When you post bail for someone, do you get your money back?

[RedSuedeShoes]

UPDATE #57

*****************************
Urg. This could definitely be a BP, except I really want to know how bail works. My BIL got himself arrested and charged with felony assault, and now his wife and her family want us to contribute money to his bail.

I am shocked that he did this now; he is a 35-year-old successful professional. It wouldn't have been shocking years ago (he always had a temper, and responded physically when provoked as a kid/teen) but once he got a great job, turned 30, then got married (just a few months ago), we kind of breathed a sigh of relief that maybe he had grown up now. Although he's still very very different from us, and there's a lot we do not understand about how he is. He still parties a lot, although as his income and standard of living have increased, it's become "classier" partying - fancy wines, expensive clubs, etc. He and his wife spend a LOT of money on booze, food, designer clothes, fancy trips, clubs, furniture, jewelry, whatever. They make a lot more money than my DH (who is supporting 5 people), and they apparently blow it all!

BIL is also very narcissistic, and does not consider other people's feelings or needs at all. He is our only family in this time zone (the rest of our extended family lives 3000 miles away) and he has never offered to help us with anything, through 12 years of raising kids, illness, moves, etc. Once, he even said no when we asked him to come stay with a sleeping child while we took the other one to the ER!

At the moment I am so very angry at him for bringing all this stress on my husband and their parents/siblings! And I am beyond angry at the thought of paying money to bail him out. I am trying to get over it, and stay out of the decision making because it's not my family, and I don't want to add to DH's stress right now. But it's not like we have extra money to throw around (like my BIL does!) - my DH's business has slowed in the last couple years and the only reason we actually have a little cushion in our accounts again is because we have put ourselves on a strict budget for the last 18 months. To think that all that careful planning and spending and waiting to buy things we actually needed might have just become a donation to my BIL makes my blood boil!

But my DH says you get the money back if he shows up to all his court dates, etc. Is that true? And DH also says he wants to do whatever it takes to get him good legal representation because if BIL loses his job, he will be screwed and things will just get much worse all the way around (drinking, his marriage, and what kind of help he needs from us). Urrrg.

Okay, sorry for the tangents/BP, but can anyone answer the bail question for me? Thank you.

[Mermanaid]

If you and the family pay the full amount and he does everything he is supposed to then yes, you will get it back. The way I understand it though if he is convicted then then the court may keep a certain percentage of the bond.

If you go through a bondsman, then you pay a percentage of the total bond (so if bond is $20,000 you would pay them $2,000). You do not get this amount back.

This is my basic understanding of how it works. Sorry you are having to deal with this.

[elektra]

Well theoretically I think you do (with some kind of fee or commission take out). But IME when my college boyfriend's brother was arrested, the family did not get the money back because the brother did not hold up his end of the bargain, which I think is a common scenario.
When he inevitably ended up in jail again, they all sort of agreed (brother included) that he should just stay there, and so they did not post the bail that time.

Maybe your BIL's situation is a fluke and he will do exactly what he needs to do to hold up his end of the bargain.
But my boyfriend's brother had a drug problem, and while his arrests were for DUI's the drugs were the underlying issue and it wasn't going to just go away.

I can see how your DH may still want to contribute though. I just really would not count on getting it all back.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

eek. sorry no help re: the bail thing. but my blood is boiling for you, i'd be so upset too!! I know this sounds bad but it if it were my brother doing all those horrible things (arrested for assault, and then especially the part about refusing to help when kid needed to be taken to ER...WTF!!) I'd be inclined to say no to the wife re: the bail money. not only bc of the financial hardship (e.g. handing hard-earned money because of someone's stupid mistake), but i would feel that that would be just further enabling him to screw other people over and continue acting like a child. What is going to motivate him to get his act together if he always knows his brother & his family will bail him out (literally)? And sorry if i'm preaching to the choir here, i figure you know all this, hope your DH can get it as well!

[twowhat?]

No idea about the bail but just wanted to say you are completely justified in not wanting to give that man a CENT. Ugh:(

[wendibird22]

I would consider your contribution a gift and not expect to get it back. Even if the system allows you to get it back that doesn't mean you will and I'm a worst case scenario planner.

My first response to reading your post was "no way no how." Then I thought about if it were my brother (who lives beyond his means and can make some rash decisions) I can see agreeing to giving a portion of the bail money. I would be making it abundantly clear that this is a one time only thing and if there were to be a next time my answer would be a flat out no.

[elektra]

I would consider your contribution a gift and not expect to get it back. Even if the system allows you to get it back that doesn't mean you will and I'm a worst case scenario planner.

My first response to reading your post was "no way no how." Then I thought about if it were my brother (who lives beyond his means and can make some rash decisions) I can see agreeing to giving a portion of the bail money. I would be making it abundantly clear that this is a one time only thing and if there were to be a next time my answer would be a flat out no.

This was basically my thinking too, although wendibird said it better here.

[minnie-zb]

I agree with the others, don't plan on getting it back.

If it will cause a hardship for your family I would not do it.

[Carrots]

I have no advice on the bail, but our BILs sound similar, unfortunately. My BIL is a bookie in FL and is a big a-hole.

He is putting you in a bad spot and I am really sorry. :hug:

[♥ms.pacman♥]

My first response to reading your post was "no way no how." Then I thought about if it were my brother (who lives beyond his means and can make some rash decisions) I can see agreeing to giving a portion of the bail money. I

well, my BIL is sort of like this. totally live beyond their means, had lots of cc debt, spend money foolishly and all that. But, i know they'd move mountains to help us out in case we were in trouble andt hey will happily watch DCs without complaining. they do lots of things for DC without even having to be asked. so if they were ever caught in a financial pickle i'd probably help out somewhat, albeit grumbling. Though I think that is different situation than OP's case, whose BIL who always refused to help them out plus got arrested for a crime.

[div_0305]

Your BIL sounds so selfish! Tell your SIL to take a loan out to pay his bail--either on their joint credit card or BIL's credit. You have kids to care for now and in the future. This will not be the last request for $$. If he doesn't have money for bail, how will he have money for a lawyer? It will be A LOT of money unless he pleads guilty right away in exchange for favorable punishment terms and fines. Yes--he may likely be at stake for substantial fines to the court and the person he injured who will go after him in civil court for medical bills, pain, suffering. He needs to learn lesson. I think your DH thinks if you guys "save" him from this, he'll turn into a calm, rational, responsible human being. It won't happen--he sounds like he has long-standing issues with self-control financially and physically.

Also, it may be that he has a drug/chemical dependency problem.

[BunnyBee]

He's a grown man with a job that pays more than your DH makes and he expects you to help him post bail? Uh no. That's what bail bondsmen are for.

[infomama]

I wouldn't give them a dime but if you do, have them put the bond in your name and not his. Then you have claim to the money. You may have to go to some court appearances to get the money back but bear in mind if there any any court fees/fines the bond goes towards that first.
You may never see that money again depending on the outcome of the case/actions of your relative.

[Mommy_Mea]

If you do contribute, I would have a discussion with DH about this being the only contribution you make, and after that, the answer is "no".

I agree with others that I would be worried that if they can't pay bail, then how are they paying for the lawyer?

I am so sorry, this just sounds like an awful situation to be in :(

[urquie]

If it is a group of people contributing, I think you'd have a very hard time getting your money back (assuming BIL does what is required and the money is returned). I would be concerned that the lup sum of money returned would go to BIL and SIL... and they would realize that they also don't have dough money for their lawyer (and wine and jewelry needs). Of course they'll plan to pay you later, but they can't do it right now...

Who all is contributing? I wonder if no one wants to make the full bail, because they are worried about not getting their money back, and they want to spread the risk.

What happens, if you have a financial emergency, while your $$ cushion is tied up in is bail?

All things considered, I would not contribute. They should sell some jewelery and pay their own bills. :-)

[wellyes]

Just how high is the bail, anyway? I once had to post for a roomate's boyfriend, and it was $250. If we're talking $250, I'd pay.

If we're talking multiple thousands, then, I'd loan the money to the sister vs giving to the courts. Don't put yourself in a position of having to follow his court dates and be part of this business. And I'd consider it a gift while hoping to get it back.

[cntrymoon2]

I agree with PPs who said they wouldn't give a dime! I think it's insane that your BIL makes more than your husband and his wife would have the nerve to expect you to contribute. I would feel differently if your families were close, and they were there for you in other ways, but it sounds like they are very self centered.

[mikala]

My vote is a big, fat no. You'd have to consider any contribution a gift and it sounds like you aren't in a good place to afford large "gifts" to people that have shown they are unwilling to help when you needed it.

You recognized that you weren't comfortable with the size of your emergency fund and you've worked hard to bulk it up to protect your kids. Don't flush the money down the drain for someone else's violent actions.

Off topic, but doesn't the term "felony assault" imply something fairly serious? If the bail is high it's probably high for a reason. It should be telling if he's making a good income and still can't come up with enough $$ on his own to at least pay a bail bondsman.

[RedSuedeShoes]

Thank you all. Yes, you are all "preaching to the choir" when you make those wise, salient points about him not learning his lesson unless he suffers consequences, etc.! I have been thinking all that stuff for years. And I have also said for years that when the sh*t hits the fan for him, I will not bail him out (I never thought it would be so literal, either!).

I don't have any new information yet, but thought I'd answer some questions. Clearly, there are alcohol abuse issues here. He's been a binge drinker since college, but we thought he had gotten a grip on it and mellowed out in recent years. Obviously not, since he says he has no memory of the event that landed him in jail. They were out & drinking, and some guy started hitting on SIL, and BIL beat him up. He apparently picked the wrong guy to beat up, because after he was arrested and charged with misdemeanor assault, the charge was changed to felony assault and he was transferred to a maximum security prison! So DH thinks maybe the victim has connections in the legal system.

Bail was set at $250,000 and 10% of that would have been required by noon to get him out today. SIL is apparently not on BIL's bank accounts, where most of the money is (I have no idea how much money they have in those accounts). SIL and her sister were determined to get him out today no matter what, and they said they and a friend would each contribute $5K, and were asking us to contribute $10K. DH called our lawyer (a small business lawyer) who recommended getting a lawyer involved first, because they could usually get the bail decreased, thereby freeing up funds towards his legal defense. So, SIL found him a lawyer, who met with BIL this morning. I don't know what else has happened yet.

DH says if we give him money, he will tell him he has to get treatment. I will likely be the one to add the clause about never bailing him out again! I also think DH could/should ask their siblings to contribute. There are two sisters who likely have way more disposable income than we do (I know one sister does, and think the other sister probably does). BIL feels closer to DH than his other sibs and feels more comfortable asking us for help, but I don't think that means it is our responsibility alone.

Even though BIL drives me absolutely crazy with his self-centeredness, I do *think* if this type of situation were reversed, BIL would help us out. He would be more likely to give money than time or child care or emotional support. But I think he tends to assume that we have plenty of money since DH has a decent income, and we don't spend money on things like he does. We drive really old cars, don't go to concerts/fancy restaurants/etc., buy mostly secondhand and bargain stuff. BIL doesn't seem to get that a big chunk of DH's income goes to student loan and business loan payments, and that supporting a family of 5 pretty much takes care of the rest.

I am trying to separate out my emotions about our history with BIL, and figure out what makes sense for us to do in this situation. But it's hard when I am so angry at BIL for adding this degree of stress onto DH and FIL/MIL, especially, when they all carry so much stress and responsibility already. And this was completely avoidable! Just don't go out and get blitzed and do something stupid! Duh.

Thanks again, BBB, for "listening" and letting me vent!

[waitingforgrace]

He needs to get an atty to lower the bond/get him released on an OR bond. If SIL still can't pay it the lawyer should be able to refer a bail bondsman to them.

[icunurse]

Ok, I am a big believer in growing up at some point and "you do the crime, you do the time". Too many parking tickets is one thing. A felony and assault are serious crimes in my mind and therefore, unless I felt that he was being unfairly charged and since he makes more than enough money to cover all of his other endeavors, I would expect him and his wife to be responsible for this. And if he had to stay in jail for a couple days, well, maybe that would make an impression on him to never do stupid things again. But that is what is would do if it were *my* family....

Seeing as it is your DH's brother, I think that you need to sit down with DH and talk about your finances, the impact this money will have on your family, what would happen if you don't get the money back and set a firm limit on things (how much money total will you spend for bail, lawyer, etc before you say no, what if this happens again in the future, etc). I would let DH kinda lead, let my feelings be known and then do my best to just let it go, but remind him of the limits you guys set, if needed. It is a slippery slope between not causing problems between you and DH for helping and for not helping/helping too much.

That said, grown men fighting are idiots and IME typically don't stop without much intervention and self-effort. I have seen too many people traumatized both physically and mentally by these bullies, often far worse than the aggressor intends (I have seen people remain in a coma or die after one good punch). I also don't believe that someone that aggressive could have an isolated incident, short of being a long-shot accusation of self-defense.

Sorry that you are getting caught up in this.....

[wellyes]

To sum up. Binge drinker who committed a felony assault serious enough to warrant a $250,000 bail. Makes good money but his wife doesn't have access to his bank accounts. Bad bad bad news in all directions. A $10,000 gift to this cause would make my skin crawl.

Sorry you are dealing with this.

[California]

It sounds like your SIL is in a panic (understandably) and jumped right to asking for money without considering her other options. If she doesn't have access to BIL's account, can the lawyer work it out so BIL writes a check? I guess I'm not seeing how Plan A wouldn't be to slow down, get an attorney, get bail lowered and figure out how to get it from BIL's account. Plan B (for me) would be asking a bail bondsman to convert the $20,000 and using SIL's cash to cover the fee. Plan C would be to ask others for help.

[westwoodmom04]

I really don't have any advice beyond what has already been given and I'm really sorry that you are in this situation. I think there is a good chance you will never see the money you agree to give again, so please consider that when you make your decision. Does anyone know the condition of the victim? I think that may be determining the severity of the charges rather than political connections. That is a really high bail amount so there may be far more to the story than you and your dh have been told.

[ahisma]

To sum up. Binge drinker who committed a felony assault serious enough to warrant a $250,000 bail. Makes good money but his wife doesn't have access to his bank accounts. Bad bad bad news in all directions. A $10,000 gift to this cause would make my skin crawl.

Sorry you are dealing with this.

Ditto. I'd do what I could to support his wife and kids but would not contribute to bail in this situation.

A $250k bail for felony assault would be a huge red flag to me. Sounds line more than a minor bar brawl. I suspect he has bigger issues than bail right now.

[Kymberley]

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. It's hard to say what the best course of action is, but my gut says not to contribute to the bail. On the topic of insisting that BIL goes into treatment- I'll just tell you now that unless he hits rock bottom, it (recovery) won't stick. Bailing him out won't do anything but enable him NOT to change. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just passing along what I know. I wish the best for all of you.

[SummerBaby]

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I have to echo PP who said not to contribute. I wanted to add that something does not sound right with this story. Are you sure he's just being charged with assault? Even at the felony level, that is not a charge, at least in my jurisdiction, that would warrant $250,000 bail. Either this is not a simple bar fight, or your BIL has a fairly serious criminal record. Also, he should be able, through an attorney, to access his accounts to make bail. I would urge you to make sure you are being told the entire truth before committing such a large sum of money.

[crayonblue]

Ditto. I'd do what I could to support his wife and kids but would not contribute to bail in this situation.


This. And I wouldn't feel one iota of guilt about that decision. But, pretty much count on family members trying to heap on the guilt...don't take the guilt!

[mikala]

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I have to echo PP who said not to contribute. I wanted to add that something does not sound right with this story. Are you sure he's just being charged with assault? Even at the felony level, that is not a charge, at least in my jurisdiction, that would warrant $250,000 bail. Either this is not a simple bar fight, or your BIL has a fairly serious criminal record. Also, he should be able, through an attorney, to access his accounts to make bail. I would urge you to make sure you are being told the entire truth before committing such a large sum of money.

I thought about this more and agree. The "my wife can't access my accounts so we need your money" line sounds really fishy.

Have you seen a police report or at least blotter info about the arrest? In our area the police post a list of felony crimes online.

[codex57]

Yeah, something's not adding up. $250,000 bail is for something REALLY serious.

If he's got the money, an attorney can work something out so that he can access it. Temporary power of attorney or whatever.

I don't think you need to contribute anything. Just stall (cuz the SIL is panicking) until the attorney can do his job. An extra day or two in jail prolly would be a good thing for your BIL from the sound of it.

[ABO Mama]

A lawyer has to be the first priority. I wouldn't consider bail until a lawyer has been consulted. Bail may be lowered, so less money may be needed, and the BIL's own money could be accessed.

I wouldn't put any money towards bail. A lawyer or counselor would be better use of the money. I would also only give the amount that your family could afford to loose, because chances are you won't have it returned.

[BunnyBee]

$250K for a bar fight? Did he kill the other guy? He needs a lawyer. The lawyer can get power of attorney for his wife or whomever to access his own money for bail.

Could SIL be trying to take your cash to pay retainer for a divorce attorney?

Most jurisdictions now have websites where you can look up people and see what they're being held for and bail.

[cilantromapuche]

That is such a hard position to be in. They should be able to put up their home,etc. as collateral.

[twowhat?]

250K??? And they want you to gift him 10K??? That is INSANE. We're fairly well-off financially but I can say for certain that if my brother got tossed in jail with that kind of bond, no way would I put any money towards his bail.

Definitely let a lawyer sort it out. A couple extra days isn't going to hurt him. WOW.

And, agree with PP to be sympathetic and offer whater support you can to the wife and kids (babysitting, helping with meals, whatever). I just couldn't imagine contributing a cent to that kind of bond, even for family. Whatever he did must have been serious and honestly, he should have to do the time.

[California]

It might help with your DH if you two sit down together and write down possible ways this may play out. This sounds like a situation that will be drawn out. If he starts thinking about this long term he may realize that depleting your finances now- when BIL can potentially get help from a lawyer and then a loan from a bail bonds service- will leave you all very vulnerable in the future.

[Cam&Clay]

For bail that high, I'm thinking the injuries were extremely serious or the injured person was law enforcement.

[Mermanaid]

For that amount of bond you are missing part of the story! Unless he's just ended up with a judge who likes to set examples of people.

Again. so sorry you have been put in this situation. I thought you had to put up the entire amount of bond to get out of jail? It sounds to me like your SIL is trying to raise money for the bondsman (10%, so $25k) because I find it hard to believe she could come up with 250k by asking friends/family to donate 5k here, 10k there. If that is the case, you will NEVER see that money back. The bondsman keeps it as his/her fee to put up the entire 250k to the courts.

[dcmom2b3]

I remember a call I made to a bail bondsman in 1992, inquiring about bailing out my BF who had surrendered in an amnesty program for unpaid parking tickets, but had the bad luck to have surrendered late Thursday. Because the city cleared the jail each weekend, it was possible that BF could have been transferred from local jail to a more serious lockup, (Santa Rita? Rosa?, for you Cali folks). BF called me Friday upset, and I called a bail bondsman. The bondsman said, "Sweetheart, don't do it with you own money. If you can sell some things of his, fine. But don't post bond for him with your own money." It was good advice in 1992. And it's good advice now.


Yeah, something's not adding up. $250,000 bail is for something REALLY serious.

If he's got the money, an attorney can work something out so that he can access it. Temporary power of attorney or whatever.

I don't think you need to contribute anything. Just stall (cuz the SIL is panicking) until the attorney can do his job. An extra day or two in jail prolly would be a good thing for your BIL from the sound of it.

:yeahthat:

Codex sums it up. I'll add a couple of things that I don't think have been touched on upthread.

I'd be neutral about the change in charges and bail for now. While it may be comforting to think that the victim *must* be working some kind of inside connection to up the ante against your BIL, you/SIL/BIL/his lawyer should also consider that the increase in charges and bail may be a result of post-arrest evidence uncovered with further investigation. Like viewing videotapes from the bar. Not saying that inside influence couldn't happen, and all jurisdictions are different re: what's needed to file charges (as opposed to proving them at trial). But I work in a prosecutors' office (not criminal so YM will V) and we're attuned to complaining witnesses' biases when we make charges, if for no other reason than we don't want our "star" witness to get lit up on cross-examination and have the case fall apart after all our prep work to bring it to trial. Prosecutorial culture may be very different where you are -- BIL needs good legal advice.

Also, if BIL were bailed out, the conditions of his release *could* be more onerous than just showing up for his court dates -- things like passing weekly drug/alcohol testing. Things that a narcissistic, self-centered, self-indulgent person with a drinking problem would chafe at, perhaps? His failure to do so may put your money at risk.

If BIL did comply with the terms of his release, if the bond isn't in your name there's probably no guarantee that the money would be returned to you directly, rather than to BIL who would have a tacit obligation to reimburse you. As PPs have said, no guarantee that he's make good on that obligation. Consider that if you were inclined to contribute, not only would his compliance be beyond your control, but his personality might also make him less likely to comply with the terms of his release, which you also won't have any control over (that's the judge's job). And you won't know exactly what his terms of release are unless you actively participate in his case. This is formenting family drama. Why open the door to drama?

I'd also add that, in my uninformed and common-sense (not legal) opinion, properly defending someone who can't even remember the circumstances of the felony assault he's charged with is going to be an expensive proposition -- identifying, finding and interviewing other bar patrons who may be potential witnesses; collecting evidence from the bar where the event happened (again, security videos?) Nailing down what he told the police after he was arrested? All costs over and above a simple case. So if it turns out that the $25K (or whatever amount) that is spent for bail would have better spent on a good lawyer . . .

Like the guy told me in 1992, whatever you do, just don't do it with your own money.

[tropicalmom]

For bail that high, I'm thinking the injuries were extremely serious or the injured person was law enforcement.

:yeahthat:

Definitely get more information on the crime, get lawyer to coordinate access to his funds, have SIL sell/pawn some of her jewelry, heck get lawyer to get power of attorney to sell his car (sounds like with that lifestyle he likely has an expensive car he shouldn't be driving around under the influence.) He needs to have more financial skin in the game before you put any in and you need more information about the victim and crime to know what's ahead.

Agree with PP that with DH you should write down and talk about ways this could play out in the future to get calm heads around this.

[squimp]

I would offer to help with the kids or house or whatever, but yep I would stall on giving them any money until they sort things out with the lawyer. Sounds like a really bad situation and really scary that he cannot remember what happened.

[bigpassport]

Hi OP. I didn't read all of the responses, so I don't know if you got your question answered but I asked my husband who is a criminal defense attorney and here is how it works in Nevada. If bail is $250k (assuming his attorney didn't get it reduced at the arraignment/initial appearance), you go to a bailbondsman and pay him 15% of $250,000 (i.e. $37,500) and that is the bondsman's FEE. You do not get this back. On top of the fee, the bondsman will get some other security from you, like a lien on your house. If BIL satisfies all requirements, then the bondsman will get the bond exonerated and is not out any additional money. If BIL skips bail, then the bondsman can lose the money he put up for the bond and come after the security you provided. Now, this is how it works in NV. I can't say it works the same where you are, but probably basically the same. $250,000 is a lot of money. $37,500 is a lot of money. HTH and good luck to you and your family during this difficult situation.

[candybomiller]

I don't have anything to add regarding the legalities, but my answer for giving $10,000 that you'll never see again would not only be no, but hell no. Don't screw up your family finances for some selfish bastard who probably wouldn't even appreciate it. Put your family first.

[Pear]

I wouldn't give the money unless you can afford for it to disappear forever. I mean comfortably afford without putting your own financial stability at risk.

Instead I would offer babysitting, phone call help, dropping off a casserole

[wendibird22]

Given your update I've changed my mind to a "heck no!" $1K I could wrap my mind around and come to terms with never seeing. $10K towards a $250K bail, no way, no how. OP I really feel for you and your DH. Being in the middle of family drama always sucks. It's such a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation. But given all the other circumstances I'd put my own family first.

[elektra]

Wow. $250k huh?
That is also not what I had in mind. I really hope you don't end up having to get involved OP. But I just know that if this was my own DH's family (they are all really supportive of each other) just a "heck no" would just not fly.
But even with this new amount, what I said before probably still stands, I would not count on getting back what you contribute. So I would use that as a gauge to decide what you would give, if anything.
And if they are somehow putting the guilt trip or getting angry with you guys for being hesitant, then things are totally backwards. Your DH (and you) are the ones who should be angry for even being asked to give money for this cause. Sounds like your BIL messed up big time, and it is not just a fluke. I hope the person he beat up is ok. :(

Also, I have first hand experience with contingencies on gifting money or help tied to the person going to therapy or getting help. I am 0 for 2 on that.

[npace19147]

As a pp said, my blood is boiling for you. What an unreasonable position to be put in!

I would recommend finding a phone number for your state/local bar association. They should be able to refer you to someone to call so you and your DH can get an idea of what this process will look like going forward and what kind of $$ will be involved. If your DH is anything like mine, he will take the info better from a legal professional than the BBB. (even though the info comes out the same in the end). :)

If you need help finding a contact feel free to pm me and I'll see what I can find through our bar office. GL!

[BayGirl2]

:22: Because this is such a hard position for your family.

I agree with sitting down with your DH and talking through all the possible scenarios and the different ways you could help out. Be supportive of his need to help BIL, but also bring visibility to how things may impact your family.

It sounds like $10k would be a donation, and one that your family can't comfortably make. You and your DH's primary responsibility are to your children and each other, and its important you have an emergency fund. IMO that emergency/cushion fund is not expendable and should not be put at risk. If the probability of getting that $10k back is anything less than 100% its not a safe bet for you. If this were your vacation and shopping fund I may feel different, but its not. There may be other ways you and your DH can help them as mentioned above.

[wendibird22]

You know as I read Elektra's post I realized that "heck no!" is a lot easier said than done. And I get that in some families there are some other dynamics at play that influence the final decision. Perhaps there's a compromise between $0-$10K. Maybe it doesn't have to be all or nothing if a)your DH wants to help and b)there's a lesser amount you feel comfortable gifting to the "cause."

[codex57]

In her mind, it can be "Heck no". In words to the SIL, it can just be whatever to stall until an attorney can be hired to try and get bail reduced. Then, reevaluate after the bail reduction. If he has to stew in jail a few days to get that worked out, well, too bad. He obviously did something bad enough that a few days time served can work to his favor after the trial.

[randomkid]

Another thing to consider is that, unless BIL owns his own business, he could lose his job over this, esp. if he is convicted. I agree with PPs who say to let the lawyer handle it. That's what they are there for!

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[teresah00]

I would help the wife w meals, child care but no money for bail. If you do give $, I wouldn't expect to see a cent back. He doesn't seem the type of person to put others needs first.


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[egoldber]

Another thing to consider is that, unless BIL owns his own business, he could lose his job over this,

This is definitely something to consider. Even if he ultimately gets off or the charge is dropped/reduced many people miss so much work that they lose their job.

I do agree with a PP though that your SIL probably panicked initially and didn't know what to do.

[brittone2]

Also, I have first hand experience with contingencies on gifting money or help tied to the person going to therapy or getting help. I am 0 for 2 on that.
:yeahthat:
DH and I have refused to financially bail out siblings in the past (they've repeated the same bad choices and it would just equate to enabling), but I have seen some of my sibs bail out other sibs, and my parents bail my siblings out. It has generally not changed anything, and it has not gone well in most cases. It has adversely impacted relationships in many ways.

If you do contribute, give what you can give without jeopardizing your own security. Don't expect to see it back at all if you give, and be pleasantly surprised if you are paid back. If you can only tolerate giving under the assumption you'll get your $$ back, I would not contribute.

I hope it works out and they find a way to tap the accounts without bringing you into it.

eta: DH and I have helped in non financial ways, but I refuse to enable, and in our case, that's what it would have been, and it has been a decades-long issue with one sibling. So I have purchased food, made phone calls, dug up info and passed it along, checked in regularly by phone to provide emotional support, sent gas GCs, etc. but have intentionally not contributed cash. If anyone flips out that you are not willing to give cash, then let them. I would try to help in other ways: provide support to the SIL/family, etc., help with errands if they are tied up with court and other responsibilities, pick up groceries and pay for them, etc. but I would be hesitant to pony up thousands of dollars in the scenario you described, unless you can let it go and not have it damage the relationship if you are not paid back.

[westwoodmom04]

:yeahthat:
DH and I have refused to bail out siblings in the past (they've repeated the same bad choices and it would just equate to enabling), but I have seen some of my sibs bail out other sibs, and my parents bail them out. It has generally not changed anything, and it has not gone well in most cases. It has adversely impacted relationships in many ways.

If you do contribute, give what you can give without jeopardizing your own security. Don't expect to see it back at all if you give, and be pleasantly surprised if you are paid back. If you can only tolerate giving under the assumption you'll get your $$ back, I would not contribute.

I hope it works out and they find a way to tap the accounts without bringing you into it.

Yes, I have seen this happen in my extended family. The family member extending help/money reasonably expects gratitude but is instead met with resentment. Shouldn't work that way, but often does.

[TwinFoxes]

Codex sums it up. I'll add a couple of things that I don't think have been touched on upthread.

I'd be neutral about the change in charges and bail for now. While it may be comforting to think that the victim *must* be working some kind of inside connection to up the ante against your BIL, you/SIL/BIL/his lawyer should also consider that the increase in charges and bail may be a result of post-arrest evidence uncovered with further investigation. Like viewing videotapes from the bar. Not saying that inside influence couldn't happen, and all jurisdictions are different re: what's needed to file charges (as opposed to proving them at trial). But I work in a prosecutors' office (not criminal so YM will V) and we're attuned to complaining witnesses' biases when we make charges, if for no other reason than we don't want our "star" witness to get lit up on cross-examination and have the case fall apart after all our prep work to bring it to trial. Prosecutorial culture may be very different where you are -- BIL needs good legal advice.

Also, if BIL were bailed out, the conditions of his release *could* be more onerous than just showing up for his court dates -- things like passing weekly drug/alcohol testing. Things that a narcissistic, self-centered, self-indulgent person with a drinking problem would chafe at, perhaps? His failure to do so may put your money at risk.

If BIL did comply with the terms of his release, if the bond isn't in your name there's probably no guarantee that the money would be returned to you directly, rather than to BIL who would have a tacit obligation to reimburse you. As PPs have said, no guarantee that he's make good on that obligation. Consider that if you were inclined to contribute, not only would his compliance be beyond your control, but his personality might also make him less likely to comply with the terms of his release, which you also won't have any control over (that's the judge's job). And you won't know exactly what his terms of release are unless you actively participate in his case. This is formenting family drama. Why open the door to drama?

I'd also add that, in my uninformed and common-sense (not legal) opinion, properly defending someone who can't even remember the circumstances of the felony assault he's charged with is going to be an expensive proposition -- identifying, finding and interviewing other bar patrons who may be potential witnesses; collecting evidence from the bar where the event happened (again, security videos?) Nailing down what he told the police after he was arrested? All costs over and above a simple case. So if it turns out that the $25K (or whatever amount) that is spent for bail would have better spent on a good lawyer . . .




I was thinking a lot of this, but I don't have a law degree so M-H said it much more clearly. I think the charges being increased have nothing to do with the victim's connections. I mean it could, but more likely they found out the guy has severe injuries, or your BIL has some skeletons in his closet you don't know about. Is BIL the baby? I just think this smacks so much of "it's not really his fault because it should have been a misdemeanor, obviously someone pulled strings, it's bad luck, not his bad actions".

I also agree with PP who say he may lose his job. If his job has a security clearance, or any sort of ethics board (realtor for example) this could be a serious issue. Not to mention disappearing in the middle of the week for a few days while sitting in jail.

I also call BS on SIL not having ANY way of accessing his account.

Lastly though...I might be one of the few people here who'd actually give the money, although it would be very reluctantly. A maximum security prison is no joke...we're not talking county lockup. It's like San Quentin. Bad things happen in prison...assaults, sexual assaults, etc. I don't think I could knowingly let someone in my, or my DH's family sit in a maximum security prison. I'm totally for learning through consequences, if you can't do the time don't do the crime, etc. But a maximum security prison is a bad, bad place.

[Philly Mom]

The one thing that seems strange to me is that he is in "a maximum security prison." I am not sure where you live but that should not be the case. He should be in a detention center until he is convicted of a crime and then depending on the length of the sentence they choose what facility to send you to. I don't believe you get sent to "prison" without actually being convicted.

[RedSuedeShoes]

Well, I typed a big update last night but apparently didn't actually post it, and now I don't have time or energy to re-type it all. But I did want to say a big thank you to everyone who shared your experience and/or thoughts on this. It has helped me tremendously to have objective & experienced viewpoints. This is all so very new to us - till now, we have never dealt with any legal trouble of any kind ourselves or with our families.

After reading your responses here, and talking to a friend IRL who used to work at the public defender's office, I was able to talk DH into getting off the "bail him out" train. He was then able to talk everyone else down and get them to agree to wait on bail and figure out the atty thing first. BIL hired an attorney who turned out to not be very good. So today we are in the process of switching attorneys to one my DH found who seems very good.

Apparently, this is really all just over one punch. They (BIL, SIL, and their good friend) were walking to their car at about 2 AM when two guys walked by and insulted BIL - said something about him being a loser - and BIL thought they also touched SIL's breast. So he punched the guy, the guy fell down & had a bloody nose. The guy's friend ran and called the cops, who just happened to be nearby dealing with something else.

In our state we passed a ballot measure a few years ago that mandates hefty fines and minimum sentences for certain crimes, Assault 2 being one of them. So the judge had no choice but to set bail at 250K once the charge was upgraded from Assault 4 to Assault 2 (I think that's because the guy's nose turned out to be broken, but I'm not sure). If he is convicted, the judge will have no choice but to sentence him to 70 months.

I am feeling more sympathy for BIL now that I know the circumstances of the incident (not that it's OK to walk around punching people, but this all seems way out of proportion). He did make poor choices (getting blitzed to the point that he couldn't make good ones would be his first poor choice). But he did not beat someone to a pulp, do drugs, use a weapon, or any of the other things I had been wondering about.

But I am also very relieved DH is not jumping in with all our spare cash immediately. And relieved to have a good attorney on the job. But still worried for DH and his parents and the degree of stress they are all taking on over this.

There is a long history of making excuses for BIL's behavior (on MIL's part) because MIL/FIL feel a lot of guilt over his childhood. He is the 5th of 6 kids, with #5 and #6 being young children while MIL/FIL were going through a terribly hard time so they were largely neglected by the parents and raised by older sibs or others in the community. The youngest turned out great, but BIL has always been the "troubled" one, and MIL especially is uber-quick to defend him, regardless of circumstances. But c'mon, he is 35! My DH is his big brother (and his only brother) and feels a need to fix things for him when he can; I am hoping he can stop feeling responsible for fixing this (since it isn't possible for him/us to fix it anyway).

Anyway, thanks again for hearing me out on all this, and for offering your opinions! It is much appreciated.

ETA: I just found out he is not in maximum security. It is medium security. Also, there has been some mention of helping wife/kids upthread - thankfully, they do not have kids! They just got married a few months ago. There is just himself, his wife, and his awesome job. I'm sad to think of him losing that job, because he really will be screwed then. But we can't fix that either.

[div_0305]

Gosh I'm glad I just saw your update and found your other one. I'd only add that the increased charge could be based on the level of injury to the victim. If your SIL and the friend with them make good witnesses, and honestly are portraying what really happened, then I think your BIL stands a good chance of showing he was provoked or showing the victim was also partly at fault--this could sway a judge to be more lenient on punishment. I also agree with PP that I don't think he could be in a maximum security prison, but rather a type of detention facility/jail, which is not a prison.

[wellyes]

Apparently, this is really all just over one punch. They (BIL, SIL, and their good friend) were walking to their car at about 2 AM when two guys walked by and insulted BIL - said something about him being a loser - and BIL thought they also touched SIL's breast. So he punched the guy, the guy fell down & had a bloody nose. The guy's friend ran and called the cops, who just happened to be nearby dealing with something else.Mmmm-hmmm, that happens all the time. Guys walk around insulting random strangers and putting hands on their wives, forcing themselves to get punched, then run to whine to the cops about a nosebleed. Sure.

I am glad your DH & you are on the same page. And if it really was a one-punch fight (it really isn't that easy to break a nose.....) I sincerely do hope he doesn't get 70 months.

[crayonblue]

Also, I have first hand experience with contingencies on gifting money or help tied to the person going to therapy or getting help. I am 0 for 2 on that.

Yep, and total lack of appreciation for the money or the help. It makes me never want to help anyone ever again and I know I shouldn't feel that way. :( We just have to be more careful of who we help and not feel one iota of guilt not helping/enabling family members.

[TwinFoxes]

Mmmm-hmmm, that happens all the time. Guys walk around insulting random strangers and putting hands on their wives, forcing themselves to get punched, then run to whine to the cops about a nosebleed. Sure.

I am glad your DH & you are on the same page. And if it really was a one-punch fight (it really isn't that easy to break a nose.....) I sincerely do hope he doesn't get 70 months.

:yeahthat: The walking along minding his own business, he throws one punch after thinking the other guy touched his wife's boob, guy falls and gets bloody nose just sounds like more excuse making. I wonder if there's video of the parking lot. If it's as he's describing, assault sounds like a weird charge. Wouldn't the first guy be guilty of assault for grabbing SIL's boob?

I am glad he's not in a maximum security prison. That would be scary.