If you are a SAHM, do you/when do you plan to return to work?

[citymama]

If you are currently an SAHM, do you plan to return to work at some point in the future? If so, is there an age (of your kids) at which you plan to do so, or some other juncture? Do you plan/want to return to the same field you were previously in? And does this plan change if your spouse loses a job?

In the "Educated Moms Less Likely to Work" thread I saw comments to the effect of "yes, I'm one of those women, and my field is going to make it impossible to return because I'll be so out of date" (law/IT/media etc). That sounds very challenging, as leaving the workforce to have kids would be equivalent to a permanent departure, at least for your field of specialty. I'm wondering how, if at all, you are planning ahead, including for uncertainty. Are you comfortable with the status quo, or does it cause you any concern for the future?

I ask partly because I know several people (including close relatives) IRL in this situation. In a few cases, I don't think they are actively planning ahead, mostly just going with the flow. One friend with older kids just went from being a FT SAHM for 12 years to making a quite successful career return, in the same field (FT). Another has been trying to find work, without much success, after 10 years of being a SAHM and her field having completely changed.

Thanks for indulging my questions!

[Melaine]

I worked as a legal secretary and then as a nanny. I wouldn't return to either. For now we are homeschooling so I'm at least 4 years out....it's totally possible that by the time DS enters school, we will have stopped homeschooling and if all three of my kids were in school I would try to at the very least work part time because money is tight. It's most likely I would do something with writing since that's what I'm most comfortable with. Or maybe start my own business of some kind which I'm already kind of planning in the back of my mind.

[wellyes]

Being immersed in the toddler/preschooler world right now, I can't say what I'll do when they both in school full time. In theory, once they're in school, I'll have time to work without having to pay for daycare. But we're talking 2017 here. By which time, I will only have any hope of finding a job through people I know, since my skills are pretty general.
I am spending time volunteering now, to make connections and maybe have SOMETHING for my resume / cover letter besides a 5 year gap. Event planning, fundraising, I'm on a non-profit board, local politics, etc.

[daisymommy]

I was in the field of psychology pre-kids, and I have no desire to return to that line of work. I'm so burnt out on taking care of other people's problems at this point. That may sound bad, but it's the truth. I also feel completely out of the loop, and disconnected from my field.
A this point, the only reason I would return to work is if we absolutely needed the money, or just for fun, in a brand new field. I dream of becoming a midwife, doula, childbirth or lactation educator someday. Babies and mamas make me happy :)

Otherwise, I'm happy tending to my home and family, and would like to do volunteer work in the community and at my kids schools.


Sent from my iPad

[shawnandangel]

When DD started Pre-school at almost age 4 this past fall I went back to work. Now we are pregnant and expecting #2 in late August/early September. I will be a sahm again with #2 but since my current job is PRN (I'm a nurse) I will most likely work 10-15 hours a week so there is no gap in my resume when I go back full time once he is 3 or 4.

[georgiegirl]

I was worried about that since DS will start kindergarten in the fall of 2014, but then I got pregnant again, so that buys me another 5 years. Even when the kids are in school, there's no way I can work full time because I will always have to be the parent to take off if someone is sick, and with 3 kids, that's a lot. Maybe something part time, so I could also volunteer. But there aren't many interesting part time law opportunities available here. We are lucky that DH does well financially, but that also lessens the incentive for me to work, since my salary would be taxed at his rate. I just don't know. I can't see myself having another career right now (but I'm 5 months pregnant and not very career oriented right now.)

[JBaxter]

I'm not. I worked with DS1 & Ds2 were young and stopped working when they were 9 & 12 when I had Ds3. I love being home and having the ability to run kids to and from practices & school events.

[queenmama]

I'm not.

I would have to go back to school and I am feeling too run down and scatterbrained to consider it, though I might feel like it by the time DD starts school. I don't want to think about how old I'll be then...

ETA: I've been a SAHM for 13 years.

Lara

[pastrygirl]

I want to go back part-time. I have a very occasional part-time job from home right now, and there are some months/weeks where I get regular assignments, but it's been pretty dry for the past several months.

I've been offered a "real" part-time opportunity with a different company and will jump on that as soon as they make it official. Hopefully the pay minus taxes and childcare will still be worth it. If I just break even, I'll have to think about it. I'm almost at the point where I want my brain working again, even if it means no additional income. Almost, but not yet. My 3.5yo is finally getting to be super precious (aka, not crying all the time anymore). It's fun hanging out with him all day.

If this job falls through, I will almost certainly look for something in the fall, when my youngest is in preschool 4 mornings a week.

ETA: my career easily allows for working at home. I might think differently if it didn't. When the kids are young, I'd like to work at home mostly with little in-office time.

[janine]

Not a SAHM, but something I have put alot of thought into so this is a great thread. For me it would have been elementary school, but then by the time #2 is in school we're talking close to 10 yrs out of the market and in my opinion that is not realistic unless it's starting from scratch again (but older). It's tough. I'd be curious to hear how/if others did it successfully.

Since I therefore decided to stick it out working as long as I could and put off SAHM, now the question is when and ironically I'm still thinking elemantary school and doing part time work rather than a full on 2nd income/career.

[123LuckyMom]

My plan is to do something once both kids are in elementary school. It would be part time so I would be home when they are home. Most likely I would rebuild a private practice, but I might choose to try to get a job. I would far prefer to be in a workplace with others, honestly. What I miss the most about not working are the (good) interactions with coworkers and, frankly, the affirmation and respect from others for a job well done. You just don't get that as a SAHM unless you have a DH who provides it, and that can feel a little bit like your mom telling you you're pretty, kwim? I'm not sure yet what I'll do, but I'd really like to do something, even if it's volunteer work. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I had all that free time!!!

[Gracemom]

My youngest in in K and I've been looking for part-time work. It's tough out there! Most of what I have found doesn't pay very well. The higher paying jobs in my field want me to work longer hours or are too far away. I volunteer a lot and my kids are in lots of after school activities. I just feel so torn. And I'm kind of scared to re-enter the work force after being out for 10 years! But I really do want to go back to work. I think it would be very good for me, as well as good for our bank account! My kids are so used to me being at home. They don't want me to go back to work. They like seeing me volunteer at their school, and they like coming straight home for snack/play time before their activities. I wish I had kept more feelers in the work world, taking on contract jobs or something. I think that would have made the transition easier. My DH REALLY wants me to go back to work. I don't think he realizes how much he'll have to do around the house once that happens though. We would hire a house cleaner, but that still leaves cooking, shopping, laundry, bill paying, etc. I think it will add a lot of stress to our lives. I need to do some deep breathing now.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Looking to do something part time when ds2 starts k.

[egoldber]

My original plan was to go back when my youngest was in elementary school. Which would be now. But DH lost his job and started his own business 4 years ago and so I started looking for work. I now carry all the health insurance for the family and contribute significantly to retirement and college savings.

In reality it was probably good that I went back before I was out 10+ years. It was hard enough finding someone to hire me being 7 years out.


I would far prefer to be in a workplace with others, honestly. What I miss the most about not working are the (good) interactions with coworkers and, frankly, the affirmation and respect from others for a job well done.

:yeahthat: This was me too. I told DH once when I was still a SAHM that I didn't miss work, but I missed going out to lunch with colleagues. ;) And I definitely missed getting attaboys for a job well done.


Most of what I have found doesn't pay very well. The higher paying jobs in my field want me to work longer hours or are too far away.

I had the added complexity of needing to carry health insurance. And what I found was that anything less than full time in my old field really didn't pay enough to make it worth my while. I am happy to have found a not very stressful work place that gives me abundant leave and allows me the flexibility to set my start and end time and with the option of telework multiple days per pay period.

[pinkmomagain]

I voted other.

I've been a SAHM for 13 + years. Last year I went back to school for a 2nd masters degree in a new (for me) field. Right now I am interning a few days a week while going to school a couple of nights a week and it is hard, mostly with my 7 yo and getting her off the bus. Hiring a babysitter has been a real life saver. I am still able to get everyone off to school just fine, and help the little one with homework.

I am not sure what the ideal is. Having teenagers, it is vital to keep track of them and be around for them -- trust me! And of course a little one needs even more attention.

When my schooling is done next year, I will need to get a job to start to accrue hours during licensing. Ideally, I would like to find something 9-3 if at all possible. I don't antiicipate any kind of tough commute and will hope to find something within 20 minutes from home. 9-5 works too as dd3's school has aftercare and my middle one can let herself into the house for a couple of hours (my oldest will be off to college!). After 2-3 years of working and getting my license, I hope to do private work and have more flexible hours according to my needs. We shall see....

[KrisM]

I've been out about 9 years now. DS2 goes to kindergarten, full day, in September.

I have no plans to go back to work, even part time. I like being home. I like that I can do all the errands during the day and then run kids around after school. DH prefers to be home after work, so it works for him, too.

If DH lost a job and had a difficult time finding something, I would get something. Otherwise, nope.

[kbud]

Great question, one I've been asking myself every day now.

I've been mostly a SAHM for over 9 years now. My youngest will be in full day kindy come Aug. My original plan was to go back to work once all the kids were in school full time. That changed when my oldest went to kindy. I though PT work would be best.

Now in the past 6 months I have had a strong desire to get back into my career which was working in the airlines in flight attendant training or management. DH would like me to not go back to work as he realizes how much harder it will be on him.

I have a great PT I do from home. I can do it whenever I want as much or little as I want to for the most part. I can work anytime 24 hours a day. I've been doing this for over 4 years now. It's a great gig but it's just not interesting at all to me. It's contract work so it could be gone any day but it works well for our family.

I went to school for elementary ed but I just have no interest in that although it would work out great for the family.

I really, really miss the airlines. I did apply for a full time job in Jan. but they hired within. I am intrigued that one airline has been doing some hiring for PT flight attendants near me. From what I hear it would work out great for me, work 2-6 days a month and not doing over nights, leave early in the morning and be back mid afternoon. The only problem is there is a one time 5 1/2 week training on the other side of the country! Not exactly sure how to make that work. They aren't hiring at the moment but if they do again I really want to apply but DH says there is no way we can go without me for 5 1/2 weeks. Although we did it when I broke my ankle and was on crutches for 2 months...of course he really remembers how hard that was on him;)

So I have no idea what to do and am so surprised I now have such a strong desire to get back into my field. Lately I've realized I am the only one in this house that doesn't get out and have a "life" beyond the family. I also see how quickly our financial future would benefit. We make ends meet now but have no extra, college funds, strong retirement etc. Of course I can start working my PT a lot more come next school year but it's not fulfilling to me.

I do worry about managing everything at home and working FT, heck being a SAHM is more than a FT job, even with kids in school there is a lot to stay on top of. My family would really have a hard time with me working FT as I've always done it all. I appreciate that DH understands and isn't pushing me to work. Just wish he was a bit more on board if it is something I really want.

Part of my struggle too is that a am 43 so I feel I need to get back into things too rather soon and a career is really want I want long term. If I do various PT things until the kids are even older I will be getting too old to get back into a career. I've been out for 10 years already.

What to do, what to do...

Great discussion!

[icunurse]

When DS was born, I "quit" work - meaning that I went PRN as a nurse and can pretty much work as much or as little as I want to. I average about 5-6 shifts/month right now and that seems pretty comfortable for us. It keeps my résumé current, plus I actually like what I do.

I used to think that when both kids were in school FT, I would go back to work PT, maybe even FT. But I am finding that between finding childcare (and the costs of it), the kids schedules, and just wanting to be present for a lot of things (games, practices, getting off the bus, etc), it isn't quite as smooth of a transition as I thought it would be. Kids seem to require *more* time/supervision with homework, social lives and life in general as they get older. So, for now, I am just staying out with my current situation. I am hoping, though, to try and get into some volunteer work within my field next year.

[westwoodmom04]

I stayed home for five years after getting pregnant with my first (moved for dh's job and didn't see a point in getting a job myself at that point). When I went back to work, both my kids were in preschool. As I've noted in other threads, it didn't take too long to get a good law job and I really didn't feel at all rusty once I started working. Once my oldest started elementary, it became clear that my working f/t wasn't going to work for my family (mostly because of homework, all my dd's other activities, and a spouse who works long hours and has no flexibility). I had an outrageous commute, and once I went to p/t I was actually losing money. In total, I was at that job for a little more than two years. It was overall a great experience, I did like being back in the grown up world, and I got some great new references to use.

I've since been home for a little more than a year. I have been using that time to catch up all the stuff that piled up,and think about what I want to do long term. I plan to start looking for something to do p/t next fall when my youngest starts kinder. It doesn't need to be paid (we are positioned on the tax bracket in a place where most of my income will be eaten up by taxes) but just something that will help me keep my resume fresh and help lead ultimately to a paid position long term.

I know there is some risk being out of the workforce, but I am comfortable with it. DH is well-insured so if something tragic were to happen, I would have plenty of time to get back on my feet.

[mommylamb]

Not a SAHM, but I have an aunt who SAH for at least 15 years (she worked when her son was young, but then actually decided to SAH when he got to school age. I know that seems backwards, but they were moving around a bit and that's what worked for them), and then went back and got a Masters in Library Science and re-entered the workforce in her early 50s when her son was in college. She is so unbelievably happy to be working again and says she never ever wants to retire. She totally changed fields though. Before her son was born, and when he was a youngster, she was a lab tech, and now she's a school librarian. I'm really proud of her for having the courage to go back to school at that age, which required her to take the GRE after she had been out of school for 25 years, and for putting herself out there.

[anonomom]

Very timely thread. I'd always said I'd go back to work once my kids were in preschool, but just as DD2 was getting to that age, I got pregnant with DS. We just decided that I will stay home for 2.5 more years -- through DD2's kindergarten year. I could start looking for work the year she goes to Kindy, but frankly I want that year to get our home life back in balance. I'm still trying to find a way to be a decent parent to all three kids and also get our house running like it was before DS came along, and I hope that the year I have DD2 in Kindy and DS in preschool will help me find that equilibrium before I upset the apple cart again.

I'm a lawyer, and I knew when we moved to this area (when I was pregnant with DD1) that finding work in my practice area would be difficult. But I am very flexible and am willing to consider all sorts of jobs and practice areas. I figure that even if I have to start at the bottom again, at least I'll be working and I have time to work my way up. That year before I plan to go back, I will start focusing heavily on getting ready to move back in.

[edurnemk]

I have no plans to return to work as an employee, however I would like to start a small business once my kids are both in Elementary (maybe I'll start when DD is in preschool, but I've found the preschool years to still be pretty demanding).

I worked PT when DS started preschool in fall 2010, and left when DD was born.

I also plan to go back to school to study some subjects that really interest me, but not necessarily to work in that area.

[AngB]

My degree is in teaching and I taught for a few years, have been home for 3 yrs now. I am on the waiting list to go into ultrasound school, but there's only 1 in our area through a community college and I am #130ish with only 24 students taken each year. (Though they told me a 2 yr wait so many must drop off.) Going to school is going to be the hard part (it is full time 5 days a week) and stresses me out already -paying for childcare while I have no income. We also want one more kid so that makes it complicated too, I'm thinking maybe next year when DS2 is almost 2 we'll ttc assuming I'm still far back on the waiting list. Both my parents will be retired and live 5 min away so I am hoping they will help us with childcare at least part time while I am in school. I know it makes more sense to just wait until they are in school to go to school but I just want it done with so I can get back to work sooner than later.

Once I am done with school, I should be able to work part time and make nearly as much as I would have teaching.I am torn b/c I don't really love SAHM that much, I get so antsy, but I do like being home with my kids more than I would if I worked fulltime.

Even though my plan isn't totally ideal, it's nice to have a plan and dh is on board with it.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

not a SAHM anymore but i went back to work when DS was almost 3 and dd was 20 months. i had been out of the industry for over 4 years as i did not work FT when i was pregnant.

[niccig]

I SAHM until DS was 5 and in K, then I went back to school and I'm now part way through MS in Communication Disorders to be a SLP. Before that I was a law librarian. I had started part-time project work when DS was in pre-K for my old employer, and I still do it now. They've offered me full-time jobs. Any other employer, I would have trouble getting work as there's not much available now.

I wanted to be working for a couple of reasons. 1. I wanted to work again in some capacity 2. DH's work has earlier retirement age than most, and while he will do something, we don't know what that will be. 3. We know 2 couples in mid-50's where the DH was laid off and the wife hadn't worked in over 20 yrs. Both wives looked for work, but neither of them could get employed. Both wives have told me several times, I'm smart to be retraining now and told me to stay current with work.

I don't know if I'll be working full-time or part-time as DS is in grade 2 and still needs a parent to pick-up, go to activities etc. I will though keep up some work, so if anything happens to DH or his work, I can increase my hours. We have insurance policies, savings etc, but we need more security than that.

[twowhat?]

When I was a SAHM, I said I'd go back when they're in Kindergarten. But a work opportunity arose when the girls were almost 2 years old and so I decided to just jump on it.

Now that my girls are 4.5 (and I've been working FT for almost 3 years), I am wanting to cut down on my work when they start Kindergarten! LOL! I can totally see the whole sentiment from moms of older kids who say it gets BUSIER when they start school, etc! But not only that, but school-aged kids (at least mine) start really wanting their parents to attend school functions, etc...and get upset when they can't (guilt trip!).

So - I am hoping to negotiate a less-intense role once my kids are in public school. At the very least I would like to cut out regular travel. At the very best, I would love to work a flexible 25-30 hrs/week.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I can totally see the whole sentiment from moms of older kids who say it gets BUSIER when they start school, etc!



yeah i wonder about this too! i have at least 2 years since my oldest starts K and dread when all the events/practices come up...don't know how we'll manage it all. it is such a delicate balance as it is, with only swimclass 1x a week. i can't really do part-time..it is just so rare in my field. i don't want to do anything else though!! this is part of the reason DH is considering in a few years starting his own business, doing consulting and going part-time..so he can have more time for kids activities. my pipe dream is to be able work FT with DH who only works PT and handles bulk of the kids/household stuff.

[twowhat?]

yeah i wonder about this too! i have at least 2 years since my oldest starts K and dread when all the events/practices come up...don't know how we'll manage it all. it is such a delicate balance as it is, with only swimclass 1x a week. i can't really do part-time..it is just so rare in my field. i don't want to do anything else though!! this is part of the reason DH is considering in a few years starting his own business, doing consulting and going part-time..so he can have more time for kids activities. my pipe dream is to be able work FT with DH who only works PT and handles bulk of the kids/household stuff.

Yup, we want exactly this, but in reverse! DH is happier in a more challenging job so he'd be the one to take on the FT demanding travel-heavy job and I would be the one with a more flexible schedule/fewer hours to handle most of the kids/household stuff. Fingers cross for both of us and anyone else wanting the same that something can be worked out! :)

[hellokitty]

This is always kind of on my mind, and obviously it is on many sahms' minds, since this topic seems to come up rather often here at the BBB. For reference, I have two BS degrees (got into grad school, but chose the more practical degree over the masters). The last time I worked as an RN was 9 yrs ago. I did apply to one job last yr and got an interview (which was the most brutal interview I had ever been on, even if I was still working as an RN, the questions they asked would have been hard, I actually felt like they were harder on me on purpose, since I have been out of the field), but in the end was relieved that I didn't get the position, since it would be a logistical nightmare in terms of childcare.

I have no idea what I want to do. To be honest, I was definitely burnt out on hospital nursing when I left. I also did some occ health, which I could see possibly doing again, but probably wouldn't be able to get my foot back in the door unless I went back and, "do my time" in hospital nursing for a yr or two before looking for non-hospital jobs. DH's job really complicates things for us. He has an erratic schedule, that often changes throughout the day, he is also on call 50% of the yr, and childcare is an issue. We have family an hr away, but even then, they are not willing to help, so it is all on us to figure it out. RNs also don't make the $$$ as higher powered positions, so I have to figure out if it is worth my time to work PT, while paying for childcare. There is no way I could figure out how to NOT pay before and after school childcare, even for my school aged kids, it sucks.

I always thought that it would be easy to return to work when my kids were school aged, but I realized during my experience last yr applying for that job, that if I worked, my kids would be in ZERO after school activities. Who is going to take them? I wouldn't be able to, DH's schedule is all over the place. We aren't even THAT involved in a ton of activities. Luckily, dh makes a decent living and we live in a low COL. My youngest has 3 yrs before starting kindergarten (and you have to get into a lottery if you want full day). I am in the process of trying to decide whether to get yet another degree to switch careers with more stable WEEKDAY hours (one thing that really sucks about nursing is having to do wknd hours, my dh barely get any wknds off to begin with, so that would mean I would have to work on wknds he is off, meaning zero wknd family time), or whether I should stick it out in nursing, or go for my advanced practice degree. I'm just afraid that if go back to re-educate, that my degree will be, "wasted," again. If anything, I do not see myself returning to the workforce full time. I'd be part time, until at least the kids go off to college, but with my youngest being 3, that's another 16 yrs away. I keep trying to convince myself to try to use my RN, instead of going back to school, but am having a hard time doing it, due to feeling so burnt out when I left to be a sahm yrs ago, I feel a sense of dread.

I am a LLL leader, and the option of becoming a LC is definitely an option for me, the big problem there is that LCs in our area barely make any $ and they are under-utilized. So, then I wonder if it will be another, "waste" for me to pursue my IBCLC (which would also req me probably to go back to work, but on an OB unit to gain experience), for it to be more of a hobby job, more than anything. The LC we work closely with now, complained to my co-leader that with the new way health insurance is set up, she is not even sure if she can continue being a LC anymore, that she would make even less than what she's making now. So, I haven't even looked into that part to see if this would be financially worth it or not. However, becoming a LC would make the most sense in my situation, since it is what I have kept up with while being a sahm, even though I was previously a critical nurse, not OB. It would req more training, exams and certification, but would not req another degree. I am still stewing over what to do.

[AnnieW625]

yeah i wonder about this too! i have at least 2 years since my oldest starts K and dread when all the events/practices come up...don't know how we'll manage it all. it is such a delicate balance as it is, with only swimclass 1x a week. i can't really do part-time..it is just so rare in my field. ....

You just do. I won't sugar coat the issue it is tough, but we make it work. I take a lot of time off to go my kids things. I took a whole afternoon off to watch DD1 in the spelling bee that lasted maybe 30 minutes (and she was kicked out in the second round). Had DD1's teacher not emailed me about it I would have never known DD1 was participating as she wouldn't have told me but I am glad I went. I took off half a day to go to the Mother's Day lunch at kindergarten, the family lunch during Catholic Schools Week this school year, and a full day off to go the field trip to the Pumpkin Patch, and I hated backing out of the field trip this year, but I wouldn't have had it any other way, I love taking time off work to attend my kids stuff. I don't have back up care usually so when daycare is closed we take our vacation. It is just the way it is. You will eventually adjust to all of it and it just takes time. I'll be honest I would love to work part time and hope as my kids get older that becomes a possibility so I can take them to whatever activity they want to do, but I just have to juggle things and keep calm.

And if your DH does want to start a business and needs a ME consultant you know where to find one (and DH is more than willing to move to Texas;))

[bisous]

I want to rejoin the workforce when my youngest is in 1st grade or thereabouts. But only part-time. I know that is going to be difficult to find and I'm starting to think and plan for that now. I would really like to be home and available to my kids all throughout high school if possible. Once they are in college (when I'll be a whopping 55 years old!) I wouldn't mind working full time but we'll see.

[MommyAllison]

I have no idea. I homeschool our kids, so I'm looking at 17 years from now (or more if we have dc4) before I'd be finished homeschooling and could start working. I will not be able to return to my field, and am not sure if/what I'll want to do by then. I voted other.

[westwoodmom04]

If nothing else, this thread shows there is so much demand for part-time work among highly skilled/educated women.

[KpbS]

I'm a lawyer who has been at home for coming up on 9 years. The law in my subspecialty changed significantly shortly after I left w/ DS1. There is a really small chance I'd go back and be very part time in 4 years but I really doubt it.

[maestramommy]

Ideally I'd like to go back once DD3 is in school full day, which is 1st grade. the trouble is I recently realized that soon after the kids will be in 3 different schools for some time, which means 3 different bus schedules, conferences in 3 different places. I just don't know how we are going to manage this if I am working even as a sub in our district. I might have to hire a sitter for just an hour a day to meet the kids when they get off the bus, which sounds like an impossibility at this point. Who the heck wants to work for one hour a day? In the middle of the afternoon?

[lalasmama]

My goal is to be back to work now... We've moved, DD is settled into her new school, and is in love with the aftercare. I'm looking, looking, looking--and nothing is coming up.

I'll be changing careers once DD is in middle school and can get home/stay at home on her own for a few hours. I couldn't see starting school, and trying to do midwifery clinicals as a single mom with a young child, so I always knew I would wait until middle school.

I'd love to be part-time, but babies don't have watches, so I'll just make a point to keep my client load on the lower side of things.