If your parent or relative is your primary childcare provider: vacation scheduling?

[brittone2]

If you WOH and have a parent or ILs or other family who watch your children as the primary childcare provider, how do you handle scheduling vacation time?

Does the family member providing care only take vacation time off when you take vacation? Do you feel they should be able to schedule their own days off with adequate notice, or do you generally expect them to accommodate your schedule and not take optional days off (like for their own vacation time). Do you have a backup plan in place if the family member providing care wants to take vacation, for example? Do you feel differently about it if you pay the family member vs. family member works unpaid?

This relates to an ongoing situation with BIL/SIL/MIL. I'm curious how other families work this out with their family member, and what expectations are reasonable from both parties. Have you found it easy to work out and communicate the needs of both parties, or has there been a learning curve?

[emily]

Not us but we have family that have had childcare provided by gma/gpa. In both cases, both SIL/BIL and the grandparents try to accommodate each other and give as much notice to each other, as possible. It is no different than any other childcare provider situation. I don't think it matters if they are paid or not. In our families, the grandparents are not officially paid but the moms/dads give the gparents money or pay for their other household expenses.

[mariza]

When my Dad and his GF were taking care of the kids this never came up, but if they did want a vacation I believe it would be their prerogative to take when whenever it suited them. I would expect (hope) that they would give me enough time to find other arrangements.


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[JBaxter]

My mother does childcare for my niece. She usually splits the time with their other grandmother. She will give my SIL any dates of medical appointments or any trips when she makes them The other grandmother can usually take the days but on occasion my SIL or brother need to take off work. Its never been an issue for them.

[weech]

My MIL watches DS two days a week and takes vacation (or goes to work meetings, etc) whenever she needs to. We figure it out.

[LMPC]

My MIL watches DS two days a week and takes vacation (or goes to work meetings, etc) whenever she needs to. We figure it out.

This is us as well. I WOH 2 days a week and my mom watches DD. When she takes vacation, I just take that week off or find a babysitter or DH works from home. My mom gives us loads of warning, so we just make it work. In the summer when she goes away to work, we have another person lined up for those 3 months.

[brittone2]

Thanks for the input so far.

If anyone is curious, there's back story here in an old thread: http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?430580-ILs-parents-caring-for-their-parents-and-grandkids-quot-sandwich-generation-quot-update-OP&highlight=taking+advantage

MIL is currently down to 3 days a week for the summer, plus fairly regular Saturdays. However, her 90 yo mother now lives with her full time, and MIL is still taking care of grandmother in law's old farmhouse, etc. in addition to caring for our two nephews. FIL passed away in May, so now MIL has a lot of obligations. She's trying to get a handle on finances, there have been lots of appts (my DH takes her) following FIL's death, MIL needs to schedule appts with several financial planners, etc.

Prior to FIL passing, we had set up a week away in the OBX in September. BIL and SIL have known since April that this was the plan. MIL and FIL paid for a house for everyone last May. BIL and SIL did not come on last year's trip as BIL had little vacation time and my youngest nephew does not travel well. This year DH and I set up renting a house for MIL, FIL, my parents, single SIL, grandmother-in-law. BIL and SIL are not coming due to nephew not traveling well (10 hr drive). BIL does have more vacation time as he switched jobs recently.

Let me also mention that we will be gone over MIL/FIL's anniversary, which I know will be a hard date for MIL this year.

We had a family get together yesterday, and I was shocked as we were talking to DH's sister (this is not the BIL/SIL with the kids my mother in law babysits for) about her plans. She doesn't get much vacation time and is debating between half a week and coming down for the full week. So then we say to MIL, but you are coming the full week, right? At which point she kind of says, well, I don't know. Other SIL with the kids pipes in and says "I thought you were only going for half a week." DH says mom, you need to come the full week! She kind of mumbles and says hmmm humm hmmm....under her breath like she would like to but doesn't have the option courtesy of BIL/SIL's expectations.

Their family is NOT direct or very communicative. It could be that MIL phrased her desire to go on vacation to BIL/SIL like, "if you don't have childcare in place I can just do half a week," when she really means she'd like to go for the full week. I'm quite sure no one asked her if she really only wanted to go a half week (considering it is a 10 hr drive!). But that's just MIL. She's not very direct, she doesn't tell BIL/SIL no ever, and BIL and SIL have a history of taking major advantage. I've known MIL for 17 years, SIL has known her for 10, and we all are aware that this is how she is. MIL throws herself under the bus for everyone. MIL repeatedly says BIL/SIL have "no options" due to debt, finances, etc. and therefore she will never tell them no, as she feels like they have no alternative. But they do. I couldn't care less how they spend their money, but there are ongoing patterns of making stupid financial decisions, being bailed out, spending money on expensive vehicles, etc. but then telling MIL they can't afford preschool or child care. Oh, and MIL is not allowed to drive either kid in her car, even though she hasn't had an accident in decades.

When we got to the car, DH and I were really angry. I adore BIL and SIL, I really do. They are great people. But this taking advantage of MIL thing has been a long, ongoing thing for years. Financially (at least in the past), MIL telling them she was stretched thin and couldn't handle taking care of a 2nd child (that they went on to have anyway, and then just said oh, by the way, will you be able to handle it?). MIL has repeatedly (!!!) asked them to come up with a backup plan for childcare, has suggested some people she knows, etc. and yet nada.

DH and I really get stressed about seeing his mom go through the ringer. The best thing would be to empower her to say no, but it never works :( It is just MIL's personality. After the last few incidents, we've been biting our tongue. But now with the death of FIL, MIL's mom moving in, etc. it is becoming too much to watch :( My other SIL (no kids) recently said something to DH about BIL/SIL needing to pony up some money for preschool for our nephew to get MIL a bit of a break, which is the first inkling we've had that she's getting frustrated watching this all happen as well.

So now I'm thinking that SIL (no kids), DH, and I need to sit MIL down and tell her that she needs to look out for herself. She just went through this awful and unexpected loss of FIL. She gave 4+ months notice to BIL/SIL about vacation. She does not take off for doctor appts, etc. unless she absolutely, positively has to (very, very rarely). She does everything she can to accommodate BIL/SIL's schedule. She is not paid, and no longer has FIL's income (although she's pretty set financially overall, it would be nice for her to get paid a bit iykwim, now that she's fairly young to be widowed). BIL and SIL have repeatedly ignored urging to have backup care in place other than SIL's mother, who lives 4 hours away and works part-time. But I suspect talking to MIL will do no good, which leads us to having to decide yet again whether to express our concerns to BIL/SIL and p*ss them off royally. I think my other SIL (no kids) would also join us, but their family is so not communicative that this is going to be difficult for everyone, for sure.

DH and I don't want to overstep, and we really do have a good relationship with BIL/SIL. But this has been a long, ongoing pattern with them, and it is breaking my heart as MIL needs. a. break. Like yesterday. And I can't help but feel they are being terribly insensitive, particularly in light of the fact the woman lost her *husband* just a month ago.

[egoldber]

This trip is in September? So they still have plenty of time to find back up care.

Can you talk to BIL/SIL directly about how you and your DH really want your MIL to be there the full week and that you think it will be good for her to be out of town for her anniversary. Maybe bypassing your MIL is the way to go.

But I have watched a similar dynamic play out with my own mother. She watched my sister's kids for free basically their whole childhood. And now she is watching my niece's daughter (so her great grand daughter) despite her own failing health. She does not feel able to get away or take vacations because my niece "needs" her. It is very painful to watch and I totally get it.

Having watched this play out for years, I have come to realize that in part my mother enables this because she is lonely and it makes her feel useful and needed. She also is completely unable to say no when someone asks her something or to speak up for her own needs.

[brittone2]

That is absolutely MIL, Beth. You nailed it. Knowing MIL's personality, I feel like there has to be a "correction factor" of sorts, iykwim. It is inconceivable to me that BIL/SIL do not realize this by now, but MIL is never, ever going to tell them no. Yes, MIL is an adult and should be empowered to speak up for herself, but it will never happen, IME. As a result, I feel BIL and SIL need to have some sort of way to communicate better with MIL.

I suspect that BIL and SIL know very well MIL will never say no. But I guess the first step is to sort of talk to them about how she has a tendency to overlook her own needs. Right now she needs surgery on her foot for an accessory bone there, but she won't do it because she says she "can't take the time off." Yet BIL/SIL don't seem to check in with her and actually *care* about her needs in any meaningful way. I mean, I think they do care, but they are unwilling to do anything on their end to make MIL's life easier, because it will inconvenience them. Knowing MIL's personality, I think someone needs to be checking in with her regularly and seeing how things are going, can she handle this, etc. and I don't feel like BIL/SIL have any willingness at all to communicate like that with MIL. She is one of those women who will always say it is "fine." Everything is fine. She can handle it. But they all have to know MIL is like this by now, and that they need to dig a little deeper and/or open their own eyes and think about what she's up against.

It is awful to watch, as I can see the strain. Oh, and MIL is still not sleeping after FIL's passing, and my two nephews are fairly high needs (oldest is just at a difficult age-same as my DS2 so I'm all too familiar! Baby is 11 months and needs to be held constantly, has bad separation anxiety right now, etc. Since the time of the old post, MIL's having foot and ankle issues that are pretty rough, making it even more difficult to keep up with my nephews.

I'm sorry you are watching this play out as well, Beth. I am so worried about MIL's health. I can see things are deteriorating and her stress level is very high. Combine that with no sleep (how safe is that for the nephews anyway? MIL has been practically narcoleptic in the past, and I'm not kidding).

[brittone2]

Yes, trip is in Sept, so they had from late April to start figuring out a way to accommodate MIL's vacation. Now that FIL has passed, MIL and grandmother in law basically will need to ride with us anyway, as there's no way MIL is driving 10 hrs by herself with grandmother in law. My (childless) SIL would drive her, but that SIL is the one not sure about a full vs. a half week.

DH and I have found sitters via care.com and I've dropped that hint more than a few times just talking about how pleased we've been overall with the two sitters we found. It took some work (we had one unsuccessful round and then one round where we found two people we love right away). MIL has given BIL/SIL the # of someone who does in home or drop in type of care, yet BIL and SIL will not make any effort to pursue this. THis has been over the last 2-3 years. They don't take the hint or perhaps refuse to do it. I believe they feel they cannot entrust their children to anyone who is not family. As a result, they will not take any action :(

[wellyes]

Crazy, so, they get free year round childcare from MIL and won't let you have a week of her time? Because why??? Anything other than pure selfishness?

I am guessing SIL is her daughter. I wouldn't personally get down and dirty with that situation with a 10 foot pole. Follow your DH's lead entirely on this. It sounds like a really unhealthy relationship but it is one they've chosen and are- I would say - very unlikely to change, especially with your FIL's death, while she is in this stage.

I will say this. My MIL lost her husband relatively young (he was 60). She spent about 3 years watching my kids before I lost my job and didn't need her weekly help anymore. Having more time to herself, she has found a new boyfriend. Never in a million years did she or anyone expect this. (It was an old friend who was also widowed young...) She is so happy now. She's also joined a garden club and made new friends. She is a fulfilled person now, not just an accessory to her grandkids. I sincerely hope in a few years time your MIL can find such luck too.

[carolinacool]

Crazy, so, they get free year round childcare from MIL and won't let you have a week of her time? Because why??? Anything other than pure selfishness?

That's all it is.

I wish I had some advice. This is happening in my own family with my aunt and her two girls. Both of my cousins had their children young - one had her DS when she was in high school; the other was 18 and in a very, very short-lived marriage when she had two girls close together. So, I guess they truly needed my aunt and uncle because they were so young. But as they moved into their mid-20s, they continued to take advantage of them - moving in and out of my aunt and uncle's house, dictating where they were going to sleep and turning public rooms into bedrooms because they didn't want to "share" with their own children, etc. And expecting child care at the drop of a hat while they took vacations with friends and such. All while my aunt has been dealing with physical and emotional issues. The cousin with the one child has pulled it together (I think) and is out on her own and planning her child care better. The other cousin at least now has a steady job, but is still at home and comes and goes as she pleases. Our part of the family just stays out of it.

[brittone2]

Crazy, so, they get free year round childcare from MIL and won't let you have a week of her time? Because why??? Anything other than pure selfishness?

I am guessing SIL is her daughter. I wouldn't personally get down and dirty with that situation with a 10 foot pole. Follow your DH's lead entirely on this. It sounds like a really unhealthy relationship but it is one they've chosen and are- I would say - very unlikely to change, especially with your FIL's death, while she is in this stage.

I will say this. My MIL lost her husband relatively young (he was 60). She spent about 3 years watching my kids before I lost my job and didn't need her weekly help anymore. Having more time to herself, she has found a new boyfriend. Never in a million years did she or anyone expect this. (It was an old friend who was also widowed young...) She is so happy now. She's also joined a garden club and made new friends. She is a fulfilled person now, not just an accessory to her grandkids. I sincerely hope in a few years time your MIL can find such luck too.
BIL is actually DH's brother/MIL's son.

I do think they are a bit selfish. BIL has a long pattern of sponging off of MIL. He's kind of subtle in how he does it, but it has been an issue for as long as I've known DH (nearly two decades now.). Her mom is very nice and helpful, but is quite a bit younger and healthier than my MIL. Sometimes I think SIL views things through the lens of what her mom can handle, vs. MIL's health, age, physical condition, etc. BIL and SIL have made a long series of odd financial decisions, which are none of my business overall, but it is odd to me that everyone claims they have "no options" other than MIL for childcare when they repeatedly have money for all kinds of irresponsible financial decisions that most definitely *are* choices. BIL and SIL basically depend on MIL to make this work for them because they also apparently have themselves convinced this is the only option for childcare.

There are many things BIL and SIL could do that would free up more financial wiggle room to afford backup care, 2-3 day a week MDO or preschool, etc. but that won't happen ever, as far as I can tell. And I don't really get involved in their finances, other than wondering how they can live with their decisions that continue to box MIL into this corner of being obligated to help. The fact that she spoke up and told them she could not handle them having a 2nd was the most direct thing I've heard her say in a long time, yet it was totally disregarded and surprise!, the news about baby #2 was then dropped in her lap with no discussion other than "can you handle it? (laugh, laugh, of course you can! Therefore, not giving her a way out, really.).

She's already 65 and it will be 4+ more years until the youngest is in school. She is already not in great physical shape to deal with this (has severe osteoporosis in addition to the ankle issue). Add in the probable continued deterioration of her mother, who is currently doesn't require that much physical assistance to get up from a chair, for example. But at 90 yo, it is obvious that her situation will likely deteriorate, and Grandmother in law has already guilted MIL extensively about ever putting her in a home. I think MIL will if it becomes absolutely necessary, but MIL is going to feel tremendous guilt about it. I suspect MIL will probably end up injuring herself in the process of trying to aid her mother as time goes on, and probably only then will consider placing MIL into long term care.

[hillview]

My parents take care of my kids after school. A few times a year they want to go see my sister and her kids which causes us issues. It does cause tension (we don't pay them but they do live with us and we pay for a car etc). We try to encourage them to go visit her when we are going on vacation. Inevitably once or 2x a year they want to go see my sister and we have to cover child care (which is a challenge. It works but is not perfect.

[egoldber]

She is one of those women who will always say it is "fine." Everything is fine. She can handle it. But they all have to know MIL is like this by now, and that they need to dig a little deeper and/or open their own eyes and think about what she's up against.

Yes, my mother is exactly like this. It's so frustrating!

I think the only way to get your MIL there for a week is to approach SIL/BIL directly. I would try to keep the conversation VERY narrow in focus, just about this trip and not about the larger issue. I would wait for that until after this trip, or else there will be much drama and is likely to only result in MIL not going at all in an effort to keep the peace with them.

[brittone2]

Good point. I think we will talk to (childless) SIL about the larger issues in terms of all of us needing to keep an eye on MIL's well being, but we'll stick to the narrow focus if we go to BIL/SIL with the kids. Childless SIL already initiated that conversation briefly after FIL's death, which surprised me, as I've always wondered if she was feeling the same way we feel.

[janine]

My mother watches my DD's. Although I do pay her (but no where near what a FT nanny would cost), I consider it an immense favor that she is doing this, so she calls the shots in terms of schedule. If she has no preference or anything going on than we go by my days off (and I max it out even if not doing anything since I want my mom to have alot of flexibilty). I also stay at my parents' if it makes things more convenient but for the most part it's easier at our home with access to toys/food,etc.

Since this is an IL, I would stay out of it except through your DH. It's hard to say what's going on, maybe the MIL would prefer to not go. I agree it seems selfish but again it's hard to say when it's blood relatives and you're an IL. My Aunt watches my nephew for example and she actually prefers to not go on solo vacations (away from their family). Having a discussion on her well being though is a good idea by the sounds of it, and can never hurt.

[brittone2]

I definitely think MIL wants to go. She was making these little sounds yesterday under her breath that implied she would like to, but doesn't have an option. It was very clear IMO that she wants to go, and DH agrees.

[ahisma]

I think that it depends on how far your DH is willing to push. It sounds like BIL/SIL are willing to push pretty hard and that the only way to effectively advocate for MIL is to push harder.

Would your DH be willing to send an email to the family at large (MIL, BIL/SIL, and other SIL)? I'm just brainstorming here, but I'd take a two step approach.

Step 1: Send an email to follow up on the conversation and clarifying that of course she's going for a week - there seemed to be some confusion but we all love and care about MIL and it's so important for her to get a break and have some personal rejuvenation time after such a hard year, etc. Ask for everybody to commit to encouraging her to go for a week and ask that any concerns be directed to him so that we don't burden MIL - of course none of us want her to feel guilty for some time to herself, etc. Sort of an assumptive sell - frame it in a way that they feel compelled to go along with it.

Step 2 (if that doesn't work): Have DH facilitate a family meeting to see what burdens you can take off MIL to ensure that she has time to be healthy and care for herself. This doesn't need to be focused on BIL / SIL, but can encompass everything - GMIL, finances, house care, etc. Ask for everybody to bring concerns and possible solutions to the table.

My thought is that if you push hard enough and are noisy enough about needing to make sure that MIL's needs are being respected, eventually they will (let's hope!) start to recognize that they need to be more realistic about the demands that they are putting on her.

[brittone2]

I think that it depends on how far your DH is willing to push. It sounds like BIL/SIL are willing to push pretty hard and that the only way to effectively advocate for MIL is to push harder.

Would your DH be willing to send an email to the family at large (MIL, BIL/SIL, and other SIL)? I'm just brainstorming here, but I'd take a two step approach.

Step 1: Send an email to follow up on the conversation and clarifying that of course she's going for a week - there seemed to be some confusion but we all love and care about MIL and it's so important for her to get a break and have some personal rejuvenation time after such a hard year, etc. Ask for everybody to commit to encouraging her to go for a week and ask that any concerns be directed to him so that we don't burden MIL - of course none of us want her to feel guilty for some time to herself, etc. Sort of an assumptive sell - frame it in a way that they feel compelled to go along with it.

Step 2 (if that doesn't work): Have DH facilitate a family meeting to see what burdens you can take off MIL to ensure that she has time to be healthy and care for herself. This doesn't need to be focused on BIL / SIL, but can encompass everything - GMIL, finances, house care, etc. Ask for everybody to bring concerns and possible solutions to the table.

My thought is that if you push hard enough and are noisy enough about needing to make sure that MIL's needs are being respected, eventually they will (let's hope!) start to recognize that they need to be more realistic about the demands that they are putting on her.

Thank you for this. I think it is a great framework for us. Dh is willing to have this discussion, but this puts things in a positive and favorable light. We spoke with (no kids) SIL tonight, and she said she was shocked by the "half a week" thing yesterday and had no idea that was what was being tossed around. She may only come for half a week, but she's now thinking of flying down and renting a car. As a result, she won't be bringing MIL/GMIL, so it is good that it simply won't be an option to do half a week. (no kids) SIL is going to talk to MIL tomorrow and mention she was surprised at what was said and go from there. (no kids) SIL is bringing MIL down to our house this coming week for a financial consultation, and I think DH and his sister are going to use it as an opportunity to talk more broadly with MIL about what she wants to do with her life now. Does she need more time for her volunteer work? Does she want to keep sitting? Is it too much? Does she feel like she has the option to tell them it is too much? DH is going to gently let her know that because she signed up to sit for our nephew 3 years ago, it doesn't necessarily mean she needs to be on board with doing that for the next 4+ years and beyond if the arrangement isn't working for her.

I like your idea and I think getting a team "buy in" to watching out for MIL's interests is the best approach possible.

[icunurse]

I would like to also toss in another point for you to make with your BIL/SIL. When you have two active kids, you should never depend on only one caregiver for your children. I cringe when I see people who only have their parent(s) to help out and don't have a ready and able back-up source. Anything can happen to any one of us at any time, but, obviously, the risks go up with age and health issues. My Mom went from reasonably healthy to barely able to take care of herself in just over a year. When she was healthy, if something had happened to my Dad, I surely would have expected her first priority to be him and not my kids. Besides health issues, there are always things that can happen. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Heed my advice - everyone needs a back-up or two.

Someone needs to point this out to your BIL/SIL. They should find a back-up and toss her a small job every now and then to keep her in the fold in case they need help in an emergency situation. As much as parents might be willing and currently able to help out, $hit happens and they should always be prepared for that. And the fact that your MIL could get a small break when she wants one would be a added bonus.

[tmahanes]

I would like to also toss in another point for you to make with your BIL/SIL. When you have two active kids, you should never depend on only one caregiver for your children. I cringe when I see people who only have their parent(s) to help out and don't have a ready and able back-up source. Anything can happen to any one of us at any time, but, obviously, the risks go up with age and health issues. My Mom went from reasonably healthy to barely able to take care of herself in just over a year. When she was healthy, if something had happened to my Dad, I surely would have expected her first priority to be him and not my kids. Besides health issues, there are always things that can happen. Don't put all your eggs into one basket. Heed my advice - everyone needs a back-up or two.

This exactly! My mom keeps B one day a week just to spend time with him. In October she and B were out in her yard, she slid on a very small patch of wet clover and fell in their back yard. She ended up with surgery to repair her ankle fracture. She was not allowed to put any weight on it for about 10 weeks. There is absolutely no way she would have been able to still watch B and I can't imagine what we would have done if she was our only sitter!!

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[brittone2]

This exactly! My mom keeps B one day a week just to spend time with him. In October she and B were out in her yard, she slid on a very small patch of wet clover and fell in their back yard. She ended up with surgery to repair her ankle fracture. She was not allowed to put any weight on it for about 10 weeks. There is absolutely no way she would have been able to still watch B and I can't imagine what we would have done if she was our only sitter!!

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I absolutely agree with both of you on needing backup care. MIL has implored them to look into backup care, but they have not. SIL is part of a mom's club, and while I know it can be tough to find a caregiver you are comfortable with sometimes, I'm sure she can get word of mouth recommendations.

MIL is 69 (I think I posted 65 upthread!). She has significant osteoporosis and bilateral ankle issues (really needs surgery to have an accessory navicular bone removed in her foot, but that means she wouldn't be able to sit for the kids for weeks, so she won't do it). She's not in the best of health overall. FIL died suddenly a little over a month ago. He had a cell phone on his hip and was never able to use it to call 911. I can't even imagine if something like that would happen while MIL was watching kids ages 1 and 3. BIL/SIL are very rural, there is no cell coverage (only place anywhere around me where I have zero cell coverage. I can't even receive texts), and the neighbors are quite spread out. Add in her own mother is 90+ years old, and while she's doing quite well considering her age, she's already had one stroke and several serious falls.

We've told them about care.com, MIL gave them contact info for someone with daycare out of her home that could probably be used as backup, etc. As far as any of us know, BIL/SIL have made *zero* attempt to find backup coverage. I could possibly be more sympathetic if they had tried, but all this time (3 years), there's been no attempt to find backup care. A few times SIL's mother has driven down from 3-4 hours away to help in a pinch, but that's obviously not quite the level of backup care that they should have in place.

Hopefully SIL talks with MIL this morning. Once we get this settled, as some point we're going to have to have a broader discussion about watching out for MIL's interests.

[Cuckoomamma]

I don't know the exact dynamics of your family so this may me off the mark, but I just wanted to mention something that my mom does.

She agrees to things that she doesn't really want because she can't stand up for herself. However, if someone stands up for her interests, she throws them under the bus with the person who is taking advantage of her. So, she'll hint at her difficulty with something my sibling is doing, I'll advocate for her and the sibling will be irritated (because they were bullying her and don't want to get called out on it) and then my mom will act as if I was some type of rogue crusader and she doesn't "really" need/want whatever. Then my mom and sibling will act as if I'm a difficult individual, but my mom will say she didn't realize it came across that way when talking with me afterwards. After many, many years I just can't hear about all the awful things she goes through on so many levels because I know that in some crazy way she wants things to be that way. I get nothing but heartache trying to help her out.

So, if you and dh advocate for MIL, will she back you up or will she act as if it's no big deal when BIL/SIL confront her about something? My hunch is that BIL/SIL have an inkling of what they're doing and will try to bully MIL into their point of view.

I just want to throw that warning out there in case your MIL is anything like my mom!

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I don't know the exact dynamics of your family so this may me off the mark, but I just wanted to mention something that my mom does.

She agrees to things that she doesn't really want because she can't stand up for herself. However, if someone stands up for her interests, she throws them under the bus with the person who is taking advantage of her. So, she'll hint at her difficulty with something my sibling is doing, I'll advocate for her and the sibling will be irritated (because they were bullying her and don't want to get called out on it) and then my mom will act as if I was some type of rogue crusader and she doesn't "really" need/want whatever. Then my mom and sibling will act as if I'm a difficult individual, but my mom will say she didn't realize it came across that way when talking with me afterwards. After many, many years I just can't hear about all the awful things she goes through on so many levels because I know that in some crazy way she wants things to be that way. I get nothing but heartache trying to help her out.

So, if you and dh advocate for MIL, will she back you up or will she act as if it's no big deal when BIL/SIL confront her about something? My hunch is that BIL/SIL have an inkling of what they're doing and will try to bully MIL into their point of view.



:yeahthat: my mom is not like this but my grandmother (mom's mom) is to some extent. deals with extremely self-centered adult children and adult grand children who basically mooch off her (are still living in her house, had kids, never got a place of their own, don't pay rent, fight over things, complain about this or that). for decades she has complained about how it's so hard bc of all the fighting, chaos in her house... but then when one of the more self-sufficient siblings tries to step in to tell people to stop causing, she acts like she doesn't know what they're talking about. so frustrating.

i agree with egoldberg that many moms have an issue with "feeling needed"..which is why they often favor the free-loading child and ignore their kids who are hard-working, self-sufficient, etc. They may complain all day about it but i think in the end some sort of like it and like the feeling of how they noble they are for dealing with it all, or something.

I get how it's extremely frustrating. My parents have dealt with this sort of thing way too much in their own parents/siblings....sadly it is very common in our culture. Maddening is the only way i can describe it! I just thank my lucky stars my brother is not like this (he moved out at age 17 and was pretty much on his own after that).

[Green_Tea]

Just wanted to offer some sympathy, brittone. My MIL is the primary caregiver for my niece and has been for 10+ years. My BIL and SIL can afford other childcare (their combined income far, far exceeds ours), but MIL is there all the time - picks her up from school, brings her to dance, takes her on vacation, and has her overnight multiple times a week. She knows every intimate detail of her life, right down to the last time she showered and what she ate for breakfast. My MIL has turned down multiple invitations to be more involved in the lives of her other three grandkids, all because she is "needed" by SIL and DIL and DN. She couldn't tell you who my kids had for teachers this past year, but I 100% sure she could tell you when DN used the bathroom last. We end up seeing MIL 3 or 4 times a year (almost always with DN in tow, unless DN is at camp or off skiing), and only if *I* arrange a visit and it somehow works out with BIL and SIL's vacation schedule. My MIL refuses to say no to SIL or ask her to make other arrangements, and SIL believes that DN should be MIL's first priority. I think she also enjoys feeling needed and being DN's "favorite". Sadly, she has missed out on the opportunity to get to know her other grandkids, and my oldest is now at an age at which she's basically stopped caring.

I often wonder how SIL and BIL would feel if the shoe were on the other foot and it was their child who got the short end of the stick.

:hug:

[gatorsmom]

Beth, I'm so sorry you are still going through this. I have thought a lot about your MiL since her DH passed away. I watched how the death of my mom affected my dad and it was hard to watch.

On the one had, I suspect the busyness might be good for your MIL to help her deal with the grief. My dad always seemed better when he had something that kept him very busy. And being around children and grandchildren does bring a smile when it feels like you just can't smile. HOWEVER, I am pretty sure that overall the amount of stress your MIL is dealing with is really bad for your MILs health. Heck, taking care of an aging parent is a full time job alone! And it can easily undermine the health of the caregiver. With all your MIL has to manage, I suspect her health is going to go down hill very quickly in the next year.

If it were me, I'd team up with the other SIL and take control of the situation, for your MIL's sake. Organize an intervention. And yes, that may mean your ILs are pretty pissed off at you for awhile. But if you don't, there is a good chance your MIL won't last another 2 years. You have to decide which will bother you more in the future.

[gatorsmom]

Ok, I had another thought while in the shower. What about you and your other SIL (the unselfish one) find a nanny to help your MIL this summer. Find one with a degree in early childhood education or something similar (and of course do background, credit and reference checks ). She can be an assistnant nanny for your MIL this summer with the ultimate evil goal being that after she trains with your MiL she take over as main nanny in the fall. Tell the selfish S/BIL that MIL needs help with the boys and the rest of the family is providing her with a mothers helper. I suspect your MiL would love the help and frankly there is no way she can keep up with the activity level of these boys. A good nanny could help the boys flourish. I realize its not fair that you pay for it but maybe the selfish S/BiL could pitch in payment too. Then once your MiL feels the boys are in good hands (because she has trained the nanny herself) I'd form an intervention with the whole family as a team to let the selfish S/BIL know 3weeks or so before the end of the summer that MIL is turning in her notice and they will have to find other arrangements. It should be pretty clear then that the best person for the job would be the helper-nanny.

Ill be keeping your family in my prayers.

[brittone2]

I don't know the exact dynamics of your family so this may me off the mark, but I just wanted to mention something that my mom does.

She agrees to things that she doesn't really want because she can't stand up for herself. However, if someone stands up for her interests, she throws them under the bus with the person who is taking advantage of her. So, she'll hint at her difficulty with something my sibling is doing, I'll advocate for her and the sibling will be irritated (because they were bullying her and don't want to get called out on it) and then my mom will act as if I was some type of rogue crusader and she doesn't "really" need/want whatever. Then my mom and sibling will act as if I'm a difficult individual, but my mom will say she didn't realize it came across that way when talking with me afterwards. After many, many years I just can't hear about all the awful things she goes through on so many levels because I know that in some crazy way she wants things to be that way. I get nothing but heartache trying to help her out.

So, if you and dh advocate for MIL, will she back you up or will she act as if it's no big deal when BIL/SIL confront her about something? My hunch is that BIL/SIL have an inkling of what they're doing and will try to bully MIL into their point of view.

I just want to throw that warning out there in case your MIL is anything like my mom!

Fortunately, their family is very low drama. THe unfortunate part is that the low drama is partly because no one communicates. I've been with DH for 17 years, so I get the dynamic now, but it is so different from my own family. There is very little communication, lots of being frustrated, upset, etc. but not expressing that at all, ever, etc. I don't think MIL would be upset with us for intervening. In fact, I was thinking today that she might respond best if we just say we are all going for a week, and we'll take care of BIL/SIL. I suspect MIL would be relieved, iykwim.

BIL and SIL may try to bully MIL...hard to say. The whole dynamic with BIL/MIL has been there for years. He has a problem, she bails him out or finds a way for him to get bailed out. He's come a long way, but that dynamic still comes into play. He is a good person overall, and I don't say that lightly. I've seen the sponging dynamic play out with other extended friends/family and their parents in more...I don't know...nefarious or overt ways. I just don't know if he *sees* what this is doing to her. I think he cares about his mom deeply, but somehow his (and his wife's) interests consistently come before his mother's.

Gatorsmom-I do worry about her deteriorating. I was having major concerns prior to FIL's sudden death, and this just exacerbates my concern ten fold. I've been worried about her overall health and would have anticipated her having a serious event of some type before FIL, but that's not what happened. Her osteoporosis is pretty significant and she's becoming increasingly kyphotic (basically "hunch backed" for lay people) due to vertebral fractures, I'm sure. I know she had some when she got diagnosed, but I suspect it is becoming worse :( And of course, one of the worst things she can do is bend over into spinal flexion to lift, yet she's lifting two grandkids day in and day out :( plus things like petfood and so forth now that FIL isn't there (we try to intervene with this but it is easier said than done). Add in the ankle issues, this recent unexplained bilateral LE swelling she's got, she has thyroid and cardiac issues, needs this ankle surgery but can't take 6w off...it isn't good :(

SIL with no kids would not be able to offer any financial assistance at all with respect to hiring a nanny, and other than asking around for references, really knows nothing about kids. She's 40, unmarried, and she's not sure she even wants kids. She's also really not assertive at all, so the whole idea of talking to BIL/SIL is going to make her totally uncomfortable, but I think at this point she'll participate in light of things she's saying about her concerns about her mom. The whole family would pretty much love to avoid any conflict at all...that's just how they are. They might quietly stew or worry, but no one really communicates. A lot of the situation with MIL and BIL/SIL could have been alleviated with communication I think, but it would never occur to any of them to work out things like expectations about ltime off in advance. Hopefully (child-free) SIL talked to her mom today about heading for the beach for a full week and we can follow up when we see (child free) SIL and MIL this week.

I am very worried about MIL, I just don't see how she can make it through the 2nd nephew starting school. I also suspect even once they are in school the expectation will be that she can get them off the bus, etc. as they only live 3 miles or so from MIL. So essentially, no end in sight if we keep with the status quo. Without selling their house, I don't think BIL/SIL could afford FT childcare anywhere. Not even close :( They are swimming in debt, and may pay down some of that with the modest life insurance settlement they received, but no ability to sustain paying for childcare long term. Selling their house would give them a decent cushion and they could move to a smaller place (currently in an inherited 3500 sq foot house on 20 acres with propertytaxes MIL and FIL used to pay for them. Not sure that's ongoing at this point and I don't think I want to know. But for example, they spent 30K on fencing a few years ago via a HELOC so their dogs don't get "stolen" in a rural, low crime area. One dog currently has systemic cancer but they are going for an oncology consult. None of my business, but they spend thousands of dollars per year on their animals, while claiming they have no money to pay for part time preschool, kwim? I try to not really think about how they spend their money, but at times it ruffles my feathers. A year ago they bought a 40K truck, brand new SUV for SIL. It would not surprise me if some of that came from MIL or grandmother in law, but I don't ask. )

[pinkmomagain]

Add in the ankle issues, this recent unexplained bilateral LE swelling she's got, she has thyroid and cardiac issues, needs this ankle surgery but can't take 6w off...it isn't good :(

Been reading this thread and don't have much advice to offer. But it struck me that perhaps babysitting is a convenient excuse for her to avoid the surgery because 1) she may be fearful of the surgery itself and 2) she may be worried about who will help her and her aging mom while she is incapacitated and recovering.

I really feel for your MIL and also you and your DH as you watch this all unfold.

[gatorsmom]

I am very worried about MIL, I just don't see how she can make it through the 2nd nephew starting school. I also suspect even once they are in school the expectation will be that she can get them off the bus, etc. as they only live 3 miles or so from MIL. So essentially, no end in sight if we keep with the status quo. Without selling their house, I don't think BIL/SIL could afford FT childcare anywhere. Not even close :( They are swimming in debt, and may pay down some of that with the modest life insurance settlement they received, but no ability to sustain paying for childcare long term. Selling their house would give them a decent cushion and they could move to a smaller place (currently in an inherited 3500 sq foot house on 20 acres with propertytaxes MIL and FIL used to pay for them. Not sure that's ongoing at this point and I don't think I want to know. But for example, they spent 30K on fencing a few years ago via a HELOC so their dogs don't get "stolen" in a rural, low crime area. One dog currently has systemic cancer but they are going for an oncology consult. None of my business, but they spend thousands of dollars per year on their animals, while claiming they have no money to pay for part time preschool, kwim? I try to not really think about how they spend their money, but at times it ruffles my feathers. A year ago they bought a 40K truck, brand new SUV for SIL. It would not surprise me if some of that came from MIL or grandmother in law, but I don't ask. )

With all her health issues and the load she has to carry, it sounds like she could have some sort of catastrophic "event" within the next few years. At that point B/SIL will have no child care. It would be sad if MILs death or injury is what made them face that.

Would you be willing to chip in with MIL to get her an assistant either to help her with her ailing mother or as a mother's helper? Maybe she would then come to her senses and admit that it's not your financial responsibility and tell your S/BIL they need to pitch in for the childcare help.

[brittone2]

MIL is absolutely prone to minimizing her own issues, and I know she's concerned about who will care for her and her mom. She has repeatedly had health concerns where she doesn't tell us until weeks later (!) even though we live nearby. Even when FIL was here, they wouldn't really update us very well. No one wants us to worry, that type of thing. I'm telling you, they are very much minimizers and not great communicators in general.

BIL/SIL and the other SIL both live about 5-7 mins away or so, and I do think they could help with MIL as she recovers. SIL with the kids currently doesn't work 2 days a week, so it would be nice if she could reciprocate by helping MIL. We are an hr away and could certainly assist as well, since we have a flexible schedule with HSing. MIL said something about "I don't know how I could ever take the time off to have the surgery," and grandmother in law (a tough old bird ;) ) basically told her, "You'll do what you need to do, and they'll have to figure it out." But she won't. She went for some PT and said it helped, but IMO, it isn't going to be a long term solution. She needs the surgery. Right now she has pretty severe bilateral ankle swelling. It isn't pitting edema, thankfully. They rechecked her thyroid but MIL hasn't told us if anything was off there (they were trying to rule in/out pretibial myxedema from her thyroid). So it could be that she's swelling due to the foot issue and now her other foot and ankle are getting more involved due to the strain on the other foot. I am not sure that's what she's dealing with though, but in any case, being on her feet all day every day with the two kids is certainly not helping her substantial swelling (noticeable from across the room).

I'd be willing to chip in toward childcare for something like a part time preschool or MDO situation, but Dh and I really aren't willing to cover FT childcare while watching the choices BIL/SIL have made. I realize it isn't about their choices as much as it is about lightening MIL's load, but it is hard. Frankly, I can't afford to give up 401K contributions, 529 contributions, etc. in order to fund their childcare, and that's what it would take (and then some). Right now they are having MIL sit 3 days a week, but SIL just changed around the facilities she works at, and I suspect will likely add in another day or two eventually. She even just said to someone on the 4th that she was only working 3-4 days a week "at least for the summer." Right now MIL likes having the one day a week off as child-free SIL has a half day that day and they spend the afternoon doing something together, which is fantastic and I can tell is very much an uplifting part of MIL's week. If SIL w/ kids adds back in an extra day or two per week, then the strain is going to shoot up sharply from where it is now. Keep in mind she is not allowed to drive with the kids *anywhere.* I am very conscientious about carseat safety, prefer to install seats ourselves, and even with my own parents there was a learning curve and I had to make certain they knew how to buckle the kids and so forth. But MIL hasn't had an accident in decades, and isn't allowed to drive the kids at all. That means grocery shopping, errands, doctor appts, her volunteer work, etc. all has to happen on her days off, in addition to dealing with her mom, her mom's old farmhouse, her mom's appts, etc.

[gatorsmom]

I'm sorry, it sounds like a difficult situation. Ill pray for your MIL.

[brittone2]

Thanks, Lisa. I think DH will be talking to SIL (no kids) tonight and she'll let us know if MIL said anything on Saturday when SIL brought up vacation. SIL without kids and MIL will be here later this week as MIL is meeting with a financial advisor at our house (midway between his office and her house). We may get a chance before or after to sit down and express our concern about her well being, happiness, stress level, etc.

We're going to go from there and figure out what we want to say to BIL/SIL. DH reminded me that BIL pretty much never reads email, which will make that idea a bit more complex, and DH may have to call him to see what we can do to assist them in making arrangements for alternative coverage while we are on vacation. Perhaps DH, SIL without kids, and BIL/SIL will need to sit down together at some point soon and have a broader discussion about MIL's current level of obligations, and how sustainable that is long-term. Hopefully hearing DH and (child free) SIL express their concern about MIL's health, etc. in a way that doesn't point fingers at BIL/SIL will get them thinking about how long this can go on.

I really appreciate the prayers and support. I'm finding this incredibly hard to watch :( As you know, I was worried well before the more recent turn of events with FIL passing, and now, I just can't see how MIL can continue much longer.