As long as we're talking education policy...

[anonomom]

There's a controversy brewing my school system about grading standards for high school students. Specifically, it has been proposed that teachers be banned from giving zero grades for missed work and that kids be allowed to re-take tests if they don't like the grade and want to try to raise it. Proponents of the plan believe that giving a kid even one zero can permanently and irreparably harm their grade and result in a grade that isn't related to their comprehension of the material. They propose instead that HS report cards include two grades -- an academic one measuring mastery of the material and a "behavior" one reflecting things like homework completion, class participation, etc. Opponents think that the proposed system rewards kids who choose not to do their work, and make the point that in the "real world," you can't just blow by deadlines and expect that there be no consequences.

I know I have a knee-jerk reaction to the proposal (it sounds crazy to me to say kids cannot be penalized for failing to complete their work), but I don't have kids in high school. And usually on such issues, my perspective is limited to the little I know. So I'm very curious to get the perspectives of others who may have more experience and/or a different viewpoint.

[fedoragirl]

This was proposed in our school district for all students. It backfired when the parents opposed it. LOL The district was not expecting a revolt from that quarter and didn't know how to respond.
I believe there should be a compromise. Students can be given a chance to makeup missed work by a certain deadline but not till the end of the quarter or semester. Unfortunately, what I or other teachers think is of no relevance as we were/are pretty much told what to do regarding everything. My colleagues and I always joked about why they hired professionals to teach something they might know something about when all they do is tell us what material we can teach and how to teach it. Then, they also instruct us on how to test it and grade it. Can you tell I am not returning to public school teaching anytime soon?

[inmypjs]

This sounds like Standards-Based Grading. Our public school district has done it up through middle school. A nearby district is trying to do it through high school and is being met with a lot of parent resistance.

Personally, I'm not AS opposed to using the number standard in place of letter grades as I am to all of the other things that you mentioned that go along with it. Our middle school has implemented this, and the lowest grade kids can get is a 60. This is what they get if they don't turn in the assignment at all. And yes, they are allowed to redo any assignment or retake any test at any point in time until the last day of school. I may be old school, but I prefer a more traditional approach that holds kids accountable to deadlines. And I don't mind if there is some sort of test retake policy, but that is way to liberal IMO. I believe there is benefit to using a test to capture what a student knows at any given time. The parents at the nearby high school are opposed because they say the tool used to convert all of these number grades to letter grades for a GPA is inadequate and is not what colleges want to see on a transcript.

I also don't have students in a school that is doing standards-based grading, however I have quite a few friends that do. Most do not like it and several have transferred districts as a result.

[lizzywednesday]

We were always told, starting in Middle School, that our High School teachers wouldn't let us do this.

In High School, we were told that Professors didn't want to hear this.

The reality of the situation was that some teachers & prof's were more susceptible to whining and/or negotiation than others, so you could, hypothetically, get away with not doing any of the work if you got one. I had a TA allow me to complete a project for a Fall semester class during Senior week the following Spring, which I considered a very generous allowance, but I had no expectations of this going in. As far as I was concerned, I'd done zero work and earned a zero - she'd given me an "Incomplete" so my GPA wasn't calculated properly ... and I needed a minimum to stay in school AND retain financial aid.

I don't like it as a blanket policy because I feel like it sets up a poor precedent - in the business world, "do-overs" can be VERY costly! I am in publishing, for example, and have had entire print runs trashed because an editor or author found a typo or a misplaced punctuation mark in an unbound product ... costing the company THOUSANDS of dollars to re-print the run and bind the books.

There are very few situations in which a "do over" or an omission will not have an impact on one's overall performance rating.

[NCGrandma]

There's a controversy brewing my school system about grading standards for high school students. Specifically, it has been proposed that teachers be banned from giving zero grades for missed work and that kids be allowed to re-take tests if they don't like the grade and want to try to raise it.

If I'm remembering correctly which school system you're in ... at least this year there supposedly won't be yet another major reassignment, with all the accompanying controversy. Almost seems like the school board doesn't know how to have a fairly smooth year...


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[gymnbomb]

Things like this must be why my college students think deadlines and class policies don't matter. They really do have to grow up and take responsibility for themselves eventually -- now that they aren't learning to do so in high school, I have to be the bad guy. It eats up a considerable amount of my time at least once a semester.

[Mopey]

I have absolutely no qualifications/btdt to chime in but my knee-jerk answer is that is ridiculous! We are already dealing with certain generations feeling entitled and coddled and it doesn't particularly sound like this policy would help alleviate those problems in the younger generations. A make-up test for valid reasons, sure. But retaking it any time? And basically being allowed to blow off deadlines, responsibilities and results sounds like a recipe for disaster. What would happen if I just decided that wedding cake didn't have to be there on time? Or that I could just re-do it if I didn't like the initial result? Kind of bonkers IMHO.

[Globetrotter]

I'm okay with retaking tests for partial credit, only because it forces them to learn the material they didn't get the first time. However, there should be only one opportunity to do it and partial credit, so no A pluses for retakes!

My kids have VERY strict deadlines. While it gets to be a bit much at times and creates stress, I wouldn't want it to be too lax for sure! One of dd's HS teachers allows late work ONCE only but you automatically drop one or two grades. That way at least it's not a zero but there is a huge incentive to turn it in on time. I think that's fair. However, if you do it again it's a zero. She gave her friend a late grade because the mom forgot to sign something (it was a family hw project that required parental signatures - just one part of the assignment) so she turned it in late for a lower grade. I find the teachers are pretty unforgiving!

[inmypjs]

Here is an article that summarizes the pros/cons of the Standards Based Grading system:
http://readingsolutionsblog.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/pros-and-cons-of-standards-based-grading/
I am just assuming this is what the OP's district is doing, since the no homework deadlines and endless test retaking is part of this system. OP, are they doing the 1-4 standards like I am assuming?

[georgiegirl]

Our district has standards grading through 8th grade.

[anonomom]

Here is an article that summarizes the pros/cons of the Standards Based Grading system:
http://readingsolutionsblog.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/pros-and-cons-of-standards-based-grading/
I am just assuming this is what the OP's district is doing, since the no homework deadlines and endless test retaking is part of this system. OP, are they doing the 1-4 standards like I am assuming?

Not as far as I know. I just read one article in the local paper about the issue and there was no mention of it bring standards-based. The main concern of those who want the new policy is that giving a zero for missed work creates a hole in the kid's average from which it is difficult or impossible to recover. I'll link the article tomorrow morning.

NCGrandma, I am very happy that there's no reassignment this year! It means that DD2 is guaranteed a spot in DD1's school, and the "stay where you start" policy means both girls will stay there. That's a huge relief.

[KpbS]

I have absolutely no qualifications/btdt to chime in but my knee-jerk answer is that is ridiculous! We are already dealing with certain generations feeling entitled and coddled and it doesn't particularly sound like this policy would help alleviate those problems in the younger generations. A make-up test for valid reasons, sure. But retaking it any time? And basically being allowed to blow off deadlines, responsibilities and results sounds like a recipe for disaster. What would happen if I just decided that wedding cake didn't have to be there on time? Or that I could just re-do it if I didn't like the initial result? Kind of bonkers IMHO.

:yeahthat:
Ridiculous. I think you should be allowed to have a make-up test if you miss the test the first time it is given. Aside from that, no do-overs. Grades are based on performance, just like real life bonuses, merit pay, etc.

[ladysoapmaker]

As a parent of a Senior in high school and a middle schooler, both of whom slack as often as they can and have benefited from having tough teachers with a "you don't turn it in, you get a zero for it" policy, I think that policy of no zeros and being able to turn it in for a grade stinks and will be a disservice to the kids.

1. it doesn't teach responsibility and meeting deadlines
2. it means the kids who have learned to skate by with doing the absolute minimum required will get that reinforced
3. it will make it harder for them when dealing with the "real world"

Jen

[hellokitty]

What? My knee-jerk reaction to the OP's post is that is a load of BS. How are those kids expected to function in college, if they are coddled for not having turned in work in high school? IDK, I could understand grading that way for elementary school, but for high school? No. IMO, they'd be doing the kids a major disservice by keeping them sheltered in some sort of lalaland, not the real world.

[wellyes]

I'm guessing the idea is, it's more important that the kids learn the material than learn to follow rules. I get that.
But there should be some sort of penalty for missing deadlines or failing to do well on a paper or test on the first attempt.
Or in other words, an incentive to actually try without thinking "eh, I'll learn that when I feel like it, not when the teacher says".

[egoldber]

Our district just moved to this for grades K-6, but grades 7+ still have traditional grading.

Honestly, I don't think it's terrible. There is so much work for them to juggle. Things get missed. A zero for one missed homework CAN screw with a child's entire grade and I don't really think that is fair either.

As for the real world, well, things DO get missed. Deadlines get pushed back or re-evaluated. Things are late. I don't get a "zero" on my performance evaluation if it takes me a couple extra days to get something done. If my plate at work is overloaded I can tell my boss that and things get adjusted. There are occasional hard deadlines, but in general I think the fishbowl of college and HS is not that accurate a reflection of most of the real world.

ETA; My MSer can turn in late homework for a reduced grade. She can re-take a test one time if she got below a B to get additional credit.

And remember my story in the BP about the teacher who uploaded the homework assignment late and in the wrong place? Is it really fair for a student to get a zero on an assignment for that? IME the classes students struggle with getting homework done on time are the classes where the teachers are disorganized themselves.

[AnnieW625]

As someone who studied their ass off for certain classes and still had a hard time with the subject, but was an overall great student (I never not did homework, never skipped class, went to the tutoring workshop some weeks two nights a week, and was never in the principal's office, never got a GPA lower than a 3.17, etc.) I don't mind the retaking a test thing if the teacher is agreeable to it.

I don't think every person who gets a grade lower than a C is a delinquent either, (but I am sure that could be a common thought here in BBB land). I think I was allowed one or two re tests in algebra my sophomore year and I went from failing to a C, and I believe in both cases having me retake the test was the teacher's idea.

I only ever failed one class in high school, algebra 2, and I only ever failed one paper in college. I had no chance to get a better grade in algebra 2 (I took that my senior yr. of high school), and I can't remember if I had a chance to redo the paper in college or not; I think I did because a crazy amount of people failed the paper and the professor was irritated about that, but the students were irritated that the paper was graded by TAs and not the professor (that was common knowledge w/this professor).

[MelissaTC]

There are a lot of kids in the district without access to the resources needed to complete some assignments. My DS spends a ton of time on the computer to complete assignments. There are no textbooks. Due to budget cuts, media center hours are limited. I'm a media center volunteer and they are hurting. There aren't enough copies of books for the kids that really need them.

I don't know how much of a help or not this move would be, but there is a great inequity in our district. I hope that this starts a discussion so that all kids can be successful.

[anonomom]

There are a lot of kids in the district without access to the resources needed to complete some assignments. My DS spends a ton of time on the computer to complete assignments. There are no textbooks. Due to budget cuts, media center hours are limited. I'm a media center volunteer and they are hurting. There aren't enough copies of books for the kids that really need them.

I don't know how much of a help or not this move would be, but there is a great inequity in our district. I hope that this starts a discussion so that all kids can be successful.

Hear, Hear! Though I would argue that rather than relaxing grading standards, they should focus on making sure all schools have the resources they need. The gross inequality in our school system is something that bothers me a lot. It seems such a vicious cycle, because the people with the most resources to begin with have the means to demand what they need/want, where those who start off disadvantaged just seem to get ignored.

[Globetrotter]

Both my kids are self-driven perfectionists, so I look at this issue from a different perspective. They are already paranoid about missing a deadline and have NEVER gotten a zero on anything. I do think slacker kids need rigid guidelines.

[AnnieW625]

Both my kids are self-driven perfectionists, so I look at this issue from a different perspective. They are already paranoid about missing a deadline and have NEVER gotten a zero on anything. I do think slacker kids need rigid guidelines.

This was me as a student, not so much my brother and sister who would forget about a deadline until the last minute, but still complete the work and still get an A. (super irritating in my book!)

[egoldber]

They are already paranoid about missing a deadline and have NEVER gotten a zero on anything. I do think slacker kids need rigid guidelines.

I know you don't mean it this way, but the perception that a kid who misses an occasional deadline = slacker really bothers me. Life happens. People aren't perfect. Sometimes you forget an assignment or misremember a due date.

I think that a kid who misses every deadline and re-takes every test is going to be the exception and not the rule.

[BabyBearsMom]

I don't have high school kids, and when I was a high school kid I was a very driven perfectionist, so this policy would not have impacted me. But, I think it sounds ridiculous. Obviously if you miss a test for a good reason, you should get the opportunity to retake the test. In 8th grade, I had to miss a few weeks of school because had to have knee surgery to remove a benign bone tumor. My teachers let me do make up school work and even take a few tests from home under the my mother's supervision. My mother took great pains to coordinate my absense with my teachers. Or if you have a great kid who is always very consciencious who forgets to do one assignment, I can see giving a make up opportunity. However, I think this policy sounds like it will allow kids to think that all deadlines are negotiable and that they can do it on their own terms. And the argument that it is more important that they learn the content doesn't ring true to me. I think the most important thing you do in school is learn how to learn and how to think. I remember very few details of what I learned in high school. I couldn't tell you dates when historical events happened, I probably couldn't do most of the advanced math that I did, and I know I don't remember anything from science class (what the heck is RNA again?). But what I do remember is how to perform research on a topic, a love of literature, a love of history, how to study, how to socialize with my peers, how to be responsible for my assigned tasks. To me, that is the point of education.

[AnnieW625]

I know you don't mean it this way, but the perception that a kid who misses an occasional deadline = slacker really bothers me. Life happens. People aren't perfect. Sometimes you forget an assignment or misremember a due date.

I think that a kid who misses every deadline and re-takes every test is going to be the exception and not the rule.

I agree with this as well. Very well said.

[Globetrotter]

I know you don't mean it this way, but the perception that a kid who misses an occasional deadline = slacker really bothers me. Life happens. People aren't perfect. Sometimes you forget an assignment or misremember a due date.

I think that a kid who misses every deadline and re-takes every test is going to be the exception and not the rule



NO, that is absolutely not what I meant to say. Heck, my kids' personalities have created a lot of stress for our family. I wish they would lighten up!! I would define a slacker as my dd's bff, who is very gifted but will only do the bare minimum to get her A. She would totally take advantage of any leeway in the rules and deadlines if it didn't affect her grade. Now that doesn't mean she's a terrible person(!) but she's just not very organized or self motivated, and I do think it will eventually backfire for her :(

[egoldber]

I would define a slacker as my dd's bff, who is very gifted but will only do the bare minimum to get her A. She would totally take advantage of any leeway in the rules and deadlines if it didn't affect her grade.

I honestly don't understand why the first sentence implies the second. I totally fit that criteria in school. I don't think it makes me more likely to take advantage of a policy than anyone else. Just because someone is not highly driven in a particular class does not make them a slacker.

Maybe we mean slacker in different ways though. Maybe I am a slacker! In which case, I'm OK with being a slacker. :) Maybe that's my problem in this conversation LOL I don't see anything inherently wrong in making the choice to not excel in every area or class if it makes life more sane.

I can also see occasions where HS kids might choose to turn in an assignment late. Maybe they had an event the night before that was important to them and chose to hand in the assignment a day late. Or maybe they mis-estimated the amount of time needed to do something else and chose to turn in one assignment late to complete the other. Does that deserve a zero? A reduced grade, sure. But a zero? HS kids are still kids and are learning how to manage work loads and expectations.

I also find it somewhat hard to believe that the schools will allow the kids to turn in any assignment any time and take any test as many times as they want. I would like to see the actual policy. Most schools with these policies offer reduced credit for late assignments and test re-takes.

[fivi2]

I started out thinking that this was a crazy policy, but I do agree with many of egoldber's points.

I think one area where people are disagreeing is the consequences of missed deadlines as an adult. I am a lawyer. Some of my deadlines are hard and fast, and if I miss them there are no do-overs. Other deadlines are more like suggestions ;) My boss asked me to do a project this past summer, that, if I am lucky, will be done in January. She hasn't fired me for it yet.

So, I guess I think there should be a continuum. Maybe routine homework gets lumped together as one small part of the grade (like some professors do "class participation". Or at least they did when I was in school.) Regular participation - or non participation - could swing your grade up or down one level, but one or two instances of poor participation wouldn't bring down your entire average. I don't know. This is one where I can see both sides of the argument.

[petesgirl]

I started out thinking that this was a crazy policy, but I do agree with many of egoldber's points.

I think one area where people are disagreeing is the consequences of missed deadlines as an adult. I am a lawyer. Some of my deadlines are hard and fast, and if I miss them there are no do-overs. Other deadlines are more like suggestions ;) My boss asked me to do a project this past summer, that, if I am lucky, will be done in January. She hasn't fired me for it yet.

So, I guess I think there should be a continuum. Maybe routine homework gets lumped together as one small part of the grade (like some professors do "class participation". Or at least they did when I was in school.) Regular participation - or non participation - could swing your grade up or down one level, but one or two instances of poor participation wouldn't bring down your entire average. I don't know. This is one where I can see both sides of the argument.

I think this is how I am feeling about it too. I can see instances where it would be a good policy but I think it definitely needs boundaries too so that the students who truly would take advantage of the system aren't able to. For example, offer a test re-take but only for one week after the original test was given, or something similar. I don't think any student should be allowed to turn in any assignment or take any test whenever they want, even for reduced credit. That sounds like total anarchy and a PITA for the teacher to keep up with.

[petesgirl]

NO, that is absolutely not what I meant to say. Heck, my kids' personalities have created a lot of stress for our family. I wish they would lighten up!! I would define a slacker as my dd's bff, who is very gifted but will only do the bare minimum to get her A. She would totally take advantage of any leeway in the rules and deadlines if it didn't affect her grade. Now that doesn't mean she's a terrible person(!) but she's just not very organized or self motivated, and I do think it will eventually backfire for her :(
This honestly just sounds like a case of gifted, bored student. Sounds like my brother who was way ahead of his grade level and didn't do any homework /assignment because he knew he could still pass the exams with flying colors. He isn't a slacker when it really matters but he was incredibly bored in school.

[speo]

It seems like a policy like this might be hard to actually implement and a real burden for teachers. Teachers can barely accomplish what they have. Can they really deal with kids needing to take makeups whenever they feel like? Copies need to be made, time needs to be set aside to take the test, and the teacher then needs to grade it.

[maestramommy]

Do you live in MN? I seem to remember reading an article about getting rid of grades altogether and letting kids make up work to the end of the year. Sounded nutty to me. And that's not a knee jerk reaction. What teacher wants to be grading fall assignments in the spring? If a kid doesn't do work there should be a penalty, otherwise what's the point of assigning work??

[Globetrotter]

I honestly don't understand why the first sentence implies the second. I totally fit that criteria in school. I don't think it makes me more likely to take advantage of a policy than anyone else. Just because someone is not highly driven in a particular class does not make them a slacker. Maybe we mean slacker in different ways though. Maybe I am a slacker! In which case, I'm OK with being a slacker. :) Maybe that's my problem in this conversation LOL I don't see anything inherently wrong in making the choice to not excel in every area or class if it makes life more sane.

Someone else used the word slacker and I latched onto it, but maybe it's the wrong word.
Some people need to be pushed, while others are self driven.


This honestly just sounds like a case of gifted, bored student. Sounds like my brother who was way ahead of his grade level and didn't do any homework /assignment because he knew he could still pass the exams with flying colors. He isn't a slacker when it really matters but he was incredibly bored in school.

As for dd's friend, her parents lament the fact that she doesn't live up to her potential. I don't think she's bored. She's just terribly disorganized and struggles to keep up with projects and deadlines, always procrastinating and turning in shoddy work at times - she would rather be reading. She really needs structure and deadlines to help her keep on track.

I'm not against the policy altogether, as I said upthread. I actually think it's important to understand the things you missed on a test. How else do you learn from your mistakes? They probably give them one shot at it, I imagine.
In elem. school, dd had a teacher who would give you a zero if you didn't have your project on the table when the bell rang. It didn't matter that it was completed and in your backpack! That year she used to stay up until 11-12 sometimes (remember, elem. school) to avoid that zero. I'm all for sensible policies.

[egoldber]

As for dd's friend, her parents lament the fact that she doesn't live up to her potential. I don't think she's bored. She's just terribly disorganized and struggles to keep up with projects and deadlines, always procrastinating and turning in shoddy work at times - she would rather be reading. She really needs structure and deadlines to help her keep on track.

It could also be something like undiagnosed ADHD-Inattentive. These are all pretty classic signs. Many kids (especially girls) are able to compensate until MS/HS, then the new routines and having so many different teachers and classes, it all becomes too much for them to compensate for anymore.

There is also the point I was making earlier (or maybe in another thread? perhaps the differentiation thread) that kids who get used to coasting can actually be afraid to try hard. If they just throw something together, well that becomes the built in excuse for not getting a good grade. But to work hard and try really hard on a project, and then get a less than stellar grade....that's very anxiety producing. So a kid can become an anti-perfectionist as a coping technique.

I'm sure there are issues with this grading system, just as their are with any grading system. I just don't think it's a totally terrible idea like so many posters here do.

When I was Googling "standards based grading" yesterday I found this blog by a teacher. I thought it was interesting, because it addressed many of the concerns expressed here. Of course, this is one teacher's opinion.

Standards Based Grading:Mythbusters Edition (http://whatitslikeontheinside.com/2008/01/standards-based-grading-mythbusters.html)

[anonomom]

Thanks, everyone for your input. I started this thread to get different perspectives on an issue I didn't know much about, so I'm so glad you all are participating! The points y'all have raised has definitely moderated my knee-jerk reaction. I was thinking of things solely in terms of entitled kids and pushy parents (of which there are MANY in our school) and how it looked initially like just one more way to allow unmotivated kids to game the system. But it seems like there are other circumstances that make these policies much more sensible.

Here's a link to the news article that prompted me to start this thread: http://www.garnercleveland.com/2013/11/01/3331472/wake-schools-looking-at-grading.html#storylink=misearch. It doesn't specifically mention standards-based grading, but some parts of the article allude to making HS grading more similar to elementary grades, which are standards-based.

One huge remaining worry I have about moving to a standards-based system is that (at least at the elementary level) it gives very little information about how a kid is actually doing. In our school, where kids are given a 1-4 for each subject, the "3" grade encompasses a wide array of skill levels. A child could be clinging by her fingernails to an adequate grasp on the material or be just short of gifted, and will get a 3. 4s are reserved for extraordinary achievement and aren't available in all subjects (in DD's class, for example, there is no opportunity to demonstrate level 4 work in science or social studies). Several parents of new middle schoolers have mentioned to me that they thought their straight-3 kids were doing just fine until they got to middle school and realized they were barely holding on.