting) so that I can continue to lean in. Neither of us will be the number one person in our field and we are both ok with that, but we do good work and are creating things both at work and home. We are able to do that because we are working in organizations that encourage good hard work combined with love of family.

As an aside, I am not sure I am a fan of Sandberg, but do appreciate the concept of leaning in. I also admire what Sandberg has accomplished, and hope that she is actively trying to promote women within Facebook, even those who may need a slightly alternative schedule.

[StantonHyde]

[QUOTE=BayGirl2;3748675]I do often have that discussion with myself - what will matter to me at my own funeral. Of course raising my children is top, but success in my career is not at the bottom or irrelevant. QUOTE]

I have 2 significant role models in this regard. My mom did an awesome job of it. She got married and had kids young. She had a base education and worked PT when we were younger. Then she went back to school when I was 12 and she was 35 to get a BSN and an MSN. She worked her butt off and we picked up the slack around the house--it was good for us and for her. She got a job as a professor when I was 19. Then she went back for her PhD while teaching full time. She had a wonderful 25 year career as a nursing professor and touched many, many lives. She also took the time to care for us, to maintain wonderful relationships with us, and she was awesome all the way around. She loved her job and what she did and the praise she got for her work. But it didn't define her. She was happy to retire and spend time with her family. Sadly, she died 2 months after she retired.

My dad was an MD who worked 12-14 hour days plus weekends. When he had time off, he spent it by himself out of the house. He missed most of our lives--he was busy saving other lives. And, yes, his patients admired him and will tell all sorts of stories about how amazing and caring he was. I never met that man. He was so busy caring about other people and getting external gratification that he never took the time to build a relationship with his children. When he retired he was seriously unhinged and suicidal because he had nothing left. He was praised his whole life for working so hard. But then he was literally left with nothing because his work was the only definition he had for himself.

Now I realize that the moms on this board (in fact most sane people of this generation!) will not choose to live like my dad. I love working. Absolutely love it. I get a great sense of personal being, of self-actualization from my job. Before kids, I happily put in 60+ hours a week. It was fun. But now I have seen what others go through at retirement and how work fits into their overall life then. DH and I talk about what we will do. In fact, we will keep working in various capacities because it gives us such purpose. But now is the time to "lean in" with my kids. Children are not expendable. And yes, it would be great to be able to do everything 100%. I can't do that--I like my sleep too much!

You can work hard but you still have to be there for your kids. The same goes for men and women. Lots of men, and some women, don't get this till its too late. Which is sad.

[ast96]

Here's my issue: whether she was the one called first or not, if I was the author, whenever I found out that my child wasn't breathing well and had to go to the hospital while I was in Baghdad, I would have had the same crisis. It wouldn't have mattered if my husband was called first, if he handled it all, if my child was fine... I would still have an issue with it all. It would still make me question leaving my child while working half a world away.

Now, I am not in the market for a crazy paced career. I hated going to offices when I did. I want to write, like the author in the end. But I can understand wanting that job, and wanting that career. The part about being torn is just very hard for me. What is the answer?

[squimp]

I understand her visceral reaction. I have had minor versions of that happen to me while I was on travel and so I can absolutely relate. But if she had chosen even not to quit after that, I would not judge her. I think many people would though.

[niccig]

I For those of us with spouses, we also talk about the support we get for our choices or lack there of. Of women partners in big law firms, many are divorced at least once, especially among the generation of 50 year olds+, and when you talk to them, it is often because they did not receive support at home or their spouse felt threatened by their success.



Choosing a supportive spouse isn't the first thing people consider when they get married, but they should. My sister was leaning in, her DH was leaning out and wanted to do least amount of work possible and resented time she wasn't at home. They got divorced 18 months later. I think it's crucial for young people getting married to consider the support they'll get throughout the marriage.

DH leaned in and then we had DS. He's leaning out now. He wants to be there with DS and not be absent like his Dad did, DH regularly came home at midnight. Plus he's done that work for 20 yrs and is tired of it. He now works for smaller company and has better hours, home by 8pm for bedtime. It was his choice that running after latest blockbuster movie wasn't worth it anymore. He's not the only colleague of similar age and experience who downsized projects they work on to be home with their family more. Their attitude is very much BTDT and don't want it anymore. I suppose though, they did all reach the levels they wanted, so then maybe it's easier to lean out.

Once I'm done with school, I'll be leaning in and DH may even be leaning out more, so between us, we'll get things covered.

ETA. I know 2 dads that leaned out. One was engineering at NASA's JPL, other is an oncologist. Both their wives are Dr's and very successful. The engineer dad became SAHD and the Dr. Dad went part-time. I think more and more fathers are saying they want time at home, want to be the one that takes kids to sick appts or field trips, but it's still not enough numbers to make a difference.