Consequences for hurting another child?

[rin]

DD1 just got sent home from preschool for attacking another girl in her class with a stick. What would you do?

She's having quiet time right now, and when she gets out I thought we would work on a "sorry" card for the other girl.

Does anyone have any other advice/suggestions on how to handle this? Both DH & I are pretty disturbed by this.

[hillview]

on a one off basis? The apology card seems like enough. Did you talk to her about why it happened etc? If it was something that happened before or on multiple occasions I'd worry more. I'd assume the teachers take care of it. That said not sure what you mean by attacked another girl with a stick.

[sste]

How old is she? Do you have a sense if it was impulse control? Not realizing the stick was dangerous/could hurt? Other?

Impulse control is obviously the hardest one for you to deal with -- and no hope of dealing with that from home. If she is having impulse control issues then she may need more supervision during "unstructured" times such as free play our outdoor play.

If it is some other, I try to focus a lot on giving my kids other options - - so role playing the kid saying "I don't like that" (rather than whacking with a stick), asking the teacher for help, walking away, etc. Whatever you might think would work for your DD.

These things happen. I would be freaked out too but it is sort of a fine line with how to handle it with the DC. Only once our DS gave our DD, then age 1.5, a brutal shove and knocked her off her feet (he does plenty of minor nudges and pushes, but this was really violent). DH and I were visibly horrified, talked to DS in the strongest tones we have ever used . . . and he ended up genuinely hysterical, crying, asking us if we still loved him after he did such a bad thing.

[mom3boys]

I think the apology card is enough but I'd be interesting in hearing the whole story. If one of my DS' "attacked another child with a stick", I'd think that the kids were playing "swordfights" with sticks and that one kid got hit with the stick. Not that that is acceptable but it is not really malicious.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I think the apology card is enough but I'd be interesting in hearing the whole story. If one of my DS' "attacked another child with a stick", I'd think that the kids were playing "swordfights" with sticks and that one kid got hit with the stick. Not that that is acceptable but it is not really malicious.

:yeahthat:

also, how old is she? my ds (3) will sometimes be playing wtih dd (2), each whacking each other with a towel or something, thinking it's funny, but occasionally with one hits the other a bit too hard or in the face or something, then it's all "wah, she hit me!".

[rin]

Thanks everyone.

DD is almost 3.

This was not a mutual swordplay type thing; from what DD told me, it sounds like she was playing by herself with some sticks and the other girl came over and tried to take them (well, DD thought the girl was trying to take them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the other girl just wanted to play with her). The teacher became aware of it because the other girl was lying on the ground and DD was hitting her with a stick. When I got to the school, both DD and the other girl were sitting in the office. The other girl has two or three scratches on her head and her cheek; one of them deep enough to bleed (not gushing blood, but more than just puffy skin.

I am pretty concerned; this doesn't sound like a game that got out of control.

We talked about better ways to let someone know you don't want to play with them/don't want them to touch your things (tell them "no thank you, I feel like playing alone right now", if they want to play with your sticks/toys, find them something else to play with).

She didn't really seem remorseful at all, which was probably the most disturbing thing to me. She only seemed upset that she didn't get a Band-aid/special ice pack like the other girl.

[Momit]

I am also curious about what happened that caused the school to call it an "attack." That sounds as if your DD hid behind a bush, jumped out and clobbered another child.

I've never heard of a child at our preschool being sent home for a behavior issue - parents get a note that evening saying "So and so bit a friend" or whatever. So first I would find out more details from the school, if you haven't already. Like PPs I would be inclined to think it was an accident during play unless I knew otherwise.

If she did react in anger, teach her other coping strategies - stomping her foot, yelling "stop that!" etc. Our DS is 4.5 and has recently started having some angry outbursts, when he was previously a pretty easygoing kid. We've been working on getting him to

The card is a nice idea, I don't think you need to do more. But still I would get the whole story before giving it to the other kid so you don't make a bigger deal than it needs to be.

ETA Cross posted with you, OP. I am still surprised that your school would send her home over that. I don't think it's odd that she's not remorseful, she's not yet 3 and she didn't want to share her sticks.

[sste]

Rin, I think it may be a developmental/cognitive limitation -- at not quite three, this may not be real to her in a way she can understand. And I think kids develop morality/empathy quite a bit later. It is rather disturbing as parents to watch that (slow) development of moral reasoning though . . .

[JBaxter]

Thanks everyone.

DD is almost 3.

This was not a mutual swordplay type thing; from what DD told me, it sounds like she was playing by herself with some sticks and the other girl came over and tried to take them (well, DD thought the girl was trying to take them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the other girl just wanted to play with her). The teacher became aware of it because the other girl was lying on the ground and DD was hitting her with a stick. When I got to the school, both DD and the other girl were sitting in the office. The other girl has two or three scratches on her head and her cheek; one of them deep enough to bleed (not gushing blood, but more than just puffy skin.

I am pretty concerned; this doesn't sound like a game that got out of control.

We talked about better ways to let someone know you don't want to play with them/don't want them to touch your things (tell them "no thank you, I feel like playing alone right now", if they want to play with your sticks/toys, find them something else to play with).

She didn't really seem remorseful at all, which was probably the most disturbing thing to me. She only seemed upset that she didn't get a Band-aid/special ice pack like the other girl.
Good grief ALMOST 3? Time out and saying I'm sorry is all that is needed. No she's not remorseful because again she "almost 3" Toddlers do things like that. We < as adults> correct them tell them what they did is wrong , give time out or take away toys etc but I think you are going over board with this. Impulse control or lack there of is very common at that age. I would have her say she is sorry give her the time out and drop it. The card will be coming from you not her. One of mine wasn't even verbal at that age and struck out a lot because he was learning communication skills. Its not something to make light of but not a huge deal.

[hillview]

Good grief ALMOST 3? Time out and saying I'm sorry is all that is needed. No she's not remorseful because again she "almost 3" Toddlers do things like that. We < as adults> correct them tell them what they did is wrong , give time out or take away toys etc but I think you are going over board with this. Impulse control or lack there of is very common at that age. I would have her say she is sorry give her the time out and drop it. The card will be coming from you not her. One of mine wasn't even verbal at that age and struck out a lot because he was learning communication skills. Its not something to make light of but not a huge deal.
:yeahthat: at this age. The teachers need to manage the playground situation. I'd drop it. I'd also try to reframe it for myself as DD hit another child with a stick (vs attacked) and that maybe talking about sharing and using words (which I am sure you already do) would come into play/role play. But at 3 this would be normal behavior.

[rin]

Good grief ALMOST 3? Time out and saying I'm sorry is all that is needed. No she's not remorseful because again she "almost 3" Toddlers do things like that. We < as adults> correct them tell them what they did is wrong , give time out or take away toys etc but I think you are going over board with this. Impulse control or lack there of is very common at that age. I would have her say she is sorry give her the time out and drop it. The card will be coming from you not her. One of mine wasn't even verbal at that age and struck out a lot because he was learning communication skills. Its not something to make light of but not a huge deal.

I guess we're taking our cues from the school. They seem very concerned about this, and they're making noises about asking her to not come back in the fall (not based just on this, but also several other things, like they can't get her to be quiet at naptime, she is defiant and won't follow instructions to put on her shoes, etc). I don't spend a lot of time around other kids her age, so I'm kind of following the school's lead on how serious this issues is. I definitely don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I also don't want to be dismissive of something that the school is telling us is problematic.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

i agree with Jbaxter. ds will sometimes hit dd or vice versa...we have child go to time out for a couple minutes, tell the other sorry, that's it. impulse control is still lacking at this age.

[hillview]

I guess we're taking our cues from the school. They seem very concerned about this, and they're making noises about asking her to not come back in the fall (not based just on this, but also several other things, like they can't get her to be quiet at naptime, she is defiant and won't follow instructions to put on her shoes, etc). I don't spend a lot of time around other kids her age, so I'm kind of following the school's lead on how serious this issues is. I definitely don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I also don't want to be dismissive of something that the school is telling us is problematic.
:grouphug: that is tough I am sorry. Do you like the school? Is it a good fit for your DD? Are the teachers pretty experienced? If so, I'd go in and meet with the teachers. I'd show them you are all in for sort this out and work with them to figure out what is going on. Your DD is VERY young. DS2 was an outlier but it really wasn't til he was 5 that the teachers were pretty focused on it (and we got him evaluated). What is DD like at home?

[SnuggleBuggles]

:yeahthat: at this age. The teachers need to manage the playground situation. I'd drop it. I'd also try to reframe it for myself as DD hit another child with a stick (vs attacked) and that maybe talking about sharing and using words (which I am sure you already do) would come into play/role play. But at 3 this would be normal behavior.

:yeahthat: Joining the bandwagon here. I really wouldn't make a big deal out of this. She's 2yo. Not showing remorse, like you as an adult expect, at this age really doesn't mean much or that she is going to be a serial killer. :) Plenty of little ones bite, hit...and don't quite get it till they are older. It is hard to handle as a parent but in this case, the situation is over and it's time to move on.

[JBaxter]

I guess we're taking our cues from the school. They seem very concerned about this, and they're making noises about asking her to not come back in the fall (not based just on this, but also several other things, like they can't get her to be quiet at naptime, she is defiant and won't follow instructions to put on her shoes, etc). I don't spend a lot of time around other kids her age, so I'm kind of following the school's lead on how serious this issues is. I definitely don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I also don't want to be dismissive of something that the school is telling us is problematic.

Is this daycare or preschool? I can tell you from having 4 its normal it happens everything you listed is 2/3 behavior. Jack still has days he gets time out at preschool and he's 4.5 < doesnt listen, pushes/ is mean to friends> They deal with it. Other than days he gets a red < we go straight home those days> We talk about it I ask him what he did wrong and what he would do next time then drop it. Not every preschool is a fit for every kid.

[fedoragirl]

My first reaction (without even reading the other posts) would be to switch schools. Easier said than done but really, if the teachers are making a big deal about this and being "defiant" at age 3, then this is probably not the best fit for your DD. Or the teachers need a training course in child development.
I would not even bother with a card. Kids that age don't attach any value to cards. I have a 3 year old.
I would just ask DD to go over and apologize to the other girl in front of you. And just script how you want her to handle playing with others.
IMO, she's not almost 3....she's 2. And developmentally, there is a difference.

[Philly Mom]

I guess we're taking our cues from the school. They seem very concerned about this, and they're making noises about asking her to not come back in the fall (not based just on this, but also several other things, like they can't get her to be quiet at naptime, she is defiant and won't follow instructions to put on her shoes, etc). I don't spend a lot of time around other kids her age, so I'm kind of following the school's lead on how serious this issues is. I definitely don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I also don't want to be dismissive of something that the school is telling us is problematic.

This seems like an overreaction by the school. Are they used to very passive kids?

[rin]

:grouphug: that is tough I am sorry. Do you like the school? Is it a good fit for your DD? Are the teachers pretty experienced? If so, I'd go in and meet with the teachers. I'd show them you are all in for sort this out and work with them to figure out what is going on. Your DD is VERY young. DS2 was an outlier but it really wasn't til he was 5 that the teachers were pretty focused on it (and we got him evaluated). What is DD like at home?

We do like the school, but I'm starting to wonder if it's a good fit for DD.

It's a Montessori school, which we'd thought she would love because she's very into being independent & doing everything herself, plus she's super into reading/writing (she's already writing/reading a few words, like writing her name or some other short words like "cat" and picking out the words in some of her favorite books) and we liked the idea of her being able to work/play with things at her own pace/interest levels. One of the biggest problems is that she just flat-out refuses to do things and they haven;t been able to figure out a currency to make her do them. At home, our biggest consequence for her (aside from just natural consequences) is spending time alone in her room until she's ready to do the thing, but they don't seem to be able to get that to work at school, since she apparently just won't stay put in the time-out chair, and the principal's office is fun for her.

We initially decided against a play-based school because we thought she would benefit from the structure at the Montessori school.

This is already her second preschool; she was asked to leave her last school because they couldn't get her to be quiet at naptime. She stopped napping at about 18 months, and tries to wake the other children up.

[sste]

Hmm, wondering about preschool fit too. IMO the exceptional preschools tend to be the ones that are committed to working with children and families -- not cherrypicking and dumping the less developmentally mature kids! Just in terms of what you might look for: Our preschool has a full "inclusion" policy for special needs kids (not saying your DD is this but if a preschool accepts kids with learning, behavior, emotional difficulties they are going to accept your slightly defiant DD). Our preschool also has connections with a variety of child professionals in the group -- when I have asked they have been able to refer me to parent "coaches" and behaviorists, a social skills group, and they recently suggested an OT evaluation. I am also confident that the teachers at my school would be experimenting with different things -- a special reward system for your DD, a visual schedule, more help at transitions etc -- rather than just making noises about booting a child.

I am just going by your one quick comment . . . but I would be feeling irritated with the preschool too at this point. They are in school with the child but they seem to me to be suggesting you need to solve the problem from home?!?

ETA: Why don't you try to find a pediatric behaviorist or therapist that can give you some suggestions. Some kids are more challenging on the behavior front to be sure but it absolutely can be improved, often far more rapidly than parents think.

[belovedgandp]

I have to chime in that it is developmentally appropriate and having a deeper understanding is way hard at not yet 3.

I've had one child be bitten and one child be the biter in preschool at just over 3. Both of them are hard mommy moments, but I will let you know that I was much more upset when DS2 was the biter than when DS1 was bitten. DS2 had one really hard week at school at 3 years and 2 months but then was fine.

[rin]

Hmm, wondering about preschool fit too. IMO the exceptional preschools tend to be the ones that are committed to working with children and families -- not cherrypicking and dumping the less developmentally mature kids! Just in terms of what you might look for: Our preschool has a full "inclusion" policy for special needs kids (not saying your DD is this but if a preschool accepts kids with learning, behavior, emotional difficulties they are going to accept your slightly defiant DD). Our preschool also has connections with a variety of child professionals in the group -- when I have asked they have been able to refer me to parent "coaches" and behaviorists, a social skills group, and they recently suggested an OT evaluation. I am also confident that the teachers at my school would be experimenting with different things -- a special reward system for your DD, a visual schedule, more help at transitions etc -- rather than just making noises about booting a child.

I am just going by your one quick comment . . . but I would be feeling irritated with the preschool too at this point. They are in school with the child but they seem to me to be suggesting you need to solve the problem from home?!?

ETA: Why don't you try to find a pediatric behaviorist or therapist that can give you some suggestions. Some kids are more challenging on the behavior front to be sure but it absolutely can be improved, often far more rapidly than parents think.

The school you have sounds great. Thank you for that suggestion; I might start making some phone calls about other schools. Is the standard term "full inclusion for children with special needs"?

We actually just had an appointment with her pediatrician asking for some recommendations for a therapist. The real issue is honestly that a lot of this is stuff that we don;t have issues with at home, so I'm just not sure how much a family play therapy session is going to help us with her not listening to her teachers or hitting kids at school. We do want to get some sort of input from someone with professional experience, though, since what the school is telling us about her behavior is very different from our experience at home, and it's just hard for us to know what to think.

[hillview]

My boys are in montessori. They have hit and been bit but never had anyone sent home. How is your DD at home? Playdates? Birthday parties? Since this is the second school while ALL the school reactions seem way over the top to me and your DD sounds like NORMAL 2 year old behavior I might have her evaluated just to check in on things. Do you ever feel your DD is off or do you think it is the school(s) being crazy?

[hillview]

can you go observe the class? I did that at DS2's classroom and it was very informative. Most all montessori schools encourage this from parents.

[Philly Mom]

The school you have sounds great. Thank you for that suggestion; I might start making some phone calls about other schools. Is the standard term "full inclusion for children with special needs"?

We actually just had an appointment with her pediatrician asking for some recommendations for a therapist. The real issue is honestly that a lot of this is stuff that we don;t have issues with at home, so I'm just not sure how much a family play therapy session is going to help us with her not listening to her teachers or hitting kids at school. We do want to get some sort of input from someone with professional experience, though, since what the school is telling us about her behavior is very different from our experience at home, and it's just hard for us to know what to think.

If you don't have the problems at home, then I think it is a school fit.

[trales]

I am usually the one sitting back and reading these posts thinking, well good for the teachers, or things like that. But in this case I think there is some kind of overreaction/ strange reaction from the school.

When DD was that age, she was whacked with a stick, bit, punched, pushed and pinched. We were told about everyone. Did I like it, no, but is it normal behavior that you kind of have to accept at daycare/ preschool, yes.

If I were you I would want to sit down with the teachers/ director and have a discussion on what age appropriate behavior is, how it is they feel you child deviates from this behavior, how do they manage behavior and what are their expectations.

If it turns out the expectation is that she is always quiet at rest time, takes a nap immediately when ordered, always keeps her hands to herself and never says no or questions the teacher, then you need to move on.

Children hit, whack, bite, pinch etc, a good preschool will manage those behaviors and teach/ model children to make different choices.

I am sorry you feel so bad, it sounds like your kid is normal and the expectations are not developmentally appropriate.

[squimp]

One of DD's friends had an experience like that at our Montessori preschool. She was asked to leave for very minor issues. Our M classrooms had a lot of kids (24 preschoolers) and they relied on the kids being within a certain range of behaviors. Kids who fall outside that range were seen as challenging and difficult rather than just normal kids needing re-direction. I remember seeing this little girl being punished and sitting with her head down at her desk, very sad. I think the desired behavior range is a smaller range than other preschools - we were in daycare with this girl for a year prior to Montessori and yes she was active and spunky but fairly normal. For some reason, girls misbehaving seemed more challenging to the system/teachers than boys misbehaving. I would come observe the classroom and see what you think. You may want to consider another preschool rather than have her labeled as a difficult kid.

[AngB]

ETA Cross posted with you, OP. I am still surprised that your school would send her home over that. I don't think it's odd that she's not remorseful, she's not yet 3 and she didn't want to share her sticks.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

I worked in daycare with 2 year olds. We sent kids home exactly ONE TIME in my several years there--and that was for a chronic biter who managed to bite like 5 ppl including both teachers in like 3 hours. That was it. Even biting was considered generally usually our bad for not shadowing the kid more closely.

Not that what she did was ok/good, but from what I understand, extreme overreaction on the part of the school.

AND

1) Why are there sticks on their playground large enough to hit someone? (On a playground for 2/3 y.o.'s)

2)WTF were the teachers doing while DD was swinging around sticks (even by herself) in the first place?

ETA:And this was my immediate response before reading the rest of the thread. I would definitely start looking around. DS1 is going to an 'inclusion' preschool in the fall (as a non-special needs kid), ours is through the United Services. It is fantastic. Highly accredited, every room I saw was just perfect with teachers fully engaged with all the kids and tons of hands on activities.

[sste]

Rin, what I would ask is "what is your school's policy on inclusion"? Many schools may not be full inclusion in that they don't have staff to take on certain special needs (mine actually does -- I wish you lived near me!). But they may still be much more open to inclusion and to working with parents than your present school. I would also ask around to get parent recs.


It may be that your DD will just naturally do better in something play-based and with a smaller class size. The montessoris I have seen are often larger class sizes and tend to require a fair amount of "self-starting" relative to "creative curriculum" or "reggio-emilio" oriented schools. That said, obviously some montessoris are fantastic and smaller class size . . . but I think one way many maintain larger class sizes/fewer teachers is by admitting and retaining quite well-behaved kids.

[mom3boys]

I guess we're taking our cues from the school. They seem very concerned about this, and they're making noises about asking her to not come back in the fall (not based just on this, but also several other things, like they can't get her to be quiet at naptime, she is defiant and won't follow instructions to put on her shoes, etc). I don't spend a lot of time around other kids her age, so I'm kind of following the school's lead on how serious this issues is. I definitely don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I also don't want to be dismissive of something that the school is telling us is problematic.

You know, I had similar issues with DS1 in his first preschool. He was not quite 3 when he started. I got complaints a lot, some that seemed valid (he hit a teacher) some that seemed like they were overreacting (there was a period of time he liked to pretend to be a dog, and he would only answer to his dog name, and he would answer by barking. The teachers complained. I was basically like, "So why can't you call him his dog name?" It started to become clear to me that once he was considered the "ill-behaved" kid, the teachers were just on him more than ever. I started dreading sending him to school because there was always the possibility I'd get pulled in to another discussion about how difficult he was. He was my first child and I didn't spend a lot of time with other 3 year-olds so I also had little frame of reference. It ended with the director basically telling me that they thought he'd "be better off somewhere else" the next fall. FWIW my neighbor also sent his son to the same school and pulled him out a month early over a disagreement with the director (but some parents loved it. I guess they had the "good kids").

Well, what choice did we have, we moved him to another school. The teachers at his other school adored him. They acknowledged he had some difficulties relating to socializing with other children and he was seen by the school psychologist and eventually by a Dev. Ped. However, he more or less "grew out of" his issues and the Dev. Ped has been reluctant to issue a diagnosis, he is quirky but he has never really been in trouble since preschool. His first grade teacher was surprised when we told her he had been evaluated for developmental/social issues.

So, sorry that was long-winded--it was unfortunate that that was our first experience with preschool, but I wonder if maybe the school's expectations are too high and/or your DD is in the cycle like my DS where complaint begets complaint.

ETA: The first preschool was Montessori -style and they had as many as 35 kids at a time there ages 2.5-5. Lots of teachers, but lots of kids. I moved him to a play-based school where everyone was within 1 year of each other in age (4-year old PreK), 15 kids in a class with 2 teachers. I have been hesitant to use Montessori style for DS2 because of DS1's experience, so stuck with play-based.

[rin]

One of DD's friends had an experience like that at our Montessori preschool. She was asked to leave for very minor issues. Our M classrooms had a lot of kids (24 preschoolers) and they relied on the kids being within a certain range of behaviors. Kids who fall outside that range were seen as challenging and difficult rather than just normal kids needing re-direction. I remember seeing this little girl being punished and sitting with her head down at her desk, very sad. I think the desired behavior range is a smaller range than other preschools - we were in daycare with this girl for a year prior to Montessori and yes she was active and spunky but fairly normal. For some reason, girls misbehaving seemed more challenging to the system/teachers than boys misbehaving. I would come observe the classroom and see what you think. You may want to consider another preschool rather than have her labeled as a difficult kid.


It may be that your DD will just naturally do better in something play-based and with a smaller class size. The montessoris I have seen are often larger class sizes and tend to require a fair amount of "self-starting" relative to "creative curriculum" or "reggio-emilio" oriented schools. That said, obviously some montessoris are fantastic and smaller class size . . . but I think one way many maintain larger class sizes/fewer teachers is by admitting and retaining quite well-behaved kids.

Yes, I do think there's something about her getting labeled as the "bad kid". She has not been aggressive at all at her school until this past week, and then last week she apparent pushed a child, then hit someone else, and then the stick incident today. The school has been becoming more and more frustrated with her at naptime, and they've been trying different things (putting her in a different classroom, etc) and I think they're about the throw up their hands. DD is super sensitive to negative attention, and at home we are always very careful to not focus on negative behavior, because it seems like she just gets into a "naughty rut" and just starts spiraling out doing more and more negative things. When she thinks she's been particularly bad, for example if we told her she was in trouble, she'll go into her room and throw all the clothes out of her dresser, but when we tell her to go into her room and think about how she can be can be more gentle to her sister, she'll usually sit calmly in her armchair and rock her baby doll.



You know, I had similar issues with DS1 in his first preschool. He was not quite 3 when he started. I got complaints a lot, some that seemed valid (he hit a teacher) some that seemed like they were overreacting (there was a period of time he liked to pretend to be a dog, and he would only answer to his dog name, and he would answer by barking. The teachers complained. I was basically like, "So why can't you call him his dog name?" It started to become clear to me that once he was considered the "ill-behaved" kid, the teachers were just on him more than ever. I started dreading sending him to school because there was always the possibility I'd get pulled in to another discussion about how difficult he was. He was my first child and I didn't spend a lot of time with other 3 year-olds so I also had little frame of reference. It ended with the director basically telling me that they thought he'd "be better off somewhere else" the next fall. FWIW my neighbor also sent his son to the same school and pulled him out a month early over a disagreement with the director (but some parents loved it. I guess they had the "good kids").

Well, what choice did we have, we moved him to another school. The teachers at his other school adored him. They acknowledged he had some difficulties relating to socializing with other children and he was seen by the school psychologist and eventually by a Dev. Ped. However, he more or less "grew out of" his issues and the Dev. Ped has been reluctant to issue a diagnosis, he is quirky but he has never really been in trouble since preschool. His first grade teacher was surprised when we told her he had been evaluated for developmental/social issues.

So, sorry that was long-winded--it was unfortunate that that was our first experience with preschool, but I wonder if maybe the school's expectations are too high and/or your DD is in the cycle like my DS where complaint begets complaint.

ETA: The first preschool was Montessori -style and they had as many as 35 kids at a time there ages 2.5-5. Lots of teachers, but lots of kids. I moved him to a play-based school where everyone was within 1 year of each other in age (4-year old PreK), 15 kids in a class with 2 teachers. I have been hesitant to use Montessori style for DS2 because of DS1's experience, so stuck with play-based.

This is such an encouraging story. Thank you for sharing this! I really appreciate it. This all just makes me want to cry. I don't even recognize the child they describe in the reports to home, and it makes me wonder if we're in denial (which makes me feel like we're crazy) or if we're torturing her with a school that is terrible for her. The thing is, her teachers seem to love her, and they're always hugging her and she seems to love them too (the principal seems pretty exasperated by her, though), so it's just so hard to know what to think.

[mytwosons]

I'll join the chorus to look for another preschool.

DS's first preschool experience was awful. He was labeled the bad kid and nothing was going to change their minds. It was only somewhat reassuring when both independent observers expressed concern to me about the school. (They were there to observe my son, but thought the school could do many things to improve. Eg: They wanted him to sit still at story time, but they didn't even have shapes on the carpet for the kids to sit on.) I resisted moving him until it became clear they were going to kick him out. I can't believe I waited so long! He switched to a university-run child development program and did GREAT! The teachers all had early childhood degrees and the school had a much better ratio. Night and day difference.

[mom3boys]

This is such an encouraging story. Thank you for sharing this! I really appreciate it. This all just makes me want to cry. I don't even recognize the child they describe in the reports to home, and it makes me wonder if we're in denial (which makes me feel like we're crazy) or if we're torturing her with a school that is terrible for her. The thing is, her teachers seem to love her, and they're always hugging her and she seems to love them too (the principal seems pretty exasperated by her, though), so it's just so hard to know what to think.

I felt the same way. I did not see the same child at home that the director was describing. My nanny at the time used to do a lot of school pick ups and also mentioned that the directors were complaining about DS' behavior to her, but that DS was fine with her (she was DS' nanny since he was a baby). Also, DS is often quite affectionate to adults, and a few of the assistant teachers at the first school seemed quite attached to him (he would always want to sit in their laps and such during story time). I think he was just kind of immature and had a lot of issues with impulse control and the directors did not or could not deal with it with so many other children in the room. I was upset about it, but even the directors told me "This environment is a poor fit for DS, but we don't think you'll have to deal with these issues every school year" and they were right.

[JBaxter]

I only did 1/2 day preschool with mine since I was a SAHM. I refused to pay someone to have my child nap. Believe me everything you have said about your child is normal..... VERY normal. Like the others we have been hit bit pushed shoved colored on etc and did our fare share of the same. Right now Jacks school runs 845-1230

[squimp]

I don't even recognize the child they describe in the reports to home, and it makes me wonder if we're in denial (which makes me feel like we're crazy) or if we're torturing her with a school that is terrible for her. The thing is, her teachers seem to love her, and they're always hugging her and she seems to love them too (the principal seems pretty exasperated by her, though), so it's just so hard to know what to think.

I am totally projecting my Montessori experience, but our director seemed to have this really theoretical view of how kids are or how they are supposed to be, while the teachers were more in touch. Our director told us that preschoolers did not have the capacity for imaginary play. I beg to differ! So it could be that the director is giving a slightly distant picture from reality. I would talk more with the teachers and watch your kid. Your child is the ultimate barometer of a school IME.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

waait a second..i just i re-read original post..did the director actually send your DD home from school for this incident? as in, they called you during the day and said, "come pick up [DD], she hit a kid with a stick."???

If that is the case i'm really flabbergasted, that is such an overreaction IMO. it is one thing for the teacher to tell you about it, but to get the director involved, and to send the kid home....im having a hard time picturing this. DS is 3 and he has done things like pushed DD or try to drag her at school while their classes are together at the playground, and usually what happens is the teacher tells us afterwards (in front of him) when we pick him up. one of ds's teacher is older, fairly old-school and a bit of a yeller, even, yet ds has never gotten anything more than a time out or stern scolding.

i too would be shopping for another preschool. So sorry you have to deal with this.

[AngB]

As far as how to find a school that's a better fit for your DD since that came up, I would start by looking up places that are NAEYC accredited. (National Association for Education of the Young Child). http://families.naeyc.org/find-quality-child-care

I have been working at centers when their accreditation is up for renewal, it is a tough accreditation to get and to keep, they do tend to be a little bit more expensive but maybe not much more than a Montessori program already is (?) (IDK, I personally am a very big fan of play-based learning for the preschool and under 5 crowd and would steer away Montessori for my own kids.) Anyway, they have very appropriate expectations for child development and will be much more likely to work with you while also teaching DD. We never would have been allowed to send a kid home for something like that, and I don't understand what (big?) sticks were doing on the playground anyway--we did safety checks every morning and evening before opening which included looking over the playground and locking/unlocking gates and would have caught that sort of thing before it was even an issue...that's the sort of thing that is absolutely part of NAEYC requirements. (Not that a child couldn't hit another child with her hands or a toy, etc., but it's a whole lot less dangerous then a stick, and unlikely to do as much damage.)

ETA: I doubt you will find many/any NAEYC accredited Montessori programs since my understanding is that their philosophies don't really mesh up.

[Indianamom2]

Good grief ALMOST 3? Time out and saying I'm sorry is all that is needed. No she's not remorseful because again she "almost 3" Toddlers do things like that. We < as adults> correct them tell them what they did is wrong , give time out or take away toys etc but I think you are going over board with this. Impulse control or lack there of is very common at that age. I would have her say she is sorry give her the time out and drop it. The card will be coming from you not her. One of mine wasn't even verbal at that age and struck out a lot because he was learning communication skills. Its not something to make light of but not a huge deal.

This exactly. Is your DD not very verbal? That alone could make all the difference. My DD could barely string three words together at that age and it caused a lot of behavior issues.

I wouldn't be overly concerned unless it continues to happen.

[buddyleebaby]

Hitting another child with a stick in in the realm of normal behavior for a two year old. So is not feeling bad about it.

That being said, your dd has shown evidence of sensory issues and/or poor impulse control in the past (throwing a chair at another student, chewing on a power cord, tasting non-food substances, etc.) Combining what you have posted about before with what you have posted about today, and the knowledge that she has already been expelled from one pre-school, I would lean towards investigating if this is something more than just a bad pre-school fit, even while looking for another pre-school. I suspect they are basing the way they react to her on past behaviors, and that's not fair to her. At the same time, I personally would not feel comfortable writing it all off as a school thing in fear that I would find myself in the same situation at a third school a year from now. Get her evaluated, rule out any bigger issues, and then find a place for your baby to thrive. :hug:

[rin]

Hitting another child with a stick in in the realm of normal behavior for a two year old. So is not feeling bad about it.

That being said, your dd has shown evidence of sensory issues and/or poor impulse control in the past (throwing a chair at another student, chewing on a power cord, tasting non-food substances, etc.) Combining what you have posted about before with what you have posted about today, and the knowledge that she has already been expelled from one pre-school, I would lean towards investigating if this is something more than just a bad pre-school fit, even while looking for another pre-school. I suspect they are basing the way they react to her on past behaviors, and that's not fair to her. At the same time, I personally would not feel comfortable writing it all off as a school thing in fear that I would find myself in the same situation at a third school a year from now. Get her evaluated, rule out any bigger issues, and then find a place for your baby to thrive. :hug:

Yes, this is exactly our fear. I really don't want to put her through the upheaval of switching to a new school, just to have the same thing happen again.

Our pediatrician gave us the names of some people we could schedule an appointment with for an evaluation. Unfortunately, we've missed the Early Intervention deadlines (in our state they won't take any appointments 6 months before your child's 3rd birthday, so we weren't able to do that), and we're leery of the public school evaluation.

I honestly don't know what to think. I do think that she's more defiant that most kids her age, and she's an extreme rule-tester, but she's also very focused on projects (when she wants to be), doesn't seem to have concentration issues, and does have one very good friend at school who she loves and plays with very sweetly. However, she doesn't seem to care about the other kids and the teachers say she would rather play alone than play with any of the other kids. Apparently her one friend wasn't there today, and she just wanted to play alone.

And to answer you, Christina, no, she's actually extremely verbal. I wish I could attribute it to her not being able to articulate her thoughts, but even her school has commented on her being verbally articulate. She's also got very good fine motor skills; for example, I just had her write out the apology card (I wrote it out and she copied it).

Thank you so much to everyone for all your thoughts and advice and input! It's very helpful. I do think we'll be scheduling an evaluation of some sort, and I've already made an appointment to tour another school, too. I don't necessarily want to switch schools, since I think she does have such a good relationship with her teachers, but I also don't know that we're going to have the choice pretty soon here.

[westwoodmom04]

Hitting another child with a stick in in the realm of normal behavior for a two year old. So is not feeling bad about it.

That being said, your dd has shown evidence of sensory issues and/or poor impulse control in the past (throwing a chair at another student, chewing on a power cord, tasting non-food substances, etc.) Combining what you have posted about before with what you have posted about today, and the knowledge that she has already been expelled from one pre-school, I would lean towards investigating if this is something more than just a bad pre-school fit, even while looking for another pre-school. I suspect they are basing the way they react to her on past behaviors, and that's not fair to her. At the same time, I personally would not feel comfortable writing it all off as a school thing in fear that I would find myself in the same situation at a third school a year from now. Get her evaluated, rule out any bigger issues, and then find a place for your baby to thrive. :hug:

I agree with this advice; you can't really fairly evaluate at this one incident in isolation, and I agree that the school is probably reacting to a pattern of behavior rather than just one incident. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that you are reluctant to get her evaluated since it seems it is recommended each time you post about an incident but you haven't yet pursued it. I would definitely do so before seeking out a new school as it would provide useful information about what type of school would be the best fit for her, or lead to therapy which might eliminate the need for a different school.

[lmh2402]

I agree with this advice; you can't really fairly evaluate at this one incident in isolation, and I agree that the school is probably reacting to a pattern of behavior rather than just one incident. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that you are reluctant to get her evaluated since it seems it is recommended each time you post about an incident but you haven't yet pursued it. I would definitely do so before seeking out a new school as it would provide useful information about what type of school would be the best fit for her, or lead to therapy which might eliminate the need for a different school.

:yeahthat: i was actually going to write something similar to what Alicia had mentioned, as I remember some of your past threads. And I think I recall from previous posts that the school had specifically said they reco'd having her evaluated for sensory issues by an OT, right? I totally agree that it's basically insane to expect remorse from a child that is not even three - she's still a baby.

But I also think that if I were you, I would be looking at this globally and definitely lining up some evaluations - OT & developmental pedi to start

:hug: - sounds like you and DD had a stressful day

[Still-in-Shock]

I'm wondering if her defiance and "naughty" behaviors are indicators of her being brighter than her peers and more advanced than the program she is in. It's not unusual for a child her age to be pushing boundaries - that's why they call it the terrible 2's. When I was in school, about half of the troublemakers were bored, not bad.

Since you have already talked to your pediatrician about an evaluation, you might as well get that done, so you can rule out any problems. If she has issues and Early Intervention is not available, you will at least have guidelines to help you find the right place for her. If what I suspect is true, and they don't find any thing to worry about, you can then show that to this school, if you choose to stay there.

[rin]

I agree with this advice; you can't really fairly evaluate at this one incident in isolation, and I agree that the school is probably reacting to a pattern of behavior rather than just one incident. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that you are reluctant to get her evaluated since it seems it is recommended each time you post about an incident but you haven't yet pursued it. I would definitely do so before seeking out a new school as it would provide useful information about what type of school would be the best fit for her, or lead to therapy which might eliminate the need for a different school.


:yeahthat: i was actually going to write something similar to what Alicia had mentioned, as I remember some of your past threads. And I think I recall from previous posts that the school had specifically said they reco'd having her evaluated for sensory issues by an OT, right? I totally agree that it's basically insane to expect remorse from a child that is not even three - she's still a baby.

But I also think that if I were you, I would be looking at this globally and definitely lining up some evaluations - OT & developmental pedi to start

:hug: - sounds like you and DD had a stressful day

Thank you ladies. Westwoodmom, you're right, we were initially reluctant to seek an evaluation, but after the last time I posted (and got a number of responses suggesting an evaluation) we tried to set one up with Early Intervention, and were told she was too old (I think she was 2.75 at the time, or so). We asked the school what they thought, and they first told us that they didn't want to make recommendations, but then they had a hypnotherapist come into the classroom, who suggested that it was extreme sibling rivalry issues, which does not (to me) seem to be the problem. (I'm totally willing to think that it could be a contributing factor, but honestly what they're describing doesn't match up at all with what sibling rivalry seems to generally manifest as, with regressions, etc.)

We had actually scheduled an appointment with her pediatrician for this morning to get a referral for a developmental specialist to do an evaluation; we had just come from that appointment, I'd dropped her off at school, and I got the call to come pick her up less than an hour later.

I really appreciate the outside perspective. Sometimes I guess it's easy to get caught up in the moment of the experience and it's very helpful to have a reminder to take a step back and consider things overall.

[dcmom2b3]

1) Why are there sticks on their playground large enough to hit someone? (On a playground for 2/3 y.o.'s)

2)WTF were the teachers doing while DD was swinging around sticks (even by herself) in the first place?


No advice to give OP [comma] but these were my first thoughts as well.

:hug:

[sste]

They suggested hypnotherapy??? Is that even a standard of care type of practice for the issues you describe in a preschooler? That alone is sending up red flags for me.

Along the lines you are thinking, I would def. get whatever evaluations you need -- I imagine the dev. pedi can direct you. One nice thing is that if you go to people in your area for OT, therapy, whatever they are going to have good suggestions about what schools would be a good fit for your DD.

[BunnyBee]

Hypnotherapist? Whaaaaat? Geez, this is why people think Montessori schools are nuts.

My kids have been in Montessori schools from 2 on up, but they were half-day until 5, so no naps. Kids without a SAHP have nannies pick them up.

What is the school doing other than calling you? When a kid is acting out of sorts, our schools have had the child shadow a teacher.

If your gut is telling you to get an eval, then get an eval. Sometimes an outsider's observation is invaluable. They should be able to observe her at school to get a thorough picture.

[azzeps]

If your gut is telling you to get an eval, then get an eval. Sometimes an outsider's observation is invaluable. They should be able to observe her at school to get a thorough picture.

I think this is a good idea. Follow your gut... if you think there's something else going on, pursue it. Meet with the teachers at the school if you think that would help. Look for somewhere else for next year. Maybe Montessori isn't a good fit. I looked at lots of Montessori classrooms for DD, and decided that while the philosophy appealed to ME, I was not the one who was going to be in the classroom, and that while DD could benefit from some structure (and she still could!) that it would probably cause more pain and suffering than it was worth. FWIW, I went to Montessori school, and my mom sent my brother there, but then pulled him out and sent him elsewhere... he just wasn't a fit for it, despite what they'll tell you when you ask if there is a particular kind of child who does well with Montessori.

Last year, my DD hit another girl at school. I was so embarrassed, but it is one of those "normal" behaviors... She also scratched the teacher who was restraining her - we wrote the teacher a note, and when we saw the girl at school again, we said we were sorry to her - well, I did all the talking, but I was hoping to model the behavior, you know? I just held DD next to me while I got down and said, "E is sorry she hit you. She is working on using her words with her friends."

In regards to sibling rivalry... is there a new baby at home? This was the case for us last year. DS was born the summer before DD started her first year of preschool. FWIW, it was a REALLY hard year of adjustment for all of us, but her especially. She regressed with her toileting, but honestly, I think that she stored up quite a lot of hurt and anger towards having a new baby brother, and I wouldn't necessarily call that a regression, but I think it can be part of the adjustment to a new family member and having to share mom and dad, and not getting as much attention at home.

Hang in there, mama! It will get better!!! :hug:

[ellies mom]

If you look for a new pre-school, I would try to find one with a more "relaxed" nap policy. The first program DD1 went to (play based at a local college) paired two rooms together for nap time. The kids who needed to nap, napped in one room while the kids who did not nap played quietly in the other room. When the nappers woke up, they joined the other kids in the awake room. It worked out really well for everyone. DD1 wasn't a napper and I can't imagine that a forced nap would have worked out well.

[California]

A call home doesn't raise any red flags for me. It sounds like the staff are as frustrated as you are. If they think of themselves as providing a teaching environment (not simply a childcare environment) they may see this as teaching her that if she hurts someone she will be fully removed from other kids' presence. From what you write everyone involved cares about your DD.

If she's doing well at home (which is probably a quieter, less stimulating environment) than she is at school, is it possible to pick her up for nap time? It may be asking too much to expect her to go to sleep surrounded by other kids, if teachers at two separate schools haven't been able to get her to do so. She may partly be acting up not only from overstimulation but also lack of sleep.

[hillview]

based on the other history I'd get her evaluated.

[rin]

Thanks all. We're waiting to hear back from the evaluation center.

We already do pick her up for naps; we started that in hopes that that would remove the problem time from the day and that she'd have more success in the other parts of the day if she wasn't having a daily failure over naptime. While of course it makes naptime easier (she doesn't nap, and hasn't for over a year, but the other kids can nap when she's not there!), so far it unfortunately hasn't seemed to help with her behavior at the other times.

Thanks again to everyone for the support and advice.