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View Full Version : Desperate....again. Please advise on sleep....again



Melaine
09-23-2013, 01:46 AM
I am writing this at 1:40 since I am up anyway. DS is destroying my will to live.

17 months and waking up tons of times, from 3-5 a night. He has been waking for the day between 4:30 and 5. His naps are still short. 30 minutes to an hour. Usually 45. about 9 and 2 but he is waking so early that even holding him off until 9 is hard.

Tonight he has been crying for over an hour and a half. He'll stop for a couple minutes, then start again. He's hoarse. I go in there and he begs to nurse.

I have got. to. wean. I am desperate to get back on anxiety meds. I am desperate for sleep. I cannot nap during the day. I am homeschooling the girls so it's not like they are off to school, and even if they were I cannot take naps. He nurses all day long, tons of times. This has got to stop. I have no idea what to do. PLEASE help.

goldenpig
09-23-2013, 02:32 AM
Oh dear, I'm so sorry Melaine! I am the last person who should give sleeping advice as all three of my babies were poor sleepers, but I can definitely commiserate. I'm still getting up with my 6 month old at least 2-3x a night on a good night and every hour on bad nights (usually when I eat something by accident that contains dairy, soy or eggs--he is allergic to all 3). Yet it seems like all of my friends have had babies who sleep 12 hours a night starting at 8 weeks. :angry-smiley-005: I tried to do CIO with DD and she would just cry and scream for over an hour and then throw up. All 3 of my kiddos have had silent reflux and dairy intolerance so I think they just couldn't sleep through the night because of the reflux. I think I started trying to night wean DD around 18 months...found one of my old posts about the process.
http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?369081-cosleeping-mamas-when-and-how-did-you-tranfer-your-child-to-his-her-own-bed&p=2828922#post2828922
Both of my kids did not sleep through the night until about 2. DS1 still wakes up once or twice a night from scary dreams or wanting me to fix his covers. So between him and DS2 and work I am exhausted!

Couple of thoughts/suggestions for you:
1)I thought you had previously mentioned your DS was milk protein intolerant...are you still on the dairy free diet and is your DS also dairy free? If not and he is being exposed to dairy, maybe that could be contributing to his waking? My DS's always woke up a lot more if they were exposed to dairy.
2)Sounds like he might have a sleep association with nursing and is comfort nursing a lot during the day? Can you rock him to sleep at night when he wakes? Gradually limit the time of nursing? Pick one nursing session to drop at night and rock and comfort back to sleep?
3)DD was also constantly nursing during the day as well as at night. She was a toddler but nursing like a newborn. I had to teach her some nursing limits. I was advised by a sleep consultant to once a day during the daytime, pick a time where they are demanding to nurse (again) and you say, "No, it's not time for nursing right now." Only do this when you have time to deal with the inevitable tantrum. OMG she threw huge fits. She would cry and scream lie down on the floor beating her hands and feet on the floor in a rage. For an hour or more. You have to just let her tantrum run its course, hold her, comfort her, but no nursing. Then later after she's calmed down and some time has passed, say, "Now it's time for nursing!" That was super hard, but it helped because she started to learn how to soothe with other means than the boob, and at night I could say "it's not time for milk, it's time to sleep, we'll have milk in the morning" and she started learning to sleep without nursing. She had to learn the delayed gratification, and it was better to teach her that during the day rather than at 4 am.

Good luck with your DS, none of the sleep training was easy or quick for me and I still don't feel like I have a good handle on sleep issues. I'm such a pushover. DS2 starts the night in his crib but then ends up in my bed the rest of the night. I tried letting DS2 cry in his crib the other night and I just could not do it--after 15 min he was in my bed nursing to sleep again. I hope you can figure something out because I can tell you are exhausted and at the end of your rope! I've been there many times too! Hugs! :hug:

queenmama
09-23-2013, 03:08 AM
I couldn't read without replying. Our babes are the same age and we have some of the same issues, which leads me to believe that all Water Dragons are determined to put their mamas through their paces. :sly:

Lara

jgenie
09-23-2013, 03:11 AM
:hug: I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. I remember being at the same place with DS2 and how desperate I was. I used the Jay Gordon (http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html) method to wean DS2. Good luck!

amom526
09-23-2013, 06:28 AM
I am writing this at 1:40 since I am up anyway. DS is destroying my will to live.

17 months and waking up tons of times, from 3-5 a night. He has been waking for the day between 4:30 and 5. His naps are still short. 30 minutes to an hour. Usually 45. about 9 and 2 but he is waking so early that even holding him off until 9 is hard.

Tonight he has been crying for over an hour and a half. He'll stop for a couple minutes, then start again. He's hoarse. I go in there and he begs to nurse.

I have got. to. wean. I am desperate to get back on anxiety meds. I am desperate for sleep. I cannot nap during the day. I am homeschooling the girls so it's not like they are off to school, and even if they were I cannot take naps. He nurses all day long, tons of times. This has got to stop. I have no idea what to do. PLEASE help.

Anyone would be driven insane by this situation! I don't have much advice about weaning, but moving to one nap may help things. Do you have any way to get him back to sleep at 4 am. If you could get him back to sleep for a couple days, you could move him to a 12 pm nap which will hopefully help his night sleep also. What about taking him in the car at 4am? Stroller? Obviously not what you want to be doing before dawn, but just temporarily to try and get out of this pattern.

TwinFoxes
09-23-2013, 06:46 AM
I'm pretty sure my DDs had moved to one nap at that age. Try doing an early afternoon nap, right after lunch. Don't let him sleep too long. You can even move lunch to 11:30, get him down before 1pm.

Does he have a special blanket or pillow? One he can use for soothing? With my DD who needs more soothing, having a special blanket helped. It is soft and had two textures, so it gave her something to rub and soothe herself with.

Good luck. I would have locked myself in a closet I think. :hug:

mommylamb
09-23-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm so sorry. And I feel your pain. DS2 (19 months) is a crappy, crappy sleeper and I often feel the same way (your destroying my will to live comment made some sense to me, sadly). There are times when DH and I look at each other and say, "and why did we want to have a second child." and then we feel super guilty about it because we do love him so much. He went through a big transition in the last month-- changing from our beloved home daycare to a center program, which we did for a number of very good reasons... in the long term. In the short term, it sucks. Plus, I had to go away for work for a week right after he did the switch, so his world was thrown totally upside down. It made a normally not great sleeper into a TERRIBLE sleeper again. It has made functioning at work extremely difficult for me.

So, I feel your pain and I'm sorry. There is a reason why sleep deprivation is a form of torture.

ETA: Most definitely move to 1 nap. And, no guilt on your part if you decide to ween.

Melaine
09-23-2013, 10:20 AM
Oh guys thank you so much. I really needed the commiseration and these tips are really good. I would love to move to one nap but he is sometimes falling down sleepy by mid-morning so it is really hard to make it to lunch time. Also, when I do make it sometimes he only sleeps about the same as one nap: as little as 45 minutes. Should I just power through and be consistent with one nap in hopes that will change?

I will come back to the thread and respond to more things, I'm also working on the BFing thing which is a huge obstacle. I've put on a really tight, high necked bra and a high t-shirt, and am telling him no. I've got to set boundaries.

Pilotbaby
09-23-2013, 10:23 AM
First of all- yay to you for nursing for 17 months! Are you wanting to night wean or would you be ok with maybe one night nursing at a time determined by you? As far as the sleep, it sounds to me like there is a strong possibility he is overtired. Early wake ups often signal being over tired. I know that sounds strange. Also, a sleep cycle is 45 minutes so those short naps that he is getting are probably not refreshing him at all. We had to move to naps that are at least an hour and a half (two full sleep cycles) to get really well rested. What does your schedule look like as far as bedtime and nap times? If you are really desperate and wanting change, you might need to overhaul your schedule a bit. If you want to post more details, I can share with you what worked for us. Good luck to you!

TwinFoxes
09-23-2013, 10:39 AM
Oh guys thank you so much. I really needed the commiseration and these tips are really good. I would love to move to one nap but he is sometimes falling down sleepy by mid-morning so it is really hard to make it to lunch time. Also, when I do make it sometimes he only sleeps about the same as one nap: as little as 45 minutes. Should I just power through and be consistent with one nap in hopes that will change?

I will come back to the thread and respond to more things, I'm also working on the BFing thing which is a huge obstacle. I've put on a really tight, high necked bra and a high t-shirt, and am telling him no. I've got to set boundaries.

I really think you have to break the cycle. Power through a few days with no nap in the morning, give him an early afternoon nap. I would feed him at 11-11:30, and put him down right after. He'll probably be very refreshed after. I really think one nap will also help him to get to sleep in the evening. I really hope it works. Good luck!

Melaine
09-23-2013, 10:42 AM
First of all- yay to you for nursing for 17 months! Are you wanting to night wean or would you be ok with maybe one night nursing at a time determined by you? As far as the sleep, it sounds to me like there is a strong possibility he is overtired. Early wake ups often signal being over tired. I know that sounds strange. Also, a sleep cycle is 45 minutes so those short naps that he is getting are probably not refreshing him at all. We had to move to naps that are at least an hour and a half (two full sleep cycles) to get really well rested. What does your schedule look like as far as bedtime and nap times? If you are really desperate and wanting change, you might need to overhaul your schedule a bit. If you want to post more details, I can share with you what worked for us. Good luck to you!


Well, I'd like to move towards completely weaning so I can get on meds. But sleep is more important than weaning at this point. We have always been very consistent with schedules and have tried tweaking them but have never had any actual sleep success with DS. I have read straight through Ferber a couple times and used it to get him back to his crib from co-sleeping but still haven't had the real turn around I'd hoped for.

Our schedule is:
bedtime 6:30
waking at 5 (obviously NOT what I want but not sure about CIO at that hour of the morning?)
nap at 9 (have tried variations, 9:30 or 10)
nap at 2 (have tried as early as 1)

Feedback welcome!

ETA: responding to a few more things, he doesn't care about any lovey I have found. He does sleep with one but completely ignores it. The girls loved theirs! But they weren't BF!

He isn't a stroller sleeper and really doesn't sleep in the car much either. DH says we need to CIO at 5 and I guess so he just wakes up seeming so AWAKE at that time.

TwinFoxes
09-23-2013, 11:01 AM
6:30 is pretty early, especially this time of year when it's still light out. Does his room have black out curtains? I'd try that (although the time change is coming soon). Our bedtime at that age was between 7-7:30, and I think we wear gone of the earlier bed times I knew about. They'd sleep from about 7pm-7am. DD didn't get attached to her blankie until around two years old. So don't give up on that.

This is was our routine at that age (not saying it's perfect, or the answer to your situation).
Announce its time for PJs.
Undress them.
They would run laps as "naked babies".
Diapers/PJs on. We would sing our sleepy time song (with the clever lyrics of "sleepy sleepy, it's time to go to sleep...mommy loves, it's time to go to sleep.Daddy loves you...)
bedtime stories in their cribs.
take turns nursing in rocking chair, darkened room (I weaned at about that age, I needed hypertension meds)
turned on their crib toys that mad music/light show
sang sleepy time song softly as I left

It was a multi-step routine, but it really seemed to work.

Dogs your our little guy take a bottle at all? Maybe warm milk help, cold might be too different for him. You can wipe his teeth with a damp washcloth to prevent bottle rot.

DietCokeLover
09-23-2013, 11:04 AM
Oh, I so feel your pain. DS woke anywhere from 8 to 12 times per night for the first 11 months of his life. Then we "progressed" to about half that. It was torture. At 5, he is still not a great sleeper.

The only thing that ever seemed to work a little for us was just to physically wear him out. Lots of walking, playing, running. Maybe try upping his actual physical activity and see if it burns some of that excess energy he is drawing from.

I am certainly no expert, but I sure can commiserate!

Melaine
09-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Thanks TwinFoxes, 6:30 does seem early but it was the girls' bedtime at this age and since I am so freakin' tired that is what we landed on for DS. Plus the girls actually go to bed at 7:30 so it's nice to have an hour with them before they go down. If pushing back would help wake-up though I am willing to try. We do have blackout curtains.

He doesn't take a bottle and doesn't actually do a beverage consistently in place of milk due to allergy. We still don't do milk, cheese, yogurt for him although I have let some stuff slip through like goldfish for convenience sake. To pp who mentioned allergies maybe I need to be more vigilant on the dairy but it's always been such a guessing game with him, even in the early days when I was cutting out everything myself. The girls are dairy free though so I don't intend to be buying any more major dairy items.

He does get water, Naked or similar juices, sometimes a cup of coconut milk or almond milk. I've wondered if I should offer a sippy of water during the night when he wakes but didn't know if that would just complicate matters.

Melaine
09-23-2013, 11:09 AM
Oh, I so feel your pain. DS woke anywhere from 8 to 12 times per night for the first 11 months of his life. Then we "progressed" to about half that. It was torture. At 5, he is still not a great sleeper.

The only thing that ever seemed to work a little for us was just to physically wear him out. Lots of walking, playing, running. Maybe try upping his actual physical activity and see if it burns some of that excess energy he is drawing from.

I am certainly no expert, but I sure can commiserate!

I have noticed that on super active days, like all day trip to the lake he may sleep closer to 2 hours for nap which seems like heaven of course. But normal days with playing on the swing set, going to the zoo, running at the park, those don't seem to phase him.

Pilotbaby
09-23-2013, 11:22 AM
I think maybe your first nap is a little bit late. You might be missing the sleep window by 9 and that might account for the short nap. Have you tried doing the first nap three hours after wake up? Then a second nap later in the afternoon? We do a 8:30 (ish) bedtime which might be a little on the late side for some people. Our 18 month old sleeps until 6 or 7. She used to wake very early and I had to teach her how to sleep until at least 6 because I really couldn't function well earlier than that. She still takes two naps- usually two hours each. The better she naps, the better she sleeps at night. Overtired babies tend not to sleep well so you really want him well rested when he goes to bed.
I second the comment about making sure the room is really dark. Have you tried a white noise machine? They can be really soothing for babies who wake up between sleep cycles and might help with your short naps too.
How does he fall asleep at bedtime? Does he nurse to sleep? Do you put him in the crib already sleeping? We had frequent wake ups throughout the night until about 9 months of age when we finally started working with a sleep consultant who taught us a lot about sleep and sleep cycles etc. We did not do CIO but she taught us a method that really worked for us.




Well, I'd like to move towards completely weaning so I can get on meds. But sleep is more important than weaning at this point. We have always been very consistent with schedules and have tried tweaking them but have never had any actual sleep success with DS. I have read straight through Ferber a couple times and used it to get him back to his crib from co-sleeping but still haven't had the real turn around I'd hoped for.

Our schedule is:
bedtime 6:30
waking at 5 (obviously NOT what I want but not sure about CIO at that hour of the morning?)
nap at 9 (have tried variations, 9:30 or 10)
nap at 2 (have tried as early as 1)

Feedback welcome!

ETA: responding to a few more things, he doesn't care about any lovey I have found. He does sleep with one but completely ignores it. The girls loved theirs! But they weren't BF!

He isn't a stroller sleeper and really doesn't sleep in the car much either. DH says we need to CIO at 5 and I guess so he just wakes up seeming so AWAKE at that time.

DualvansMommy
09-23-2013, 12:01 PM
Wanted to share my sympathies with you! It does sound so hard on you.

My DS gave up his morning nap around 12-14 months old, if I recall but because he was a late riser at 730am. He never took his morning nap till 11am and ts just for 45 mins usually then napped again at 3 till 5 and went to bed at 8pm.

I hated that schedule as he wasn't a good napper in car seat nor stroller, so i was really limited in my mornings till he had his 11am nap. Once he dropped his 11am with me powering on for a week without that nap, he would naturally start to wake earlier at 7am and get tired around 1230. I would start lunch 1145-noon to feed him by 1215 and he'll be tired for his nap by then. He always went down easily by 1245 or 1 without issues and wake up by 3pm.

I know it's really hard to keep your LO awake once he's sleepy, maybe go outside and do fun activity with him to power on without morning nap? Do that for at least 4-5 days to break through and see how he falls asleep for his afternoon nap. Try starting your bedtime routine by 630 but don't let him get into his crib till 7 to go asleep.

But the biggest thing for my DS if he napped well, he always went to sleep easily and slept through the night. If he had a really short nap or restless one; then he wouldn't go to sleep till 830 or 9 that night.

So tough & hang in there!


Cate

Melaine
09-23-2013, 12:06 PM
Thanks all. More follow up: we do have a white noise marpac (?) that works. I also leave fans on in other bedrooms and sometimes in the hall bath. He is a light sleeper for sure but he definitely wakes up on his own often as well. I would say the early nap is too late but he didn't do any better when he was waking later. Up until maybe a month ago he was waking about 6, going down at 9 and 2 and bed at 6:30.

So just to clarify, if we try pushing back bedtime to 7 for now, and try to do just one nap between 12-1pm does that sound like the best plan? Also, do I let him CIO (modified, I always check at intervals a la Ferber) when he wakes between 4 and 5? If so how long? (I'm concerned he may fall back asleep but not until late). Also, do I let him CIO if I think his one nap is too short, like if he wakes up 45 minutes into it?

He always goes to sleep easily at night and I always put him down awake. He lays down and goes to sleep on his own. We do all the routine things that the books recommend, etc. etc. I also feel like we have tried most reasonable times over the last 6 months. I just can't seem to beat this.

BabyBearsMom
09-23-2013, 12:17 PM
I definitely agree with PP about black out curtains. They helped a lot when DD1 was a baby. I also think 6:30 is a kind of early bed time. My DD2 is about the age of your DS and our schedule is:

Wake up: 6:15am (I usually wake her up at this time on the weekdays, On the weekends she usually sleeps until 6:30am-7:00am)
Nap: 12:30pm
Bedtime: 7:30ish (sometimes closer to 7pm and sometimes closer to 8 depending on how long her nap was and how hectic the evening is).

We did Ferber with DD1 and I think the number one most important thing was to apply it consistently all the time. At naps, at bedtime, at middle of the night wake ups, all.the.time. I made a hard and fast rule that I absolutely would not pick her up unless I could tell she had poop. Because once they realize that you will pick them up and give them their way, they will keep crying. This sounds mean, but they need to understand that this is sleep time and that there is no hope of being picked up. And, everytime you break the picking up rule, it will set you back for days. It sounds terrible written out like that, but DD1 was a terrible sleeper as an infant and is a rockstar sleeper now and I completely credit that to Ferber. I also try to remind myself that adequate sleep is a health issue and it is important enough that it is worth a few tears (the same way I think of tooth brushing, even though DD2 screams like a banshee the whole time).

As for nursing, I think you need to prioritize yourself and get on your meds and your DS is going to have to deal. Could your DH deal with him at night while you wean? We did this with both girls when we night weaned. DH did all the night wake ups so they didn't see me and think "food time". I don't know about your DS, but my DDs were ridiculously perceptive and if I was anxious, they were anxious and if I am calm, they are calm. Maybe if you could get on your meds, it will help him calm down too.

BDKmom
09-23-2013, 02:04 PM
My kids, thankfully, have both been pretty good sleepers, but DD not until around 11 months. I will give you a rundown of what we do, just in case there is a nugget of help at all. I can only imagine how miserable you must be. My DD is almost 16 months. She goes down for the night at 7 PM with a pacifier. She sometimes wakes up in the night anywhere between 4 and 6 AM. If she does, we go in and quickly give her the paci (usually it has fallen out and she can't find it) and she goes right back to sleep until 7-8 AM. She goes down for her nap (with paci) around noon and usually sleeps 1 hr 15 min to 1 hr 45 min. She has a box fan outside her door whenever she is sleeping.

My DD didn't start sleeping through the night until 11 months, right after she got ear tubes. So my first question would be, is there any chance of undiagnosed ear infections? As far as your DS's early waking, I would pick a time that you think is acceptable for wake up and start gradually working toward that. So, if he wakes up at 4:30, maybe the first day don't go in until 4:40, then a few days later, 4:50, then 5 AM, etc, until you hopefully get to whatever time you feel is OK for wake up. I personally would get nighttime sleep going better before I started taking away naps, but that's just me. If he's waking up at 5 AM, I don't think he can make it until noon without a nap. I agree with others that it sounds like he is way overtired, and you have to find some way to break the cycle.

I know you said he doesn't have a lovey he cares for, but will he take a pacifier? That's really what saves us with DD.

Otherwise, all I can offer is lots of P&PT that things get better for you soon!