Disney lawsuit...did anyone see this?

[scrooks]

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-disney-sued-over-new-ride-access-policy-for-disabled-20140410,0,4731355.story#axzz2yb7dUYH8

I don't know what the answer is for Disney. The stories of people hiring disable people to accompany them and cut the lines were AWFUL but I completely understand that some people with disabilities simply can't wait in a line....

My mom and I always debate this because we swear up and down my cousin always pays to take my disabled aunt to disney with them so they can cut the lines.....

[maestramommy]

The lawsuit suggests that Disney might have adopted the new policy to discourage families of autistic children from visiting the park because they may disrupt the "magical Disney experience enjoyed by Disney’s nondisabled guests."[/COLOR]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-disney-disabled-suit-20140410,0,3734518.story#ixzz2ybC0bPkM]

Okay I know Disney is all about the happiest place on earth, but I don't believe this for a minute.

I thought the story about people hiring disabled people to go with them was awful too. I can see why Disney now has disabled guests take a photo for a pass, but why did they change the policy from getting on a ride right away to coming back later and maybe getting on a ride sooner? That's no different than Fast Pass. It doesn't make sense.

[niccig]

A friend is posting on FB about this as they have a disabled son. She said the original system was better for them, but they can make the new way work.

What I'm not sure I understand is this: is Disney or any amusement park obligated to have a policy that people agree with? I know they need things to be ADA compliant, there has to be a way to access the rides, but whether it's go to front of line or get a number and come back like they're saying, is there any obligation to have one over the other? It sounds like people are going to be unhappy either way. And I wonder if people gaming the system, if it really turned out to big an issue that they needed to change the system. I agree it's awful people were doing it, but was it happening that much to change things?

[lalasmama]

A friend is posting on FB about this as they have a disabled son. She said the original system was better for them, but they can make the new way work.

What I'm not sure I understand is this: is Disney or any amusement park obligated to have a policy that people agree with? I know they need things to be ADA compliant, there has to be a way to access the rides, but whether it's go to front of line or get a number and come back like they're saying, is there any obligation to have one over the other? It sounds like people are going to be unhappy either way. And I wonder if people gaming the system, if it really turned out to big an issue that they needed to change the system. I agree it's awful people were doing it, but was it happening that much to change things?

Didn't read the original article (going to do that in a moment, but fairly certain it's going to tick me off). However, as far as the above goes, all that Disney is *required* to do is be ADA compliant, which is what the old-school "GAC" (Guest Assistance Card and related policies) made happen. Since so much of the original park was built pre-ADA standards, it was easier to make a single gate at each ride ADA compliant, and just have people that qualify use that. So, that's where the magical "line" is that they have to meet. You are right--no one is ever going to be 100% happy.

Okay, off to read the original article.

[JBaxter]

So instead of just going to the front of the line they get a ticket to come back like the speed passes? We've only been to disney 2x so I wasn't exactly sure how it worked

[niccig]

So instead of just going to the front of the line they get a ticket to come back like the speed passes? We've only been to disney 2x so I wasn't exactly sure how it worked

I don't get the difference between it and the fast pass either. I think that's why people are upset. They used to be able to go to the ride and go straight to front of line, whereas with the new system you have to go do something else then come back.

[wellyes]

I am not a lawyer but I can't think of any justification for this lawsuit. I can understand being upset, even heartbroken at the changes. But there are a lot of ways for dissatisfied customers to register complaints, I don't think litigation is the solution here since I can't think of any way any law is being broken, even in spirit.

[o_mom]

So instead of just going to the front of the line they get a ticket to come back like the speed passes? We've only been to disney 2x so I wasn't exactly sure how it worked

I think the number of Fast Passes for regular ticket holders are now limited in a couple ways so the advantage here is the unlimited number.

[JBaxter]

Maybe the people should track down the abusers of the system and sue them

[TwinFoxes]

Okay I know Disney is all about the happiest place on earth, but I don't believe this for a minute.



:yeahthat: I agree, that's a bit far fetched.

Fast passes are only available on certain "E-Ticket" rides. Sounds like the new disabled passes will be for all rides.

I think the cases of people hiring disabled people to get to the head of the line were way, way overblown.

[lalasmama]

I think the cases of people hiring disabled people to get to the head of the line were way, way overblown.

This. Exactly.

[mommy111]

This. Exactly.
:yeahthat:
I've never felt my disney experience being diminished or felt like I've had to wait for unreaonable time periods because some disabled person was let pass ahead. If anything, I would gladly give my place to someone disabled and if it means some random people taking advantage of the system, then so be it. You never know what its like to live with a disability unless you have one

[Thatchermom]

The new system is terribly flawed for one big issue and is the reason we are not doing DW with my parents this summer.

For each attraction we want to visit we now have to physically travel to it TWICE, once to be assigned our ride time, once to ride. My mom is permanently wheelchair bound - about 25/75 she wheels/we push while in the park so she has energy to still transfer, etc. The new system doubles the work of moving through the park and is just more than she can physically accomplish. It was already a hugely demanding venture for her and the change makes it impossible. As long as the new system stands Disney is off the table for us - despite the fact they live 30 minutes from the park.

We have been amazed with their service to her in the past. It truly was part of the magic for us to see how easily she could be a part of it all. It was a great experience for her with the kids. This feels like the least Disneyish thing they have ever done. I expect better, more creative and more workable plans than this from Disney. I can see why someone would be trying to force a change.



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[123LuckyMom]

The new system is terribly flawed for one big issue and is the reason we are not doing DW with my parents this summer.

For each attraction we want to visit we now have to physically travel to it TWICE, once to be assigned our ride time, once to ride. My mom is permanently wheelchair bound - about 25/75 she wheels/we push while in the park so she has energy to still transfer, etc. The new system doubles the work of moving through the park and is just more than she can physically accomplish. It was already a hugely demanding venture for her and the change makes it impossible. As long as the new system stands Disney is off the table for us - despite the fact they live 30 minutes from the park.

We have been amazed with their service to her in the past. It truly was part of the magic for us to see how easily she could be a part of it all. It was a great experience for her with the kids. This feels like the least Disneyish thing they have ever done. I expect better, more creative and more workable plans than this from Disney. I can see why someone would be trying to force a change.



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This is a great explanation of why the lawsuit might be happening. I was sooooo impressed with Disney's responsiveness to our issues and needs the last time we went. We did have GAC (?) passes, but we were mainstreamed in most lines, so we waited the same length of time as everyone else on most rides. We didn't need to avoid the wait, just having to wait on our feet. If we had had to travel to the ride just to get a pass in order to return later, it would have doubled our travel distance, and that would have been a big problem!

I hope Disney can come up with a better solution. I still think a lawsuit is not the way to go.

[buddyleebaby]

The new system is terribly flawed for one big issue and is the reason we are not doing DW with my parents this summer.

For each attraction we want to visit we now have to physically travel to it TWICE, once to be assigned our ride time, once to ride. My mom is permanently wheelchair bound - about 25/75 she wheels/we push while in the park so she has energy to still transfer, etc. The new system doubles the work of moving through the park and is just more than she can physically accomplish. It was already a hugely demanding venture for her and the change makes it impossible. As long as the new system stands Disney is off the table for us - despite the fact they live 30 minutes from the park.

We have been amazed with their service to her in the past. It truly was part of the magic for us to see how easily she could be a part of it all. It was a great experience for her with the kids. This feels like the least Disneyish thing they have ever done. I expect better, more creative and more workable plans than this from Disney. I can see why someone would be trying to force a change.



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Do you know how they assign the ride times?
For example, if the current estimated wait time (for those in line) is 5 minutes, would your assigned time be five minutes later, whereas a current wait time of 45 minutes would make your ride time 45 minutes later? Or is it just a random time?

[wellyes]

This is a great explanation of why the lawsuit might be happening. I was sooooo impressed with Disney's responsiveness to our issues and needs the last time we went. We did have GAC (?) passes, but we were mainstreamed in most lines, so we waited the same length of time as everyone else on most rides. We didn't need to avoid the wait, just having to wait on our feet. If we had had to travel to the ride just to get a pass in order to return later, it would have doubled our travel distance, and that would have been a big problem!

I hope Disney can come up with a better solution. I still think a lawsuit is not the way to go.

It was better before, now it is not as good, that's clear. But I still don't really get why the lawsuit is happening.

[PZMommy]

Do you know how they assign the ride times?
For example, if the current estimated wait time (for those in line) is 5 minutes, would your assigned time be five minutes later, whereas a current wait time of 45 minutes would make your ride time 45 minutes later? Or is it just a random time?

From my understanding, it is whatever the wait time is, minus about ten minutes (to allow for the travel time back and forth). If the wait time is less than 10 minutes, they are supposed to let you right on.

[scrooks]

Maybe they can use the new fast pass system to help out disabled guests. From what I understand you can make 3 fast pass reservations per day electronically ( correct me if I am wrong)? Maybe they can provide special logins for disabled guest so they can make extras....like 8-10 and have their whole day planned ahead of time without having to back track all over the park?

[PZMommy]

Maybe they can use the new fast pass system to help out disabled guests. From what I understand you can make 3 fast pass reservations per day electronically ( correct me if I am wrong)? Maybe they can provide special logins for disabled guest so they can make extras....like 8-10 and have their whole day planned ahead of time without having to back track all over the park?

That isn't a bad idea, but Disneyland, doesn't have the fast pass plus system yet, so they would still need to do something there.

[AshleyAnn]

The new system is terribly flawed for one big issue and is the reason we are not doing DW with my parents this summer.

For each attraction we want to visit we now have to physically travel to it TWICE, once to be assigned our ride time, once to ride. My mom is permanently wheelchair bound - about 25/75 she wheels/we push while in the park so she has energy to still transfer, etc. The new system doubles the work of moving through the park and is just more than she can physically accomplish. It was already a hugely demanding venture for her and the change makes it impossible. As long as the new system stands Disney is off the table for us - despite the fact they live 30 minutes from the park.

We have been amazed with their service to her in the past. It truly was part of the magic for us to see how easily she could be a part of it all. It was a great experience for her with the kids. This feels like the least Disneyish thing they have ever done. I expect better, more creative and more workable plans than this from Disney. I can see why someone would be trying to force a change.



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Mobility disabilities are no longer given a DAS card. They've improved the entrances/queues for rides so they are wheelchair accessible. The only guests given a DAS are those who are not able to wait in the queue itself for whatever reason. Basically it holds their place in line while they wait their turn elsewhere.

Also to get a return time for a DAS the person on the card does not need to be present. They have to be present when the DAS is presenting to ride the ride but not to request a ride time. May families are having 1 member of the group be a "runner" and go to the rides ahead of the group to get a return time issued who then meets back up with the group. This seems to work well since moving thru the crowd with a wheel chair is slow moving.

[kellij]

It was better before, now it is not as good, that's clear. But I still don't really get why the lawsuit is happening.

I don't think they have a cause of action either, but anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything. It doesn't mean they will win though. We also don't really know all the details.

It's too bad people have taken advantage of the system so that Disney felt the need to change it. I've seen a couple of people do what looked like taking advantage of the system a little bit. One was a guy with a broken leg, or knee brace or something. He and his party of like 8 got to walk right up to the front after we had been waiting an hour. Same thing with a woman who was really really obese, so I don't know if she could walk or not, she was on one of those cars you drive. It's that they also had so many people with them, and for rides that we had been waiting around forever for, that made it more noticeable. We also saw someone walk right up, with about 6 people, that didn't have a visible disability at all. But it stinks for people like pp's mom, who really can't wait longer for rides due to a disability.

[lalasmama]

It's too bad people have taken advantage of the system so that Disney felt the need to change it. I've seen a couple of people do what looked like taking advantage of the system a little bit. One was a guy with a broken leg, or knee brace or something. He and his party of like 8 got to walk right up to the front after we had been waiting an hour. Same thing with a woman who was really really obese, so I don't know if she could walk or not, she was on one of those cars you drive. It's that they also had so many people with them, and for rides that we had been waiting around forever for, that made it more noticeable. We also saw someone walk right up, with about 6 people, that didn't have a visible disability at all. But it stinks for people like pp's mom, who really can't wait longer for rides due to a disability.

Wow. I'm trying not to read into what you posted, but as I just read it, you think a disability should be apparent to be able to use the pass?

I have MS, and I have used the Disney system every time I visit DL. I walk. I don't *look* disabled. If you see me when it's 60* out, I look like any other 30-something. Chances are, you didn't see when my legs gave out walking down Main Street, or crawling to something I can help pull myself up on, because I fell--again--on those d@mn uneven stairs on Indiana Jones. I have to have people stare at me as I ask for the "conveyer belt" rides to be stopped because I can't coordinate my walking with the moving walkway. Oh, and I get to hear people tell me I'm abusing a system because I don't look sick/disabled.

I'm always interested in what people think should constitute receiving a disability pass at Disney.... A walking issue? Autism Spectrum? Only those in a wheel chair? And who should get to decide? Personally, I'm thankful Disney gives me a pass that let's me avoid falling down the stairs (again!), and lets me sit and wait for my turn.

End point, though, is that I would give anything to not need that pass. To not fall on Main Street. To be able to walk from one ride to the next without three breaks. To get to go during the summer without endangering my health. To not have people making snap judgements about my health without ever asking. To be able to feel my feet. All I want is to enjoy Disney with my family just like everyone else.

[MamaMolly]

Wow. I'm trying not to read into what you posted, but as I just read it, you think a disability should be apparent to be able to use the pass?

I have MS, and I have used the Disney system every time I visit DL. I walk. I don't *look* disabled. If you see me when it's 60* out, I look like any other 30-something. Chances are, you didn't see when my legs gave out walking down Main Street, or crawling to something I can help pull myself up on, because I fell--again--on those d@mn uneven stairs on Indiana Jones. I have to have people stare at me as I ask for the "conveyer belt" rides to be stopped because I can't coordinate my walking with the moving walkway. Oh, and I get to hear people tell me I'm abusing a system because I don't look sick/disabled.

I'm always interested in what people think should constitute receiving a disability pass at Disney.... A walking issue? Autism Spectrum? Only those in a wheel chair? And who should get to decide? Personally, I'm thankful Disney gives me a pass that let's me avoid falling down the stairs (again!), and lets me sit and wait for my turn.

End point, though, is that I would give anything to not need that pass. To not fall on Main Street. To be able to walk from one ride to the next without three breaks. To get to go during the summer without endangering my health. To not have people making snap judgements about my health without ever asking. To be able to feel my feet. All I want is to enjoy Disney with my family just like everyone else.

:applause: and :grouphug:

[georgiegirl]

I will preface my response by saying I have a half brother with multiple disabilities (physical and cognitive and more!) and my dad and stepmom take him to Disney annually and they get the special pass. My sister used to go with them and she loved not having to wait in line. But she wasn't so keen on riding small world 10 times in a row...lol.

Disney is so expensive and the lines can be very long (especially of you don't know how to plan your itinerary), so people get very frustrated with people with disabilities don't have to wait in line. I think it's completely reasonable to make everyone (even those with disabilities) wait, even if it's not in line (come back later.). It's only fair that everyone needs to wait or use a fast pass or fast pass like system.

The lawsuit seems ridiculous.

[TwinFoxes]

Wow. I'm trying not to read into what you posted, but as I just read it, you think a disability should be apparent to be able to use the pass?



I agree 100% with your post.

One of the most memorable posts I read here was by a BBBer who got called out for using a disabled spot. She had her DD hand her the DD's fake leg so she could wave it at the guy who had appointed himself disabilities police. That shut him up.

[TwinFoxes]

Disney is so expensive and the lines can be very long (especially of you don't know how to plan your itinerary), so people get very frustrated with people with disabilities don't have to wait in line. I think it's completely reasonable to make everyone (even those with disabilities) wait, even if it's not in line (come back later.). It's only fair that everyone needs to wait or use a fast pass or fast pass like system.

The lawsuit seems ridiculous.

I understand this viewpoint. But I do think for some people it will make it too difficult. It seem like there has to be a better idea.

[Pear]

The new system doesn't really force people to visit rides twice. They could choose to just wait until the designated time like everyone else who is having to stay in line. It is a choice to use that wait time to fit in another activity.

[TwinFoxes]

The new system doesn't really force people to visit rides twice. They could choose to just wait until the designated time like everyone else who is having to stay in line. It is a choice to use that wait time to fit in another activity.

Good point. Although not all rides have suitable waiting areas nearby...someplace with seats, shade would be a bonus.

[wellyes]

I understand this viewpoint. But I do think for some people it will make it too difficult. It seem like there has to be a better idea.

I wonder what the response would have been if they didn't start from a place of exceptional accommodation.

I personally have never been and will probably never go due to the expensive - so this lawsuit doesn't really move me. I think the park has a legal and also an ethical obligation to accommodate all it's customers, but, it seems to be doing so in a reasonable manner. Some of the vitriol I've seen on the topic (not here! ) is really over the top.

[Green_Tea]

I wonder what the response would have been if they didn't start from a place of exceptional accommodation.

I personally have never been and will probably never go due to the expense - so this lawsuit doesn't really move me. I think the park has a legal and also an ethical obligation to accommodate all it's customers, but, it seems to be doing so in a reasonable manner. Some of the vitriol I've seen on the topic (not here!) is really over the top.

I think this is where I stand as well. It sounds to me like the new policy is reasonable, if not as generous as the old policy. I empathize with families who feel like they can no longer go due to the change in policy, but there are many, many families who will never go for other reasons - expenses, distance, etc. It's unlikely that I will ever take my own kids to Disney simply because my youngest child would be absolutely miserable waiting in lines.

[AshleyAnn]

I wonder what the response would have been if they didn't start from a place of exceptional accommodation.

I personally have never been and will probably never go due to the expensive - so this lawsuit doesn't really move me. I think the park has a legal and also an ethical obligation to accommodate all it's customers, but, it seems to be doing so in a reasonable manner. Some of the vitriol I've seen on the topic (not here! ) is really over the top.

:yeahthat:

I'm a member of a disney discussion board as well as the BBB and some of the accommodations people expect are quite outrageous imho. The excuses/reasoning behind many of these requests just dont hold water with me. That being said - I like the new setup. I think its fair everyone has to wait their turn but those who cant handle the wait in line are given the option of waiting elsewhere. That is equal access as prescribed by the ADA.

[OKKiddo]

Wow. I'm trying not to read into what you posted, but as I just read it, you think a disability should be apparent to be able to use the pass?

I have MS, and I have used the Disney system every time I visit DL. I walk. I don't *look* disabled. If you see me when it's 60* out, I look like any other 30-something. Chances are, you didn't see when my legs gave out walking down Main Street, or crawling to something I can help pull myself up on, because I fell--again--on those d@mn uneven stairs on Indiana Jones. I have to have people stare at me as I ask for the "conveyer belt" rides to be stopped because I can't coordinate my walking with the moving walkway. Oh, and I get to hear people tell me I'm abusing a system because I don't look sick/disabled.

I'm always interested in what people think should constitute receiving a disability pass at Disney.... A walking issue? Autism Spectrum? Only those in a wheel chair? And who should get to decide? Personally, I'm thankful Disney gives me a pass that let's me avoid falling down the stairs (again!), and lets me sit and wait for my turn.

End point, though, is that I would give anything to not need that pass. To not fall on Main Street. To be able to walk from one ride to the next without three breaks. To get to go during the summer without endangering my health. To not have people making snap judgements about my health without ever asking. To be able to feel my feet. All I want is to enjoy Disney with my family just like everyone else.


My friend has Parkinson's. She's young and was only diagnosed a year ago. And yet she falls A LOT. She still refuses to park in the handicap spots at Walmart or the Drs office because she says she doesn't look handicapped. The last time she fell, she nearly broke her hand. Her balance issues have gotten worse and I would hate to think the stares she would get because she didn't look disabled. :(

[OKKiddo]

Disney is so expensive and the lines can be very long (especially of you don't know how to plan your itinerary), so people get very frustrated with people with disabilities don't have to wait in line. I think it's completely reasonable to make everyone (even those with disabilities) wait, even if it's not in line (come back later.). It's only fair that everyone needs to wait or use a fast pass or fast pass like system.

The lawsuit seems ridiculous.


The thing is, not everyone has the same disabilities that you've witnessed. DS1 is on the spectrum. When he was first diagnosed I could breathe and he would have a tantrum that would last an hour or more. Imagine that. Just your day to day must do's and you never know at which minute your child will break down into a tantrum that can last for over an hour--to include self harming, loud screaming, flailing limbs, etc.

When we finally got to a point that I felt we could manage, we went to Disney and I thank God and Disney both for giving us that little red poster card that said we could go to the front of the line. I would NOT have had the energy or the life in me to have endured a wait and I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be my son--locked inside himself unable to communicate how he felt to be waiting. With the new system, I cannot imagine what kind of a tantrum it would have brought on my son--in his bad days of early diagnosis--to approach a much anticipated ride and then to NOT GET ON IT. To turn away and tell a child, incapable of understanding, that he has to wait x amount of time and we'll come back.

I understand that waiting is a part of life. But imagine if life weren't easy for you or your child had no way to communicate and handle what he was feeling/thinking and instead self harmed or screamed for over an hour.

Now, DS1 is no longer like this and he could handle the wait times and the having to get a pass to come back later. THANK GOD! (And all the therapy we've done as though it were a full time job!!) But, I will never look at someone cutting the line with their fast pass and think they're not disabled enough or that they should have to wait just like me...because maybe their circumstances are different and I shouldn't be the judge.

[Pennylane]

Just curious, what does Disney require as proof that you are disabled?

Ann

[wellyes]

With the new system, I cannot imagine what kind of a tantrum it would have brought on my son--in his bad days of early diagnosis--to approach a much anticipated ride and then to NOT GET ON IT. To turn away and tell a child, incapable of understanding, that he has to wait x amount of time and we'll come back.

I like the PP's suggestion of having someone else get the pass, then have the whole party return when it's time to get on the ride. I wonder if they'd even have a conciege service to take care of this if it was a single parent there with a disabled child?

I do feel like part of the change may have come from customer complaints about people with non-visible disabilities, or disabilities that healthy people frown upon (PP mentioned a woman too obese to walk....) may have been an impetus behind this change. And that sucks.

[speo]

I do feel like part of the change may have come from customer complaints about people with non-visible disabilities, or disabilities that healthy people frown upon (PP mentioned a woman too obese to walk....) may have been an impetus behind this change. And that sucks.

I would think there might also be complaints about larger groups and one obviously disabled person. Is there a limit on the number of people that could go with the disable person through the lines? Perhaps the group sizes allowed were too large?

[lalasmama]

Just curious, what does Disney require as proof that you are disabled?

Ann

Due to HIPAA, they may not ask for proof of disability.


I would think there might also be complaints about larger groups and one obviously disabled person. Is there a limit on the number of people that could go with the disable person through the lines? Perhaps the group sizes allowed were too large?

I believe at Disneyland, it's 6 people with the pass, and any more is up to the discretion of the cast member (employee).

[TwinFoxes]

I just looked at the Disney site. Reading it, I really think that they will continue to accommodate people whose needs won't be met by the new system.


What will Disney Parks do if a Guest is concerned the DAS Card doesn’t meet their needs?
Disney Parks have long recognized and accommodated guests with varying needs and will continue to work individually with guests with disabilities to provide assistance that is responsive to their unique circumstances. Guests should visit Guest Relations to discuss their individual needs.


http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/disney-parks-disability-access-service-card-fact-sheet/


Just curious, what does Disney require as proof that you are disabled?

Ann

Nothing.

[AshleyAnn]

Just curious, what does Disney require as proof that you are disabled?

Ann

None. Part of the ADA states that proof is not required and all a person needs to do is self identify as disabled. Its then the company's responsibility to provide reasonable accommodations to give that person equal service.

[AshleyAnn]

I would think there might also be complaints about larger groups and one obviously disabled person. Is there a limit on the number of people that could go with the disable person through the lines? Perhaps the group sizes allowed were too large?

The new DAS pass has a group limit of 6. More than 6 a supervisor must approve the group and they must be relatives or something that makes the larger group size acceptable by Disney standards.

[larig]

I just can't get over the fact that people would actually complain that people who are disabled or have special needs got special treatment. I seriously can't stand people sometimes.

[georgiegirl]

The thing is, not everyone has the same disabilities that you've witnessed. DS1 is on the spectrum. When he was first diagnosed I could breathe and he would have a tantrum that would last an hour or more. Imagine that. Just your day to day must do's and you never know at which minute your child will break down into a tantrum that can last for over an hour--to include self harming, loud screaming, flailing limbs, etc.

When we finally got to a point that I felt we could manage, we went to Disney and I thank God and Disney both for giving us that little red poster card that said we could go to the front of the line. I would NOT have had the energy or the life in me to have endured a wait and I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be my son--locked inside himself unable to communicate how he felt to be waiting. With the new system, I cannot imagine what kind of a tantrum it would have brought on my son--in his bad days of early diagnosis--to approach a much anticipated ride and then to NOT GET ON IT. To turn away and tell a child, incapable of understanding, that he has to wait x amount of time and we'll come back.

I understand that waiting is a part of life. But imagine if life weren't easy for you or your child had no way to communicate and handle what he was feeling/thinking and instead self harmed or screamed for over an hour.



My half brother is pretty much cognitively a 2 year old in the body of a 20 year old. So I understand to some extent. He has major meltdowns that can be dangerous since he's strong. He's non verbal and needs a wheelchair for long distances since his feet are deformed. When he goes to Disney, he wants to ride whatever ride he's fixated on ten times in a row.

I'm not saying people with disabilities should wait in line, but I think there's a middle ground between getting to walk in every ride without waiting at all and what the rest of the visitors have to do. I'm all for a fast pass system where someone from the party can get the disability fast pass and come back later.

[Corie]

I would think there might also be complaints about larger groups and one obviously disabled person. Is there a limit on the number of people that could go with the disable person through the lines? Perhaps the group sizes allowed were too large?


This is actually what bothers me. It seems like everyone and their brother is with the disabled person.

[buddyleebaby]

I don't think it sounds unreasonable, honestly, and I tend to agree with pp that Disney will most likely continue to make arrangements for those who truly *can't* wait.

I've tried to write this post several times and erased it, so suffice it to say that there are many, many people that abused the old system and didn't care a bit how it affected all the kids doing their very best to wait patiently.

[OKKiddo]

I'm not saying people with disabilities should wait in line, but I think there's a middle ground between getting to walk in every ride without waiting at all and what the rest of the visitors have to do. I'm all for a fast pass system where someone from the party can get the disability fast pass and come back later.


When we went to Disneyland with DS1 and we had his card, we still had to wait. But, it was in a separate area (usually quieter and less stimulating--which was great) and the wait was a visible x # of people in front of you--not a snaking line. We had up to 30 minute waits for rides during that time. But, we found that since the environment was darker, quieter (usually cooler) and that he was contained to his stroller--a place that he felt safe and cocooned in-- that the waits were much more easily tolerated.

[niccig]

I just can't get over the fact that people would actually complain that people who are disabled or have special needs got special treatment. I seriously can't stand people sometimes.

I think the change was made because there were people who were disabled who were hired to be part of the group, so the whole group would go to front of line. I have to wonder though how often did that happen. I would hope not often, but Disney is getting bad press about this change, so maybe it was more rampant.

[OKKiddo]

I don't think it sounds unreasonable, honestly, and I tend to agree with pp that Disney will most likely continue to make arrangements for those who truly *can't* wait.

I've tried to write this post several times and erased it, so suffice it to say that there are many, many people that abused the old system and didn't care a bit how it affected all the kids doing their very best to wait patiently.

Exactly. My heart goes out to the mom that is in the shoes that I was when DS1 was first diagnosed and those in similar situations who struggle with day to day life due to a personal disability or a family member with one. Every dang day was a white knuckled day for me. But it was those brief, bright moments (the smile of pure joy on my son's face as he saw his favorite movie character, or his squeal of glee when he thought he was shooting into space in Star Tours) that helped me hang on just one more day.

[o_mom]

I think the change was made because there were people who were disabled who were hired to be part of the group, so the whole group would go to front of line. I have to wonder though how often did that happen. I would hope not often, but Disney is getting bad press about this change, so maybe it was more rampant.

I think more common than hiring someone was just bringing a disabled friend/relative as a PP mentioned someone in their family did.

I don't know what the right answer is since Disney is somewhat restricted on being able to crack down on cheaters. It appears this is basically a move to make it less desirable by taking away the features that were well beyond what non-disabled guests could do (such as riding top tier rides multiple times in a row with no wait as quoted in one of the articles) but they may have gone too far the other way.

It really sucks for those who will have a more difficult time with this system or who really do need some of those features. I think there will be some tweaks and changes as they figure out the right balance.

[123LuckyMom]

I don't think this new system is going to stop those who abused the old system.

The limit for those accompanying people with a GAC was always 6. If the cast members chose, they could let more people go. That remains the same. In addition, the GAC did not automatically result in a person and his or her party not having to wait in line. Most rides had mainstreamed lines. That means you wait in the regular line until you get to a certain point and only then get a special accommodation. This will remain the same for those in wheelchairs or scooters. For rides where the lines were not accessible, there were separate entrances. Just because you used that entrance didn't mean you got on faster. Sometimes (I would say for us, it was on two rides, Small World, and-- honestly I can't remember another, but I'm sure there was one) you did get to walk on pretty quickly, but that was also true of the regular line. Other people waited for ten minutes, and we waited for five.

The only people who got to walk on to rides instantly in the old system (the GAC) were those who needed to do so to accommodate their particular disability. Those people would be the same people who would now request a DAS and get a photo pass. If people were unethical enough to claim to have a disability they didn't have and request accommodation they didn't need under the old system, I don't see how anything would stop them from doing the same under the new system. In fact, I think the new system will be more attractive to the unethical, because it will be super easy for them to run around the park getting the equivalent of a Fastpass for every ride.

For those who truly have a disability, this system really could be onerous, because it requires a lot of extra travel. In Fantasyland it might not be a big deal, but think of rides like Thunder Mountain Railroad or Splash Mountain. In fact, there are many rides among the parks that are a bit of a walk and are removed from all but one additional ride that is also remote (Rock'n Rollercoaster and Tower of Terror, for example.)

I know it can be hard to wait in line and see others walking right on, but that will still happen when those with DASs come back at the appointed time. The only people who will be further inconvenienced by this new system are the disabled, and that's terrible!!!

I really would rather a million people unethically take advantage of a system that makes life a little easier and more joyful for those with disabilities and their families than that even one such family fails to get the accommodations they need. I KNOW that if you asked any of those families if they would gladly stand in line for several hours at every single ride if their child (or spouse, or sibling) could be relieved if their disability, they gladly, joyfully, gratefully would.

Those of us waiting in the long line while others get right on really should spend that time counting our blessings, grateful that we don't have that need, and happy that those folks have that right.

Barring a way to determine who actually has a disability and who does not, there really is no way to prevent an unethical liar from abusing the system. I just don't see how this new system will prevent abuse, but I do see how it could cause problems for those with the types of disabilities that make it impossible for them to wait in a mainstreamed line.

[Pennylane]

I just read over the policy and it all sounds pretty fair to me. I don't know what else they could possibly do !

Ann

[Pennylane]

For those who truly have a disability, this system really could be onerous, because it requires a lot of extra travel. In Fantasyland it might not be a big deal, but think of rides like Thunder Mountain Railroad or Splash Mountain. In fact, there are many rides among the parks that are a bit of a walk and are removed from all but one additional ride that is also remote (Rock'n Rollercoaster and Tower of Terror, for example.)

.

Does the DAS Cardholder have to be present to obtain a return time at an attraction?
No. Another member of the DAS Cardholder’s travel party may obtain a return time but the DAS Cardholder must board the attraction with his or her party.

Looks like they DAS cardholder doesn't have to make two trips, just another person in their party.

Ann

[Melbel]

The judgmental tone of many of the posts and those who "know" there was widespread abuse is hurtful. I also suffer from a hidden disability. 17 years of undiagnosed Lyme Disease has caused serious damage to my back (three surgeries), knees, hips, SI joints, and facet joints, caused MS like lesions on my brain, and causes profound fatigue. I spend at least 18 hours per 24 hour period in bed. Yet if you looked at me, you would never guess I was disabled. Friends and acquaintances see me pushing through my kids' soccer game or play. They do not see how simple tasks cause even greater fatigue. As I type this now, my knees are on fire because we took the kids to the beach for a couple hours. The new system, plain and simple, will not work for me (and therefore our family). If Disney were to look at our history (generally 1-2 visits per year because we live in FL), the longest we have stayed is 4-5 hours, even though we pay full price for a ticket, because that is the longest I would last. Sitting and standing for prolonged periods cause terrible lower back pain, in addition to the fatigue. The old system at least allowed each child to pick a ride or two at the park.

I could qualify for a disabled parking pass, but refuse to get one because most days I am fine to walk.

I worked odd jobs from age 12 with a first real job at 14. I worked up to 3 jobs at a time to pay my own way through law school. I worked while studying for the bar exam to pay for my own wedding. I am not a malinger or someone trying to work the system, but there are plenty who would be happy to judge because they can not see my disability. I would gladly trade my daily pain, suffering, and fatigue for the privilege of standing in line.

[wellyes]

It seems like this policy change was a result of the Today show undercover report of people selling line-skipping privileges on Craigslist, not generic anger at invisible disabilities

But I do think this lawsuit has stirred up some ugliness that is really unfortunate.

[buddyleebaby]

I think it is hurtful to imply that someone who recognizes that there was widespread abuse of the old system is uninformed or judgemental.
I'm no stranger to hidden disabilities. Our last trip to Disney World was with my mom, who suffers from RA, and my sister, who is my BEST friend, who suffers from RA, scoliosis, degenerative disc disease, endometriosis, among other things. I know very well the things she goes through every day. The pain, the exhaustion, and the looks she gets from people on the days she has to park in a handicapped spot, even with the sticker.
But, she doesn't need to get on Winnie the Pooh before the three year old that has been waiting for 45 minutes, which is exactly what well-meaning cast members at Disney OFFERED to let her do when they saw her looking for a place to park her scooter in order to get on line. (She declined.) It wouldn't have been fair to the families waiting in line OR to the differently-abled patrons who NEEDED those accommodations.

[mommy111]

I don't think the lawsuit has a leg to stand on.
I also think Disney was exceptionally generous in the accommodations that they made to diabled people, way beyond ADA requirements
However: How much wait time do you think gets added to the 45 mins waiting that I have on splash mountain by a disabled family being let in first? 2 mins? 5 mins? So basically, people are complaining not because they have to wait a whole lot longer but because other people have to wait less? Maybe we should stop at this and think about what this says about us as a society. Do we seriously have to take this benefit away from people with disabilities just because a few wack jobs without disabilities are abusing it? If we see someone with a disability boarding, why not just make that a teaching moment for our kids about how people with and without visible disabilities need to be accommodated and considered.

[Melbel]

I think it is hurtful to imply that someone who recognizes that there was widespread abuse of the old system is uninformed or judgemental.
I'm no stranger to hidden disabilities. Our last trip to Disney World was with my mom, who suffers from RA, and my sister, who is my BEST friend, who suffers from RA, scoliosis, degenerative disc disease, endometriosis, among other things. I know very well the things she goes through every day. The pain, the exhaustion, and the looks she gets from people on the days she has to park in a handicapped spot, even with the sticker.
But, she doesn't need to get on Winnie the Pooh before the three year old that has been waiting for 45 minutes, which is exactly what well-meaning cast members at Disney OFFERED to let her do when they saw her looking for a place to park her scooter in order to get on line. (She declined.) It wouldn't have been fair to the families waiting in line OR to the differently-abled patrons who NEEDED those accommodations.

How exactly does this isolated anecdote prove widespread abuse? It sounds like cast members were simply being courteous and accommodating consistent with company policy. Did your mom wait in the 45 minute line then? Should her limitations and abilities be imputed on others?

With all due respect, knowing someone (even a close someone) with a disability is not the same as living with it every day. Even some of my closest well intentioned friends and family members do not truly "get it."

[lalasmama]

I don't think the lawsuit has a leg to stand on.
I also think Disney was exceptionally generous in the accommodations that they made to diabled people, way beyond ADA requirements
However: How much wait time do you think gets added to the 45 mins waiting that I have on splash mountain by a disabled family being let in first? 2 mins? 5 mins? So basically, people are complaining not because they have to wait a whole lot longer but because other people have to wait less? Maybe we should stop at this and think about what this says about us as a society. Do we seriously have to take this benefit away from people with disabilities just because a few wack jobs without disabilities are abusing it? If we see someone with a disability boarding, why not just make that a teaching moment for our kids about how people with and without visible disabilities need to be accommodated and considered.

Well, at Disneyland, I can tell you that the wheelchair/GAC/DAS line is commonly about a 45-60 minute wait, so I don't believe it's adding much time to any of the able-bodied lines... A CM told me they "pad" the standby times to account for the long waits from the GAC/DAS line. Similar ideas on Pirates and It's a Small World. Any water ride is going to have a longer wait for the GAC/DAS line, generally, because of the evacuation plans--only certain numbers can be on the ride at once, no matter what the disability may be.

[Melbel]

It seems like this policy change was a result of the Today show undercover report of people selling line-skipping privileges on Craigslist, not generic anger at invisible disabilities

But I do think this lawsuit has stirred up some ugliness that is really unfortunate.

I think you are absolutely right. The comments on the stories were ugly and disturbing (assuming abuse if they could not see an obvious disability).

As for the lawsuit, I cannot think of a plausible cause of action off the top of my head. I would be curious to read the complaint. We do have tickets that do not expire (paid for before they changed the policy). Our remedy would to be to seek a refund though.

[buddyleebaby]

How exactly does this isolated anecdote prove widespread abuse? It sounds like cast members were simply being courteous and accommodating consistent with company policy. Did your mom wait in the 45 minute line then? Should her limitations and abilities be imputed on others?

With all due respect, knowing someone (even a close someone) with a disability is not the same as living with it every day. Even some of my closest well intentioned friends and family members do not truly "get it."

I wasn't using it as an example of widespread abuse. I was using it to demonstrate the fact that I am not going around accusing people of faking it because I can't *see* what's "wrong" with them, as you seemed to be implying people who "knew" there was abuse of the system must be doing. I don't need education on hidden diseases, and while you're right I may never "get it" to the extent that my sister does, my experience with my sister is far more likely to help me "get it" than a lecture on the internet from someone who doesn't know me, my family, or what *our* personal experience has been.
Disney has, IMO, always been very, very accommodating to guests with disabilities, which is what I was trying to demonstrate above. If *they* felt their old system was being abused, and needed reform, and was affecting their ability to serve their guests, disabled and otherwise, then I am going to trust them on that and hope that the new system does a better job.

[mommy111]

Well, at Disneyland, I can tell you that the wheelchair/GAC/DAS line is commonly about a 45-60 minute wait, so I don't believe it's adding much time to any of the able-bodied lines... A CM told me they "pad" the standby times to account for the long waits from the GAC/DAS line. Similar ideas on Pirates and It's a Small World. Any water ride is going to have a longer wait for the GAC/DAS line, generally, because of the evacuation plans--only certain numbers can be on the ride at once, no matter what the disability may be.
Exactly, so its no great increase in wait time for people in the regular line, and a huge deal for someone with a diability. And the 6 people accompanying limit seems like a typical 4 person family with grandparents, so I don't think that is an unreasonable number

[Melbel]

I wasn't using it as an example of widespread abuse. I was using it to demonstrate the fact that I am not going around accusing people of faking it because I can't *see* what's "wrong" with them, as you seemed to be implying people who "knew" there was abuse of the system must be doing. I don't need education on hidden diseases, and while you're right I may never "get it" to the extent that my sister does, my experience with my sister is far more likely to help me "get it" than a lecture on the internet from someone who doesn't know me, my family, or what *our* personal experience has been.
Disney has, IMO, always been very, very accommodating to guests with disabilities, which is what I was trying to demonstrate above. If *they* felt their old system was being abused, and needed reform, and was affecting their ability to serve their guests, disabled and otherwise, then I am going to trust them on that and hope that the new system does a better job.

I was not trying to argue with you. You seemed to infer that it would have been wrong of your mom if she had decided to ride on Winnie the Pooh before a child who had waited in line, even though she was disabled. It appears that you did not approve of the old rules on disability regardless of whether a person was faking or not.

Up thread you state "there are many, many people that abused the old system and didn't care a bit how it affected all the kids doing their very best to wait patiently." I was simply asking the extent of your knowledge. You have now answered my question above - you are simply assuming there were "many, many, people" abusing the system and are trusting Disney. I think it would be difficult to ascertain the scope of abuse without the ability to obtain medical records.

[123LuckyMom]

I wasn't using it as an example of widespread abuse. I was using it to demonstrate the fact that I am not going around accusing people of faking it because I can't *see* what's "wrong" with them, as you seemed to be implying people who "knew" there was abuse of the system must be doing. I don't need education on hidden diseases, and while you're right I may never "get it" to the extent that my sister does, my experience with my sister is far more likely to help me "get it" than a lecture on the internet from someone who doesn't know me, my family, or what *our* personal experience has been.
Disney has, IMO, always been very, very accommodating to guests with disabilities, which is what I was trying to demonstrate above. If *they* felt their old system was being abused, and needed reform, and was affecting their ability to serve their guests, disabled and otherwise, then I am going to trust them on that and hope that the new system does a better job.

I suspect, though I have no proof at all, that this is a case with Disney of looking like they're addressing a rare problem that is PERCEIVED by the general public to be a big one. I suspect the recent media reports on system abuses created a perception of widespread abuse, and Disney is trying to make people think they are addressing the problem. I don't think the system was as widely abused as most people think, and I also believe this change fits into Disney's trend of keeping track of patrons so they can reduce waits generally (if that is indeed the goal of the new Fastpass + system.) honestly, I just don't see how this change will, in fact, reduce abuses. In assessing who gets the passes and how many guests the person with the pass can have in his or her party, the system is unchanged.

[buddyleebaby]

I was not trying to argue with you. You seemed to infer that it would have been wrong of your mom if she had decided to ride on Winnie the Pooh before a child who had waited in line, even though she was disabled. It appears that you did not approve of the old rules on disability regardless of whether a person was faking or not.

Up thread you state "there are many, many people that abused the old system and didn't care a bit how it affected all the kids doing their very best to wait patiently." I was simply asking the extent of your knowledge. You have now answered my question above - you are simply assuming there were "many, many, people" abusing the system and are trusting Disney. I think it would be difficult to ascertain the scope of abuse without the ability to obtain medical records.




Well, then, imagine how Disney must feel. ; )

The truth of the matter is that Disney is taking everyone on their word. Every single person.

They tried to be accommodating to my sister (not my mom), who did not personally need such accommodations. She was 25 years old at the time and does not usually look sick, and they tried to do the best they could for her. Based on real life experience, she would have been able to skip the lines simply by renting a scooter for the day, had she not declined. That doesn't mean I think Disney was wrong for offering, but it does mean I do see how easy it might have been for others to play the system, and yes, I wholeheartedly believe abuse was happening, often, for Disney to decide to change their rules. I don't think somewhere that was so accommodating would decide overnight that they didn't want to be anymore, as the lawsuit alleges. I also believe Disney is *trying* to make things better for their truly disabled guests. Whether or not they will be successful, I don't know, and that makes me sad for the kids caught in the middle.

[BunnyBee]

If it weren't actually a problem that Disney knew about and the news stories were total hype, why would they have spent money revamping the system? They could've put out a blanket statement that it was being looked into and gone on with the status quo. They were probably well aware of all the ways people conned the old system and had to revamp it for FP+'s implementation. If this reduces the people abusing the system, the people who really need it will get through more efficiently. It, like the FP system, will be tweaked based on feedback and research, which Disney spends zillions of dollars analyzing.

The scummy worms who thought up that tour business and the people who paid for it are the bad guys here. :(

[Melbel]

Well, then, imagine how Disney must feel. ; )

The truth of the matter is that Disney is taking everyone on their word. Every single person.

They tried to be accommodating to my sister (not my mom), who did not personally need such accommodations. She was 25 years old at the time and does not usually look sick, and they tried to do the best they could for her. Based on real life experience, she would have been able to skip the lines simply by renting a scooter for the day, had she not declined. That doesn't mean I think Disney was wrong for offering, but it does mean I do see how easy it might have been for others to play the system, and yes, I wholeheartedly believe abuse was happening, often, for Disney to decide to change their rules. I don't think somewhere that was so accommodating would decide overnight that they didn't want to be anymore, as the lawsuit alleges. I also believe Disney is *trying* to make things better for their truly disabled guests. Whether or not they will be successful, I don't know, and that makes me sad for the kids caught in the middle.

FYI, you do not have to use a scooter to get disability privileges at Disney. There are many children and adults who have hidden disabilities too that do not involve the ability to walk.

I agree with the prior posters who stated that there was abuse, but that the perceived abuse was higher than the actual abuse. It became a PR issue.

We did not use our passes last winter because of the new program no longer meets my physical needs. I feel particularly bad for my 5 year old who will now miss out on the Disney experience.

[123LuckyMom]

Also, as I keep stating, having a scooter, wheelchair, GAC, doesn't necessarily get you straight into the ride! In fact, those with scooters usually have to park their scooters and either wait standing or transfer to a wheelchair and wait in a wheelchair. Unless you specifically request that your disability requires you to avoid waits. You wait with everyone else. That was the case under the old system AND will be the case under the new system. The ONLY change, seemingly, is the photo badge and the return pass for those whose disabilities require that they not wait. Guests with mobility issues will wait in mainstreamed lines as they did under the old policy.

[buddyleebaby]

FYI, you do not have to use a scooter to get disability privileges at Disney. There are many children and adults who have hidden disabilities too that do not involve the ability to walk.

I agree with the prior posters who stated that there was abuse, but that the perceived abuse was higher than the actual abuse. It became a PR issue.

We did not use our passes last winter because of the new program no longer meets my physical needs. I feel particularly bad for my 5 year old who will now miss out on the Disney experience.

FYI? Seriously? Please show me where I said that you needed to rent a scooter to get disability privileges. Please tell me where I said all hidden disabilities involve the ability to walk.
My whole point was that Disney was HUGELY accommodating to my sister without knowing her medical history/issues, based on a rented scooter. And although she happens to actually have painful medical issues, it would have been easy for someone who did NOT to get the same treatment. And that is not fair to those who need the accommodations, like a pp's child.
I can't imagine, based on your thoughts in this thread, that you really think it's not a big deal for an autistic child, or a teen with an auto-immune disorder, or an adult with stage 4 prostate cancer to have to wait in line behind one, two, three, 15 others abusing the system. I understand that you just do not believe that abuse of GACs was messing up the system. I do. And apparently, Disney does, because they saw SOMETHING happening, and are trying to fix it.
Now, it's possible they've made it worse. Maybe the changes will be a huge failure and they'll have to try something else. I don't know, and I'm not saying I do. I'm just saying I believe there was a legitimate reason for the change and not just a knee-jerk reaction to an article in the NY Times.
That doesn't mean I don't understand various disabilities and special needs as you seem intent on saying. I did not see one single person in this thread begrudge a disabled person who needs special accommodations the opportunity to have them. I did not see one single person declare that you can see all disabilities. What I have seen is people concerned that the old system allowed for a lot of misuse, and that is a legitimate concern, whether you share it or not. Can I prove to you that abuse was widespread? No. But I think people's personal experiences (not just my own) AND the fact that Disney decided the program needed to be retooled, speaks to the fact that it was. I do not believe they would bother doing all this for a PR move. I don't think the majority of the population probably even knows about the changes.
I am sorry for your five year old as well. Her and all the other kids caught in the middle as they try and sort things out. I said that earlier. I am also sorry the new system doesn't work for your needs and hope that they can work with you on an individual basis when and if you decide you want to go back. But I don't think Disney is the enemy. I think they're doing the best they can.

[crayonblue]

I'm not really getting all the angst over this and the (IMO) stupid lawsuit. Special treatment at Disney (or anywhere!) isn't a right. They do have to comply with the basics for the disabled but people demanding special treatment is extremely entitled. And yes, we went to DisneyWorld with our terminally ill daughter who was in a pediatric wheelchair. We have very special memories of how wonderfully the staff treated her and us. Especially when Pooh knelt down and held her hand.

I HAVE been to theme parks with people who abused the system. Who signed up for scooters, got disabled passes and skipped lines when they were perfectly capable of walking. So if I've been witness to it directly at least 5 times, I do think abuse of the system is rampant.

[niccig]

. Do we seriously have to take this benefit away from people with disabilities just because a few wack jobs without disabilities are abusing it? If we see someone with a disability boarding, why not just make that a teaching moment for our kids about how people with and without visible disabilities need to be accommodated and considered.

I agree. I wonder if there was a lot of abuse going on or has it been blown out of proportion. And as other pointed out, the new system can be abused too. I don't think Disney can come up with a system that some people may take advantage of, but many people need.

[ckso]

This thread have been a true eye-opening for me. I think it's great that Disney (in the past) have allowed a disabled person to go to the front of the line but then i guess I didn't realize how easy it is for people to abuse the system. If Disney is NOT allowed to ask for proof of disability and all a person has to do is SAY they are disabled, then I would be surprised that the abuse is not rampant. I would guess that the abuse is truly a big problem and not a perceived one.

I go to disneyland pretty regularly now that I have an annual pass and honestly, we can't deal with long lines simply because I have 2 young kids. So I guess I never paid attention enough to notice whether someone abuses the system or not.

Too bad Disney can't somehow confirm a disability though. It's a shame that they have to change a great policy because of the abusers. Maybe a simple form that doesn't ask for the reason/type of disability but just a confirmation signed by the doctor to say the person is disabled and cannot wait in lines? Or something to that affect? When I needed my gym membership suspended when i couldn't work out any more due to my pregnancy/C-section, they required a doctor's note. Can't Disney request for something similiar??

[Pennylane]

Too bad Disney can't somehow confirm a disability though. It's a shame that they have to change a great policy because of the abusers. Maybe a simple form that doesn't ask for the reason/type of disability but just a confirmation signed by the doctor to say the person is disabled and cannot wait in lines? Or something to that affect? When I needed my gym membership suspended when i couldn't work out any more due to my pregnancy/C-section, they required a doctor's note. Can't Disney request for something similiar??

This is the same thing I was thinking too. You need proof to get a handicap parking permit and a variety of other things, so why can't Disney require some type of proof?

Ann

[wellyes]

Even if it was allowed to, I don't think Disney wants to get in the business of having its employees say no to a family because they don't have the right paperwork.

[Melbel]

FYI? Seriously? Please show me where I said that you needed to rent a scooter to get disability privileges. Please tell me where I said all hidden disabilities involve the ability to walk.
My whole point was that Disney was HUGELY accommodating to my sister without knowing her medical history/issues, based on a rented scooter. And although she happens to actually have painful medical issues, it would have been easy for someone who did NOT to get the same treatment. And that is not fair to those who need the accommodations, like a pp's child.
I can't imagine, based on your thoughts in this thread, that you really think it's not a big deal for an autistic child, or a teen with an auto-immune disorder, or an adult with stage 4 prostate cancer to have to wait in line behind one, two, three, 15 others abusing the system. I understand that you just do not believe that abuse of GACs was messing up the system. I do. And apparently, Disney does, because they saw SOMETHING happening, and are trying to fix it.
Now, it's possible they've made it worse. Maybe the changes will be a huge failure and they'll have to try something else. I don't know, and I'm not saying I do. I'm just saying I believe there was a legitimate reason for the change and not just a knee-jerk reaction to an article in the NY Times.
That doesn't mean I don't understand various disabilities and special needs as you seem intent on saying. I did not see one single person in this thread begrudge a disabled person who needs special accommodations the opportunity to have them. I did not see one single person declare that you can see all disabilities. What I have seen is people concerned that the old system allowed for a lot of misuse, and that is a legitimate concern, whether you share it or not. Can I prove to you that abuse was widespread? No. But I think people's personal experiences (not just my own) AND the fact that Disney decided the program needed to be retooled, speaks to the fact that it was. I do not believe they would bother doing all this for a PR move. I don't think the majority of the population probably even knows about the changes.
I am sorry for your five year old as well. Her and all the other kids caught in the middle as they try and sort things out. I said that earlier. I am also sorry the new system doesn't work for your needs and hope that they can work with you on an individual basis when and if you decide you want to go back. But I don't think Disney is the enemy. I think they're doing the best they can.

I simply misunderstood what you meant by this quote: "Based on real life experience, she would have been able to skip the lines simply by renting a scooter for the day". In any event, she did not skip the line and there was no abuse.

To the extent there was abuse, it was going on for many years, but Disney only decided to "fix" the problem AFTER the bad publicity. The new system does nothing to curb abuse. It is still an honor system as to who has a disability. I do not think people's personal experiences prove abuse, because in the vast majority of cases such experience is built upon observations/presumptions (people in the public are not privy to medical records). I do not think Disney is the enemy, and never stated as such. Likewise, I do not think there is a legal duty to use the prior system to accommodate those with disabilities. There were many posts in the thread about how the new system is fair and works just fine. I was providing personal experience to show that the new rules do not work well for all disabilities. For what it is worth, with the old system, you did not go to the front of the line. You were permitted to wait in a shorter line. This system worked better for our family because I did not have to stand for prolonged periods (hard on my back) and we could squeeze more in during our very limited stay (due to my fatigue).

It is unfortunate that those who abused the system (and did so in a highly visible way after the story broke) caused those with true disabilities additional hardship and/or preventing them from going to the park altogether. I will check into Disney's accommodations once the temperatures cool next November (our son still has heat intolerance from Lyme Disease).

I wonder if Disney could curb group abuse (a larger number of people getting privileges for one disabled person) by requiring proof of familial relation or guardianship.

ETA: I would be happy to provide proof of disability.

[wellyes]

I wonder if Disney could curb group abuse (a larger number of people getting privileges for one disabled person) by requiring proof of familial relation or guardianship.

I don't think that would work, if a kid wants to ride with her scout troop, that's allowed.

There were many posts in the thread about how the new system is fair and works just fine. I was providing personal experience to show that the new rules do not work well for all disabilities.

"Fair" and "works well for all disabilities" aren't the same thing. Unfortunately the old system didn't accomodate all disabilities either.

[mommy111]

This is the same thing I was thinking too. You need proof to get a handicap parking permit and a variety of other things, so why can't Disney require some type of proof?

Ann

That would seem like a reasonable solution. Again, I have no idea how hard it is to get these certificates from a doc or maybe present a diability license

[TwinFoxes]

This is the same thing I was thinking too. You need proof to get a handicap parking permit and a variety of other things, so why can't Disney require some type of proof?



But disabled parking is controlled by the state.


Even if it was allowed to, I don't think Disney wants to get in the business of having its employees say no to a family because they don't have the right paperwork.

:yeahthat: They don't even ask for proof of age for discount kids rates AFAIK.

[BunnyBee]

Requiring proof of guardianship or familial relation would be unfair to (teen, adult) guests with disabilities going with friends. The new FP+ and Magic Bands have such sophisticated tracking technologies that it wouldn't surprise me if the GAC info is tracked through them as well. The system could look for red flags such as "Bob" using his GAC pass every day to get in different groups of 6. The system would flag potential fraud which could be looked into by security/management.

Surely the tour agencies aren't using children! Yuck! I wouldn't put it past individual parents (like the ones who raise money for non-sick kids), but the paying groups? That's beyond.

[ckso]

Even if it was allowed to, I don't think Disney wants to get in the business of having its employees say no to a family because they don't have the right paperwork.

I don't think that would be an issue. CM say no for all sorts of things if it's not accordance to their policy or procedure.


That would seem like a reasonable solution. Again, I have no idea how hard it is to get these certificates from a doc or maybe present a diability license

For someone with a true disability then it would be very easy to get a doctor's note or have them sign a simple form stating this. The form doesn't have to indicate WHY to protect the person's privacy but if a doctor feels that the person have a medical reason to not be able to wait in long lines or walk back for the fastpass that should be good enough for Disney. But if the doctor refuses to sign, then obviously that person doesn't qualify to benefit from disability accommodations.

[speo]

Please correct me ... But I wonder if Disney or other companies are legally allowed to ask for proof of disability.

I read an article a month ago about how so many more people are bringing dogs into stores in recent years. Anecdotally, I can attest to this. I see many dogs in Target and TJs. I never saw this before. Anyways, the point is that the laws pertaining to working/assistance dogs for those with disabilities are so broad in CA that companies cannot verify if the animal is a pet or working dog. If a company cannot ask for verification about whether a dog is needed, then perhaps they can't ask about whether a person is disabled.

[123LuckyMom]

Please correct me ... But I wonder if Disney or other companies are legally allowed to ask for proof of disability.

I read an article a month ago about how so many more people are bringing dogs into stores in recent years. Anecdotally, I can attest to this. I see many dogs in Target and TJs. I never saw this before. Anyways, the point is that the laws pertaining to working/assistance dogs for those with disabilities are so broad in CA that companies cannot verify if the animal is a pet or working dog. If a company cannot ask for verification about whether a dog is needed, then perhaps they can't ask about whether a person is disabled.

You are right. Disney is legally barred from asking for proof of disability. That is why they cannot stop those determined to abuse the system. All they can do is make the accommodations less appealing so that people will not want to take advantage. In doing so, they make the system more difficult to manage for truly disabled people.

This new system doesn't change anything for mobility impaired guests (like folks who need to use scooters or wheelchairs), only for those who cannot cope with wait times (or claim they cannot). Imagine an autistic child who cannot cope with crowds, enclosed spaces, and frustration. That child really needs to arrive at a ride and get in quickly or else wait in a space that is NOT the regular line. That child previously would have waited outside of the regular line for a shorter amount of time. Disney's goal would be to get that child on to the ride as soon as possible. Now, that child will get there, have to leave, and have to find something else to do until the time on the pass. That is a recipe for disaster for a child whose problem really is waiting and coping with crowds, don't you think?

Yes, another person from the party can get the pass, but the rules state that you cannot get the pass until you have completed the ride for which you got the last pass. Therefore there will be no way for that child to get on any ride immediately unless that ride has no wait time. This makes that person's wait time absolutely equivalent to the wait time of any other child in the park. All it does is let them wait outside of the line. This is an accommodation, but it's not enough of an accommodation, I would guess, to enable that child and his or her family to be able to cope, let alone enjoy themselves.

As the happiest place on earth, I think Disney tries very hard to be a happy place for all it's guests, and I believe it should (and strives to) go above and beyond to bring joy to disabled guests who, let's face it, could really use that Disney magic. This is a step backward in achieving that goal. Also, I truly do not think it will stop abuses. Perhaps if I were convinced that it would I would feel differently. A neuro typical person could just wait on another line in between the two rides for which he or she got a pass since the passes aren't timed. Therefore, it's still a boon to an accommodations abuser. The child who truly cannot cope with the line will not be able to do that. For that child, this new system is a penalty.

[wellyes]

Do you approve of the lawsuit, then? Or would you propose a different solution?
Is the only thing to do at Disney go on rides? I thought there were lots of things to do-but- I haven't been, personally.

[123LuckyMom]

Do you approve of the lawsuit, then? Or would you propose a different solution?
Is the only thing to do at Disney go on rides? I thought there were lots of things to do-but- I haven't been, personally.

No. I don't think a lawsuit is the answer. I don't think Disney is REQUIRED by law to make the kind of accommodations they do. I'm a shareholder, though, and I wrote a letter expressing my concerns. I doubt it will do much, but if they got thousands of letters, it might.

[wellyes]

No. I don't think a lawsuit is the answer. I don't think Disney is REQUIRED by law to make the kind of accommodations they do. I'm a shareholder, though, and I wrote a letter expressing my concerns. I doubt it will do much, but if they got thousands of letters, it might.

The general reaction I have seen online from this change is positive- it probably pleases more of its customers than it frustrates.
Not saying that is fair, but, it probably does factor into the equation.

[123LuckyMom]

The general reaction I have seen online from this change is positive- it probably pleases more of its customers than it frustrates.
Not saying that is fair, but, it probably does factor into the equation.

As I said up thread, that's the sole reason I believe they are making the change, to appease able bodied visitors who believe (mistakenly, in my opinion) that the system is unfair. I personally find it highly reprehensible that anyone would complain about being inconvenienced so very slightly by the needs of a person with a disability.

[wellyes]

As I said up thread, that's the sole reason I believe they are making the change, to appease able bodied visitors who believe (mistakenly, in my opinion) that the system is unfair. I personally find it highly reprehensible that anyone would complain about being inconvenienced so very slightly by the needs of a person with a disability.

I don't know of anyone who thinks the old system was unfair to persons with disabilities.

[123LuckyMom]

I don't know of anyone who thinks the old system was unfair to persons with disabilities.

I meant that they thought it was unfair to able bodied guests that disabled people got "special privileges."

[ckso]

As I said up thread, that's the sole reason I believe they are making the change, to appease able bodied visitors who believe (mistakenly, in my opinion) that the system is unfair. I personally find it highly reprehensible that anyone would complain about being inconvenienced so very slightly by the needs of a person with a disability.


I don't know of anyone who thinks the old system was unfair to persons with disabilities.

I agree. The think the issue is the abuse. I don't think it has to do with Disney appeasing able bodied visitors who is upset that a disabled person got ahead of the line. But that they are trying to come up with a way to discourage able bodied visitors who abuse the system and pretending to be disabled when they are not.

[TwinFoxes]

Please correct me ... But I wonder if Disney or other companies are legally allowed to ask for proof of disability.

I read an article a month ago about how so many more people are bringing dogs into stores in recent years. Anecdotally, I can attest to this. I see many dogs in Target and TJs. I never saw this before. Anyways, the point is that the laws pertaining to working/assistance dogs for those with disabilities are so broad in CA that companies cannot verify if the animal is a pet or working dog. If a company cannot ask for verification about whether a dog is needed, then perhaps they can't ask about whether a person is disabled.

In LA, people bring there dogs everywhere. I took my dog to Bloomies once. People aren't claiming they have disabilities, it's just an LA thing. Maybe it is spreading?

Anyhow, I think if you or your DC can't visit Disney with the new restrictions, you should call guest relations, I bet they accommodate you. Also, I think it will stop all but the most determined scofflaws...and I think the percentage of the MILLIONS of people who visit Disney who are scofflaws is miniscule.

[speo]

In LA, people bring there dogs everywhere. I took my dog to Bloomies once. People aren't claiming they have disabilities, it's just an LA thing. Maybe it is spreading?

Oh, I don't think people are claiming they have disabilities and therefore need a dog. From the article, it is that all dogs are covered under the umbrella of assistance dogs in a way. Stores cannot ask people if their dogs are working and therefore needed. Many stores don't want the dogs, but they can't legally ask them to leave. And then it is a positive feedback loop. Store can't do anything, more dogs ... I don't think anyone is really trying to get away with anything. It is just what is happening.

[wellyes]

I meant that they thought it was unfair to able bodied guests that disabled people got "special privileges."

No, I don't think that is the case at all. It is abuse of the system - blatant, open, advertising publicly and getting enough customers to sustain a business - that is at issue.

[123LuckyMom]

No, I don't think that is the case at all. It is abuse of the system - blatant, open, advertising publicly and getting enough customers to sustain a business - that is at issue.

I understand that they are saying it's due to abuse, but I see no way in which the new policy addresses abuse or will reduce it. People who were willing to lie before will lie now. Able bodied people who can wait on line for a ride in between the rides with passes will walk right on to 2/3 of the rides, so the new policy will be attractive to them. It's slightly less attractive to abusers than the old system, but not much less.

Only disabled folks who cannot endure waits will have a more difficult time. How does this new policy dissuade abuse? I just don't see it. Therefore, I don't buy that explanation. I think that is the explanation Disney is using so that Disney APPEARS to be doing something to curb abuse. I think they feel the need to do that due to negative publicity and negative public perception. The only way to curb abuse is to require proof of disability. They cannot do that under the current law, so all they can do is make it LOOK like they're doing something.

If someone could give a good example of how the new system will actually curb abuse, I'd certainly be open to changing my opinion. Right now, I can only see how it will place a stumbling block in the way of disabled people, not how it will be significantly less attractive to abusers.

[wellyes]

I don't think it's a "boon" to abusers. It's more inconvenient for anyone who uses it. That's a deterrent. It also adds a layer of shaming. It's one thing to justify to oneself 'we're joining this random person on her Disney trip!' while paying for that, it's another to walk around with some random person's special access card to map out rides to take during different time intervals. Or maybe it won't make a difference. Who knows. It's up to Disney.

The main thing I took issue with was the statement, in regards to the old system being unfair: "I meant that they thought it was unfair to able bodied guests that disabled people got "special privileges." As though non-disabled visitors were really annoyed that disabled guests got privileges at all. I don't think that's true, and I also think it is pretty insulting.

[larig]

I don't think it's a "boon" to abusers. It's more inconvenient for anyone who uses it. That's a deterrent. It also adds a layer of shaming. It's one thing to justify to oneself 'we're joining this random person on her Disney trip!' while paying for that, it's another to walk around with some random person's special access card to map out rides to take during different time intervals. Or maybe it won't make a difference. Who knows. It's up to Disney.

The main thing I took issue with was the statement, in regards to the old system being unfair: "I meant that they thought it was unfair to able bodied guests that disabled people got "special privileges." As though non-disabled visitors were really annoyed that disabled guests got privileges at all. I don't think that's true, and I also think it is pretty insulting.

It may be insulting to you, but if you read enough comments on enough boards about this stuff, you'll see that she's right. There ARE people bitching about the "fairness" of the accommodations.
read the comments, for example, at squidalicious.com (a mother of a kiddo with autism's blog) when the changes were first announced (this is pre-lawsuit). Here's just a sample of some of the delightful posts. http://www.squidalicious.com/2013/09/please-disneyland-do-right-by-your.html


What you want is PREFERENTIAL access to rides for your child, not an ADA-mandated accommodation.


Most average kids get experience Disney once or twice a year (if they are lucky) and then have to wait in 90-120 minute lines. This only allows for a 4-5 rides in a day for most families. What is the fairness for them? I've been to Disney and seen a conga line at the guest services office every time. And when you are in line and seeing 20 people in a group with one grandmother in a wheelchair cutting in line, it get's frustrating.


While I have sympathy for the families of autistic children, letting them jump to the front of every line, and allowing them to ride the same ride repeatedly while others continue to wait is just wrong, IMO. If a child can't deal well with lines, crowds, heat and noise, a hot, crowded, noisy theme park with long lines doesn't seem like a very good choice.

The new process seems to be a fair compromise, allowing autistic children to still ride without waiting in long lines, while not making other children wait longer just to give them front of the line access.

No one is taking Disney away from these kids, unless the parents, some of whom appear to be so spoiled with something that was never supposed to be front of the line access, decide that they don't want to wait the same amount of time as everyone else.

In the final analysis, autistic kids are no more special than any other kids.



Lucky you, you got what you wanted - NT kids will continue to wait longer for rides so that Leo can skip to the front of the line with no wait and ride as many times as he wants.

They might as well not even change the program, because they're going to allow the most egregious abuses to continue.

As a mom of a kid affected by this stuff it is tremendously hurtful to read this crap.

[California]

One thing I appreciate about this board is that we don't attract all the hurtful comments you can find on many blogs and news articles. I hate reading those and don't have a child affected by this stuff, I can only imagine how it feels to read it if it feels like it could be directed at your own family.

Are there always crowds, year round, at Disneyworld? At Disneyland in LA during the off season, especially midweek, plenty of rides have very short lines and even the popular ones aren't that crowded. Is that not ever the case at Disneyworld?

[wellyes]

As a mom of a kid affected by this stuff it is tremendously hurtful to read this crap.

I'm sorry to hear that. I wouldn't take it seriously. Looking at that link, it appears you have found one person named Sandee and another named BeeGee who made those comments. Who went to a blog about an autistic child to make those comments, no less. What peaches they must be. I dunno. I can find thousands of internet comments about how Obama is a secret Muslim plotting against the US. If I took that to be the typical belief of people who voted against him, I would despair for this world.

[123LuckyMom]

Wellyes, I'm so sorry if my statement offended you. I assure you that it was not directed at you or anyone else on this board, really. I certainly have read and heard comments, though, about people being disturbed by seeing others with no apparent disability being allowed to walk straight on to a ride while they and their children need to wait. I do think there are people who see it as unfair, especially if they also believe those people are faking or receiving an unnecessary accommodation.

I also have seen a lot of misconceptions about what really happens when you have a GAC. An elderly person in a wheelchair accompanied by a huge extended family WOULD NOT walk right on to a ride under the old system ( or the new). Almost all the lines are mainstreamed for those whose disabilities involve mobility issues. Sometimes the wait for those folks is longer, because when they get to the part where they split from the regular line, they often have to wait quite a while as those who were behind them board. The fact that people think everyone in a scooter or a wheelchair is getting special privileges does suggest that there is some resentment out there.

Heck, I've read some pretty vitriolic stuff about families who use strollers at Disney and how they should be banned! Some people really do place themselves above all others. Not all people do, though, and as a whole, on this board, I think we are a group of pretty helpful, well-intentioned, and decent people. I wasn't trying to criticize any of us.

This new system won't be problematic for me or anyone I know, but I do see how it could be a real step backward for many. I don't believe in taking steps backward. I'm sad that Disney is creating a less accommodating system, especially since I am not seeing how it would curb abuse significantly. Perhaps Disney does and has just not shared that information. In the absence of that explanation, though, I am ascribing a motive to Disney's behavior that is different than the one they are claiming. In general, I feel that when there is a perception (or misperception) of danger, or unfairness, or whatever that may be harming a company's image, they strive to create the perception that they have addressed the problem, even if all they have done is make things more complicated unnecessarily. I don't know that this is what Disney is doing, but I have my suspicions. I am absolutely willing to change my mind as time goes on. I think abusing a system meant to aid those with disabilities is reprehensible. I am 100% in favor of curbing abuses. I just don't want to see that happen by making the system problematic for those who need accommodations. And if the system becomes more restrictive and FAILS to curb abuses, well, that's unacceptable, in my book.

[larig]

I'm sorry to hear that. I wouldn't take it seriously. Looking at that link, it appears you have found one person named Sandee and another named BeeGee who made those comments. Who went to a blog about an autistic child to make those comments, no less. What peaches they must be. I dunno. I can find thousands of internet comments about how Obama is a secret Muslim plotting against the US. If I took that to be the typical belief of people who voted against him, I would despair for this world.

I'm not sure why should I not take it seriously? I'm not contending that it is a mainstream belief, but it exists. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand. My kid has a lifetime of having to deal with his limitations and the judgments that will be made about him from people like these. Imagine if they begrudge a kid a day or two of accommodations at disneyland what they must say about the cost of his education!?

[wellyes]

. In general, I feel that when there is a perception (or misperception) of danger, or unfairness, or whatever that may be harming a company's image, they strive to create the perception that they have addressed the problem, even if all they have done is make things more complicated unnecessarily. I don't know that this is what Disney is doing, but I have my suspicions. I am absolutely willing to change my mind as time goes on.

Yes, but, for all the mystique about it, Disney is a for profit, publicly traded corporation. Their priority is to make money.


I'm not sure why should I not take it seriously? I'm not contending that it is a mainstream belief, but it exists.
I think seeing just how many awful people hate you is the worst part of the internet.

[123LuckyMom]

I know that well, Wellyes! I'm a stockholder! May Disney always make lots and lots of money so my kids' college fund flourishes!!!

This is why I have the suspicions I do.

[mommy111]

It may be insulting to you, but if you read enough comments on enough boards about this stuff, you'll see that she's right. There ARE people bitching about the "fairness" of the accommodations.
read the comments, for example, at squidalicious.com (a mother of a kiddo with autism's blog) when the changes were first announced (this is pre-lawsuit). Here's just a sample of some of the delightful posts. http://www.squidalicious.com/2013/09/please-disneyland-do-right-by-your.html









As a mom of a kid affected by this stuff it is tremendously hurtful to read this crap.

It is disgusting that any human being would write something like that. We were heading over to Florida in another couple of weeks, and we were looking forward to disney, but at this point I feel like we need a break. A company that back tracks on its disability policy is just not one that I can stomach supporting for right now. If we can't teach our precious brats that Disney is a privilege and not a right, to pass our seat on to an older person, to stand back when someone with a disability walks into a door or on a ride, I fear for the world our kids will live in. This seems to be the other side of the same coin that then misuses or pays to use disability passes without having a disability. Jeez. 'PREFERENTIAL access to rides for your child' Jeez!

[MamaKath]

I wonder what the response would have been if they didn't start from a place of exceptional accommodation.


I have been there a few times. The last two times both dh and ds qualified for the disabled passes. It made our experience as a family exceptional. Which is good, since it is not an inexpensive outing. Given the cost (park admission, stay, scooter rental, travel, etc) combined with the new policy, we chose to go somewhere less expensive last fall where there was a similar policy. We also decided not to go this coming summer although we had planned to. Waiting to hear more feedback.