Navigating girl friendships- how much can I expect from DD? (Long)

[ha98ed14]

As I posted before, DD has had a hard time standing up for herself/ asserting herself on the playground. Last year (Kinder), she "was dominated" by LittleGirlHighPower, if any of you remember those posts. We were able to resolve it through the teachers and it was fine for the rest of the year. The girls moved on to find other friends, but stayed in the same girl scout troop. Since then, there have been no issues. They are still in GS together, but not regular playmates.

Fast forward to this year, and DD is having a similar issue with DFriend. The symptoms are much the same:

General anxiety over the friendship
Fear of DFriend "not being her friend" if DD does something that DFriend does not want her to do. DFriend uses the classic "If you don't do X, I won't be your friend." wording to cajole DD into her desired plans. DFriend also followed DD around the playground insisting that DD return to the game they were playing when DD chose to walk away because she didn't like the game.
Feelings of anger and frustration "after the fact" about how she handled a situation with DFriend (being mad at herself for going along with DFriend's way of doing something even when it did not feel right to DD.)


Clearly this is an issue for DD. There will always be people seeking to dominate others, and DD is *not* a leader; she wants to do what will please the people she likes. No doubt that DD has handed power over to DFriend. The fact that this is Round II of this issue has lead me to seek counseling for DD. So far, that seems to be a positive thing. DD feels positive about her relationship with Therapist and emerged from her last session with tools she was going to try.

I have focused on having playdates with other people besides DFriend to build DD's network. I have encouraged DD to expand the circle of people in the recess playgroup. Up to now, DD has played almost exclusively one-on-one with DFriend. My hope is that by expanding her network, DFriend will not be able to dominate DD because there will be more people involved, basically to "dilute" DFriend's "hold" over DD.

To that end, I have asked DD to invite more people to play with them. DD's response to me was, "Mommy, I did. I asked DFriend and she said I could ask RandomPerson to play!" I told her "You don't need DFriend's permission. Just invite RandomPerson." So you see the pattern. How much can I expect from DD (and "hold her accountable" for) not seeking DFriend's permission for everything? I want to break that hold in DD's head, the power DD has handed over to DFriend.

Another issue that has arisen is reaching out to LonerGirl. LonerGirl needs friends; she is having a hard time being accepted. We have had a couple playdates with LonerGirl and she and DD get on well; however, there is no doubt that LonerGirl struggles to play in a group because of social immaturity. I have told DD to invite LonerGirl to play in a group. How much can I expect from DD in terms of reaching out to LonerGirl and other people who are socially undesirable? Is that a reasonable expectation? Do I need to hold her accountable? There are people at school that no one wants to play with. Of course, I would like DD to befriend these girls because if the tables were flipped and DD had no friends, I would want someone to befriend DD. But I feel like DD is struggling herself to navigate these waters already.

Last question: Would you stop outside playdates with DFriend? DD and DFriend have regular "playdates" because I swap child care with DFriend's mom. On Tues, I pick up and keep DFriend for 2 hours after school and on Wed, DFriend's mom picks up and keep's DD after school. We've done this to accommodate our work schedules. I can pretty easily stop sending DD to DFriend's house. It would be much more dramatic to tell DFriend's mom that I cannot watch her. Her mom WOTH and really relies upon me and would probably have to seek out paid daycare if I pulled out. I work from home, so it would be annoying to lose that day, but I could do it. FWIW, DD loves DFriend's mom, and when the girls play at our houses after school, the domination is not as bad because there are moms present. DFriend is definitely aware of what she can get away with depending on the situation. DD is still very concrete, a "rule follower" and not nearly as sophisticated as DFriend.

WDYT? Any BTDT, words of advice?

[egoldber]

My older DD has definitely had this issue before. You are doing the right thing by expanding her circle of friends beyond this friend.

I'm not exactly certain how the playdate scenario is playing out. Are you asking your DD to coordinate a playdate with a classmate? I don't think that is reasonable. I would ask her who she would like to have a playdate with and then take over the coordination from there.

You could also have a small "party". Make it a theme: movie, smores, tea party, AG party, spa party, Rainbow Loom, whatever and invite 3-4 girls over. That might relieve some of her anxiety about who to invite.

This definitely sounds like anxiety though and you are doing the right thing by helping her build up a toolbox now for dealing with it.

[mommy111]

I think there are 2 issues here:
1) Sometimes DD will have to compromise...if friend wants to play tag and she wants to climb the structure at school, its OK for her to compromise and not feel bad about it. Its part of maintaining and fostering friendships
2) Sometimes she will have to say no...if DF wants to bother someone else or do something that DD thinks is wrong/not comfortable with. I would teach her to say 'no', to be able to play by herself, and to be able to say 'well, if you don't want to be my friend, that's OK, I am going to climb the structure'
It will all get better as they get older, honestly. I would not pull out of the playdates/sitting arrangement, better that they learn to deal and navigate than to pull them out of that situation. This is a toolbox for adulthood.

[ha98ed14]

My older DD has definitely had this issue before. You are doing the right thing by expanding her circle of friends beyond this friend.

I'm not exactly certain how the playdate scenario is playing out. Are you asking your DD to coordinate a playdate with a classmate? I don't think that is reasonable. I would ask her who she would like to have a playdate with and then take over the coordination from there.



I am definitely coordinating the playdates. Because of girl scouts, I have a fews moms I know, LonerGirl is one of them. I feel comfortable asking them. Of the two I have arranged, they have gone well. I know my OP was a novel, but Beth, WDYT about cutting off outside playdates with DFriend?

[egoldber]

I would maintain your current sitting relationship, but I wouldn't do additional playdates.

And I agree with the PP that your DD does need to be flexible, but OTOH I know exactly how this kind of scenario can go wrong. Also, is the friend ever doing what your DD wants to do? It needs to be reciprocal, although I don't think it is uncommon for there to be a "leader" in the friendship and that isn't necessarily bad as long as the leader is kind and reciprocates at least occasionally.

One thing they taught in older DD's social skills group was how to recognize when someone was really a friend and when they were actually not being a friend even if they played with you. Sort of baby steps in recognizing toxic relationships. :)

Are you only coordinating playdates with girls whose moms you know? That would seriously limit my DDs' playdate field LOL!!!

[ha98ed14]

I would maintain your current sitting relationship, but I wouldn't do additional playdates.

And I agree with the PP that your DD does need to be flexible, but OTOH I know exactly how this kind of scenario can go wrong. Also, is the friend ever doing what your DD wants to do? It needs to be reciprocal, although I don't think it is uncommon for there to be a "leader" in the friendship and that isn't necessarily bad as long as the leader is kind and reciprocates at least occasionally.



NO! That is part of the problem! DFriend never reciprocates and DD tells me that. I have NOT said, "Well, then don't play with DFriend." I said that last year with LittleGirlHighPower, and it didn't help anything, so I have tried to focus on building DD's "toolkit," as you put it.

ETA: DD has no problem being flexable... to the point where she is actually angry at herself for going along with DFriend's plans every recess.

I know it is MY weakness, but part of me would like to end my babysitting arrangement with DFriend because I am having a hard time liking having her in my home because of knowing the dynamic that is playing out between them. My problem, I know. To be clear, thus far I have been able to remain neutral towards DFriend when she is in my home. But there is no please, no thank you, just a hefty dose of entitlement... Makes it hard. I was hoping you guys would "authorize" me to pull out of our babysitting arrangement.

[egoldber]

If you think it is damaging in any way, then of course pull out. But it sounds like it's just annoying? Do the girls have a good time?

You could tell the other mom that you can't do it after, say, the first of the year because of a schedule/commitment change at your work. That gives her plenty of time to find an alternative after care arrangement.

[ha98ed14]

If you think it is damaging in any way, then of course pull out. But it sounds like it's just annoying? Do the girls have a good time?

You could tell the other mom that you can't do it after, say, the first of the year because of a schedule/commitment change at your work. That gives her plenty of time to find an alternative after care arrangement.

Yes, it's just at the annoying level right now. They do have a good time. The problems have been almost exclusively at recess. DD is keenly aware of the differences in DFriend's behavior when a mom is near v. at recess. She can articulate them to me. It's really my problem. I am having a hard time stomaching DFriend because I know how she treats DD at school, plus her "rudeness," which really isn't overt rudeness as much as 6 year old lack of manners that DD herself displays sometimes. It's my issue; I just gotta suck it up. I'll see how the counseling plays out... if it doesn't get better by the first of the year, maybe then I will back out. Thanksgiving and Winter break will be a natural distancing...

[ha98ed14]

Beth, Did you hold ODD accountable for not "giving in" to other people? Did you expect her to reach out to other people who may not have had playmates?

[egoldber]

I'm not certain what you mean by accountable?

For older DD, at that age, there was no way she had the impulse control to not be drawn to the toxic friend like a moth to a flame. The only thing that helped was maturity and separation.

I also think that expecting her to befriend the other girl is asking a lot if they are not compatible or share common interests. Having her over for a playdate could test the waters.

[fivi2]

Trying to force my (second grade) dds to befriend a child I thought needed friends has backfired on me before. My rule is that they cannot be mean to anyone, but that is it. I try to encourage certain friendships but I don't force any. And I don't hold them accountable.

[goldenpig]

Ha98ed14, I'm just curious, what do you mean by "hold her accountable"? How does that translate into practice? I have a 6 year old DD, and I have a hard time holding her accountable for anything. She does and says whatever the hell she wants, LOL! I don't know what's going on at school because DD rarely tells me anything, but when we get together with other families and DD plays with her friends, there's a lot of annoying stuff that goes on that makes me cringe. DD is always selfishly looking out for #1 and will try to manipulate the situation to get what she wants. For example, we were at the Japanese tea garden with her friend and friend's dad (the two girls did a sleepover at Cal Academy with the dads the night before). The other girl's dad bought the two girls pretty fans and instead of saying thank you, DD tried to trade with the other girl (because she wanted the pink fan instead of the black one) and when the girl said no, DD started crying and said, "But mine is broken!" after she wrenched the wood part off (the other dad noticed). Little sociopath (just kidding, but ugh!). We ended up buying her another pink one because we were in the middle of our holiday photo shoot and had to get the family photos done without her crying (though DD's eyes were red in the photo with her friend, which is kind of funny now), but we did talk with her about it after. DH is always trying to coach her on how to be more socially graceful, like saying hello back to other girls who greet her as she's walking by at school. But it just doesn't come naturally to her. I'm not super worried about it though, because she is 6, and it's genetic (both DH and I are kind of introverted), so there's only so much you can do. We do talk with her about being a good friend/sister and her school also has a socioemotional learning curriculum and they talk a lot about coping tools, which is nice.

If your DD is a follower, there's not much you can do to change her personality (we don't all have to be social leaders or extroverts!). It's good to give her tools to be able to speak up for herself when needed, but if she's not bothered by the friend, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Based on my experience watching my kids with each other and their friends, kids fight over random things all the time and the next minute they forget about it. It's all part of social learning and important to give them some space to work things out when possible. Good luck!

[BabyBearsMom]

My DDs are much younger, but I can't help but think that "holding her accountable" would probably cause more anxiety surrounding the social situation. I think that to a certain degree, this kind of behavior is very normal with kids. I distinctly remember telling friends that I wouldn't be their friend anymore if they didn't do x, and them saying the same to me. I also distinctly remember using the "I'll be your best friend" to get what I wanted and others doing that as well. I am certain that my mom did not insert herself in these interactions at all. The only thing I remember my mom saying was that I had to be nice to others and that observing bullying and not defending the bullied child was the same as bullying.

As far as being a follower, some people are followers and some people are leaders and we need to be respectively of peoples' predispositions. DH and i talk about this a lot. I am a capital E extrovert, and DD1 is most definitely introverted. I worry about her introverted behavior sometimes and DH has to remind me that this is who she is (DH is also introverted) and there is nothing wrong with being introverted. It does make her more of a follower than a leader (when she is in group, which is not always the case because her introverted self likes to be on her own/independent quite a bit) and that is okay. Not everyone needs to be a leader, and if everyone was a leader we would have a problem.

[HannaAddict]

I wouldn't cut off DFriend since your daughter enjoys playing with her even if there are issues. It seems like the issues may be amplified by how you feel, your anxieties as you mention. I would work on your daughter's tool kit but try to relax a little and realize they are only six and all of this is normal. Some kids are loud, some quiet, some dominant, some more passive and it doesn't mean they have character flaws or are going to have the same roles forever. I have a child who is wildly attracted to a kid who is not my favorite, it isn't always positive but the good outweighs the bad, and some of what I don't like is me transferring my experiences with that personality type onto this kid. If there was something really mean or awful happening, then I'd work in building distance but all of what you describe is within the normal bounds of kid friendship, even if as adults we don't like it. And some of it is how your child deals with it, it is not just with this person, so I wouldn't cut her off. Hope this makes sense.

[westwoodmom04]

I think its fine to consider ending the babysitting arrangement, with plenty of notice for your friend of course. I can't help but think your dislike for the child will affect the care you give her, even with your best efforts to supress your feeling. Might be better all around for your dd to spend less time with her.

[ha98ed14]

I think its fine to consider ending the babysitting arrangement, with plenty of notice for your friend of course. I can't help but think your dislike for the child will affect the care you give her, even with your best efforts to supress your feeling. Might be better all around for your dd to spend less time with her.

I've been really careful about this. My feelings have only surfaced in the last week or two. Fortunately all I really say to her is, "C'mon DFriend, let's get in the car..." "DFriend, would you like a snack?" offering her the same options as DD... "DFriend, please remember we put away one toy before getting out another." She loves to pull out all of DD's toys and expect DD to put them away herself. And lastly, "DFriend, your mom is here..." Our contact is minimal, because she and DD just play for the full 2 hours.

[ha98ed14]

My DDs are much younger, but I can't help but think that "holding her accountable" would probably cause more anxiety surrounding the social situation. I think that to a certain degree, this kind of behavior is very normal with kids. I distinctly remember telling friends that I wouldn't be their friend anymore if they didn't do x, and them saying the same to me. I also distinctly remember using the "I'll be your best friend" to get what I wanted and others doing that as well. I am certain that my mom did not insert herself in these interactions at all. The only thing I remember my mom saying was that I had to be nice to others and that observing bullying and not defending the bullied child was the same as bullying.

As far as being a follower, some people are followers and some people are leaders and we need to be respectively of peoples' predispositions. DH and i talk about this a lot. I am a capital E extrovert, and DD1 is most definitely introverted. I worry about her introverted behavior sometimes and DH has to remind me that this is who she is (DH is also introverted) and there is nothing wrong with being introverted. It does make her more of a follower than a leader (when she is in group, which is not always the case because her introverted self likes to be on her own/independent quite a bit) and that is okay. Not everyone needs to be a leader, and if everyone was a leader we would have a problem.

Thanks for your perspective. I'm definitely not trying to turn DD into a leader. I just need to built her skills to be able to handle the kids with more dominant, natural leader personalities. One part of that is going to counseling-- DD is having a lot of anxiety, which does make me anxious because I see how negatively it impacts her: not sleeping, saying she does not want to go to school. Those are big red flags IMO. The other part is trying to expand her social network beyond DFriend by scheduling play dates with people other than DFriend. So far, that has been going well.

The bolded is really what I want to know about holding DD accountable. Do I need to make sure she is defending the "bullied" child? So far, I would describe DD as unable to voice her own feelings and opinions in the face of more dominant people, but that is not bullying. There are girls who are bullied, particularly because of their weight. DD is thin and blonde and does not face this issue. (You can say what you want, but attractiveness and fashion plays a role in this where we live. Maybe because we are so close to LA (fashion) and there is a lot of emphasis/ status on wealth here (Orange County.) Do I need to make sure she defends others? She is having a hard time already standing up for HERSELF, I feel like it is unfair to insist she defend others. Although I agree, she must not make fun of others.

[ha98ed14]

Trying to force my (second grade) dds to befriend a child I thought needed friends has backfired on me before. My rule is that they cannot be mean to anyone, but that is it. I try to encourage certain friendships but I don't force any. And I don't hold them accountable.

This is the BTDT I was looking for. I'm taking a page from your book. Thank you!

[ha98ed14]

Ha98ed14, I'm just curious, what do you mean by "hold her accountable"? How does that translate into practice? I have a 6 year old DD, and I have a hard time holding her accountable for anything. She does and says whatever the hell she wants, LOL! I don't know what's going on at school because DD rarely tells me anything, but when we get together with other families and DD plays with her friends, there's a lot of annoying stuff that goes on that makes me cringe. DD is always selfishly looking out for #1 and will try to manipulate the situation to get what she wants. For example, we were at the Japanese tea garden with her friend and friend's dad (the two girls did a sleepover at Cal Academy with the dads the night before). The other girl's dad bought the two girls pretty fans and instead of saying thank you, DD tried to trade with the other girl (because she wanted the pink fan instead of the black one) and when the girl said no, DD started crying and said, "But mine is broken!" after she wrenched the wood part off (the other dad noticed). Little sociopath (just kidding, but ugh!). We ended up buying her another pink one because we were in the middle of our holiday photo shoot and had to get the family photos done without her crying (though DD's eyes were red in the photo with her friend, which is kind of funny now), but we did talk with her about it after. DH is always trying to coach her on how to be more socially graceful, like saying hello back to other girls who greet her as she's walking by at school. But it just doesn't come naturally to her. I'm not super worried about it though, because she is 6, and it's genetic (both DH and I are kind of introverted), so there's only so much you can do. We do talk with her about being a good friend/sister and her school also has a socioemotional learning curriculum and they talk a lot about coping tools, which is nice.

If your DD is a follower, there's not much you can do to change her personality (we don't all have to be social leaders or extroverts!). It's good to give her tools to be able to speak up for herself when needed, but if she's not bothered by the friend, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Based on my experience watching my kids with each other and their friends, kids fight over random things all the time and the next minute they forget about it. It's all part of social learning and important to give them some space to work things out when possible. Good luck!

I hope it doesn't come off as trying to control or change DD's personality. I'm looking to build her toolkit. Perhaps the behavior you describe over exchange with her friend about the fan and "looking out for #1" is normal, but I would find it completely unacceptable, normal or not. I do not mean to criticize your parenting. There are many ways to handle situations, but the last thing I would have done is buy DD the fan she wanted. I would have told her she could be grateful for what she did have or have no fan. If she protested, I take the fan and we go home. Maybe I am mean, but we come down hard on being ungrateful when someone who owes you nothing (DD's friend's father) extends a kindness. With us, her parents, ingratitude is understandable; we give her her "needs" without expecting gratitude, so it is natural she feels like she can get her "wants" as well.

Anyway, I use that as an example of behavior being "normal," but not being "acceptable" to me. My question about accountability would mean to insist my DD defend the bullied child in the same way I insist on gratitude. I have not done it, but I could see a consequence being to take away a playdate with DFriend because DD "went along" with DFriend because she did not defend the child that DFriend was ostracizing. Based on what DD tells me (in processing her anxiety), I feel like I have a decent picture of the exchange and could hold her accountable.

ETA: From other posts, I've gleaned that holding her accountable to defend others on-the-spot is not age appropriate, so I will let it go and not bring up to DD. I'll suggest telling a teacher instead if needed.

[TxCat]

Thanks for your perspective. I'm definitely not trying to turn DD into a leader. I just need to built her skills to be able to handle the kids with more dominant, natural leader personalities. One part of that is going to counseling-- DD is having a lot of anxiety, which does make me anxious because I see how negatively it impacts her: not sleeping, saying she does not want to go to school. Those are big red flags IMO. The other part is trying to expand her social network beyond DFriend by scheduling play dates with people other than DFriend. So far, that has been going well.

The bolded is really what I want to know about holding DD accountable. Do I need to make sure she is defending the "bullied" child? So far, I would describe DD as unable to voice her own feelings and opinions in the face of more dominant people, but that is not bullying. There are girls who are bullied, particularly because of their weight. DD is thin and blonde and does not face this issue. (You can say what you want, but attractiveness and fashion plays a role in this where we live. Maybe because we are so close to LA (fashion) and there is a lot of emphasis/ status on wealth here (Orange County.) Do I need to make sure she defends others? She is having a hard time already standing up for HERSELF, I feel like it is unfair to insist she defend others. Although I agree, she must not make fun of others.

With regard to building your DD's skill set... I think that comes naturally with time and experience. Social learning and maturity is a big part of the elementary and middle school experience, IMO. As long as your DD isn't becoming bullied or ostracized by multiple kids at school, I think you have to accept that there will be social conflicts and discomforts throughout the years, and she will probably end up stronger by negotiating them on her own terms and in her own way.

As for the "accountability" I agree with some PPs that I think it would be hard to expect total accountability at this age. Six is pretty young, maturity-wise. I think the most you can demand is that they don't make fun of other children/aren't purposely mean to other children. I think encouraging them to not stand by silently if they see bullying is important, but it might be more age-appropriate that they tell a teacher or parent or other authority figure about it, rather than expect them to stand up to the bully on the bullied child's behalf. Some kids, especially those that are more naturally self-confident, can do that, but I wouldn't expect it from most kids at that age.

Finally, while I understand your impulse that your DD make an effort to befriend the kids who stand out as "loners" in the class, I wouldn't push the issue too hard. Encourage her to be nice to everyone, and that it's good to include new friends, but I wouldn't keep pushing playdates to make those other friendships happen.

[ha98ed14]

As for the "accountability" I agree with some PPs that I think it would be hard to expect total accountability at this age. Six is pretty young, maturity-wise. I think the most you can demand is that they don't make fun of other children/aren't purposely mean to other children. I think encouraging them to not stand by silently if they see bullying is important, but it might be more age-appropriate that they tell a teacher or parent or other authority figure about it, rather than expect them to stand up to the bully on the bullied child's behalf. Some kids, especially those that are more naturally self-confident, can do that, but I wouldn't expect it from most kids at that age.

Finally, while I understand your impulse that your DD make an effort to befriend the kids who stand out as "loners" in the class, I wouldn't push the issue too hard. Encourage her to be nice to everyone, and that it's good to include new friends, but I wouldn't keep pushing playdates to make those other friendships happen.

Thanks for this opinion. This is the feedback I was looking for. I did not know if it was reasonable to expect DD to defend others on-the-spot. If not saying mean things is what is age appropriate, then I will go with that, and encourage DD to tell the teacher if others are being ostracized.

[rin]

I wonder about framing the issue as "defending herself" from kids who are trying to "dominate" her. To me, that way of talking about the dynamic is already framing your DD as a victim of other aggressive kids. To me, that kind of puts the focus on the "bad" "aggressive kids", but doesn't do much to improve your DD's understanding of how to navigate social situations. There are always going to be people who naturally tend to try to organize others, and your DD will presumably encounter this same dynamic again and again throughout her life; IMO eliminating the playdates with DFriend isn't going to address the underlying issue, and could kind of give the message of "running away" from the problem. Being a natural follower is fine, but it's important to make sure that you're still able to hold onto your own values and priorities. Of course, if YOU don't want to swap childcare that's totally fine and you should feel free to end it, but I wouldn't end it just because your DD is having a hard time sticking up for herself. To me, this seems like the perfect opportunity for her to work on a social issue that she's having trouble with.

[ha98ed14]

I wonder about framing the issue as "defending herself" from kids who are trying to "dominate" her. To me, that way of talking about the dynamic is already framing your DD as a victim of other aggressive kids. To me, that kind of puts the focus on the "bad" "aggressive kids", but doesn't do much to improve your DD's understanding of how to navigate social situations. There are always going to be people who naturally tend to try to organize others, and your DD will presumably encounter this same dynamic again and again throughout her life; IMO eliminating the playdates with DFriend isn't going to address the underlying issue, and could kind of give the message of "running away" from the problem. Being a natural follower is fine, but it's important to make sure that you're still able to hold onto your own values and priorities. Of course, if YOU don't want to swap childcare that's totally fine and you should feel free to end it, but I wouldn't end it just because your DD is having a hard time sticking up for herself. To me, this seems like the perfect opportunity for her to work on a social issue that she's having trouble with.

I agree with everything you've said, which is why I've sought counseling to build DD's skill set rather than tell DD not to play with DFriend. DD isn't a victim, and perhaps dominate is the wrong word. DD's problem is being unable to voice her desire NOT to do something that DFriend wants to do because she is afraid DFriend will "not be her friend." DD is able to be cajoled into doing things she does not want to do, and later she is mad at herself, crying and upset. (This happens repeatedly.) IMO, that warrants some counseling. DFriend is a natural leader, and you are absolutely right, DD will encounter others. My reasons for wanting to disengage from the childcare swap is to give DD some space from having to deal with it both inside AND outside of the school day. From PPs, it seems that the collective advice is to leave it as is for now, so I will go with that. Thank you!

[mommy111]

Heck, if you feel you need permission to end the playdate relationship, do it. You have my blessing :) Do it though, because its getting toxic for you and not because its better for your DD. You still have the luxury to be able to do that, when they're older and have toxic friends/boyfriends, we won't be able to intervene, so enjoy your power now :loveeyes: No need to have a playdate that is OK for your DC but sets your teeth on edge

[elektra]

I have had a different approach but I sense that our DD's have similarities in their personalities. My DD is also much more of a follower. I think her best friends in aftercare are either the older girls (3rd grade and above) or a few of the Kindergarteners.
But I have not really tried to steer her much. I probably should do more playdates but I never make time to do that and we never get invited to any, partially because I am not a SAHM who can do afternoons I imagine. And then we are busy with activities or family gatherings on the weekends.

I would probably give yourself a break on analyzing all the playdate dynamics. And give your DD a break on how to manage all the scenarios, or on the "accountable" thing.

I do think that in our case, just staying busy with activities helps. DD can get social while doing her sport/class/whatever but it's not all about the talking or communicating. They are doing the activity together. It was a great group of kids and parents on her softball team last hear for instance. And with the teams, there are other parents around to help intervene too- it's not just a free for all like on a school playground. DS has even made friends while hanging out at DD's activities too!

There is one girl who DD has had some problems with in class. The girl isn't horrible or anything but I have seen first hand that she is bossy and a bit "know-it-all-ish". When the girl gets in her business, I told DD just to say, "Whatever, A" or "Mind your own business, A". Now that might not work exactly for your DD's situation because she seems to not want to rock the boat with the other girl, but maybe equipping her with some specific comebacks might help.

[BabyBearsMom]

The bolded is really what I want to know about holding DD accountable. Do I need to make sure she is defending the "bullied" child? ...Do I need to make sure she defends others?

In my house, it was more that if my mom heard that I was acting in this way, I would have been in BIG trouble. It was clear that it was not acceptable behavior in our house. However "making sure" your child is doing this is impossible unless you plan to install cameras on the playground to watch her every move or shadow her. I think that all you can do is make your expectations clear, try to raise an empathetic and kind child by showing her empathy/kindness and modeling that behavior consistently, and then let her make her own mistakes.

[goldenpig]

I hope it doesn't come off as trying to control or change DD's personality. I'm looking to build her toolkit. Perhaps the behavior you describe over exchange with her friend about the fan and "looking out for #1" is normal, but I would find it completely unacceptable, normal or not. I do not mean to criticize your parenting. There are many ways to handle situations, but the last thing I would have done is buy DD the fan she wanted. I would have told her she could be grateful for what she did have or have no fan. If she protested, I take the fan and we go home. Maybe I am mean, but we come down hard on being ungrateful when someone who owes you nothing (DD's friend's father) extends a kindness. With us, her parents, ingratitude is understandable; we give her her "needs" without expecting gratitude, so it is natural she feels like she can get her "wants" as well.

Anyway, I use that as an example of behavior being "normal," but not being "acceptable" to me. My question about accountability would mean to insist my DD defend the bullied child in the same way I insist on gratitude. I have not done it, but I could see a consequence being to take away a playdate with DFriend because DD "went along" with DFriend because she did not defend the child that DFriend was ostracizing. Based on what DD tells me (in processing her anxiety), I feel like I have a decent picture of the exchange and could hold her accountable.

ETA: From other posts, I've gleaned that holding her accountable to defend others on-the-spot is not age appropriate, so I will let it go and not bring up to DD. I'll suggest telling a teacher instead if needed.

Normally I'd agree with you, but we were in the middle of a holiday photo shoot with a professional photographer. The alternatives were 1) one crying sulky girl in all the pictures 2) Photoshop DD out of the pictures 3) cancel the photo shoot and take her home to teach her a lesson (and unfortunately we don't have time to reschedule with our busy schedules). Actually that would be positive reinforcement--she would love that, as she hates being in pictures. She takes after DH who is camera shy (the length of our photo shoots is determined by a race to see who is fed up with taking pictures first, the kids or DH!). Sometimes you gotta bend the rules. Totally worth the $5 for another pink fan.

Sounds like your DD is learning some useful social skills. I'd try not to project and worry so much!

[rin]

Heck, if you feel you need permission to end the playdate relationship, do it. You have my blessing :) Do it though, because its getting toxic for you and not because its better for your DD. You still have the luxury to be able to do that, when they're older and have toxic friends/boyfriends, we won't be able to intervene, so enjoy your power now :loveeyes: No need to have a playdate that is OK for your DC but sets your teeth on edge

Just to clarify, :yeahthat: ; I wasn't trying to say that I think you should continue the playdates, just that (based on what you've told us here) I wouldn't end them on your DD's behalf. If you personally don't want to do them anymore, though, absolutely feel free to stop!

[squimp]

I think regular standing playdates can be tough. It can almost be like a sibling relationship, for good or for bad, and it takes a special pairing of personalities and sometimes great maturity to make these regular playdates work. My DD has had a weekly playdate with her BFF for gosh about 6 years now. It works. They compromise. They argue sometimes, and sometimes other friends or little brothers get in the way, but overall it works.

I use this example because it doesn't always work, and I have learned to cut my losses when that happens. DD has another wonderful friend whom I adore, but they are so much alike, they both want to run the show all the time, and be right all the time, and it just does not work. So we cut our losses there, we stopped those playdates even though both moms get along fabulously, and we both WOTH and it would have been great for us. But it was becoming a bit toxic for the girls, so I let it drop. We moms actually didn't even have to talk about it, and the girls are still terrific friends, they just couldn't hack that time together.

So I also agree that you should give yourself permission to stop. I don't even think you need to talk about it with the mom because honestly I cannot think of any good ways to have that conversation with another parent where you bring up these issues without hurt feelings.

[ha98ed14]

So I also agree that you should give yourself permission to stop. I don't even think you need to talk about it with the mom because honestly I cannot think of any good ways to have that conversation with another parent where you bring up these issues without hurt feelings.

Thanks for the feedback. I think the description you gave of your DD and her friend is similar- I get on with DFriend's mom and that is where the friendship started. Now that it is so regular and the girls play exclusively together at school and 2 days week after school, it probably has become like a sibling relationship! I think space would probably be a good thing except I have committed to trading child care with my friend (the other mom). So ending the standing playdates means cutting back on sending DD to her house and/or watching DFriend at mine. THAT will be an awkward conversation. I would have to explain why I want to stop swapping childcare. The other mom and I are close enough that it would we weird if I just threw up an emotional wall and cut off one or both days without explanation.

On the way back from pickup today, we were walking home and we often walk with DFriend and her mom because we live near one another. DD said, "I'm going to run," and DFriend yelled at her, "NO, you're not!" Before I could stop myself, I said, "DFriend, DD does not like it when you talk like that." That's all I said, and she stopped and stared at me like deer in a headlights look. Her mom then said, "Thanks. She does that with everyone these days. She needs to hear no from someone other than me." So, her mom knows it's an issue.

[ha98ed14]

Just to clarify, :yeahthat: ; I wasn't trying to say that I think you should continue the playdates, just that (based on what you've told us here) I wouldn't end them on your DD's behalf. If you personally don't want to do them anymore, though, absolutely feel free to stop!

I knew what you meant. If it was just playdates, I would feel free to end it, but since we actually trade childcare, ending it would cause hardship for DFriend's mom because she WOTH. I WAH, so I have more flexibility. I can make up the hours at night if I need to. I want to be very sure that DD is really being harmed before I do anything. Right now, that is not clear. It's clear DD doesn't like being bossed around, but that's not necessarily harmful.

I don't know-- if it was just playdates, I would take a break for a while. But since her mom relies on me for childcare, I feel like I need to be pretty sure that I actually need to end it for DD's benefit. "Because I don't feel like it anymore" doesn't seem like a good enough reason. She'd really be up a creek...

[squimp]

Thanks for the feedback. I think the description you gave of your DD and her friend is similar- I get on with DFriend's mom and that is where the friendship started. Now that it is so regular and the girls play exclusively together at school and 2 days week after school, it probably has become like a sibling relationship! I think space would probably be a good thing except I have committed to trading child care with my friend (the other mom). So ending the standing playdates means cutting back on sending DD to her house and/or watching DFriend at mine. THAT will be an awkward conversation. I would have to explain why I want to stop swapping childcare. The other mom and I are close enough that it would we weird if I just threw up an emotional wall and cut off one or both days without explanation.

But I could not let that stop me from ending the playdates if that is the best thing for my DD. They may truly need a break from each other. I am really careful about DD's friends, and would not want her to get "stuck" with someone who's really difficult because it was convenient for me. I also like for her to have good role models in her friends. But I have discouraged friendships and we have agreed on not having playdates with certain unkind kids. She generally agrees with me and is really particular about friends, she is a strong personality and has a really big sense of justice. I would probably be more involved if she weren't making good choices in friends. But in this case it sounds like the mom recognizes that her DD is having some problems as well, maybe there is hope. At least the mom isn't shrugging her shoulders and saying 'like mother like daughter' or praising her bossiness.

[mommy111]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, it seems like letting OP's DD remain with the playdate would be the best thing for her DD (which is not to say a decision to end a standing playdate may not be the best in another situation, I've certainly ended standing playdates). However, this is a situation of DD who needs to learn to stand up for herself, a bossy friend who needs to be taught to be socially appropriate, and, very unusual situation, a couple of very sensible moms who are good friends and who both realize that there are things their kids need to learn and are willing to let each other teach. Its work, but OP can clearly teach her DD from this situation, how to stand up for herself...lessons best learnt now than in the teens.
Which is not to say that if it becomes too much of a hassle or an energy drain or an irritation, they should not end the playdates.....but I think the best possible outcome of this would be to expose your child to this situation and teach them to deal with it.

[HannaAddict]

I don't think you can expect your child to defend a loner or bullied child as age 6, if it is not in her DNA so to speak. I have two children that are very aware of justice issues and my then six year old has taken on that role and been a leader in her class with regards to a child with special needs ( befriending her and more), but it is who she is and for an anxious or less "leader" like child, it is too much to ask.

[HannaAddict]

I think regular standing playdates can be tough. It can almost be like a sibling relationship, for good or for bad, and it takes a special pairing of personalities and sometimes great maturity to make these regular playdates work. My DD has had a weekly playdate with her BFF for gosh about 6 years now. It works. They compromise. They argue sometimes, and sometimes other friends or little brothers get in the way, but overall it works.

I use this example because it doesn't always work, and I have learned to cut my losses when that happens. DD has another wonderful friend whom I adore, but they are so much alike, they both want to run the show all the time, and be right all the time, and it just does not work. So we cut our losses there, we stopped those playdates even though both moms get along fabulously, and we both WOTH and it would have been great for us. But it was becoming a bit toxic for the girls, so I let it drop. We moms actually didn't even have to talk about it, and the girls are still terrific friends, they just couldn't hack that time together.

So I also agree that you should give yourself permission to stop. I don't even think you need to talk about it with the mom because honestly I cannot think of any good ways to have that conversation with another parent where you bring up these issues without hurt feelings.

All of the above. It just didn't sound like that bad or anything that unusual from her original posts.