s/o - what would you say if your DS...

[twotimesblue]

Following on from the nail polish thread... what would you do if your DS asked you to buy him a hair bow? DS1 (age 3.5) and I were in Sears last week and on the way out he picked up a bright purple, sparkly hairband with a giant bow on it. He put it on and practically pleaded with me to buy it for him, asking: 'do I look lovely? Can I wear it to preschool?'. I told him that I had of hairbands etc at home that he could wear, and that we didn't need to buy any more at the moment... I felt bad, though, as though I was somehow limiting him without wanting to.

I have zero problem with him dressing up/wearing my jewelry/having 'girly' toys (alongside his trucks and Lego he has a beloved kitchen, doll stroller, tea set and is getting for a doll-sized Ergo for Christmas) but I didn't know how to respond. He is off-the-charts tall for his age (wears a 6T in many clothes) and people frequently ask him what grade he is in at school. He's just started preschool FGS! When he takes his doll stroller out to the park or store, we gets a lot of funny looks, largely because he looks so much older than he is, I think, and I would hate for him to pick up on any judgment/negativity at such an innocent age. He is such a sweet soul and I want to preserve that.

What should I have done?

[crl]

Well, I would have told my preschool age dd the same thing about buying a new hair thingy--we have plenty at home. Not sure if that makes you feel any better.

Catherine

[elektra]

Well, I would have told my preschool age dd the same thing about buying a new hair thingy--we have plenty at home. Not sure if that makes you feel any better.

Catherine

:yeahthat:

[SnuggleBuggles]

I let my 3-4yo ds1 buy and wear: lavender Dora socks w bows; pink rainbow backpack; a few pink shirts and some sparkly accessory. I'm a girly girl so I totally get why he'd want something pretty and shiny; except for cultural stereotypes, it makes sense to me that boys would be drawn to pretty, shiny things too. I'd have let him buy and wear it. At 3.5, peers would likely not notice. Around 4, some girl will likely give him flack for it but if he's prepared for that possibility, have at it. :)

[indigo99]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms but... My brother was a very sweet, gentle boy who loved to wear dresses and play with dolls when he was little (up until age 9 at least). My mom was very liberal in most areas and decided not to force anything on him so she would buy him dolls. Personally, I thought she went a little too far in letting him act feminine. She encouraged me to dress like a girl more, but wanted to encourage him to be a good father by letting him be a princess *shrug* Anyway, he adopted lots of mannerisms and preferences that are considered feminine. Then he started getting bullied in middle school for being gay. At the time, he wasn't straight or gay, but all of his peers starting telling him that he was gay.

Now he's in his 20s, and he is gay. He is studying gender in college actually, and he thinks that his childhood contributed to his identity. The bullying made him identify with gays and really set him up to question his sexuality. He probably would have been gay anyway, but he may have been more masculine if my mother had set up clearer male/female identities when he was young.

So... personally, I think it's normal for little boys to like pretty bows. I do tell my boys that girls wear dresses and bows in their hair, but that they can play dress up and wear them too sometimes if they want. I would not let them wear them in public. My boys do have a couple of dolls and a stroller, but we don't take it to the park. I'd probably let them, but I'd encourage them to take a tricycle or car instead (it's fun to roll vehicles down the slide and drive it through the mulch).

[SnuggleBuggles]

No one can contradict your family's experience but I just don't see it representing larger society. Plus, we are talking about little ones vs middle schoolers. Little ones live (or should) in a nice, safe, accepting bubble and they are unaware of boys vs girls' stuff.

Eta- I really just don't think you "make someone gay". I really, really don't. At some point along the way, your brother would have noticed how his peers acted and what they were into. He didn't share those same interests, mannerisms (as you say) or world view. I don't think being picked on changed his sexual orientation. I hope that he is in a place where he doesn't feel judged or that he of your family did anything wrong in the past to "make him gay".

[hillview]

DS2 wore pink jacket and pink/sparkley shoes at age 3-4. He outgrew it.

[wellyes]

I feel sorry for kids who are told what they can or can't do based on their sex when they're so little.
But I also don't buy little trinket for kids as we walk through stores because that stuff gets lost immediately.

[wellyes]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms but... My brother was a very sweet, gentle boy who loved to wear dresses and play with dolls when he was little (up until age 9 at least). My mom was very liberal in most areas and decided not to force anything on him so she would buy him dolls. Personally, I thought she went a little too far in letting him act feminine. She encouraged me to dress like a girl more, but wanted to encourage him to be a good father by letting him be a princess *shrug* Anyway, he adopted lots of mannerisms and preferences that are considered feminine. Then he started getting bullied in middle school for being gay. At the time, he wasn't straight or gay, but all of his peers starting telling him that he was gay.

Now he's in his 20s, and he is gay. He is studying gender in college actually, and he thinks that his childhood contributed to his identity. The bullying made him identify with gays and really set him up to question his sexuality. He probably would have been gay anyway, but he may have been more masculine if my mother had set up clearer male/female identities when he was young.

So... personally, I think it's normal for little boys to like pretty bows. I do tell my boys that girls wear dresses and bows in their hair, but that they can play dress up and wear them too sometimes if they want. I would not let them wear them in public. My boys do have a couple of dolls and a stroller, but we don't take it to the park. I'd probably let them, but I'd encourage them to take a tricycle or car instead (it's fun to roll vehicles down the slide and drive it through the mulch).

I get that what you're saying about your brother, that the gender fluidity may have had a negative impact on his life. Maybe yes, maybe he was being himself, it's an interesting question. But here's my concern. There's a boy in my son's preschool who dresses pretty feminine, and none of the boys or girls seems to think much of it. They're all 3, for goodness sake. If you are telling your sons, who are - what - 4 and 2? - that that's not OK, you might be setting them up to be the ones to "notice" what's wrong and be the ones to make it a less welcoming place. I don't think you want your kids to be the enforcers of gender norms, but teaching them that what's for girls and what's for boys so young might have some unexpected impacts.

[wendibird22]

I'm in the "we have a ton of headbands at home" camp just because that's exactly what I say to DDs when they want everything they see in the store. Then I'd follow through when we got home and found a headband for DS to wear...might even look around the house for scrap ribbon, buttons, doodads and offered to fancy it up for him. My girls get enough "gender norm" messages at school and daycare that I'm always responding to with, "Who says?" "Why?" "Why not?" If either of my girls wanted clothes from the boys dept I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. The notion that boys wear blue and girls wear pink will keep on being the norm my girls and their children will come to know unless/until we accept and invite girls to wear blue and boys to wear pink without judgement.

[AshleyAnn]

I have a DD and I probably would have said the same thing simply because I dont buy her everything we see in stores and we have headbands at home. You didn't squash his feelings and say "no you're a boy" I think your response was fine.

[Kindra178]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms but... My brother was a very sweet, gentle boy who loved to wear dresses and play with dolls when he was little (up until age 9 at least). My mom was very liberal in most areas and decided not to force anything on him so she would buy him dolls. Personally, I thought she went a little too far in letting him act feminine. She encouraged me to dress like a girl more, but wanted to encourage him to be a good father by letting him be a princess *shrug* Anyway, he adopted lots of mannerisms and preferences that are considered feminine. Then he started getting bullied in middle school for being gay. At the time, he wasn't straight or gay, but all of his peers starting telling him that he was gay.

Now he's in his 20s, and he is gay. He is studying gender in college actually, and he thinks that his childhood contributed to his identity. The bullying made him identify with gays and really set him up to question his sexuality. He probably would have been gay anyway, but he may have been more masculine if my mother had set up clearer male/female identities when he was young.

So... personally, I think it's normal for little boys to like pretty bows. I do tell my boys that girls wear dresses and bows in their hair, but that they can play dress up and wear them too sometimes if they want. I would not let them wear them in public. My boys do have a couple of dolls and a stroller, but we don't take it to the park. I'd probably let them, but I'd encourage them to take a tricycle or car instead (it's fun to roll vehicles down the slide and drive it through the mulch).

You can't make someone gay.

[BabyBearsMom]

DD1 is 3.5 and always begs for hair bows when she sees them at Target. She loves headbands with those giant bows on them and I am constantly telling her no because we have enough. But if he really wanted one and you were inclined to buy him something during that trip, I don't see why not. My girls will frequently request things that are typically associated with boys and I don't think twice about getting them.

Just read some of the prior resposes. I definitely do not think that letting children play with typically feminine or typically masculine items will in any way shape or form impact their sexual preference later on. You can't make someone gay or straight.

[BabbyO]

OP, I think your response was totally fine. I have, in fact, purchased "girly" things for my boys. Barretts, trinkets - but I'm the only girl in our house...and I'm not a girly girl. So we don't have those things. Sometimes I will simply let them have the choice (if they were going to get something anyway) - hotwheels or headband? Once they choose, it is fine with me. What I think is funny, is my boys will dress up some of their lovies as girls or they will completely transform whatever girly item they have into something totally different in their play.

Stachio had a pair of Dora socks when he was a bit younger that he just Loved. When he outgrew them I asked if he wanted another pair...but he'd moved on already.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

i would have said we have plenty at home to either my DS or DD. i've never bought a SINGLE bow in my life ,bc my MIL makes them for DD for every single occasion (halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, easter, etc) and then some, so we have MORE than enough!! so for me the response would be the same either way. i almost never buy anything in general fo r them if they see it in a store..trying to reduce clutter at home.

i let ds do girly stuff if he wants though. i let him play with my makeup and he sometimes likes to wear play necklaces. he play with dd's dora doll house. dd likes to wear ds's thomas socks. i like the idea of not encouraging kids to do only the stereotypical stuff.

[elektra]

Yeah, I also agree that "letting" your child act the way they feel most comfortable (feminine or masculine) would NOT "turn" them gay or straight.
Also, if my son is gay, that is who he is. The reason I might limit him in how he dresses in public is more just to warn him how others might take it. Or because I don't want to deal with holding their accessories when the get sick of them and want to take them off. Ex. he wanted to wear nailpolish on all his fingernails on the first day of school, do his hair, wear bracelets- just wanted to really bling out on the first day. I told him that he might overwhelm everyone on the first day and it might be better to go a little more low key. So we did his toenails only. I let him spike up his hair and wear the bracelet. And I also limit some of the hairbows on DD or ties or whatever on DS because they always ask me to hold them and it annoys me. At home he can play dressup or wear whatever he wants. He has not asked for hair bows but loves boy costumes, like superheroes, or animal ears and tails with clip on ties. I have let him wear them out but he himself is seeing that some people think it's weird and so he doesn't do it anymore really. I do want to encourage my DS to express himself. I have him in sports but I also have him in piano and am considering getting him singing lessons. SO more "girly" things.
And yeah, the begging in the store- hate that! I shut down most of that regardless of the gender associations.

[carolinacool]

Well, I'll admit I've told my DS "those are for girls" when he's asked me to buy some sparkly purse or shoes in Gymboree. But DS is the king of picking up random stuff and asking me to buy it and two seconds later, not thinking about it anymore. He's also never shown any serious interest in "girl" toys, so I know I'm not breaking his heart when I tell him to put down the heart-shaped purse. If I sensed he really, truly cared about it, I would probably buy it. I could probably do a better job of not labeling things "girl" or "boy."

[123LuckyMom]

I think what you did is fine. I sense you're questioning your decision because you worry you made that choice out of your own gender bias, and you don't want to have that bias or impart it to your son. That's very honorable of you, but I would put away that worry right now! You didn't say, "You can't have that because boys don't wear hair bows and other kids might tease you," so even if that is what you were secretly thinking, that is not what your son heard. All is well.

I must admit that I am not as free as some as far as letting my son wear "girl" clothes in public, but I am also just a stickler for appropriate clothing in general. My kids don't wear anything with sparkles, no athletic pants except to gymnastics, no leggings as pants, etc. I feel my general rigidity around clothing covers up my pretty strong gender bias ;). All those kind of clothes are for dress up at home (though my son did once wear full pirate regalia to his sister's doctor's appointment so he could show off his finery to the doctor) or for pjs.

Right now they are young. When they get older and start to assert themselves more around clothing, I'll have to decide how I feel about it, but I do know that if my children did wear what is often considered opposite gender clothing, our friends, most of our town, and our church family would all be safe havens for them and good support systems for me, so I could probably get over it!

[twotimesblue]

If either of my girls wanted clothes from the boys dept I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. The notion that boys wear blue and girls wear pink will keep on being the norm my girls and their children will come to know unless/until we accept and invite girls to wear blue and boys to wear pink without judgement.

Totally agree with this, but sadly, it is much more 'acceptable' for girls to wear boys' clothes/play with traditionally 'masculine' toys etc, than the other way around. My goddaughter went through a phase of wearing only army fatigues and taking toy hammers/drills out with her everywhere she went - people would stop and say how cute it was, but when her brother showed an interest in his sister's dolls, friends and relatives made negative comments. When DS1 was looking for a toy stroller in Target, an elderly lady walked past him and said: 'Is that for your sister?', he said no, it was for him, and she scrunched up her face and replied: "That's a girl's toy. The boys toys are over there'. I was furious!

Sadly the misconception that you can 'turn boys gay' by allowing them to play with anything other than trucks or Nerf guns is all too prevalent (and yes, why wouldn't a boy want a pair of sparkly shoes? Every time I walk through the shoe department of Nordstrom I see little boys eyeing the sequined girls' Toms. The boys' offerings are so depressingly drab - maybe that's one for the BP).

I love that DS1 is equally passionate about trucks, trains and baking cakes in his toy restaurant for his teddies. I will be very, very sad if/when society impacts upon his innate desire to be nurturing.

[Staraglimmer]

I would not have bought it for my daughters because they always ask for random things. I think it is somewhat unfair that girls can choose boy things (like a red dinosaur shirt) but boys can't chose girl things. If my DD plays with a truck, no one even notices. If I have my Godson a pink baby doll it wouldn't go over well. ??? I guess I'm glad I have girls in this instance.


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[wendibird22]

Totally agree with this, but sadly, it is much more 'acceptable' for girls to wear boys' clothes/play with traditionally 'masculine' toys etc, than the other way around.

I so agree. And I see my girls as just as much a part of the solution to this as those with boys letting them play with dolls and wear nail polish. That is why I (age appropriately) challenge them when they make comments about "that's for boys" or "here dad, you can have this, it's boy colors." I don't want either of my DDs growing up to be like that elderly lady you encountered in the store.

[almostmom]

I think I probably would have reacted the same way in the moment, and then felt as you do - wondering if it was the right decision! I'm assuming from your name that you have 2 boys, right? If that is the case, I might buy a sparkly headband for your son. My son, who is now 10, likes to dress up in his sister's stuff. He likes to put on headbands, sparkly clothes of hers, even put on make-up. He really gets a kick out of it, and usually does it with DD, though not always. He is a pretty masculine kid, not that I care either way, but it's fun for him to act as something he's not, to look at himself in the mirror and see someone else. He has access to that stuff (I don't wear sparkly clothes or hair accessories) because he has a sister, but if he didn't, I'd probably buy it.

DS has also periodically wanted his nails or toenails painted. My parents HATE it and have actually taken it off when he was at their house with it. I was beyond furious. DS even wore it to school some. He was so excited. I was nervous for him, explained that I didn't want him to be laughed at, but he got the risk and wanted to take it. He got on the bus and showed everyone and had total confidence that his blue and red nails were really cool, and they were. I don't think anyone made fun of him (this was probably in 2nd or 3rd grade). He took it off on his own a few days later.

Kids get what the norms are when it is age appropriate (and I think in pre-school, anything goes), and then I think it's ok for them to test those norms if they want. He knows no other boys are wearing nail polish. But even now, he loves having clear nail polish on! And while I would be (will be) 100% fine if he is gay, I'm 95% sure he's not. Some boys are just intrigued by the fun stuff that girls get to do!

And i agree with everyone who said you can't make someone gay. The mannerisms (and sexual preference) of one poster's brother are not a result of being allowed to play with girl stuff. Plenty of very stereotypically-acting gay men were not given as much freedom as children and still have those mannerisms!

[AnnieW625]

I simply tell my kids "no" and then make a note of it as a potential gift for Christmas, birthdays, whatever special event might be around the corner. Would I let my son buy a headband or frilly socks or what not, probably, but would probably keep it for a home dress up thing, but I could probably see myself saying "oh those are for girls too and I don't think there is anything wrong with that either, but it would definitely be a case by case basis. Heck a couple of the boys in DD1's class last year (and in kindergarten) had very girly-ish Justin Bieber lunch boxes and no one cared. One of the kindergarten girls has a Lego Ninjago backpack this year and I think that is cool.


.....[B]The reason I might limit him in how he dresses in public is more just to warn him how others might take it.

I think Indigo was trying to get at; her mom didn't help any by allowing it all of the time and allowing it outside of the house and therefore because it was more frequent in public it then caused bullying issues and questions about his sexuality, when even though he may he knew he was gay then it might not have been as hard for him to process it because people weren't making fun of him.

[georgiegirl]

I don't buy trinkets like that for either kid on tne fly. Since DS has a big sister, he's dressed up in fairy costumes and high heels many times before. I think that it's easier if the boy has an older sister, since he can explore "girly" things without the parents having to buy something new. I wonder if boys without sisters ask for "girly things" more than boys who have sisters. All toddlers like sparkly things.

DS (4) had an enormous fit at gap kids a month or so ago because he wanted me to buy him a charm...a hot pink cell phone with rhinestones on it. It was super funny, and the sales people were trying not to laugh, since he seriously asked me three million times to buy him that damn charm. I never said anything about it being girly and not for boys. Just "you don't need that charm. We have jewelry at home." I came back a few days later (without him) to return something and the sales lady said she almost bought him that charm since he was so cute begging for it.

[maestramommy]

Eta- I really just don't think you "make someone gay". I really, really don't. At some point along the way, your brother would have noticed how his peers acted and what they were into. He didn't share those same interests, mannerisms (as you say) or world view. I don't think being picked on changed his sexual orientation. I hope that he is in a place where he doesn't feel judged or that he of your family did anything wrong in the past to "make him gay".

I agree. My youngest brother is gay. He has big beautiful eyes with thick lashes twice as long as all of his sisters. When we were kids we tried to get him to dress as a girl for play and he absolutely refused. The entire time he was growing up he resisted cross dressing. I think it gave him the creeps. Well now he's gay, and while somewhat effeminate he still refuses to cross dress even for theater (he's an actor and dancer at night). And he tells us he always kind of knew he was "different," as early as 6. Since I had my first crush at 5 I don't doubt it. Our upbringing was very traditional and whenever my brother cried my dad would try to criticize him out of it, admonish him to "be a man." So yeah, I really don't think things like this make someone gay.

[indigo99]

I never said that you can make someone gay. I just said that my brother thinks his childhood and the complete lack of knowledge of male/female gender differences may have affected his gender identity(mainly by contributing to bullying). His response to being told by his peers that he was going to hell for being gay was mostly "so what if I am" even though that was before he had even established on his own whether he was or not. I don't think that elementary crushes are the same as real sexual attraction either. My brother was infatuated with girls when he was little, and we didn't have the "how do I know if I'm gay" talks until later in middle school.

I gave DS a pink hello kitty hand vac as his reward for FINALLY pooping in the potty yesterday, and he LOVES it. I'm not advocating blue versus pink rules at all. I just think it can be taken too far in either direction.

eta: I just cut DS2's hair for the first time last week even though people have mistaken him for a girl for months. His hair was cute long, but it was starting to get caught in his bib and jacket and hurting him. My boys are just starting to differentiate between girls and boys though, and one of the things they look at when trying to tell is whether someone is wearing a dress and bows because those are the girls.

[Globetrotter]

DS doesn't mind wearing dd's hand me down pjs with pretty birds on them or slightly feminine shirts, and I like that about him. I don't blame boys for being attracted to the sparkly stuff. As a pp said, the boy stuff is dreadfully drab! DS went through a phase, when he was little, when he allowed dd and her friends to dress him like a princess, etc.. I think it's rather sweet that they considered him their live doll.

We've always encouraged him to play with dolls, play house and do crafts (why not??) and so on. I love that he has a tender, nurturing side and smiles at pictures of cute babies and puppies and isn't all rough and tumble, though he does also love sports and building toys, etc.. I got very upset when my cousin told him, at the tender age of five, that he shouldn't be playing with our toy kitchen. WTH? Needless to say, said cousin and his wife have stereotypical gender roles, which is NOT what I want for my kids.

In the other thread, I said I didn't know what I would do about the nail polish, but then I remembered that I have let him wear it the one time he asked. Now I don't know for sure how I would be if he wanted to be a princess for halloween when he was little, and I truly admire my friend for letting her ds just be and do all things girly. I think I would have struggled with that because of the teasing aspect, though I know it shouldn't matter.

I also firmly agree that you can't make someone gay by supporting their desires. You might make it easier for them to come out as gay, but I'm guessing there are a lot of folks who come out ONLY because they are supported. The rest lead double lives or are repressed, which is far worse. I have a lot of faith that, in the next generation, things will be much better.

[boolady]

I never said that you can make someone gay. I just said that my brother thinks his childhood and the complete lack of knowledge of male/female gender differences may have affected his gender identity(mainly by contributing to bullying). His response to being told by his peers that he was going to hell for being gay was mostly "so what if I am" even though that was before he had even established on his own whether he was or not. I don't think that elementary crushes are the same as real sexual attraction either. My brother was infatuated with girls when he was little, and we didn't have the "how do I know if I'm gay" talks until later in middle school.

I'm not really understanding this. Your brother thinks he is gay because he was bullied into being gay or because of the power of suggestion?

[mommylamb]

I also think it's worth pointing out that gender identity and sexuality are two different things.

[crayonblue]

I'm not trying to open a can of worms but... My brother was a very sweet, gentle boy who loved to wear dresses and play with dolls when he was little (up until age 9 at least). My mom was very liberal in most areas and decided not to force anything on him so she would buy him dolls. Personally, I thought she went a little too far in letting him act feminine. She encouraged me to dress like a girl more, but wanted to encourage him to be a good father by letting him be a princess *shrug* Anyway, he adopted lots of mannerisms and preferences that are considered feminine. Then he started getting bullied in middle school for being gay. At the time, he wasn't straight or gay, but all of his peers starting telling him that he was gay.

Now he's in his 20s, and he is gay. He is studying gender in college actually, and he thinks that his childhood contributed to his identity. The bullying made him identify with gays and really set him up to question his sexuality. He probably would have been gay anyway, but he may have been more masculine if my mother had set up clearer male/female identities when he was young.

So... personally, I think it's normal for little boys to like pretty bows. I do tell my boys that girls wear dresses and bows in their hair, but that they can play dress up and wear them too sometimes if they want. I would not let them wear them in public. My boys do have a couple of dolls and a stroller, but we don't take it to the park. I'd probably let them, but I'd encourage them to take a tricycle or car instead (it's fun to roll vehicles down the slide and drive it through the mulch).

Indigo99, what you said shouldn't be opening a can of worms. Your brother has the right to his opinions about his experiences and really, it's quite funny when straight people on message boards try to argue that.

[Aishe]

I also think it's worth pointing out that gender identity and sexuality are two different things.

:yeahthat: There are a lot of issues getting confused here. Gender identity and sexuality are not the same thing. Effeminate mannerisms do not necessarily mean a man is gay, nor does a gay man necessarily exhibit such mannerisms . (My gay brother is not even remotely feminine.) Honestly, it sounds like the pp's brother is uncomfortable with his sexuality and is still working through it. (And mothers are always easy scapegoats, of course.) I hope he is able to make peace with it.

[BabbyO]

A PP noted that maybe it is a bit harder for boys who don't have older female siblings to explore the "girly" stuff because they don't have access to it. I would totally agree with that. Stachio truly LOVES anything sparkly and really, boys things are generally not sparkly, so I do give in and get him traditionally "girl" things occasionally when he asks. But I do also notice when items that are traditionally "gender neutral" are sparkly and get those for my DS'. For example...Michaels had sparkly Halloween electric tea lights. I got the boys a pack of them because they just love that they are glittery green, orange, and purple.