Do your kids listen to other adults trying to re-direct them?

[smiles33]

So let me preface this by acknowledging that I fully realize my DDs are mostly obedient due to personality issues, not through any parenting skill of mine. Yet I wonder if most kids ignore any adult but their own parents (and maybe a teacher who has authority over them) even when they know the adult is trying to correct them appropriately. Like opting for "civil disobedience" in certain settings?

Situation: DD1 has been going 2/week to a martial arts studio for the past 2 years. She enjoys it immensely but I no longer sit and watch her class with DD2 because of the behavior of the owners' 5 year old DD and one of the instructor's 4 year old DD. At the studio, the family waiting area has room for 8-10 people, which can be packed with parents and siblings of students in class, in addition to the 2 kids who are always there (owners' 5 year old DD and a lead instructor's 4 year old DD). Now, both of the younger girls are there many hours every day, so I get that they have limited entertainment (they've played with all the toys and seen all the movies already) and limited (almost none!) adult supervision. I also wouldn't want my kids to blindly do whatever an adult told them to do. Yet it makes for an awkward and sometimes unpleasant wait and many parents stop waiting inside once they see the dynamics in the waiting room and the newness of their kid doing martial arts wears off. I am surprised by how many sit in their cars during the hot summer!

A few examples:

- "Mary" the recently turned 4 year old will scream and throw a massive temper tantrum if she doesn't get her way. Other siblings waiting in the area and playing with the toys sometimes don't relinquish toys fast enough. Adults sometimes try to calm Mary down but on several occasions her father has to stop class and come into the waiting area to threaten her with a spanking before she calms down. Yes, it's that loud and I've seen him spank her a few times. I always feel awkward, wondering if he realizes I have tried to calm her down because he usually will ask all the waiting parents, "what happened?" Plus, I'm uncomfortable threatening her with a spanking to avoid her dad coming in to do it. One of the other dads who regularly waits in the room (they live too far away to drop off and come back during rush hour) will sometimes say, "Mary, do you want your dad to come in here...." and that sometimes gets her to stop screaming/sobbing. Or he will offer her his smartphone to play with games (she's been tech savvy since 2 and often asks parents for their smartphones and whether they have games). But she otherwise will not listen when I try to intervene by talking to her (e.g., "Mary, John had that toy first and you can have it when he's done"). She does not go to preschool so her only interaction with peers is at the studio. I've seen her there for 4+ hours before (I take a kickboxing class there after DD1's class).

- "Jane" the owners' 5 year old DD spends a lot of time with Mary. Jane is the youngest in her family and mimics her bossy older sister in her interactions with Mary. Jane will threaten Mary with a spanking when Jane wants something from Mary ("If you don't give me that book you're going to get a spanking!"). Jane also is the one who looked at me blankly when I said, "Jane, I don't think you should be eating Mary's dinner. Do you have some other food to eat?". No reply at all and I know she heard me. She just shoved another spoonful of food into her mouth and grinned. Talk about defiant! Then when Mary's dad came in during a water break, he got all exasperated that Jane was eating Mary's dinner! He said something like, "hey, we are all family here and have to look out for one another," which I took as a rebuke of the parents who didn't stop Jane from eating Mary's dinner.

- Another reason I stopped waiting in the room and bringing Dd2 is that she started mimicking some of the behavior (e.g., jumping on the couches, screaming loudly with glee without regard to the fact that we are inside a small space). I got tired of telling her not to do that, with Mary smiling ear-to-ear as she continued to jump on the couches despite my telling them both not to do that. DD2 would then say, "But Mary is jumping, too...". My typical response was, "There's no jumping on the couches" without commenting on the fact that I couldn't stop Mary from doing that.

I understand that the dynamics of being outside the classroom and outside the direct supervision of a parent is unusual. So it's possible the 5 year old listened to her kindergarten teacher last year and just doesn't care what other adults say when she is at her parents' studio. I realize I have no authority over these 2 and they know that, too. But kids know when they're doing something wrong and I wonder if my DDs, too, would ignore a parent who reminded them of that fact.

Needless to say, I'm reluctant to have DD2 do a playdate with Mary and Jane, despite the invite from Mary's dad to do so. He said he had Jane sleep over already and wanted to invite DD2. I begged off due to age (I think 4 is too young, even if I adored the other kid!). Apparently, Mary has told him my DD2 is her best friend!?! We really like this studio and Mary's dad is a great instructor but I am anxious about this whole situation. I don't want DD2 to cultivate a friendship with Mary but I also feel badly for her. I'm guessing she is just lonely. It's further complicated by the fact that DD2 started taking a class there as of last month when she turned 4. Yes, it is with both Mary and Jane. It's also taught byMary's dad. He is the only one who teaches 4-5 year olds. This could be a whole new thread topic itself!

Your thoughts are welcome. Note that neither girl has special needs, so I think it's just a sign of immaturity or selective defiance.

[Melaine]

Wow...that is all kinds of messed up. There are problems from several sides IMO.

My first observation is that all of this is very contrary to the "spirit" of martial arts. Respect & discipline are major foundational principles. I would seriously question that legitimacy of a school whose owner and teachers weren't better able to teach their own kids basic manners and respect. It may seem silly, but this is seriously a problem. I think the good teachers pass these principles to their students as well as their own families.

Secondly, it is completely inappropriate that waiting families should be monitoring these kids while they are in the waiting room. You are paying for your children to be taught, and it seems they should be paying you to babysit at the same time. The passive aggressive comment about "family" would make me angry. It's seriously awkward to have to discipline someone else's children, in front of other adults no less, and certainly not something you should feel obligated to do.

There are some really good MA studios and I would honestly look for a different one. This is not the kind of situation that I would want my family to be in long term.

ETA: Sorry, to answer your question, yes my children listen and respond to other adults. I do think this is partially because they are naturally compliant children. But I think it's important to teach your children to respect and listen to other adults. In this situation, these kids are not doing that at all. I will say that some of my best friends children do not listen and obey me when their parents are not around. And I'm frankly not willing to babysit or even have them for playdates for that reason. Some parents are much more permissive and we teach and expect quick obedience from our kids.

[fedoragirl]

Are there cultural differences as in is the family from another country? That changes the perspective on this situation which is very inappropriate.

[crl]

I think that situation is just untenable and that no kid would behave or listen to other adults in that scenario. I would seriously consider switching to a different studio so I didn't have to witness that on an ongoing basis.

My kids do listen to other adults. We lived in a neighborhood with lots of other kids and moms around and outside all the time and my kids are very used to other parents giving safety orders, negotiating toy sharing, mediating fights, etc.

Catherine

[elliput]

So let me get this straight- the parents of the students in class (paying clients) are expected to babysit the children of the owner and the instructor?

[wellyes]

I would be extremely uncomfortable in that situation. You can't work if you have kids that age and no childcare. People who are strangers to the girls does not = childcare. They know you don't care about them or for them the way a nanny or DCP or teacher would. They know the only consequence is dad comes out and punishes. The younger one is likely seeking his attention any way she can get it. It's a bad situation.

I also think kids should NOT be asked to obey any adult who happens to be in the waiting room. I am not terribly paranoid about stranger danger, but that's just going too far.

ETA - yes, my kids do listen to other adults. Yesterday we were in a museum and they were asked to shush by a guard and did so immediately. But, have them play in that museum for hours on end multiple days a week, that would probably change their attitude.

[boolady]

I would be extremely uncomfortable in that situation. You can't work if you have kids that age and no childcare. People who are strangers to the girls does not = childcare. They know you don't care about them or for them the way a nanny or DCP or teacher would. They know the only consequence is dad comes out and punishes. The younger one is likely seeking his attention any way she can get it. It's a bad situation.

I also think kids should NOT be asked to obey any adult who happens to be in the waiting room. I am not terribly paranoid about stranger danger, but that's just going too far.

ETA - yes, my kids do listen to other adults. Yesterday we were in a museum and they were asked to shush by a guard and did so immediately. But, have them play in that museum for hours on end multiple days a week, that would probably change their attitude.

:yeahthat: exactly.

[123LuckyMom]

My kids absolutely do listen to other adults, but I guarantee that almost any kid in these kids' situation would not. Why? Because there are absolutely no consequences to their actions. They are basically being left unattended for multiple hours in the day. They know the adults watching have no authority over them and that no matter what they do, they will be back again in the same circumstances tomorrow. Nothing will change, so why should they change their behavior?

The only "correction" they receive is the threat of spanking or a spanking. I, personally, believe that spanking is an ineffective tool in the parenting kit, and I think this situation bears that out. All a spanking provides is a momentary feeling of pain. It teaches nothing and changes nothing. These children are smart enough to know that. They do what they want. They sometimes get a spanking, and then they do it again. The reward is worth the risk. Even if spanking works for you, it is clearly ineffective for these kids in this circumstance.

These kids need REAL supervision from an adult whose mission is to care about them and their well being. They need appropriate stimulation and appropriate discipline. Most of all, they need positive attention, not to be left to their own devices in the waiting room of a studio. Though there are toys and other kids and adults, this is a VERY different environment than a daycare, school, or camp. I know child care is a HUGE expense, believe me! I still think, though, that the owner and instructor need to come up with some kind of plan, or they will not only hurt their children, they will hurt their business, too.

I would withdraw from the studio. They may be teaching a series of movements, but they are not following the values they purport to teach. I would like to think I would be brave enough to write a letter explaining why I was leaving, much as you did in your post, or (much more sensitively than I did here) as I did in this one. I like to think I would also suggest that the situation might change dramatically if the children had someone to care for them outside of the studio. Frankly, I feel sorry for those children. I think their awful behavior is a symptom of their circumstances. I would be too upset to witness it to continue at the studio.

[belovedgandp]

The kids are in a no-win situation. No 4 or 5 year old could maintain appropriate behavior day after day in this situation. If this was a once in a while thing, I would suck it up, but knowing this is their every day arrangement is not acceptable.

I did change gymnastics places for this exact reason. Instructor's child in gym - not enrolled but supposedly waiting on the side, but requiring attention of the instructor and using equipment at times designated for the paying students.

The behavior of siblings during our martial arts classes in a small waiting area drives me crazy. The studio owners have done what they can, but this is up to the parents sitting next to them. I still find myself leaving more than staying because of the insanity.

[Momit]

Wow...that is all kinds of messed up. There are problems from several sides IMO.

My first observation is that all of this is very contrary to the "spirit" of martial arts. Respect & discipline are major foundational principles. I would seriously question that legitimacy of a school whose owner and teachers weren't better able to teach their own kids basic manners and respect. It may seem silly, but this is seriously a problem. I think the good teachers pass these principles to their students as well as their own families.

Secondly, it is completely inappropriate that waiting families should be monitoring these kids while they are in the waiting room. You are paying for your children to be taught, and it seems they should be paying you to babysit at the same time. The passive aggressive comment about "family" would make me angry. It's seriously awkward to have to discipline someone else's children, in front of other adults no less, and certainly not something you should feel obligated to do.

There are some really good MA studios and I would honestly look for a different one. This is not the kind of situation that I would want my family to be in long term.

ETA: Sorry, to answer your question, yes my children listen and respond to other adults. I do think this is partially because they are naturally compliant children. But I think it's important to teach your children to respect and listen to other adults. In this situation, these kids are not doing that at all. I will say that some of my best friends children do not listen and obey me when their parents are not around. And I'm frankly not willing to babysit or even have them for playdates for that reason. Some parents are much more permissive and we teach and expect quick obedience from our kids.


:yeahthat: Sounds like an awful situation. How unprofessional and rude for the owners/instructors to expect their students' parents to act as referees with their own bratty kids.

And yes, my DS listens to other adults (sometimes more than he listens to me, sigh) - but I have seen plenty of kids who don't.

[ahisma]

The kids are in a no-win situation. No 4 or 5 year old could maintain appropriate behavior day after day in this situation. If this was a once in a while thing, I would suck it up, but knowing this is their every day arrangement is not acceptable.

I agree completely. These kids are set up for failure.

My kids do listen to other adults, better than they listen to me most of the time. I have no idea how they would respond in this situation. I think they'd still listen, but...being stuck in a studio for hours on end at that age with no supervision - yikes.

I'd probably leave the studio. If I was going to stay for some reason, I'd probably offer to take the kids to a park or something. Not your responsibility at all, but it sounds like it would be more pleasant for you and for them.

[smiles33]

Are there cultural differences as in is the family from another country? That changes the perspective on this situation which is very inappropriate.

Both kids' parents are American-born, so I don't think cultural differences are at play. Both dads are primary caretakers, though (moms are FT WOHM and I only see them after 6:30 pm when I'm there for my class and they come in to work out). I hesitate to say this, but I do think dads have different "cultural" expectations of how their kids behave when not directly under their supervision. DH is not as sensitive as I am to how our kids might be making a negative impression on other parents...Both dads are strict with students and expect (and receive) absolute compliance and diligence in class. That is the irony of this situation. DH visited several MA studios and this was way ahead of the pack in the sense of family values, discipline, and not being a conveyor belt (e.g., some studios offer belt testing every month as opposed to this one which does it only twice/year and ONLY when students are actually ready, so that usually means just once/year for most students). We've been going there 2 years now and I also go there for my kickboxing class. I don't think we're likely to withdraw, as we're happy with everything but the dynamics in that waiting room.


So let me get this straight- the parents of the students in class (paying clients) are expected to babysit the children of the owner and the instructor?

There are huge wall-to-ceiling glass windows between the two rooms, so I suspect the dads assume they can keep an eye on the girls. But watching two girls talking through a window doesn't convey that one is being mean/bossy, or provoking the other one into a crying tantrum. So yes, I totally agree with you but I can see how they think they're covered.


I would be extremely uncomfortable in that situation. You can't work if you have kids that age and no childcare. People who are strangers to the girls does not = childcare. They know you don't care about them or for them the way a nanny or DCP or teacher would. They know the only consequence is dad comes out and punishes. The younger one is likely seeking his attention any way she can get it. It's a bad situation.

I also think kids should NOT be asked to obey any adult who happens to be in the waiting room. I am not terribly paranoid about stranger danger, but that's just going too far.

I agree. I think the hard part here is that they push the "we're all family" concept hard and they don't think of the students' parents as strangers. Yet I was VERY shocked the first time Mary climbed onto the lap of a new dad to see what he was doing on his cell phone. She literally bent down between his legs and squeezed in under his hands (he was holding the phone above his lap as he looked at it). The dad was even more shocked and gently set her aside. Her total ease around strangers is disconcerting.


My kids absolutely do listen to other adults, but I guarantee that almost any kid in these kids' situation would not. Why? Because there are absolutely no consequences to their actions. They are basically being left unattended for multiple hours in the day. They know the adults watching have no authority over them and that no matter what they do, they will be back again in the same circumstances tomorrow. Nothing will change, so why should they change their behavior?

The only "correction" they receive is the threat of spanking or a spanking. I, personally, believe that spanking is an ineffective tool in the parenting kit, and I think this situation bears that out. All a spanking provides is a momentary feeling of pain. It teaches nothing and changes nothing. These children are smart enough to know that. They do what they want. They sometimes get a spanking, and then they do it again. The reward is worth the risk. Even if spanking works for you, it is clearly ineffective for these kids in this circumstance.

These kids need REAL supervision from an adult whose mission is to care about them and their well being. They need appropriate stimulation and appropriate discipline. Most of all, they need positive attention, not to be left to their own devices in the waiting room of a studio. Though there are toys and other kids and adults, this is a VERY different environment than a daycare, school, or camp. I know child care is a HUGE expense, believe me! I still think, though, that the owner and instructor need to come up with some kind of plan, or they will not only hurt their children, they will hurt their business, too.

I would withdraw from the studio. They may be teaching a series of movements, but they are not following the values they purport to teach. I would like to think I would be brave enough to write a letter explaining why I was leaving, much as you did in your post, or (much more sensitively than I did here) as I did in this one. I like to think I would also suggest that the situation might change dramatically if the children had someone to care for them outside of the studio. Frankly, I feel sorry for those children. I think their awful behavior is a symptom of their circumstances. I would be too upset to witness it to continue at the studio.

I quoted your entire post because there is so much here that I agree with, yet I am incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of confrontation. I strongly oppose any corporal punishment and I was very uncomfortable watching Mary's dad swat her on the bottom. Yet I'm trying to be respectful of others' parenting styles. I realize formula feeding/CIO/disposable diapering/insert-parenting-choice-here are not the same as corporal punishment, but the swatting isn't something Child Protective Services is going to investigate. So I shut my mouth and look away.

I also completely understand that I lack any authority over these kids, they know it, and that's why I choose to avoid the waiting room. I think your point is fair--any kid in this situation would turn out like this and it's unfair to both girls that they're put in this situation. Yet I still can't write the letter. These guys know everyone in our community (it's the most popular MA studio) and DH is an orthodontist here. A significant number of his patients go to this MA studio and I don't want to leave on bad terms. Plus, the older students' parents just drop them off and leave so I bet most of them don't even realize there's a situation at hand. It's parents with kids under 7 who linger in the waiting room and we're the ones who end up dealing with the girls. Now that DD1 is 7 and has been there for 2 years, I feel much better dropping her off and leaving.

I recognize it's cowardly to deal with this by just avoiding the waiting room, but I'm not comfortable telling these fathers that their sweet princesses are real divas when the dads aren't paying attention. What parent wants to hear that from an acquaintance?

Anyhow, thanks for letting me vent and helping me realize the behavior is really just a product of a bad set-up.

[123LuckyMom]

I don't think it's cowardly for you not to want to write, and I understand your not wanting to leave either. I live in a small town, and I absolutely get it! I guess you'll have to tolerate it until your DD is 7 :(. Or, all the parents they bother could chip in to buy them each a smart phone and a subscription to Netflix ;).

[maestramommy]

I don't know what to say, except that the studio where my kids used to go for TKD had the same exact problem. The owner has a 7yo DS who frankly, is a bully and manipulative to boot. I once saw him leaning over DD1 trying to whisper something, and she was staring at him obviously not getting it. I nipped that one in the bud fast. They also have a now 4yo DD who is shaping up just like her older brother. There could be many reasons for this, but imo one reason is that the parents are so busy running the school that the kids are left largely in the care of their aged grandparents, and pretty much to their own devices. It's almost funny because they are also students at the school, and have been severely reprimanded by one of the instructors a number a times for behavior outside of class.

I'm actually glad we're no longer there, and if our kids wanted to try martial arts again in the future, we'd try another studio.

[vejemom]

I'm so gonna get my copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People revoked for saying this, lol. But TKD and most karate schools make me roll my eyes. 8 year old "black belts", ridiculously unprofessional instructors like the ones in the OP, most of those "dojos" are a mess. And the worst part is it's not remotely useful as self defense. Karate can teach you a fluid, darting fighting style (ala Machado), but the moves themselves aren't well suited to self defense. And you could learn the same lightness and speed doing boxing and have skill that translates well if you're ever attacked. For real world self-defense, some combination of Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, Judo, and submission wrestling would be the way to go.

I realize that people put their kids into martial arts for other reasons, and I get it and respect that. But I get POed reading about the unprofessionalism that seems so rampant at these dojos. If they won't get a babysitter, these guys at least need to get their kids participating in the classes. Although even that splits your attention to a degree. I used to occasionally bring my kids to a general music class I taught. I didn't like to do it, though, because I found that they still demanded more of my attention and it wasn't fair to the other students.

[smiles33]

I'm so gonna get my copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People revoked for saying this, lol. But TKD and most karate schools make me roll my eyes. 8 year old "black belts", ridiculously unprofessional instructors like the ones in the OP, most of those "dojos" are a mess. And the worst part is it's not remotely useful as self defense. Karate can teach you a fluid, darting fighting style (ala Machado), but the moves themselves aren't well suited to self defense. And you could learn the same lightness and speed doing boxing and have skill that translates well if you're ever attacked. For real world self-defense, some combination of Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, Judo, and submission wrestling would be the way to go.

I realize that people put their kids into martial arts for other reasons, and I get it and respect that. But I get POed reading about the unprofessionalism that seems so rampant at these dojos. If they won't get a babysitter, these guys at least need to get their kids participating in the classes. Although even that splits your attention to a degree. I used to occasionally bring my kids to a general music class I taught. I didn't like to do it, though, because I found that they still demanded more of my attention and it wasn't fair to the other students.

No disagreement from me here. FWIW, we chose this studio because we wanted DD1 to gain confidence and be able to defend herself, not just do pretty forms. This is an MMA studio, not the local neighborhood TKD/karate/etc. chain where 8 years olds (like DH's friend's son) are testing for black belts (??!?!). It's taken DD1 2 years to earn her yellow belt, so they are serious here. They teach muay thai, wrestling, judo, eskrima, kickboxing, and kajukenbo (hybrid martial art/street-fighting that originated in Hawaii). Both of the girls in question are in classes, but the 4-5 year olds are only in class once/week.

Again, but for the lax babysitting (or lack thereof), we really like this place.

[randomkid]

I would be tempted to offer free babysitting services to the parents of these girls in the time that you are there in exchange for free classes! Then, you would be an adult in an authority position with those girls and then they MIGHT listen. That entire situation is a nightmare and I feel sorry for those girls. I don't think this has anything to do with kids listening or not listening to other adults. This is clearly a bad situation for these poor kids and I am not surprised in the least by their behavior. They are obviously attention seeking and I find it rather sad. I'm sure they know that their parents are "big shots" at this studio and that nobody is going to say anything. Maybe if all the parents who are waiting rallied together to complain, something would change. It is quite ironic that these "masters of discipline" have such unruly children. I wonder what they are like at home. I'd be tempted to take video of these kids on several different days then show it to their Mothers when they come in to work out!