Small update in 54: Would you use the garage for time-outs?

[twowhat?]

I know that sounds really bad. But DH really wanted to put DD2 in the minivan last night for her time-out and I wouldn't let him. But - he has a point. DD2's screaming is SO bad that it negatively affects EVERYONE in the house. Especially when it happens at night and impacts DD1's sleep. We have an open concept floor plan and there is literally no place in the house where you cannot hear her loud and clear even with doors shut, and hearing her really makes you want to spank her (we never have, but I have had to restrain myself on many occassions...I totally understand how child abuse happens because of DD2 now).

My argument was that it's not safe. DH's argument is that is it safe - she could scream it out in the van (turned off of course, no key in ignition, inside the garage which is a fairly comfortable temp right now and is attached to the house. and it's an environment she is comfortable in. Of course lights would be on) and everyone inside the house would be happier.

So. He has a point.

Thoughts? Especially from those who have a screamer and truly understand how negatively screaming affects everyone.

And yes, I am calling the ped tomorrow to get some referrals to developmental specialists or child psychologists for DD2. She screamed for 3 HOURS starting at 3am last night. Over a BANDAID.

[Seitvonzu]

i don't have a screamer, but i think those conditions are safe. so long as you check fairly regularly... would DD stay in the car? the scenario i can imagine being unsafe is if DD gets out of the car and starts "tinkering" around in the garage... (we don't have a garage, but most garages i've been in haven't been particularly child friendly -- tools, heavy equiptment/chemicals, large outdoor toys, etc)

i'm sorry you are going through this :( hopefully you can work something out. it does sound like more than typical obstinance :( you have every right to be at your wit's end.

[rin]

Huh. When I first read your title, I thought OMG no way, but your scenario actually seems to make sense. I think I would consider it, in the circumstances you describe.

Have you tried asking DD2 (when she's calm) what she thinks you should do? I've actually had some pretty interesting success doing this with DD1 (who's just barely 3.5). I frame the question by explaining why something isn't working (like, "when you scream and yell in the house it makes everybody's head hurt and it wakes up your sister. What do you think we could do so that you can yell and it doesn't hurt everybody else's ears/head?) and then just see what she says, without giving her the ideas you're thinking of. She might not come up with anything (DD has replied to some of these by suggesting that we should just "let her do what she wants"), but I've found it to be occasionally helpful.

ETA: You don't happen to have a video baby monitor, do you? If so, maybe you could set it up w/no audio in the garage, just so you could keep an eye on what's going on.

[buddyleebaby]

I don't think I would. I'd be worried about dd hurting herself in the car (or trying to get out of the car- picturing doors slammed on little fingers here). I also wouldn't feel comfortable setting the precedent of hanging out in a car without a parent.

I don't think it sounds awful, though. I think it sounds like a Mama trying very hard to find a good solution.

[Indianamom2]

I don't think I would. I'd be worried about dd hurting herself in the car (or trying to get out of the car- picturing doors slammed on little fingers here). I also wouldn't feel comfortable setting the precedent of hanging out in a car without a parent.

I don't think it sounds awful, though. I think it sounds like a Mama trying very hard to find a good solution.

This is what I'm thinking too. I don't think you're a terrible person for trying to figure this out...I'm just not sure this is the solution and I DO understand how stressful this is because this is what DD did for bedtime until she was almost 4 years old. It wears on your nerves like nothing else.

Can you try ear plugs? I would most definitely recommend talking to a developmental pedi. We've been there and done that and looking back do not regret any of it even though it isn't a quick fix. DD is 9 now and has sensory issues, major anxiety and ADHD. But at 3 and younger, we didn't know this and life was really hard for Dh and I. Hang in there....it WILL get easier. :hug:

[Zukini]

I don't think I would. I'd be worried about dd hurting herself in the car (or trying to get out of the car- picturing doors slammed on little fingers here). I also wouldn't feel comfortable setting the precedent of hanging out in a car without a parent.

I don't think it sounds awful, though. I think it sounds like a Mama trying very hard to find a good solution.

:yeahthat: this one would be a doozy to explain in the ER if she happened to get hurt while out there. Depending on what she says and how she says it, you may open a whole other can of worms for your family. Same if someone happened to pass by your house and heard an extended period of screaming from a child coming from the garage.

[liz]

We also have an open floorplan, so when things are really bad we use the mudroom. It has a door that closes off and really muffles the sound. That usually stops them from getting too worked up because they know no one will hear them or care that they are screaming. I say try whatever you can as long as you feel she will be safe and if it doesn't make things more difficult for you.

Sorry to hear about last night, that sounds rough :hug:

[BunnyBee]

No. I'd get everyone those noise blocking earphones and ignore as best as possible. Good luck with finding the right referral.

If you decide to try it, I would make sure one adult it right beside the car, with keys. But absent being out at the store where the car is the only option, something about it seems off. A noisy dog gets crated in the garage.

[s7714]

I read something a while back about a kid who strangled herself in the seatbelt while her mom was standing right next to the car. So no, I wouldn't leave a rampaging child in a vehicle. My 8yo has stellar temper tantrums herself and I wouldn't put her in a car in that state.

Probably doesn't sound much better, but do you have a closet she could sit in? The clothing could help absorb some of the sound. I wouldn't try that if she has a destructive side though. My DD would probably kick the doors to the point of damage.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I don't think I would. I'd be worried about dd hurting herself in the car (or trying to get out of the car- picturing doors slammed on little fingers here). I also wouldn't feel comfortable setting the precedent of hanging out in a car without a parent.

I don't think it sounds awful, though. I think it sounds like a Mama trying very hard to find a good solution.
:yeahthat: this. idea of kids in cars by themselves = huge no-no. but i don't think you guys for bad for considering it.

sending hugs. i can't imagine dealign with screaming for 3 hours. :( can u try the peltor earmuffs (they have kids and adult versions)? we use those to drown out the vitamix, and they really help. or earplugs as someone said (i know many here and IRL have used them for newborn stage).

[twowhat?]

I read something a while back about a kid who strangled herself in the seatbelt while her mom was standing right next to the car. So no, I wouldn't leave a rampaging child in a vehicle. My 8yo has stellar temper tantrums herself and I wouldn't put her in a car in that state.

Probably doesn't sound much better, but do you have a closet she could sit in? The clothing could help absorb some of the sound. I wouldn't try that if she has a destructive side though. My DD would probably kick the doors to the point of damage.

Yeah, I can think of only one closet that MIGHT work (guest bedroom). It is small, and we'd still totally be able to hear her, but maybe it would be less intense. We would also not be able to use that option if a grandparent is staying over. She IS a door-kicker:( And after kicking she opens the door of whatever room we put her in so short of standing there and holding the door shut (which I have totally done for an hour at a time and which totally defeats the purpose of getting away from the noise to calm down and tend to the rest of the household)....ugh. And shoving her in a closet does sound almost as bad (I'm thinking of all those child abuse cases where they find the kid in a closet). Ugh.

That's one thing that sucks about this house - there is nowhere to go. Even the laundry room is RIGHT off the kitchen/dining. And you can hear everything anywhere upstairs even when downstairs because of the giant landing.

What we need is a padded cell...for everyone else. Ha.

I could try earmuffs/plugs but I just can't see how it would be practical because when DD2 is tantruming, the rest of us need to be able to carry on as normal (including having conversation) and having everyone wandering aimlessly around the house wearing earplugs seems to defeat the purpose. And I cannot imagine putting earplugs/earmuffs on DD1 just so she can sleep. If anything it would keep her awake.

DH is definitely right about one thing. The screaming rules the house, and for that we NEED to find a solution. Because we cannot let it rule the house:(

eta: So I tried a PPs suggestion to ask DD2 for ideas. Her first answer: "shut the door". So I told her that we can still hear her. Plus she kicks the door. She didn't have any ideas other than that, but DD1 did: "Mama, I have an idea. She just needs to stop." SIGH. I did coax DD2 into trying to find different ideas and we ended up on "Scream into my blanket". That's something.

[smilequeen]

No but I can see why it's a thought. I will banish a whiner to his room for a while. My screamer is 2 so it's a little harder. For my older 2, there are too many ride ons and hockey equipment in the garage for that to even be a punishment ;)

[JBaxter]

You CAN NOT put your child in a closet for time outs. Thats therapy fodder for YEARS. I also vote no for the garage there are to many things she could get into and injured ~ we keep all manner of tools and yard items in the garage I don't let mine out there alone when they are in a good mood let alone being punished. I vote for headphones or ear pugs if it really bothers you. I can tune out a screaming kid but thats me.
Yeah, I can think of only one closet that MIGHT work (guest bedroom). It is small, and we'd still totally be able to hear her, but maybe it would be less intense. We would also not be able to use that option if a grandparent is staying over. She IS a door-kicker:( And after kicking she opens the door of whatever room we put her in so short of standing there and holding the door shut (which I have totally done for an hour at a time and which totally defeats the purpose of getting away from the noise to calm down and tend to the rest of the household)....ugh. And shoving her in a closet does sound almost as bad (I'm thinking of all those child abuse cases where they find the kid in a closet). Ugh.

That's one thing that sucks about this house - there is nowhere to go. Even the laundry room is RIGHT off the kitchen/dining. And you can hear everything anywhere upstairs even when downstairs because of the giant landing.

What we need is a padded cell...for everyone else. Ha.

I could try earmuffs/plugs but I just can't see how it would be practical because when DD2 is tantruming, the rest of us need to be able to carry on as normal (including having conversation) and having everyone wandering aimlessly around the house wearing earplugs seems to defeat the purpose. And I cannot imagine putting earplugs/earmuffs on DD1 just so she can sleep. If anything it would keep her awake.

DH is definitely right about one thing. The screaming rules the house, and for that we NEED to find a solution. Because we cannot let it rule the house:(

eta: So I tried a PPs suggestion to ask DD2 for ideas. Her first answer: "shut the door". So I told her that we can still hear her. Plus she kicks the door. She didn't have any ideas other than that, but DD1 did: "Mama, I have an idea. She just needs to stop." SIGH. I did coax DD2 into trying to find different ideas and we ended up on "Scream into my blanket". That's something.

[logan's mom]

My 4 year old DS often has time outs in the car while we are out and about. I buckle him into his carseat, then I sit in the drive seat. He hates a time out in the car. He has to remain in his carseat for the 4 minutes. He usually kicks and screams for the first 30 seconds and then begins to calm himself down. I play on my phone, read a book... ignore his behavior but ensure he is safe. I would be okay with doing this kind of time out at home if the car was in the garage.

FWIW, I listened to this book http://www.audible.com/pd/Self-Development/Setting-Limits-with-Your-Strong-Willed-Child-Audiobook/B006C72IS2/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1383504030&sr=1-1 on Audible and it really helped. It changed my perspective on time-out, it's not a punishment but a time for your child to regain self control and then be able to make better choices. It might be worth checking out. (((HUGS)))

[s7714]

You CAN NOT put your child in a closet for time outs. Thats therapy fodder for YEARS. I also vote no for the garage there are to many things she could get into and injured ~ we keep all manner of tools and yard items in the garage I don't let mine out there alone when they are in a good mood let alone being punished. I vote for headphones or ear pugs if it really bothers you. I can tune out a screaming kid but thats me.

At a certain point it's going to be either the child or the parent in therapy after dealing with this type of behavior. Either that or medication. I'm only partly joking.

[nfceagles]

I don't have screamers or tantrum throwers myself, but I had a friend who reached her wits end and tried the following. I was a little shocked by the idea, but she swears it worked after just two instances and, really, it isn't inuring the child. She threw a glass of ice cold water in the child's face when she wouldn't stop screaming. I get that time outs are a chance for a child to calm themselves down not a punishment, but I also think it's not ok for them to think they can impact everyone else's existence so negatively in the meantime.

Good luck whatever you try.

[KpbS]

I've done it before when I was at my wits end with the tantrum/screaming but only when mine were too young to get out of their car seat straps. The lights were on in the garage and our kitchen is one step away so I could continue to hear the screaming for sure but everyone else in the house could get away a bit. If she can unbuckle (which I am sure she can at 4/5) then I wouldn't.

I'm sorry. :hug: I hope you get some answers from the ped psych.

[twowhat?]

At a certain point it's going to be either the child or the parent in therapy after dealing with this type of behavior. Either that or medication. I'm only partly joking.

Yeah, I feel this way too:( I totally need to be medicated, and DH even more than I do. I can actually mostly tune out the screaming but DH really, really cannot (which in turn negatively impacts me). And I have to say I think it's worse for DH to be screaming at DD2 "YOU ARE A SPOILED BRAT" (yes - that happened yesterday - and I don't blame him. It's one of those "unless you've been there..." and DD2 is a HORRIBLE tantrumer) than for her to be put somewhere safe until she can calm down.

It's a bad thing when your kids are at school and you do NOT want to pick them up at the end of the day for fear of what one of them will turn your evening into. It's a bad thing when you are so at odds over what to DO with such a difficult child with your DH that you constantly think of how much easier it would be with a divorce.

None of that is good. I hope we can find a dev. ped who has some solid ideas to help us:(


I get that time outs are a chance for a child to calm themselves down not a punishment, but I also think it's not ok for them to think they can impact everyone else's existence so negatively in the meantime.

Good luck whatever you try.

Thanks for this and that's kind of how I feel. We are all humans with emotions and the natural reaction to DD2's screaming is to go into a rage yourself. Especially when you haven't gotten enough sleep, or have worked a 60 hour week with NO time to yourself. Or whatever. At some point she has to understand that that's really a natural consequence of her behavior. But at the same time I know we just haven't figured out how to help her calm down more quickly. Or - she has other issues (anxiety? sensory issues?) that make her unable to calm down in a more "reasonable" amount of time. Like the normal 15-20 minute tantrums that most everyone else's kid throws. Uuuuugh.

[BunnyBee]

You can't lock your kid in a car to prevent DH from emotionally abusing her. He needs to sit in the car with earphones on. Or leave entirely. He's the adult. I'm so sorry. I hope you find someone quickly! :grouphug:

[ett]

I've done timeouts in the car when they were strapped in the carseat and couldn't unbuckle, but there is no way I would do it if they could get out of the seat. I'm so sorry and I hope you can get some help for her.

[lisams]

I read something a while back about a kid who strangled herself in the seatbelt while her mom was standing right next to the car. So no, I wouldn't leave a rampaging child in a vehicle. My 8yo has stellar temper tantrums herself and I wouldn't put her in a car in that state.


Here's the story of the child who was strangled by the seatbelt (it locks and gets tighter when you pull on it). http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/11/15/mother-offers-warning-after-child-nearly-strangled-in-seat-belt/ I wouldn't do it but I can totally understand the frustration.

[twowhat?]

You can't lock your kid in a car to prevent DH from emotionally abusing her. He needs to sit in the car with earphones on. Or leave entirely. He's the adult. I'm so sorry. I hope you find someone quickly! :grouphug:

and yes - DH has offered to do this. He has noise cancelling headphones. Leaving entirely just isn't practical at 3am. And - it just feeds into the whole "DD2 ruling the household with her screaming". We have to find a way to function normally while she screams, or figure out how to just plain get her to STOP!!!

[doberbrat]

Like a pp, when I saw the title, I was horrified but listening to the details, ... maybe. I'd do the garage before the closet personally but I have issues about dark confining spaces from my childhood. Basement? Is the basement an option? could you get better insulation/soundproofing and a sound machine for dd1's room and then you and dh could use earplugs?

I dont think there is a good solution .... I think, at this point, you might consider it in terms of how can I achieve certain therapy for the least amt of people?? or how can I make the best of a terrible situation.

idk, OP but I really really feel for you and your entire family :(

[BunnyBee]

and yes - DH has offered to do this. He has noise cancelling headphones. Leaving entirely just isn't practical at 3am. And - it just feeds into the whole "DD2 ruling the household with her screaming". We have to find a way to function normally while she screams, or figure out how to just plain get her to STOP!!!

Can you sit in the car with her? With earphones on or whatever? Your other DD should be able to sleep of course.

Does she have a "cool down" spot of her choosing (the goal being to regain control vs punishment)?

For the future appointment, you may want to video some of her meltdowns. Would DH be affected (positively) by seeing his response on video? He cannot use the excuse that DD "made" him lose his temper. If he's a grown man not in control of his emotions, he cannot expect a child to be more mature. No matter how big of a PITA the little girl is being, she is the one who needs to be protected from an out of control adult. She deserves to be treated with love and in a developmentally appropriate manner. It may not be convenient at 3am, but if he's going to be abusive, he needs to leave. It totally sucks that you don't have a grown up with which to share this responsibility right now. It may be faster to get him in with an adult psych for anger management than her to a dev ped, whose wait lists can be long. Something needs to be done for him now while you wait for the answers with her.

[Snow mom]

I was a tantrum thrower as a child (probably nearly as severe as your DD2 :bag) and I wouldn't advise putting her in the garage. My first thought was the child who strangled them self in the seatbelt which PPs have mentioned. Judgement isn't good when throwing a tantrum (obviously) and I'd really worry about putting her anywhere where she could injure herself or get into something she shouldn't. I would go with the closet over the garage, especially if you could set it up as a calming space rather than as a closet. I would also try to worry less about her being "spoiled" or "ruling the household" and worry more about survival/sanity of all household members. I have no idea if it's even possible with your DD but would a strategy of picking your battles work for now? Couldn't she just have the band-aid (or not have the band-aid, whatever the issue was) instead of screaming for three hours? I'm sure you don't want to reward her behavior but maybe reevaluating what battles to fight, what rules you have about once she starts to melt down, etc. would help. I must have just outgrown the tantrum throwing. My parents did spank (which I don't feel particularly scarred by and I have a good relationship with both my parents) but there really wasn't a way to discipline the tantruming out of me. I certainly know I didn't go to therapy and I didn't grow up to be a sociopath or terribly selfish person. I do feel for you as there is no easy solution but hopefully one day you'll be able to look back on this as a challenge you overcame.

[crl]

I haven't read the other answers. But we have used the car as a time out place for ds when he was a screamer. That way one of us could stand outside and watch him to be sure he was safe and the other could be inside and not hear it at all. We did not have a garage so the car was parked on the street. It wasn't a regular occurrence, but we did it a handful of times.

Catherine

[Radosti]

Josh was a screamer. I showed the ped that the only way to break through the screaming was to put my hand over his mouth and tell him to control himself. She could not break through with traditional methods. My method worked and kept him alive until he outgrew the phase. View it as looping behavior. Once he looped, all he heard was his own screaming and continued that loop. Breaking him out of the loop could only be accomplished by being heard over the screaming. Stopping the screaming by putting my hand over his mouth and telling him to control himself worked for whatever reason. Putting him in a room would only continue the looping behavior. I realize that my approach is not conventional, but I have aspergers and this was how I reasoned it out. I feel like in the end, it gave him a tool for dealing with whatever upsets him. He is now the most kind, sweet and sensitive kid I know. I am proud to be his mom, but for a while there, I was very worried. He outgrew it, or learned how to handle his loops.

[annex]

For at home help too, you may want to seek out a Behavior Analyst (BCBA) to do a Functional Behavior Assessment. Ours came to our home and interviewed us about DS's behaviors that were disrupting our family life. We got datasheets to chart the antecedents, behaviors and consequences. And a digital videocamera to be able to share examples of what was going on without the BCBA there. We got individualized coaching in ways to change our parenting methods (in our case to do more positive reinforcement especially since our punishments like timeouts were making the problem worse.) And just in general having an expert ear to bend when we were struggling that got both of us on the same page about how to handle DS was HUGE. Otherwise you are both doing different things (or arguing about what you should do to handle the problem) and it so hard to extinguish disruptive behaviors. Here's a directory if you need help finding one:
http://www.bacb.com/?page=100155

[MMMommy]

This is probably a dumb question, but can the car roll back or forward without the keys if your DD touches the gears? Like, if she accidentally or purposefully changes the gear shift to neutral, drive or reverse, can the car roll without the key in the ignition?

I would not do it, unless you or DH sat in the car with her during the timeout. Which of course defeats the purpose of trying to avoid her shrieking.

[twowhat?]

For at home help too, you may want to seek out a Behavior Analyst (BCBA) to do a Functional Behavior Assessment. Ours came to our home and interviewed us about DS's behaviors that were disrupting our family life. We got datasheets to chart the antecedents, behaviors and consequences. And a digital videocamera to be able to share examples of what was going on without the BCBA there. We got individualized coaching in ways to change our parenting methods (in our case to do more positive reinforcement especially since our punishments like timeouts were making the problem worse.) And just in general having an expert ear to bend when we were struggling that got both of us on the same page about how to handle DS was HUGE. Otherwise you are both doing different things (or arguing about what you should do to handle the problem) and it so hard to extinguish disruptive behaviors. Here's a directory if you need help finding one:
http://www.bacb.com/?page=100155

Huh - I have never heard of this before. Do they all specialize in childrens behavior? Or everyone's behavior? That sounds like it could be really useful for us. Do you just contact one in your area and ask about an assessment? How do they charge? Thanks for this info...I would never have found this on my own.

[twowhat?]

This is probably a dumb question, but can the car roll back or forward without the keys if your DD touches the gears? Like, if she accidentally or purposefully changes the gear shift to neutral, drive or reverse, can the car roll without the key in the ignition?

I would not do it, unless you or DH sat in the car with her during the timeout. Which of course defeats the purpose of trying to avoid her shrieking.

Not with the emergency brake engaged - it won't budge without power. But I do agree with you - I think the only way we could do this is to have someone sitting in the car with her which 1) defeats the purpose of getting away from the noise and 2) makes one of us a "captive audience" which wouldnt be helpful if her behavior is attention-seeking.

All good things to think about - I really really appreciate all the perspectives everyone has offered here. I've heard of the cold water thing before...dunno if I'd have the guts to pull that off!!! But heck, I'm considering anything at this point (as you know!!)

[annex]

Huh - I have never heard of this before. Do they all specialize in childrens behavior? Or everyone's behavior? That sounds like it could be really useful for us. Do you just contact one in your area and ask about an assessment? How do they charge? Thanks for this info...I would never have found this on my own.

They work with everyone. Most of the ones in our area do a lot of work with autistic children, which is why I was aware of them (DS is on the spectrum.) I think though that everyone could benefit from their expertise. We were charged $125/hr for a "behavior coaching" service (live in a relatively high cost of living area, but I thought it was worth the $$$ to have the in-home visits since the problems were entwined in our family life.)

[twowhat?]

They work with everyone. Most of the ones in our area do a lot of work with autistic children, which is why I was aware of them (DS is on the spectrum.) I think though that everyone could benefit from their expertise. We were charged $125/hr for a "behavior coaching" service (live in a relatively high cost of living area, but I thought it was worth the $$$ to have the in-home visits since the problems were entwined in our family life.)

Thank you, thank you. Adding this to my list.

[babygirl1029]

For at home help too, you may want to seek out a Behavior Analyst (BCBA) to do a Functional Behavior Assessment. Ours came to our home and interviewed us about DS's behaviors that were disrupting our family life. We got datasheets to chart the antecedents, behaviors and consequences. And a digital videocamera to be able to share examples of what was going on without the BCBA there. We got individualized coaching in ways to change our parenting methods (in our case to do more positive reinforcement especially since our punishments like timeouts were making the problem worse.) And just in general having an expert ear to bend when we were struggling that got both of us on the same page about how to handle DS was HUGE. Otherwise you are both doing different things (or arguing about what you should do to handle the problem) and it so hard to extinguish disruptive behaviors. Here's a directory if you need help finding one:
http://www.bacb.com/?page=100155


Excellent suggestion and IMO the most likely to really Institute change. Developmental peds can help with diagnosis but the real change has to come in the home where the problem is arising. Setting you up with the proper tools and supporting you as you implement them is a great idea.

And huge hugs to you! We have been enduring horrendous screaming temper tantrums lately after getting rid of the pacifier and it really does get on my last nerve.

[s7714]

I don't have screamers or tantrum throwers myself, but I had a friend who reached her wits end and tried the following. I was a little shocked by the idea, but she swears it worked after just two instances and, really, it isn't inuring the child. She threw a glass of ice cold water in the child's face when she wouldn't stop screaming. I get that time outs are a chance for a child to calm themselves down not a punishment, but I also think it's not ok for them to think they can impact everyone else's existence so negatively in the meantime.

Good luck whatever you try.

That just reminded me of one of DD's teachers. At a P/T conference she was talking about her kids, one of which who was a major handful. She used to put the kid in the shower and turn on the cold shower until he got a grip on himself. She's one of those old school, near retirement age teachers that really is a fantastic teacher, but makes both parents and kids feel like they need to sit up straight and pay attention OR ELSE. ;)

[Momit]

I agree with most PPs that the car and the garage may not be safe enough for a tantruming 5-year-old. Too many things to get into in the garage, plus I also remember that seat belt strangulation incident.

I hope you find some solutions OP. I cannot imagine the stress this must be putting on all of you.

[BunnyBee]

Please don't throw cold water in your child's face or throw her in a cold shower. It's humiliating punishment with absolutely zero discipline (teaching) behind it. There's no connection, logical or natural, to a child's tantrum and being assaulted with cold water. :(

[scrooks]

Please don't throw cold water in your child's face or throw her in a cold shower. It's humiliating punishment with absolutely zero discipline (teaching) behind it. There's no connection, logical or natural, to a child's tantrum and being assaulted with cold water. :(
I'm not saying the cold water thing is right or wrong but the way I read it was as a suggestion to "shock" the child out of the tantrum...it's not really meant to be a punishment... Someone correct me if I am wrong....

i am sorry you are dealing with this op....it's sounds like you are on the right path with the developmental ped. Good luck!!!

[Clarity]

I'm with pp. Don't use the car. It's just not safe. Here's the mom's blog post regarding her dd who got caught in the seatbelts and nearly choked to death: http://www.sallycphotography.com/archives/2005. Like pp, it's the first thing I thought of when I read your post. I also have a dd with big emotions and huge tantrums. She's 7yo and much to big to be carried anywhere, what's worse is that she won't go willingly to her room. I have talked to her about alternative behaviors but those talks get lost in the emotion of the moment. I would also suggest ABA therapy. You can consult a professional or, if you are dedicated, learn to implement it on your own. It CAN be done...I have a df whose son is autistic and she taught herself the how to do ABA techniques for her son and they've had amazing success. I've been meaning to talk to her and get some guidance myself. Look it up, it could help!

[barkley1]

We used the garage, strapped in the stroller(to keep him safe) for several time outs when DS was going through a particularly bad phase. Your dd might be too old for that, though....he was unable to unbuckle the straps, so I knew he was safe, just screaming he head off. It's not a bad idea, IMO, you just have to make sure she's 100% safe. I hope you can find a good solution. It is SO hard not to let it spiral out of control...been there!

[MSWR0319]

OP, I forget, have you had her to the pedi to rule out any physical issue? Your posts about your DD remind me so much of DS. I totally get what you're talking about. His screaming causes so much stress in our house that we literally are all about to go nuts when it starts and doesn't stop. I finally took him to the pediatrician (expecting a referral to a therapist or something) and he discovered DS was severely constipated and also that his nasal passages were horrible looking. He was fairly sure that was part of the behavior issue. So he's on Miralax now and a nose spray. His behavior is much improved. I think we've only had one tantrum that got out of control since we started about a month ago. I still think he may have sleep apnea but am giving the nose spray a try first since the Dr. thought it would help his behavior because he would get better sleep. I'm sure you've already gone to the dr, but thought I'd throw it out there.

[BunnyBee]

I'm not saying the cold water thing is right or wrong but the way I read it was as a suggestion to "shock" the child out of the tantrum...it's not really meant to be a punishment... Someone correct me if I am wrong....

i am sorry you are dealing with this op....it's sounds like you are on the right path with the developmental ped. Good luck!!!

The child is 5, emotionally vulnerable and probably scared of her own out of control emotions. Think of a time when you've had a meltdown as an adult. If your husband had thrown a glass of cold water in your face, how would it make you feel? Do you need to be "shocked" out of having big feelings? Now, you're an adult and presumably can regulate your emotions much better than a 5 year old. It's the same as slapping her hard across the face. That would shock her too. Throwing water in a child's face or tossing the child in a shower is physical punishment. If you throw a glass of water in another adult's face, it's assault. Even if you're just trying to "shock" that person.

[ahisma]

OP - I get where you're coming from. Luckily, our 100 year old house has plaster lathe walls. I think it's a saving grace sometimes. That said, I have put my (notably older - now almost 15 years old) DD in timeout on the front porch. I think it started when she was around 9. I've even done it in the winter. Not for a specified time, and ALWAYS dressed for the weather. My theory has been that she doesn't get to disrupt the entire house just because she's angry with me. She gets once chance to calmly take some space in her room. If she screams and carries on - off to the front porch. She's never made a peep out there, she'd be mortified to be seen acting like that in public.

I guess my point is that, even though I'm not sold on the car / garage idea, I can see where you're coming from. I never would have imagined putting a kid in time out on the porch 8 years ago. Now - it makes perfect sense. I hope you find a solution that works. Not the front porch at 5 yo...but something.

[squimp]

OP, that sounds so tough. My DD used to have big fits too, and I understand how tough it is. Looking back on all those years, the best thing I ever did for her was to express sympathy and try to hold her and sit with her until she stopped crying. I know it's hard, and I didn't always have time to do that, but now that she's 10, those are the moments where I handled it the best. Once she's in a temper tantrum, time outs didn't help her, especially when they are so little (under 6). I finally read "The explosive child" and I started thinking this way.

[randomkid]

DSD2 had horrible tantrums at age 5-6. She once screamed for probably 2-3 hours over a sticker - started at the skating rink (which we left), continued into the parking lot, in the car and back at home. I get where you are coming from. I would have never put her in the car in the garage because she was so out of control that I would have been afraid of her injuring herself. As it was, she would hit and scratch herself, then later ask how she got those scratches. She was so out of control, that she didn't even remember what happened. We tried many different approaches, but none seemed to work. Only once was I able to hold her and calm her down, but I wasn't there when the tantrum started, so she wasn't upset with me. That didn't work any other time.

Finally, one night I told DH that she just needed to be ignored entirely. She was sent to her room and told she could not come out until she was calm. We never told her she was in time out because punishing her when she was already upset or angry would just make it worse. We framed it in a way that gave her more control - when you can settle yourself down, you can come out. We sat in the family room with DSD1 and watched TV. DH waited until she stopped screaming, even for a second, then quickly went in her room (this took several tries because she'd stop and by the time he'd stand up she was screaming again). He finally had time to get in there while she was quiet and give her positive reinforcement. We only had to do this twice and the tantrums stopped. DH was able to talk to her about the problem while she was calm and quiet and it made a difference for her. I'm not saying this approach will necessarily work for your DD, but the point is we changed what we were doing. BTW, the tantrums continued at her mother's after they stopped for us which told me that the adult reaction is what determined the length and extent of the tantrum. I agree that you need to seek some help in dealing with this, but I don't think her behavior is out of the ordinary. Some kids just have horrible tantrums at this age. It sounds to me that you and your DH need to find a different way of handling her in order to make the tantrums stop. I don't think calling it time out is working - probably just makes her more angry. I also think you are going to have to accept that when you deal with this, it is going to disrupt your lives. We tried going on with whatever we were doing, but it didn't work. We had to sit and dedicate time to the situation and nothing else, which meant sitting on the couch waiting for the screaming to stop. We did nothing else during that time (other than watch TV), but completely dedicated the evening to working on this problem. It was so worth it because we were just like you - dreading the tantrums and just waiting for what would set her off. Many fun outings were completely ruined by these tantrums that usually occurred over nothing major. Good luck!

[Cuckoomamma]

Is there a chance she has food allergies/sensitivities? This is classic behavior in several families I know, including ours. I can completely relate to how frustrating it is to be with a screaming child for hours and the concern over everyone else maintaining emotional equilibrium. Our older dd did this for a period of years (always tied to food) and younger dd has recently had a few episodes (again tied to food).
I echo the poster who mentioned that hugging and comforting is the way out of the tantrum. Unfortunately, many times I'm angry about the tantrum and don't let go of my emotions, which only prolongs the tantrum. I think there's a cycle of them being angry but then includes feeling bad about what they've done and afraid everyone is angry at them (which we are!) and it all just keeps on going!
Distraction has also worked with us - big noise outside - "oh my gosh, what was that?" and everyone runs and looks. While I agree that in theory you don't want the tantrums to run the household, that's exactly the point of view that works against stopping the tantrums.
Someone once told me that a child screams because they feel they aren't heard. If you can think of that during the tantrum and be kind to the child, it short circuits the tantrum. Contrary to the parental wisdom that if you give a child what they scream for, you create a screamer, I've found the opposite. My older dd is 12 and my younger is 8. Try hugging her and telling her how much you love her and see what happens. I will admit that as easy as it is to type that, I've had a tough time with it, but I do think it's the answer.

[crl]

Hugging my kid or trying to distract him during a tantrum just made him worse. Trying to distract him in particular just pissed him off more. Not saying it's not worth trying, of course it is! But if you have already tried these things and they didn't work, you aren't alone.

Catherine

[indigo99]

I read something a while back about a kid who strangled herself in the seatbelt while her mom was standing right next to the car.

That's what I thought of too. Kids like to climb around and can find dangers even when you don't think there are any. I think that someone would need to sit in the car with her, just read and ignore her, and wear headphones.

I completely understand though. DS2 had some sleep regression the past two weeks, and we've had to let him cry it out. He can stand there and scream almost two hours even when he's falling down tired, and DS1 won't sleep unless the house is completely quiet. We've all suffered.

Be sure you're going overboard with positive reinforcement. That makes a big difference with my screamers. Even for little things where they shouldn't scream anyway, if they don't then I tell them how happy I am that they aren't screaming. We've also done a lot of walking out of places lately. That made a big difference with DS1 overall.

[twowhat?]

Hugging my kid or trying to distract him during a tantrum just made him worse. Trying to distract him in particular just pissed him off more. Not saying it's not worth trying, of course it is! But if you have already tried these things and they didn't work, you aren't alone.

Catherine

I have totally tried the hugging and whispering that I love her into her ear on several occassions. And it is comical how much it DOESN'T help and makes it worse!!! ANY interaction seems to prolong the tantrum because she then adds it onto her list of woes. "I DIDN'T WANT A HUUUUUG! NOOOOOOOO!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!"

At least she slept well tonight. Once the ped's office is open I will give them a call.

[wendibird22]

Hugs! I can imagine you are equal parts concerned and annoyed. I've posted here about DD1's tantrums (she's 6). While they don't last for hours, they do turn DH and I into lunatics, especially after a long day of work, and keep DD2 from getting the attention she deserves from us. It's too bad the hugs don't work. We've recently started that with DD1 and it does short circuit the tantrum. I'll say, "DD1, I can tell that you probably want a hug really badly. It must feel horrible to be so out of control." And then I wait. It may not happen right away and I never physically initiate the hug. Eventually she does come and hug me or DH and honestly just melts into our arms. This happened yesterday for example and she did eventually hug DH and then he quietly said to her, "You can hug me as long as you need. You let go when you are done and then we'll talk about what happened." She hugged him for a few more minutes and then was ready to listen.

The other thing that has worked is a tickle war. I don't view it as rewarding her but simply interrupting the negative mindset she's in. It also helps my mindset as well. A few minutes of tickling her until she's belly laughing is enough to hit her reset button.

I hope the ped is able to assist you in finding a solution that works for you and your DH, as well as your DD.

[MSWR0319]

I have totally tried the hugging and whispering that I love her into her ear on several occassions. And it is comical how much it DOESN'T help and makes it worse!!! ANY interaction seems to prolong the tantrum because she then adds it onto her list of woes. "I DIDN'T WANT A HUUUUUG! NOOOOOOOO!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!"

At least she slept well tonight. Once the ped's office is open I will give them a call.

It doesn't work for us either. Just ticks him off even more and the screaming gets louder (if that's possible) and longer and he gets more out of control.

[squimp]

I have totally tried the hugging and whispering that I love her into her ear on several occassions. And it is comical how much it DOESN'T help and makes it worse!!! ANY interaction seems to prolong the tantrum because she then adds it onto her list of woes. "I DIDN'T WANT A HUUUUUG! NOOOOOOOO!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!"

At least she slept well tonight. Once the ped's office is open I will give them a call.

No my DD did not want me to hug her! She didn't want me anywhere near her! But time outs and leaving her in her room did not help our tantrums either. Sitting nearby until she calmed down and saying these words "wow, you are so angry" helped immensely. I would repeat "you are really angry that you cannot x, y, z, or that mom did y". It validated her feelings and kept her from having to tantrum to show how she felt. I ignored her many times as well once she was in tantrum mode, but it did help to validate her feelings and it would usually shorten the pain.

[chottumommy]

It doesn't work for us either. Just ticks him off even more and the screaming gets louder (if that's possible) and longer and he gets more out of control.

This would definitely set off my tantruming 4 year and would set me off too if ever I was in an uncontrollable tantrum stage. It almost trivializes their emotions. It works after they calm down a little bit where they get over their anger stage and are in the hurting stage.

My son was a major tantrum thrower (he was so bad that when my SIL, who was pregnant with her second one, visited us and saw his tantrums first hand she had nightmares that her second one would turn out to be like DS1. I have put him in the garage for timeouts (a few times) but always strapped a little loosely in the carseat with me in the front seat. During the day I have also given him a shower (warm not cold water) and as soon as the shower starts he calms down and in the good way not where he thinks he is being punished.

He is much better now at almost 5 and goes to his room by himself and lays down on the bed to calm down. He still screams but calms down much faster and always comes down for a hug.

Huge hugs to you OP.

[twowhat?]

OK, got in touch with ped who said "definitely" need to see a child psychologist and gave a recommendation so we will start there. I found the psychologist's web site and his philosophy on issues with children is that the parent is the key point of intervention, which is in line with my thoughts as well (can't change DD2 but need to change how we approach dealing with her). Hopefully we will get somewhere!

[crl]

OK, got in touch with ped who said "definitely" need to see a child psychologist and gave a recommendation so we will start there. I found the psychologist's web site and his philosophy on issues with children is that the parent is the key point of intervention, which is in line with my thoughts as well (can't change DD2 but need to change how we approach dealing with her). Hopefully we will get somewhere!


Glad you have a starting point! Good luck!

Catherine

[OKKiddo]

OK, got in touch with ped who said "definitely" need to see a child psychologist and gave a recommendation so we will start there. I found the psychologist's web site and his philosophy on issues with children is that the parent is the key point of intervention, which is in line with my thoughts as well (can't change DD2 but need to change how we approach dealing with her). Hopefully we will get somewhere!

I'm really glad that you have help coming soon. I've been there, and yes over a bandaid and the tantrum lasted about 2 hours (he was 3). I am going to say something that seems to be unpopular but that's because I've been in the trenches myself and keeping everyone safe (yourself and your child) is the most important. Sometimes you can't make them happy, but you can preserve everyone's sanity while keeping your child safe and with some specific precautions I think you could make the car a viable place to intervene. 1) a 5 point harness type car seat and strapped in snugly, 2) lights on and maybe even some calming classical music (or ocean noises) 3) parent present in garage within sight of child, 4) periodically opening the door to reassure and attempt to calm your daughter during the tantrum.

I had to tightly squeeze my son when he would have his tantrums and sing "you are my sunshine" and "shhh'ing" him. Sometimes it would work to calm him down (I considered this working if the tantrum lasted under 2 hours or extremely successful if it lasted less than 1 hour). My son used to self harm (banging his head and sometimes escalate to scratching himself) so I couldn't just put him somewhere and let him get it out. There were times when my husband was deployed that I felt myself losing my grip and it was hard so I can totally understand your frantic need to find some way to restore peace or just a way to get through the next "big one". I will never forget my wonderful neighbors who could hear him and would know when I needed help. They would come over with a big hug and no judgement and even if it was just hugging me and wiping my tears while I was squeezing him and rocking, it was still what helped me hang on. I'm sure they would have been by my side with those hugs and tissues again if I felt that it was best for he and I to lock him into a safe, monitored environment to keep my grip on sanity. They would have helped by holding him too but it just seemed to make him escalate again. :( But here we are and he's nearly 7 and those tantrums are a thing of the past and etched in my memory (things like that don't fade, they scar and I'm thankful that he'll at least have a memory of a mommy who loved him enough to always try). He's a totally different child now and therapy, intervention, loving family/friends/neighbors and lots of hard work for all of us has been the key. Big hugs and prayers for you and your family.

ETA: it wasn't until he was 5 that we were able to use bandaids with him without a tantrum. For him bandaids were a bulls eye on his owie that only served to remind him that he was hurt.

[123LuckyMom]

I'm glad help in within sight! Hugs to you!

[pastrygirl]

I read the cold water suggestion as similar to the Dog Whisperer -- where the dog is so nuts and needs something to just shock him back into reality, like a quick jab. I don't know that I've done cold water, but I'm sure I've used techniques that sound bad just to shock the kid out of a hysterical tantrum. I have a crier (4yo), but thankfully he goes to his room and sobs into his pillow when he's having a tantrum -- he knows the drill now. I don't want to hear his crying, his brother doesn't want to hear it, etc. We have a mostly open houseplan but crying in his bed muffles most of the sound. Sometimes he make a lot of noise up there thumping around but I don't check on him. It's not nearly as bad as your situation sounds OP.

I have home ABA for my older son with autism and behavior issues, but he doesn't have a problem with screaming/crying. We just started it and I'm praying to God that it helps, because I'm at my wits' end with him.

[BunnyBee]

Cesar Milan is widely despised as a dangerous quack by real dog behaviorists and trainers. Even if he weren't, there are techniques we use with pets that are not appropriate for humans. I can't crate my toddler if I go to the grocery store.

My grandmother with Alzheimer's keeps having hysterical spells. Maybe my mom should try throwing cold water in her face so she doesn't have to listen to her.




OP, yay for a name and a potential good fit. Fingers crossed!

[randomkid]

OK, got in touch with ped who said "definitely" need to see a child psychologist and gave a recommendation so we will start there. I found the psychologist's web site and his philosophy on issues with children is that the parent is the key point of intervention, which is in line with my thoughts as well (can't change DD2 but need to change how we approach dealing with her). Hopefully we will get somewhere!

I'm glad you have a place to go. I had suggested a psychologist for DSD2 to DH, but we ended up not needing to do it. We had tried many different things and something finally worked. If it hadn't, I'm pretty sure we would have had to seek professional help. I believe an out of control tantrum at this age is not only out of control emotions, but attention seeking behavior - not just for attention's sake, but there is something more going on with the child. It could be something major or something simple. Tantrums feed off of attention, negative or positive. I remember DH telling the girls "You don't have to do that to get our attention". This was usually in response to some negative behavior, tantrum or otherwise. He would always tell them this only after they had calmed down and it seemed to work because a lot of the issues we were having with them resolved over time.

We did feel a lot of DSD's tantrums had to do with DH's divorce, the awful things their mother said to them about their Dad, me coming into the picture, etc. Her tantrums started shortly after DH got his own apartment (had been living with various friends prior to that). Also, if a child is so out of control to tantrum for 2 or 3 hours, I don't think a distraction will be very effective. It may work for some kids, but no way that would have worked with DSD2 because she was just too far gone once she was in full blown tantrum mode. It's obvious from the posts in this thread that different approaches work for different kids. I hope you find your solution - and sooner rather than later!

Don't be too concerned that there is something seriously wrong with your DD that she tantrums like this. I've read it on here several times and actually just spoke to a mom of a first grader this morning who told me her 6yo DD screamed for an hour a couple of nights ago because she wanted to go to somewhere a friend had been and mom said no. Everyone thinks 2 year olds are the kings and queens of tantrums, but I have come to believe that they are just princes and princesses while the 4-6 year olds are the kings and queens!

[petesgirl]

Cesar Milan is widely despised as a dangerous quack by real dog behaviorists and trainers. Even if he weren't, there are techniques we use with pets that are not appropriate for humans. I can't crate my toddler if I go to the grocery store.

My grandmother with Alzheimer's keeps having hysterical spells. Maybe my mom should try throwing cold water in her face so she doesn't have to listen to her.




OP, yay for a name and a potential good fit. Fingers crossed!

Seriously? You are comparing someone with Alzheimer’s to a child who has tantrums??
Just for the record, I totally understand what OP is going through. Not with tantrums but because I had an infant who spent the majority of his childhood screaming and crying. Yes, we took him to several Drs. and specialists but nobody could find anything wrong with him. I'm ashamed to say that I do understand how child abuse could happen. I know I'm the adult but I do have limits and a breaking point.
I say hats off to OP and her DH for recognizing they are at their limits and brainstorming safe options for how to prevent them from breaking next time they hit a tantrum.

[BunnyBee]

Seriously? You are comparing someone with Alzheimer’s to a child who has tantrums??
Just for the record, I totally understand what OP is going through. Not with tantrums but because I had an infant who spent the majority of his childhood screaming and crying. Yes, we took him to several Drs. and specialists but nobody could find anything wrong with him. I'm ashamed to say that I do understand how child abuse could happen. I know I'm the adult but I do have limits and a breaking point.
I say hats off to OP and her DH for recognizing they are at their limits and brainstorming safe options for how to prevent them from breaking next time they hit a tantrum.

OP never said she was throwing cold water on her child. It was suggested to her in this thread. OP is seeking professional assistance for a challenging situation. And OP has said she and her husband are against spanking, which to me means corporal punishment. Throwing water in a child's face is corporal punishment.

And yes, I am comparing a small child with zero power completely at the mercy of his/her parents to an adult with Alzheimer's. Both are vulnerable members of society. Both subject to abuse by their caretakers. If the technique would be abusive to an adult, it shouldn't be used on a child.

[Indianamom2]

I'm glad you have an appt. with the Dev. Pedi. It's an excellent resource. I also really like the idea of keeping a food log and seeing if there could be any correlation. I hadn't thought about a food sensitivity, but it's a possibility for sure.

[maestramommy]

We used to do it (garage I mean, not the car), but then DD2 was starting to mess with things. Now we use the screen porch/3 season room. Nothing to break. It's all their stuff. She made a mess last time and I made her clean it up herself.

[doberbrat]

I say hats off to OP and her DH for recognizing they are at their limits and brainstorming safe options for how to prevent them from breaking next time they hit a tantrum.

Amen! And, one thing I've learned from the BBB is to never say 'I'd Never Ever....' All families/situations/dynamics are different. Even if you've had a similar situation, it hasn't been EXACTLY the same so the exact thing that works for one might not work for everyone.

Personally, I like threads like this, where people toss out ideas and others can point out the negatives potentially associated with an idea. Then, people can make their own judgement regarding whether a particular idea might suit them.

And I'm sending out sincere hugs to all who are dealing with similar situations.