S/O Working Moms - How do you decide what you want to be when you grow up?

[Philly Mom]

This may be a ramble of sorts so I apologize. I am trying to think through my next move professionally and personally and how to prioritize to "have it all" to the extent possible. I am hoping to hear what some of you are also thinking/weighing and how far ahead are you thinking. What do you value about working, what do you not value, what other things do you think you could do/would want to do? In essence, how do you see yourself and do you think about where you are going? I will go first.

I am a law firm partner. I have worked hard to get here and at least part of me has wanted to do what I do for most of my life. Other things that interested me: a therapist, a teacher, and a rabbi (mainly for the counseling aspects of it, not the religious parts of it). I come from a family of lawyers so it is hard to discuss this with my normal support group. Here are is how I see myself:

* I like working/having a purpose to every day. I would not be nearly as productive if I did not have a career.
* My self worth is tied into being a lawyer/a mom WOH. If I stayed home, I know I would have a hard time with giving up the confidence I have in myself because to a certain extent I do it all.
* I believe there is a value to my DDs to see a working mom and letting them be equally proud of what their mom accomplishes as to what their dad accomplishes.
* I have a career and it is not just a job.
* I love my kids and I LOVE spending time with them, more than most other lawyer moms I know, by A LOT. I love bedtime and free time out in the yard when the weather is nice. I don't even mind some tantrums. I have a lot of patience for my kids. I would enjoy them even more if I didn't have work stresses hanging over me when we are together.
* I think my kids get a lot out of being in a school environment even at young ages. They both love school and other kids.
* I wish I had more extended free time, though, to have them have more "vacations" from school. They need it.
* I have been penalized at work for having two kids both financially and in my overall position with the firm. Some of my issues with my firm are my own doing. I love spending time with my kids and limit my hours in the office to 8:30-5 unless I have depositions, court, client entertainment or a rare evening business development event. When I joined my firm, I was sold on this flexibility and told that the firm encouraged such behavior. That is clearly not the case. Comments that have been made to me, while the person saying them thinks she is a huge supporter of women, are inappropriate and directly tied to my being a mom. ie. "I thought you were going to stay home full time with your kids because you actually like to spend time with them."
* My job has some travel, but I don't mind the limited travel I have even though coordinating care for the kids is stressful and falls 100% on my shoulders. I know they survive if I am gone or if we are both gone. It is finding a care giver that is stressful. Travel is a time to be adult focused and even read a book on a plane and that can be nice.
* I stay at my job even though I have been penalized/received comments because if I went almost anywhere else in the city, I would fight over origination credit for my clients and control over the matters because my clients use so many different lawyers around the city, I come at 8:30 and leave at 5 almost every day, take my kids to necessary appointment, and the devil you know is better than the one you don't. I have also worked at 2 other large law firms and have friends who are others. I know that I have it better than others (though my compensation is an issue.)
* While I like providing counsel to my clients and certain aspects of my job, there are other aspects of being lawyer which do not suit me. Oddly, I hate to argue. I like to find solutions/problem solve. Arguing is a waste of time, but alas, I work in an adversarial process.
* The other jobs I thought about once upon a time are much more suited to me but don't pay enough to make it worth to make a change at this point in my life.
* I am the principal parent because I want to be, I am more patient, it comes more naturally to me, I am more focused on it, DH travels 14+ weeks a year (always Sunday to Friday), and when we had DD1, DH was working in Big 4 Accounting, which requires hours of 7am-10 pm most of the year.
* DH is the principal housekeeper, shopper, cook, errand doer, etc.. because he wants to be. When he is home, he is great about making dinner, kids' lunches, my dinner, shopping, laundry, dish washing.
* I want to move to Florida where it is sunny and warm and where my parents are half the year. I believe my kids would be happier there and DD1 asks to move there at least once a week right now. I am trying to decide whether this is tied to my frustration with my partners or not. I think it would be hard for me to be a lawyer in Florida unless I found an in house job. I have one other related idea of something I could do in Florida that would be a spin off of the work that I do now, but would not actually be practicing law. I would need to network but I think I could possibly make the other idea work, but I would be without an income until that could happen.
* While we don't need my income to live, especially if we moved to Florida, we do need my income to be able think about the future and retirement.
* I also like my financial independence. We have joint everything but I would worry/feel guilt about going out to a meal with friends if I didn't work.
* I want my children to have some of the experiences I had as a kid. They require money and DH does not make that kind of money on his own.
* I think it is important for kids to see parents work for money and some of the struggles/sacrifices working people make.
* Most days, I don't think I could just stay home, but I would love to have a job that allowed me to be unreachable between 3:30-8pm (most of the time) so I can spend that time with my kids.
* Some days I would love to stay home and be able to have at least a moment for myself to exercise and put my needs first.
* Two of my closest friends stay home (both former professionals) and both are struggling right now with what to do with themselves now that their kids are in school. It is causing some anxiety, depression, loss of confidence. Neither want to work full time but they aren't happy with where they are right now.
* I have had no free time so since having a kid, I have not exercised and barely take time for myself. My time is strictly for work and my kids. DH and I are trying to make time for us and getting sitters once a month so we can go out on our own.

I think my question here is, does anyone else feel so conflicted? It's keeping me up at night. I was recently asked for my 5 year plan. I am not sure if I can give my 2 year plan, let alone a 5 year plan. For right now, I am keeping my head down, doing my work, keeping my client's happy, and making sure to bill enough hours that I can make a point about being under compensated. I also trying to be there for my kids, to play with them, enjoy them, but I will admit that this cold awful weather makes it hard. Of course, my 2 year plan is up in the air while we decide if we are going to move. I am trying to sort my thoughts about whether or not to move. If we did move, we would move a year to 15 months from now.

The amount this is weighing on me is driving me crazy. Until the past couple years, I was very confident in my job and my role as a mom. I am still confident in my abilities and the client service I provide, and my role as a mom, but the political dynamics of my firm are having me question a lot both about my career and myself. Anyone else's thoughts about either my situation or your own, would be appreciated.

[westwoodmom04]

I think you just need to leave law firm life behind -- it can be soul crushing. I was in Big Law for 10 years pre-kids then worked for the federal government in DC after kids. Life (and lawyering) is so much better when you aren't worrying about things like origination credit and billable hours. I loved working for the same client every day, being able to spend as much time as I thought necessary on my cases, and being involved with policy issues that transcended individual matters. I haven't worked in house but I think it would be a similar experience.

[hillview]

YES. BIG TIME. I have a freak out every 6 months to a year about some balancing issue (or poor balancing execution). My situation is
* exec in a software company, travel 30% (but CEO/boss and others wish it was more and in many cases my job would be better done it if was more)
* love my kids, feel they need me (each has special needs -- the older they get the MORE I feel like they need me)
* DH has a great job pays more than mine. we don't NEED my income but we travel with it and kids college and retirement is well funded by it
* I have ALWAYS worked and it is a BIG part of my identity YET don't love my work, often think about a totally different job that I'd like more but would get paid 40% at best of what I make now, and makes no sense
* we outsource a lot (care for my parents, his mom, have a part time nanny, part time house keeper etc)
* exercise (and hobbies other stuff I want to do) is a back seat to everything else -- I do work out a few times a week but feel terribly torn as it is taking away time from kids and work when I do
* don't love my job but get paid very well and do my job very well an expert in the area, do some limited speaking engagements etc.

SIGH. It is hard. If I didn't have kids I would LOVE to do a bigger job but NO WAY want to stop being a mom or even trade any more of my mom job for work. It is really hard (SUCKS really). I feel like this is pretty new territory in our generation and very little way to accommodate OR (more likely) that we were sold (bought) a bag of goods that you can have it all, lean in, be super mom and feed organic, avoid BPA, work out, cook dinner and eat as a family every night blah blah and feel fulfilled. I call BS on that :)

[westwoodmom04]

One other thought, building on what Hillview posted, it sounds like you can afford some time off but don't want it to be a permanent thing. Any chance your firm would give you an unpaid sabbatical? if not, and you plan to job hunt, I would take three to six months between jobs if you could. One of my friends took off exactly one year during her kids' last year of preschool. Nine months in, she started looking for a new job and she started within a year, almost exactly, of leaving her last job.

[basil]

I'll reply, but I don't know if this will be helpful to you!

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a physician. In a lot of ways it's the same but different. I'm in a surgical specialty that is fairly male dominated, but my call responsibilities aren't terrible. I'm a good surgeon, and I give everything I have to my patients. Where I fall short is in really making a 'career' out of my practice. I have not advanced nationally and in a research realm as much as my (male) colleagues because I do not have the time outside of work to spend on writing proposals, papers, presentations, and traveling to meetings and networking.

My DH is also a physician and has a more difficult schedule, and because of geography and hours, can't drop off or pick up the kids from daycare. So he has to take vacation if I were to travel. So we would use up all his vacation with me being gone.

I've thought about going part time - but for what? I feel like the stuff I fall most behind on at home is the housework. I would rather work than do housework. This may change as my kids get older...I love my kids and I love spending time with them and due to DH's schedule I'm often the primary provider. Like you, maybe, I feel like I would like more defined boundaries between work and home. And I'd like more time for myself - to work out, to hang out with friends.

I couldn't not work. I just couldn't. I like what I do, and I like the social interaction it provides me, and I really couldn't think of what else I could do that I would enjoy more that would make any money at all (shopping and eating at fancy restaurants are not careers, last I checked). I really enjoyed my maternity leaves, but I know my DH would freak out without our second income, even though by all means we should make enough to survive. He already sort of resents my moderate spending, so that would just exacerbate that problem. Plus, I just wonder what I would do all day, aside from housework, which I hate. As long as I am working I have a good excuse to hire it out.

Anyway, we decided to move states for new opportunities for both DH and I. It's going back home for me, and it will be close to where my parents and extended family live (brother and SIL, cousins, uncle/aunts). I'm hoping that helps somewhat with the stress of balancing things for me.

[daisysmom]

OP, I could have written so many elements of your post. And I have a lot of female attorney friends who are experiencing the same things.

Just touching on a few things-- I too agree that we have incredible flexibility in many ways and leaving to go to another firm won't help. I left one AmLaw firm to go to another in town, and didn't plan on bringing any clients. I was lucky, and a large client came over to me a year after I had moved. Then someone senior left from that client to be general counsel at another client. I have really been lucky -- but we see it all of the time with laterals -- it is nearly impossible to bring a book of business to another firm (and you know the company mentality of liking to spread their work around). When I left my one firm in my 17th year of practice, I truly underestimated how much I would miss my friends and the goodwill I had there among my partners. I had a distinct reason for coming to this other firm and some ties here which are also good, but I really did miss the friendships. It is very hard to replicate that. I don't think you said how long you had practiced, but I have been out 21.5 years and I think switching to another big firm (or similar sized firm) is just not generally a good move. Laterals need to be cut throat to succeed in a new place.

-None of my friends who have left the practice of law are staying home in a traditional sense of the word. I wouldn't either. I am too regimented and need office life - I am an extrovert and need to feeling of others around. The days I take off (I am part time so can do that), are completely scattered. I know myself to know that. But I have a really good friend who "retired" and has written a novel and it is doing well, she is on her second book. I have a few friends who are directors of nonprofits (we are in a medium sized city, so prior big-law experience is a perfect forray into this). I have other friends who go to the private schools where their kids are and work in the office, in Development, etc. My dad retired from being a doctor, took a preplanned 2 months of doign nothing, and then enrolled as a fulltime student in his local college. He takes a full class load, every day.

- So when I look at "retiring", I know that I will still be "working" every single day. I would never spend my days shopping or eating at fancy restaurants. But I would prioritize 1 hour of regular exercise and 2-3 hours of time with my child. My child's school is very heavy on sports (required for 3 seasons for middle school and up) so I know that many afternoons will be spent watching/volunteering/participating in some way with sporting events. I envision doing some volunteer (or paid work) but having it be more of a 10-3 "job".

Someone once gave me advice that when I feel like quitting/changing roles, instead spend the next 3-6 months prioritizing myself and cutting back and see if anyone notices. Don't write it on a billboard, but schedule time out of the office/away and see what happens. Don't take the stress home and incessantly check the iPhone while working on homework for my child. This friend once said -- try this and see what happens. I have never done it, but I have passed the advice on to others.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I'll reply, but I don't know if this will be helpful to you!

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a physician. In a lot of ways it's the same but different. I'm in a surgical specialty that is fairly male dominated, but my call responsibilities aren't terrible. I'm a good surgeon, and I give everything I have to my patients. Where I fall short is in really making a 'career' out of my practice. I have not advanced nationally and in a research realm as much as my (male) colleagues because I do not have the time outside of work to spend on writing proposals, papers, presentations, and traveling to meetings and networking.

My DH is also a physician and has a more difficult schedule, and because of geography and hours, can't drop off or pick up the kids from daycare. So he has to take vacation if I were to travel. So we would use up all his vacation with me being gone.

I've thought about going part time - but for what? I feel like the stuff I fall most behind on at home is the housework. I would rather work than do housework. This may change as my kids get older...I love my kids and I love spending time with them and due to DH's schedule I'm often the primary provider. Like you, maybe, I feel like I would like more defined boundaries between work and home. And I'd like more time for myself - to work out, to hang out with friends.

I couldn't not work. I just couldn't. I like what I do, and I like the social interaction it provides me, and I really couldn't think of what else I could do that I would enjoy more that would make any money at all (shopping and eating at fancy restaurants are not careers, last I checked). I really enjoyed my maternity leaves, but I know my DH would freak out without our second income, even though by all means we should make enough to survive. He already sort of resents my moderate spending, so that would just exacerbate that problem. Plus, I just wonder what I would do all day, aside from housework, which I hate. As long as I am working I have a good excuse to hire it out.



:yeahthat:
Thank you so much for replying... I always feel like i'm a big outlier on these boards whenever this subject comes up. I totally agree with the bolded. I have absolutely no desire to ever quit working, no matter how much $$ DH made. That never really comes up as an option ever in my mind.

i WOH FT, have a 5yo and an almost 4yo at home and I feel like I am juggling things pretty well. I don't have everything all together, I just stopped with the mom guilt and recognized that my kids are happy and thriving at their school, I am happy, my DH is happy, and that's all what matters. I work out a few times a week and I don't feel a lick of guilt over it (i don't think anyone should!) It helps that i really love my job, i feel like i'm making good contributions, it pays pretty well and I get recognized/appreciated at work for what I do. While i do have a bad commute (will fix that this summer by moving) I never have to travel, so I guess that does make it easier. And while the tech industry is not exactly well-known for being family-friendly (very male dominated, part-time gigs are non-existent, and working from home is often not an option), i do feel like my particular workplace is pretty good (people are not penalized for taking time off work for sick kids, that kind of thing).

And yes, i also HATE cleaning/housework. i think the only place i guess fall short with being a working mom is that the house is generally a cluttered mess. but when i was a SAHM it was also a cluttered mess, so it's not like me not working (or working less) would help that at all..I know i would first find a zillion other better things to do than clean ;) So at least now I can just use the fact that i am out of the house 10-11 hrs a day as an excuse for my house not being spic-n-span. I can live with that. :)

eta: i am so sorry OP to hear about the recent dynamics of your firm..it is a shame so many companies/firms aren't more family-friendly. i can imagine how a company you dont feel is all that supportive of your personal/family time can make or break your attitude on having a career or not. i remember all your encouraging working mama advice from 1-2 years ago when i just started working and was so overwhelmed with the transition. hoping that if you decide to move you find a much better environment!

[Philly Mom]

I think you just need to leave law firm life behind -- it can be soul crushing. I was in Big Law for 10 years pre-kids then worked for the federal government in DC after kids. Life (and lawyering) is so much better when you aren't worrying about things like origination credit and billable hours. I loved working for the same client every day, being able to spend as much time as I thought necessary on my cases, and being involved with policy issues that transcended individual matters. I haven't worked in house but I think it would be a similar experience.

I think you may be right and I need to think about what type of organization I want to be part of and what I can offer.



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[Philly Mom]

YES. BIG TIME. I have a freak out every 6 months to a year about some balancing issue (or poor balancing execution). My situation is
* exec in a software company, travel 30% (but CEO/boss and others wish it was more and in many cases my job would be better done it if was more)
* love my kids, feel they need me (each has special needs -- the older they get the MORE I feel like they need me)
* DH has a great job pays more than mine. we don't NEED my income but we travel with it and kids college and retirement is well funded by it
* I have ALWAYS worked and it is a BIG part of my identity YET don't love my work, often think about a totally different job that I'd like more but would get paid 40% at best of what I make now, and makes no sense
* we outsource a lot (care for my parents, his mom, have a part time nanny, part time house keeper etc)
* exercise (and hobbies other stuff I want to do) is a back seat to everything else -- I do work out a few times a week but feel terribly torn as it is taking away time from kids and work when I do
* don't love my job but get paid very well and do my job very well an expert in the area, do some limited speaking engagements etc.

SIGH. It is hard. If I didn't have kids I would LOVE to do a bigger job but NO WAY want to stop being a mom or even trade any more of my mom job for work. It is really hard (SUCKS really). I feel like this is pretty new territory in our generation and very little way to accommodate OR (more likely) that we were sold (bought) a bag of goods that you can have it all, lean in, be super mom and feed organic, avoid BPA, work out, cook dinner and eat as a family every night blah blah and feel fulfilled. I call BS on that :)

You nailed what I am feeling, I don't want to trade any more of my mom job for work, at least not long term, and I think I am at a crossroads where I either need to or move to a totally different type of organization.


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[gymnbomb]

- I am full time but not tenure track teaching faculty at a state university. I worked semi hard for 10 years to get my PhD and I am doing exactly what I want to be doing.

- It does not pay well (just under 46K plus whatever I manage to get for summer which can range from nothing to about 10K) but the schedule is wonderful. We live in a moderate COL area.

- DH makes roughly the same as my 9 month salary. He would be a stay at home dad if he could, but there is no way we will ever be able to afford one of us staying home. He doesn't hate his job, but does it because he has to and it is definitely a "job" to him and not a "career".

- I very much like having winter, spring and summer breaks, but have no desire to stay home all the time. In addition to being the kind of person who needs to work to avoid going crazy, I genuinely like both my job and my coworkers.

- I really wish my job had the potential for more job security and a higher salary, but I have it great right now and my plan is to stay with it as long as I can. We bought a house about 3 years ago and just added a garage last year and I feel settled in.

- I am the primary parent although DH is a very willing and hands on dad. He is the primary cook. We share cleaning and that is what usually falls through the cracks. I wish cleaning help was in our budget.

- there is a possibility (though it is far from certain) that my job description and title may be able to get changed which would probably come with a raise. If it were to happen, I think I would like to have a second baby about 3 years apart from DS. If it doesn't happen I don't think we will be able to comfortably afford daycare for two kids.


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[squimp]

Also not a lawyer, but I understand a lot of what you are saying. I work full time at a job I love, and I cannot imagine not working. I love what it brings to our family and our life. I feel no need to justify my choices to anyone, and I don't expect other people to do that either - part time, full time, SAHM, SAHD. And I honestly think I can have it all, I am tired of people telling us we cannot. I have decided that I do want to have it all. I don't feel like I have to justify my choices. I have dropped the mom guilt. No matter what I do, it will be wrong, so I just accept that I will do the best I can!

Gently though, I would never say I love my kids than other moms. If you've said anything that resembles that around others (e.g., the quote from your "huge supporter"), I can imagine people are not receiving that well.

[Philly Mom]

I'll reply, but I don't know if this will be helpful to you!

I'm not a lawyer, I'm a physician. In a lot of ways it's the same but different. I'm in a surgical specialty that is fairly male dominated, but my call responsibilities aren't terrible. I'm a good surgeon, and I give everything I have to my patients. Where I fall short is in really making a 'career' out of my practice. I have not advanced nationally and in a research realm as much as my (male) colleagues because I do not have the time outside of work to spend on writing proposals, papers, presentations, and traveling to meetings and networking.

My DH is also a physician and has a more difficult schedule, and because of geography and hours, can't drop off or pick up the kids from daycare. So he has to take vacation if I were to travel. So we would use up all his vacation with me being gone.

I've thought about going part time - but for what? I feel like the stuff I fall most behind on at home is the housework. I would rather work than do housework. This may change as my kids get older...I love my kids and I love spending time with them and due to DH's schedule I'm often the primary provider. Like you, maybe, I feel like I would like more defined boundaries between work and home. And I'd like more time for myself - to work out, to hang out with friends.

I couldn't not work. I just couldn't. I like what I do, and I like the social interaction it provides me, and I really couldn't think of what else I could do that I would enjoy more that would make any money at all (shopping and eating at fancy restaurants are not careers, last I checked). I really enjoyed my maternity leaves, but I know my DH would freak out without our second income, even though by all means we should make enough to survive. He already sort of resents my moderate spending, so that would just exacerbate that problem. Plus, I just wonder what I would do all day, aside from housework, which I hate. As long as I am working I have a good excuse to hire it out.

Anyway, we decided to move states for new opportunities for both DH and I. It's going back home for me, and it will be close to where my parents and extended family live (brother and SIL, cousins, uncle/aunts). I'm hoping that helps somewhat with the stress of balancing things for me.

I am so glad you replied. Thank you. I also would rather work than do housework. I would be horrible at it if it was part of my expected responsibilities and it would cause discord at home. DH also would be so stressed if I didn't work and would get upset with my spending if I didn't work. We work best with both of us working but he loves his job right now, which is a first, and I just need to get there. Our DHs sound similar :)


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[Philly Mom]

Gently though, I would never say I love my kids than other moms. If you've said anything that resembles that around others (e.g., the quote from your "huge supporter"), I can imagine people are not receiving that well.

Sorry if that came across wrong. I don't believe and would never say I love my kids more. It's not true. All my colleagues love/worship their kids. The comment that has been made TO me is that I like to spend time with my little kids more than they do/did. I rarely talk about my kids at work unless someone asks for my advice on something kid related or I want to do the same.

Eta: I think, at least in my office, this stems from the fact that I am the only one who doesn't complain about school closings/vacations etc.



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[Philly Mom]

Daisysmom, I agree 100% with you about looking at other firms. Being homegrown means a lot at a firm and otherwise you need to be more aggressive and work twice as hard. Most of my friends from my old firms have moved on so at least there is not much to miss. We get to meet for lunch instead :).

Ms Pacman, thank you for your thoughts. It is good to be reminded of former versions of myself. It helps me to remember what I am looking for and what I am striving for ultimately.


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[mnj77]

I feel very lucky to "have it all." I love my career, love raising dd, love my marriage, love my hobbies and feel like I have time to devote to all of it.

I'm a lawyer for a state legislature and it's great. It's challenging and has times of excitement but also lots of slower times with lots of flexibility. Most of the year I can pick up dd from school a couple times a week, never a problem to take off for school events and appointments. The best parts are no billable hours and it's not adversarial. I used to be a litigator and hated it for those two reasons.

I like working in general. I like having part of my life that's my own. I like contributing to a workplace and to our family. I like the fact that I will still have that part of my identity when dd leaves the nest. I like that I have an excuse for my messy house and my house cleaner because I'm terrible at cleaning!

My job might not be ideal for everyone because there isn't a lot of opportunity for advancement, not that prestigious or terribly lucrative (although nearly free family health insurance is a good perk). I've never been that ambitious so it's OK with me. I think I could just do what I'm doing for the rest of my career and be quite content.

[TxCat]

First, :hug: OP.

Like basil, I'm a physician in a fairly male-dominated field. But, like you OP, I have dug myself into a situation where I'm very mommy-tracked in my current job, and that has been an intermittent source of stress for me professionally. I work in private practice, and in some ways it's similar to a law firm - partners and associates. However, most of the associates are not on the partner track, and they are mostly female, while most of the partners are males. My group has bad history with female partners in the past - it's a very hierarchical set-up, and the path to partnership, and even once a partner, can be brutal hours-wise, so female partners in the past left the partnership due to work-life balance. As a result, the partners are now very wary of taking on any females for partner-track positions.

About 2 years ago I started posting on here asking for similar work advice - I felt professionally unfulfilled in my mommy-track position - in theory the hours were nice (M-F 7-3), but there was zero room for flexibility in terms of taking a morning or an afternoon off here and there, vacation schedule was really frustrating (impossible to get spring break, Christmas or Thanksgiving off as a non-partner), and I felt frustrated with how I was treated at work much of the time (associate docs in my group often got some of the worst daily assignments, most difficult cases, etc., which was just exhausting to do every day). And the compensation was far below that of the industry average. I didn't know if I needed to try to get back into academics at my training program (a much more egalitarian environment), find another practice to work for, or what. However, I did have a very good relationship with one of the partners because we were both sub-specialized in the same field and it allowed me to work more at a new clinical site and to really build a strong mentee-mentor relationship with him. As a result, I ended up getting to suggest a schedule change and primary work relocation to this other site (it also didn't hurt that he found out through the grapevine that I was looking at other jobs - not my intention for him to find out, but when asked about it, I answered truthfully but not transparently and it ended up working to my advantage), and the result is that I've never been happier with my career. I work 14 12-hour shifts each month, split evenly through days, nights, weekends, weekdays. This gave me a huge boost in flexibility, and additional time off during some of the holiday weeks that the girls will have off for school. Since I knew that my schedule change was originally a tough sell to the partnership, I have also gone out of my way to never complain about things at work, and am almost always willing to take on extra work, shifts or coverage or trades for the partners - basically everything that I can do to prove that I am a team player. For instance, I worked last night 7pm-7am this morning, then had to go back from 1130-130 to cover one of my direct bosses. DD2 was screaming and crying at the door when I left - I felt terrible. But, when my boss returned to relieve me, I found out that I'm receiving a raise this year (virtually unheard of for associates with our group) - not just because of working extra today, but basically recognition for my "leaning in" and making this schedule work, etc.

Anyways, I'm not sure there is much of my experience that would apply to yours, but I definitely found work-life balance and career happiness by pursuing an idea (i.e., a new schedule) that was unheard of in my firm and creating a new niche for myself, and by getting some of the partners on my side by impressing them with good work and a good attitude. If this change hadn't come about, I almost certainly would have ended up looking for a new job, and possibly moving as a result. At my lowest point, my five-year plan had nothing to do with working at my current workplace - it consisted entirely of ideas about any other places where I could work!

Right now, I'm very fulfilled with work and can't imagine leaving it any time soon. I love spending time with my children and taking care of them, but at this point work is easier and is a break - I know what I'm doing at work, and I know that I do it well. When my 4 yo and 18 mo old are both melting down for no apparent reason at 4pm, I don't necessarily feel incompetent, but I don't feel particularly competent either - that doesn't really happen at work! My current schedule gives me the best of both worlds - it feels like more quality time at home with my family, but I still get to enjoy my professional identity and all of the advantages that come with working like additional income and funding my retirement. I've also found that working has really cemented a 50-50 partnership with my husband, an advantage that I don't think I anticipated. He's a tenured professor at a large university, so he works a good number of hours (in-class and at home), but income-wise, I'm the breadwinner. He loves his job, so being a SAHD would never be an option for him, so instead we support each other as much as possible by sharing household duties and outsourcing certain jobs (weekly housekeeper, 40-hr/week nanny, twice monthly yard service). Although in many ways I'm the "primary parent" in terms of taking DDs to doctor appointments, going to parent-teacher meetings, researching schools, camps, extracurriculars, etc., DH picks up a lot of slack when necessary, especially when I'm working. I truly feel like we are equal partners at home and that has been tremendously helpful.

Despite a lot of positive developments in my workplace, the main drawback is that I'm still fundamentally mommy-tracked - I think it's virtually impossible that I will ever be asked to move up to partner track. Sometimes that does grate on me, but not nearly as much as it used to. I could make more money if I went back to academics, but I would lose a lot of my free time and flexibility. My SAHM friends seem to think that I'm "having it all" but since I know that I'm limited in terms of leadership and promotions, as well as salary, with my current position, I know that is not true. For now, I think that bargain is okay with me. Whether that stays true 5 years from now is hard to say, but since everyone tells me that children need you more as they get older, I can only assume that I will just get more and more protective of my personal time, and less inclined to be at work more than is absolutely necessary.

As for free time and mommy guilt, I try to build in time to work out at least 3-4 times a week. I sometimes feel guilty about it, but I always remind myself that I feel so much better after working out, and that increased energy and positivity helps me be a better parent, wife and physician. However, the last couple of weeks I've been working extra a lot so working out has kind of fallen by the wayside and I just remind myself that this is temporary. DH and I aim for at least 1-2 date nights per month, and usually one of those is for going out with friends - 1 or 2 other couples at a time. The things I'm worst about are protecting sleep for myself - there is so much that I want to do when I'm at home at night, that it's impossible for me to go to sleep earlier than 11 usually, and making time for outings with my girlfriends. Nighttime outings are easier, but brunches or lunches are usually primetime for spending time with my kids and I'm loath to give that time up, even though I know I need to tend to and nurture my friendships as well. That's actually one of my goals for 2015 - be a better friend, which for me means being able to give more of my time.

In my city I know a LOT of female attorneys. Very few have stayed in Big Law. I know one at a second tier firm (or bottom of first tier) who truly works part-time, like 2 1/2 days a week, but I think she has a situation similar to mine where she practices a more niche specialty and was able to demand a part-time schedule and they accommodated her. A few others have gone to more boutique practices and are part-time, but readily admit that that is just a nice way of saying at least 40 hrs/week but for less money. My attorney friends that have found federal gov't jobs seem very happy with their work-life balance, and I have another friend who works for a medical school and loves it, in part because she gets all the school holidays off, which can be weeks off during winter break. I have a couple of attorney friends who have quit practicing altogether, but one of them hated being a lawyer in the first place, and the other now teaches chapel at DD1's MDO/preschool - she doesn't necessarily miss practicing law, but she did miss working, even with two young children at home.

[egoldber]

I think that some professions, law and medicine among them, are incredibly difficult to balance. There are such high expectations for hours worked. I can't imagine doing that for any length of time and not burning out!

But I like working. I think it's better for me emotionally to work. Like you mentioned OP, it gives purpose and direction to my day and my life. I think that I am overall a better mom by working.

That being said, I don't love my job. I don't feel a "calling" to do it. I don't know that I feel a calling to anything in particular. :) I guess I'm OK with that. I enjoy the work, it's intellectually stimulating, and I feel like it does some higher good/purpose. I work for the federal government, so I have a lot of leave and sick time, and no one looks askance at you for using it. I can telework 2 days a week, and that's huge for allowing me to balance work/life when DH travels.

If I were you, I would look for different work that allows a better balance.

[twowhat?]

Subbing. I'm reading this thread with great interest.

To me it seems like the difference is if you LIKE or LOVE your job.

I have a very intellectually stimulating job. Too much, at times. BUT I HATE IT. I deal with pharma crazies. I hate it. People ask for things on short timelines. I feel like I'm forced into saying "yes" to things I realistically want to say "no, we don't have the resources to do that at this time" to. I don't feel like I'm making a difference in the world or that I'm helping people, the way a doctor would. And, because I hate my job, I hate all the things that come along with it - people expecting that you work evenings/weekends. Travel. Unrealistic expectations. Burn-out. The complete inability to plan a day in advance and have it go the way you want (I have friends in the same field and I have lost count of the number of times we have canceled a "lunch date" because of work stuff that comes up.) The only "good" thing is that I'm paid well. Not well enough, IMO, compared to men. But pretty good.

If I loved, or even liked, my job, I could see how I would view it COMPLETELY differently. How I wouldn't feel guilty about the overtime, the travel. How I would carve out time for exercise and not feel guilty that it's more time away from my kids.

But I don't love or like my job. I would rather clean the house (I actually like cleaning, it's therapeutic for me). I would rather be able to cook healthy meals and pick my kids up after school and attend school events in the middle of the day. And I constantly think about how I could make things better because I don't want to go back to school. The hardest thing is that any change pretty much assumes losing my salary or a good portion of it. And given that I do make a significant salary, that's a big blow to future financial stability.

The other thing that makes it hard is that DH has an equally demanding job (but at least he loves it).

Anyway, that was part vent!

[egoldber]

And given that I do make a significant salary, that's a big blow to future financial stability.

If you changed jobs, you may not earn as much, but it would still be a salary. When I went back to work, I went back at a significantly lower level and lower salary (50% less) than when I left the work force. Some of that was a function of being out of the work force for 8 years, but some was a conscious recognition that I could not work like I did before. I ignored certain types of jobs that would pay more, but also required a lot of overtime and client interface. So while I could be earning a lot more, I am content with what I am doing.

Maybe you've already done this, but have you sat down to do the calculations to look at the long term impact if your salary decreased a fair amount. And your emotional state should be a factor in that equation as well.

[StantonHyde]

What about being involved with arbitration or mediation? Or working for a non-profit? You would take a huge pay cut working for a non-profit but you could gain a ton in flexibility. Or working as in house legal counsel for a university?

[Mopey]

I also instantly thought about a switch to mediation for you.

I will also chime in, albeit differently. As most of you know I'm a private pastry chef who works for herself. It has taken me years to build my client list and I still don't have enough. When I say I make a pittance I am not exaggerating. But I no longer work 17 hour Saturdays for other designers who pass off my talents as their own. I LOVE what I do. It is creative and enjoyable and really special to make a first birthday or wedding cake. Sometimes it is completely nuts - at the holidays, newly preggers and barfing a lot I was up until 2:30AM for 15 nights straight. And I am the main caregiver - no one else really can pick up or drop off regularly which as many of you know can seriously eat into your day. I am the prime example of the second shift - when work is heavy I am almost always working again at 8pm. When I was first pregnant I was absolutely panicked until I was privy to a convo with two moms of two who wanted to go back to work - but only about ten hours a week and from home. That's when I realized how lucky I was/am. Yes I am terrified for two kids, yes I will have to rebuild again/more when we move out to the burbs. But as many of you have said working is very important to me, and though it may be little, what I can contribute to the family is worth it (and holidays are awesome - in December I brought in more than my seriously main earner hubby).

But I am also opening my mind to shifts we may go through - more time as SAHM when we eventually move to the burbs, looking into getting my coding certification to bring more money in to help my family and my self-esteem/individuality and being okay with all of those potential changes. I personally could care less about "having it all" because I feel so lucky to have what I do. If I can't make cakes forever that's okay; as long as I am helping my family somehow - by cleaning, cooking, chauffeur-ing, coding, and maybe pastries etc then I'm happy to take care and contribute in that way. All this rambling to say I think there is something to working on your (general) mindset and ideas of what life could/would/should look like in order to achieve happiness (ETA: and fulfillment!) in different circumstances....

I do hope we all find our ways and paths to continue living our lives happily :grouphug:

[niccig]

I'm trying to figure this out too. I'm struggling with desire to get career going in an area I want plus balance with home life. I'm in my last internship before I get my masters to be a SLP. I'm at a hospital and could see myself doing this work, but the schedule may be too much to juggle with DS. The most family friendly option is to be a SLP at a school, but there are drawbacks to that setting that I don't find appealing. I have to do a fellowship my first year out before I can get my licence, and if the hospital offers me one, I'll take it as it's difficult to get a medical position in my area. We'll have to work out the scheduling for a year and then I'll look at a school-based job until DS goes off to college (8 years), and see if the hospital will let me work per diem on weekends (one to two Saturdays a month). If they don't offer me a fellowship position, then I'll look for a school job and see if the hospital would be agreeable to per diem once my fellowship year is over and I have my license. They are training me in this internship, so I should be able to pick things back up quickly in one years time.

Per diem weekend work would let me keep foot in door in a medical setting, and hopefully make it an easier transition if I want to change career paths later on.

It does frustrate me that I can't be as free as my classmates in choosing career paths, but that's my reality right now. And while 8 years sounds like a long time, before I know it, DS will be off at college. So the answer for me is to try to juggle my career needs with family needs knowing that there will come a point where I'll have more freedom. It may be too late for some career options, but I'll maxmize what is still available to me.

[basil]

Phillymom - thanks for posting this, I'm really enjoying reading everyone's responses! Yes, our DH's must be similar, but honestly, if DH was working part time, I would expect more of him in the housekeeping department too!

TxCat - it's interesting to hear how your schedule is working for you. My DH has a very similar schedule right now and it is not working for us at all! I feel like we have no time as a family. Example: He worked all this weekend, we got maybe 3 hours of family time combined before the kids' bedtimes - and part of that he spent shoveling snow. He's working today, so won't get home til after the kids are in bed. Tomorrow he's off but I'm working, so we'll have the evening together. Wednesday he's working an overnight, so I'll get home and he'll head out the door. Thursday he'll sleep, I'll bring the kids home, and we'll probably have an hour together before he needs to leave for another overnight. Then Friday night we'll have together. Two nights in a 7 day stretch for family dinners together is just getting tough!

I could probably have negotiated a part time schedule, but I see those women who have done that and they are super mommy tracked. And while maybe that would be ok for now, I worry that I'd be unsatisfied in 5 or 10 years and wonder what I could have done.

When I think about what I truly want...it's not to go shopping and sit around all day. It's not to do the laundry and read "Hop on Pop" all day (happy birthday Dr. Seuss!). It's not even to volunteer in their schools (other people's kids = ugh :bag). It's to have more quality time and not necessarily more quantity of time. I'd like to feel relaxed and happy when I get home, to leave work behind, and to not rush in the door thinking "oh, I need to clean the kitchen, there's laundry to put away, the baby is crying, the preschooler is hungry, I'm tripping over an Elmo potty in the kitchen as I try to get the chicken nuggets in the toaster, while checking my email to see if Dr. Lazy replied to my email about the call schedule." I don't quite know how to get to the point where I can walk in the door, put my stuff away and take my shoes off without anyone screaming at me, and take out some fresh chicken tenders to bread and make for DCs while I'm chatting to them about their day at school. Maybe it's a nanny or yet more housekeeping help (we already employ 2 housekeepers). Maybe it's for the kids to get a little older. Maybe it's on me to put the phone down and let go of the day better. I'm just not sure how to get where I want to go.

[Mopey]

When I think about what I truly want...it's not to go shopping and sit around all day. It's not to do the laundry and read "Hop on Pop" all day (happy birthday Dr. Seuss!). It's not even to volunteer in their schools (other people's kids = ugh :bag). It's to have more quality time and not necessarily more quantity of time. I'd like to feel relaxed and happy when I get home, to leave work behind, and to not rush in the door thinking "oh, I need to clean the kitchen, there's laundry to put away, the baby is crying, the preschooler is hungry, I'm tripping over an Elmo potty in the kitchen as I try to get the chicken nuggets in the toaster, while checking my email to see if Dr. Lazy replied to my email about the call schedule." I don't quite know how to get to the point where I can walk in the door, put my stuff away and take my shoes off without anyone screaming at me, and take out some fresh chicken tenders to bread and make for DCs while I'm chatting to them about their day at school.

I completely understand this and have the same issues - especially because I work at home!! I am lucky to have some flexibility so I decided to cut back on Mopey's hours at daycare because it gives us more chances at quality time on light work weeks. Some other weeks are nuts and I am calling the Grandmas and sitters but so far I am actually really loving it. Nice before the new baby, too. Like Philly I just have to remember to make that concerted effort to not check the phone or worry about the recipe or email - I'll just tackle it later! :D

[rachelh]

I am loving this thread! I have not read all the responses but I am at a similar crossroads. I am so conflicted about what to do - leave my high paying but high stress job to...? Stay home, get a part-time job, work on expanding my custom cake business?

I really don't know where I see myself headed but I do know I am not at my best or performing at my best (at work or at home.)

Will be back to read all the responses when I actually have a few moments - like I ever have a few moments?!?!

[Mopey]

I am loving this thread! I have not read all the responses but I am at a similar crossroads. I am so conflicted about what to do - leave my high paying but high stress job to...? Stay home, get a part-time job, work on expanding my custom cake business?

I really don't know where I see myself headed but I do know I am not at my best or performing at my best (at work or at home.)

Will be back to read all the responses when I actually have a few moments - like I ever have a few moments?!?!

Rachel - since we do the same thing what I will relay to you is what I have told everyone who talks to me about wanting to go into (any) business for themselves: when you work for yourself you work all the time. I'm sure my days can get as stressful as say, a a BF who is a senior partner at a financial firm - only I don't have anyone else to rely on. I don't mean to be a downer - just an FYI as you consider things.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I could probably have negotiated a part time schedule, but I see those women who have done that and they are super mommy tracked. And while maybe that would be ok for now, I worry that I'd be unsatisfied in 5 or 10 years and wonder what I could have done.

When I think about what I truly want...it's not to go shopping and sit around all day. It's not to do the laundry and read "Hop on Pop" all day (happy birthday Dr. Seuss!). It's not even to volunteer in their schools (other people's kids = ugh :bag). It's to have more quality time and not necessarily more quantity of time. I'd like to feel relaxed and happy when I get home, to leave work behind, and to not rush in the door thinking "oh, I need to clean the kitchen, there's laundry to put away, the baby is crying, the preschooler is hungry, I'm tripping over an Elmo potty in the kitchen as I try to get the chicken nuggets in the toaster, while checking my email to see if Dr. Lazy replied to my email about the call schedule." I don't quite know how to get to the point where I can walk in the door, put my stuff away and take my shoes off without anyone screaming at me, and take out some fresh chicken tenders to bread and make for DCs while I'm chatting to them about their day at school. Maybe it's a nanny or yet more housekeeping help (we already employ 2 housekeepers). Maybe it's for the kids to get a little older. Maybe it's on me to put the phone down and let go of the day better. I'm just not sure how to get where I want to go.

:yeahthat: i think exactly the same way. dh & i talk about what we both want and we always come back to wanting QUALITY time with kids vs quantity. We actually just talked about how in the future (once both kids are in school) outsourcing more help (right now we just have a housecleaning every 2 weeks). while i do enjoy things like cooking healthy meals for the kids, inevitably that comes with lots of cleanup and honestly, i'd rather be playing with my kiddos than cleaning up the kitchen. i think ideally we'd like to get housekeeping help 2x a week or something, and maybe get grocery delivery or something. I really think that would be a HUGE help so that we aren't spending as much precious weekend/weeknight time doing chores. I know many people seem reluctant to hire out help but I see it sort of essential to my sanity (and the sanity of my family!) if we both work outside the home (and we have no family help).

i am going to keep working full-time, no question... however, i think it would make me incredibly sad to have every evening during the week be a mad scramble as soon as i walk in the door for dinner/bath/bed ..seems like almost no downtime for me (or them!). It is not bad now that my kids are in daycare (and we don't put them to bed until 930pm or so they can sleep in the mornings), but my oldest starts school this coming year, and i know it's going to get harder with early wakeup time and homework, etc. So i am kinda determined to do what i can to make it so i can just leave work at 430pm or so most days, so i can walk in the door, get dinner ready while kids play, then have dinner, homework time and reading books etc...that way it is not so rushed and we have lots of time together as a family.

I will say i think dinner time/evenings get MUCH easier once both kids are past the toddler/diaper stage. With kids 4 and 5yo it's a lot better than it was now that the kids can really entertain each other, and dont' have to go to bed so early to avoid meltdowns. Today I left right at 5, walked in the door with kids around 6:15ish..got dinner ready by 6:45p while they played together. Then 7-8pm I sat down with the kids to do a craft DD wanted to do...which was so nice. I really do feel like I have finally gotten to the golden age (at least for me), now that kids are old enough to do activities together, engage in conversation ("what did you do in school today?", appreciate things, etc). So, just want to say it DOES get easier!! I think is 100x easier than when I first started working when kids were 2 and 3.

[SnuggleBuggles]

ms.pacman[emoji813];4091481]:yeahthat: i think exactly the same way. dh & i talk about what we both want and we always come back to wanting QUALITY time with kids vs quantity. We actually just talked about how in the future (once both kids are in school) outsourcing more help (right now we just have a housecleaning every 2 weeks). while i do enjoy things like cooking healthy meals for the kids, inevitably that comes with lots of cleanup and honestly, i'd rather be playing with my kiddos than cleaning up the kitchen. i think ideally we'd like to get housekeeping help 2x a week or something, and maybe get grocery delivery or something. I really think that would be a HUGE help so that we aren't spending as much precious weekend/weeknight time doing chores. I know many people seem reluctant to hire out help but I see it sort of essential to my sanity (and the sanity of my family!) if we both work outside the home (and we have no family help).

i am going to keep working full-time, no question... however, i think it would make me incredibly sad to have every evening during the week be a mad scramble as soon as i walk in the door for dinner/bath/bed ..seems like almost no downtime for me (or them!). It is not bad now that my kids are in daycare (and we don't put them to bed until 930pm or so they can sleep in the mornings), but my oldest starts school this coming year, and i know it's going to get harder with early wakeup time and homework, etc. So i am kinda determined to do what i can to make it so i can just leave work at 430pm or so most days, so i can walk in the door, get dinner ready while kids play, then have dinner, homework time and reading books etc...that way it is not so rushed and we have lots of time together as a family.

I will say i think dinner time/evenings get MUCH easier once both kids are past the toddler/diaper stage. With kids 4 and 5yo it's a lot better than it was now that the kids can really entertain each other, and dont' have to go to bed so early to avoid meltdowns. Today I left right at 5, walked in the door with kids around 6:15ish..got dinner ready by 6:45p while they played together. Then 7-8pm I sat down with the kids to do a craft DD wanted to do...which was so nice. I really do feel like I have finally gotten to the golden age (at least for me), now that kids are old enough to do activities together, engage in conversation ("what did you do in school today?", appreciate things, etc). So, just want to say it DOES get easier!! I think is 100x easier than when I first started working when kids were 2 and 3.

With school comes homework but, even more for some families, are activities. We typically have some kid activity 2-3 nights/ week, usually right in the 5-7 range. Makes things interesting. :)

[Philly Mom]

I have really appreciated everyone's contributions to this thread. It has given me a lot to think about as I try to make some future choices. It reminded me of things I need to be happy and could do without. Flexibility to me is really Important, which is why I haven't looked for other positions. I like my day to day work and probably wouldn't mind being officially mommy tracked if it didn't come with the disdain and marginalization that I have been feeling, all the while being one of the largest billers.

I always thought I wanted to work for the government but we didn't like living in DC. I think I need to look for federal jobs again preferably in warmer weather :).

Beth, i think I am a better mom for working too. I don't have a lot of mommy guilt, except of course last week when my intuition told me something was wrong with DD2 when I dropped her off and there really was. I would love to telecommute but it is frowned upon in my office even though most days I don't see clients and my biggest client is based in a state 1000 miles away.

It is hard to build an arbitration or mediation practice. I could be a finra arbitrator while figuring out next steps if we moved but the pay is bad. I represent a number of universities. They work 24/7. Their in house business clients are students. They don't sleep :). If we move, I will apply to some though.

We went to dinner with two couples this weekend. One, who stopped working a few years ago with 11&9 year olds, said she can't imagine working now with all the car pooling and activities. However, she said her friends with high schoolers and older felt loss if they didn't have jobs because their kids didn't need them so much. It put some things in perspective of how to not lean out so much that when my kids are older I feel lost.

I can picture my perfect world. I just have to figure out how to get there. It includes the quality time others spoke about. It includes a job that is challenging and interesting while I am there but that I can leave at the office most days. It includes feeling valued at work. I also want to let my kids choose activities and take them to them without it over complicating our life. I want to let them make friends and have my working status not interfere. I want to swim outside every day, ok that also requires a move to Florida :).


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[Binkandabee]

I always thought I wanted to work for the government but we didn't like living in DC. I think I need to look for federal jobs again preferably in warmer weather :).


About 6 months ago, this is exactly what I did. I worked as an estate planning attorney at a 10 attorney firm for 7 years. I found a job with the judiciary and I am SO glad that I made the move. I struggled a bit because while the pay matches what I was making with much, much less stress, it is capped, meaning that it can't go over a certain amount, not matter how awesome I am :) Had I stayed in private practice, I could have easily tripled or more what I make now. I still struggle with feelings of not living up to my potential, but at the end of the day, what I really want in life is to be the best mom that I can be.

[TxCat]

Basil, I think there might be some unique features to our situation that make my schedule work. One huge part is that I'm not necessarily up all night long when I'm working a night shift. Maybe 30-40% of my night shifts I'm essentially up all night, but most of the night shifts I can get at least 2-3 hours of sleep which makes a huge difference between staying up and being functional the next day vs. needing to sleep at least 2-3 hours when I get home. A second part is that I don't need a lot of sleep ;) - don't get me wrong, I'd love more than I get, but most night shifts I stay up the whole next day and just go to sleep early that night. The final part is that my DH is a university professor and on the days he's not teaching, he works from home writing and doing his research, which helps us see each other more. Of course, there are stretches here and there where it feels like we're ships in the night - he leaves before I get home in the morning and I have to work again in the night. But, since my shifts are 7-7 (or 8-8 on the weekends), the only time we don't get to have dinner together is when I'm working a day shift. Otherwise, we have dinner together every night at 6pm, and I get to help put the girls to bed before I go to work. Honestly, the day shifts are harder on me in some ways because it feels like I miss more - it's just a hectic sprint in the morning with very little quality time for anyone, and DD2 is usually in bed by the time I get home, but I do get to cuddle with DD1. But, I feel much more "in the loop" with major things going on in my workplace when I'm working a day shift so it's a trade-off.

The scenario you described of rushing through the door in the late afternoon only to deal with the dinner/bedtime chaos is a big reason why I changed my schedule. Even though I finished at 3pm every day, I had zero flexibility. So, if I didn't want to spend vacations doing errands and going to medical appointments, I had to cram in everything in the late afternoons. Since I have to get to work by 6:45 in the morning, I never worked out in the mornings, and so the only time I had to go to the gym was right after work. And, since I live in an area with a lot of SAHMs (I think every mom in DD1's 13-person nursery school class is a SAHM except for me), it was nearly impossible to get to know the other families, have playdates, etc. Now I have time to grocery shop on weekday mornings, do school pick-ups and drop-offs many days, take DD1 to her OT appointments most of the time, help with class parties and other events at school, and have gotten to know and become friends with several moms at DD1's school, as well as have gotten to enjoy 1 on 1 time with DD2 when DD1 is at school and DH is at work. My schedule is definitely not for everyone, but it's been an amazing change for me and for my family (DH loves it). I have several colleagues at the same clinical site who also changed jobs to take shift positions and they have all really found it to be much more conducive to quality family time as well - of course they were in fields where they had clinic from 8-5, then were on-call three times/month, etc.

Sorry to hijack, OP! But, I stand by my original point - sometimes creating a niche for yourself, creating a new schedule, and thinking outside of the box can lead to great things. For me, it brought better work-life balance, and much more satisfaction at work while feeling less officially mommy-tracked.

[Philly Mom]

This article just popped up in my Facebook feed and I thought it was appropriate.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/03/female-company-president-im-sorry-to-all-the-mothers-i-used-to-work-with/

[daisysmom]

...i think it would make me incredibly sad to have every evening during the week be a mad scramble as soon as i walk in the door for dinner/bath/bed ..seems like almost no downtime for me (or them!). It is not bad now that my kids are in daycare (and we don't put them to bed until 930pm or so they can sleep in the mornings), but my oldest starts school this coming year, and i know it's going to get harder with early wakeup time and homework, etc. ...

I will say i think dinner time/evenings get MUCH easier once both kids are past the toddler/diaper stage. With kids 4 and 5yo it's a lot better than it was now that the kids can really entertain each other, and dont' have to go to bed so early to avoid meltdowns. Today I left right at 5, walked in the door with kids around 6:15ish..got dinner ready by 6:45p while they played together. Then 7-8pm I sat down with the kids to do a craft DD wanted to do...which was so nice. I really do feel like I have finally gotten to the golden age (at least for me), now that kids are old enough to do activities together, engage in conversation ("what did you do in school today?", appreciate things, etc). So, just want to say it DOES get easier!! I think is 100x easier than when I first started working when kids were 2 and 3.

A few things I wanted to respond to. First, we outsource a ton. I have never been a cleaner. We have a housekeeper come at least 2 days a week, and someone else comes in and does laundry and sometimes runs some other errands a day or two a week. We outsource pretty much all yard care too. I found this thread interesting in that I think some peopel equate quitting working with cleaning the house. That thought has never crossed my mind.

Second, I do think your age kids are easier than toddlers in the evening but once we hit elementary school, our evenings take on a whole new level of busy-ness. Sports, extra activities, and just the regular homework and school projects have us out of the house and pretty busy most nights of the week. I don't know any women of school age kids that really get regular "me time" in the evenings. My me-time comes out of my work day.

[daisysmom]

This article just popped up in my Facebook feed and I thought it was appropriate.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/03/female-company-president-im-sorry-to-all-the-mothers-i-used-to-work-with/

That's a great article. I am printing it out and taking it to several friends offices in a few minutes, thanks for forwarding it. A leader in our firm is past her mid-40s and just had her first child, and she has said many times that she was completely not understanding of the demands of her female associates who were balancing family obligations until this statge in her life.

And... find a place to swim outside every day! We joined a club that has an outdoor heated pool and my DH swims outside every night - it is kept around 85-87 right now and the outside temps are in the teens and 20s. I do it but only once it hits 50.

[AnnieW625]

This article just popped up in my Facebook feed and I thought it was appropriate.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/03/female-company-president-im-sorry-to-all-the-mothers-i-used-to-work-with/
Yes it was okay, but I wonder if as a new working mother (first at 28, and then at 32) how I would have felt walking into an office and having an early 20 something prodigy as my manager/CEO, and tell me something about being a new mother and trying to balance things with a newborn or 4 mos. old coming right off maternity leave? I commend the author for being good at what she does, but I know for sure she definitely would have left a bad taste in my mouth if she had tried to pull that tactic with me (ESP. fresh out of college), but I do like now that she is sorry for how she treated people now that she is in her early 30s.

I get irritated with my own boss who is 51 yr. old man (and has three kids (15, 13, and 11) and a wife that works part time so his kids can get from point A to point B) from time to time, but at our end of the year lunch he did mention to me that he wasn't sure how I did everything including working around a schedule with a husband whose hours are slightly less flexibile than mine. I told him simply that working part time had never been an option and after working for him for 8/1/2 yrs. I think he finally got it.

I will contribute my work story when I have access to a physical keyboard.....hopefully tonight wheb I get home. I started to respond to this post on Sunday AM and never finished it.

[Mopey]

This article just popped up in my Facebook feed and I thought it was appropriate.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/03/female-company-president-im-sorry-to-all-the-mothers-i-used-to-work-with/

She gets credit from me certainly - to not only completely admit your fault and wrong-doing but to go out there and find a way to help start changing the system? Bravo.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

A few things I wanted to respond to. First, we outsource a ton. I have never been a cleaner. We have a housekeeper come at least 2 days a week, and someone else comes in and does laundry and sometimes runs some other errands a day or two a week. We outsource pretty much all yard care too. I found this thread interesting in that I think some peopel equate quitting working with cleaning the house. That thought has never crossed my mind.

.

Well i think this is because the vast majority of people cannot afford to quit their jobs (or go part-time) AND hire lots of outside help (housekeeping, errands, help with laundry, etc). I think it is an awesome luxury to be able to outsource tons of regular help and SAH, but I don't think it is the financial reality for most people, even on here. I know that if I decided to go part-time, we would not be able to afford help on a daily/weekly basis.

And I am fully aware that things get busier when kids start elementary school..I was just pointing out especially to basil and maybe OP and others about how many things (like the evening scramble after getting home) do get easier when kids are a little older. My two are much easier now that they can play together on their own while I make dinner, for example..whereas before when they were infants/toddlers it was nearly impossible. That and having to watch them more closely/intervene often just limited what I could get done in the evenings, especially if I was by myself and DH was traveling.

Anyway, believe me I am totally aware how things are going to get busier once kids are in elem school due to homework and activities..that is the whole reason DH & I decided to move this summer so that we wouldn't have rotten commutes once DS starts school. I know there are going to be half-days, early dismissals, school events, student holidays and the like..for me personally (and for DH as well) it wouldn't so hard to deal with if we didn't both work so far away (e.g. attending a school event in middle of the day would take 1 hour a lone just in driving). Right now I do have several co-workers here who have 3+ kids in elem/middle/high school and who do seem to manage pretty well working FT, so I think it is totally doable long-term in my situation at least with my 2.

[lyt202]

Thanks for starting the discussion. My friends and I have been talking about this same issue and trying to figure out how to have flexibility and interesting and rewarding work that we enjoy. It's a tough balance.

I'm a government attorney now but in a position with no flexibility. Right now I work until 6:00 pm and am lucky to be home by 6:45 which gives me a little over an hour with DS before bedtime. It's not enough but I worry that if I leave for private practice, I'll have to work even more, especially during the initial period when I would need to prove myself and build a practice. Right now the nighttime scramble is real and it's awful. DH works similar hours at a new position, so no flexibility, and we are on the go from the moment we walk into the door until bedtime.

My friends who have multiple kids in elementary school have it even tougher since they are juggling schoolwork and activities with multiple children. I would love a job doing what I do where I could leave at 3:00 to pick up DS from school and do more work after dinner. I just can't figure out how to find that job.

[niccig]

And I am fully aware that things get busier when kids start elementary school..I was just pointing out especially to basil and maybe OP and others about how many things (like the evening scramble after getting home) do get easier when kids are a little older. My two are much easier now that they can play together on their own while I make dinner, for example..whereas before when they were infants/toddlers it was nearly impossible. That and having to watch them more closely/intervene often just limited what I could get done in the evenings, especially if I was by myself and DH was traveling.

Enjoy the easier time now, as it will go away again with school. The first few years weren't too bad, but it's hitting us now DS is in 4th grade. Last night, I got DS from school aftercare, quick snack as basketball practice starts 30 mins later. We get home from practice and it's 8pm. DS, who has told me he had done his homework at aftercare, asked for help with a project that was due the next day. A project that he had brought home over the weekend, but forgot to tell us about, eventhough we asked if he had anything to do (note to self to check backpack ourselves). So at 8pm he needs to get started. DH had just walked in from work. Dinner needed to be made as well. Oh, and I had a few hours of work ahead of me for a class and need to get up at 5.30 for internship at a hospital.

Yep, evening scramble sucks.

[egoldber]

Well, ms pacman, I'll give you some hope. :) I don't find my evenings that frantic anymore. I also have ZERO trouble walking in the door and not thinking about work. I've always done that. Work is work and home is home.

I found that when older DD was in elementary school it was a scramble in the evenings, but I am not finding it that hard with younger DD, even though I now work full time. This struck me the other day, and I was trying to think about why. I have realized a big part of it is me. I don't stress as much about every scrap of homework being done, or if something gets forgotten. Things happen. Forgotten homework is also a valuable lesson, and better to learn that lesson in elementary school when the grades don't count.

The other thing I realized is that with older DD, we did a lot of activities that were relatively far away (20-40 minute drives). I now strictly limit activities to things within a 10 minutes drive from my house. Younger DD does most of her activities at after care. I know that we are fortunate that we live in an area with a lot of opportunities and choices, so I don't feel like they are missing out anything with this rule. We also don't do team sports, so I am not at the mercy of someone else's practice schedule. We can choose activities or not based on their convenience to us.

And I do think that a lot of it boils down to choices. As a WOHM my kids simply can't do as many different things or have as much choice as they might have. But I don't know that this is a bad thing on balance. I don't think it's healthy for a family's schedule to revolve around kid activities. I think this is also another up side to me working. When *I* was a SAHM, *I* tended to obsess over a lot of things that I now realize were details. I have a compulsive personality type, so that's just how I roll. Being busy mentally with work is good for me. It keeps a lot of those more compulsive tendencies channeled into work and not into my kids. Which is, I think, a lot healthier for them. :o

[niccig]

We only allow DS to do one activity. He plays different sports depending on the season. Basketball and soccer are fine. It's little league that's been difficult to coordinate. Now that he's older, practices are after 6pm, which works out. It's the mid week game at 4.30. I would have to leave at 3.30 to get DS to the game, so it's not going to happen.

Now that DS is in 4th grade more work is sent home to be completed. Not sure if it's the teacher or more work, but there isn't much notice to get it done.


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[Philly Mom]

That's a great article. I am printing it out and taking it to several friends offices in a few minutes, thanks for forwarding it. A leader in our firm is past her mid-40s and just had her first child, and she has said many times that she was completely not understanding of the demands of her female associates who were balancing family obligations until this statge in her life.

And... find a place to swim outside every day! We joined a club that has an outdoor heated pool and my DH swims outside every night - it is kept around 85-87 right now and the outside temps are in the teens and 20s. I do it but only once it hits 50.

My father said the same thing to me recently after watching what I go through. And I wish I could find an outdoor pool. If we move to Florida it will be top on my list.



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[Philly Mom]

ms.pacman[emoji813];4091693]Well i think this is because the vast majority of people cannot afford to quit their jobs (or go part-time) AND hire lots of outside help (housekeeping, errands, help with laundry, etc). I think it is an awesome luxury to be able to outsource tons of regular help and SAH, but I don't think it is the financial reality for most people, even on here. I know that if I decided to go part-time, we would not be able to afford help on a daily/weekly basis.

And I am fully aware that things get busier when kids start elementary school..I was just pointing out especially to basil and maybe OP and others about how many things (like the evening scramble after getting home) do get easier when kids are a little older. My two are much easier now that they can play together on their own while I make dinner, for example..whereas before when they were infants/toddlers it was nearly impossible. That and having to watch them more closely/intervene often just limited what I could get done in the evenings, especially if I was by myself and DH was traveling.

Anyway, believe me I am totally aware how things are going to get busier once kids are in elem school due to homework and activities..that is the whole reason DH & I decided to move this summer so that we wouldn't have rotten commutes once DS starts school. I know there are going to be half-days, early dismissals, school events, student holidays and the like..for me personally (and for DH as well) it wouldn't so hard to deal with if we didn't both work so far away (e.g. attending a school event in middle of the day would take 1 hour a lone just in driving). Right now I do have several co-workers here who have 3+ kids in elem/middle/high school and who do seem to manage pretty well working FT, so I think it is totally doable long-term in my situation at least with my 2.

I agree with a lot of this. If I didn't work, we would probably cut the extras. I also know that each month my kids get easier. DH is traveling this week and my kids will play for 15 minutes while I heat up dinner. Even 5 months ago I couldn't do that.



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[Philly Mom]

One more thing I wanted to add...

DD1 was talking about DH's business trip. I told her that I will be going on one soon. She said: "I didn't know girls went on business trips."


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