Teaching DD1 to be truthful and accountable

[wendibird22]

Need suggestions as I'm out of ideas on dealing with DD1s lying and complete inability to accept responsibility for even the most minor of things. She's 7.5 and in 2nd grade. She's always been this way. At a younger age I chocked it up to developmentally appropriate and teachable moments. But now I feel like we should be past this.

For example, this morning she was playing with a retractable pencil and DH noticed all the lead was out. He asked her what happened to the lead. Without hesitation she said she didn't know. DH responded that she was playing with it so she must know where it fell out and he wanted to know so it wouldn't make a mess in the carpet. She responded that she didn't know and it wasn't her fault in a very defensive tone. DH then pressed he issue that she wasn't telling the truth and to be honest about what happened. She then finally admitted that she took the eraser off and all the lead fell out. DH then made a point to say he was disappointed that she lied and that the consequence was no more retractable pencils today (she had asked DH to buy more at the store today which originally he agreed to) and that this was the result of her not being honest and not because she made a mistake.

This is how every conversation goes where she's made a mistake. Without even a bit of hesitation she denies she did anything and sticks with that until we get angry and make a huge deal about our disappointment with lying and then she'll finally be honest. She's never punished for the mistake only the lying. You'd think by now she'd have caught on. And it's such stupid little stuff. Clearly she doesn't want to be wrong. And yet she's not a perfectionist about other things.

We've tried having conversations about building trust. DH used he example of Jenga where each lie is a Jenga piece she removes and that makes the structure of trust tippy. She totally got the analogy.

So at wits end here. Any suggestions? We are at the point of not trusting her first response ever and that's not healthy.


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[ged]

Don't have advice, as I'm dealing with this as well with my just turned 10 year old. However, I just wanted to say the I love your DH's Jenga analogy!

[calebsmama03]

No sounds advice, but hugs and commiseration because this is exactly how ds1 (just turned 12) is. When he was younger he'd usually crack pretty early on. As he has gotten older he tends to hang onto the lie much longer and make up other lies to support the original one. :( we have tried all the things you have. The rule in our house is that a lie always makes it worse no matter what and that when you lie there is always a punishment, even if the original offense wasn't something we would have punished for. We took Love and Logic classes and implemented the strategies with him. Nada. We also use the analogy of building a house - the foundation is trust and every lie removes a brick of trust so even doing good things later (putting bricks o n top) won't help if the trust has been removed. He also developed some anger management issues so we ended up putting him in play therapy for a while. It helped the anger issues a bit, but the lying is still a huge issue. We recently discovered he has an underlying diagnosis that co ponds the lying behaviors so we are still in the thick of it here. He is old enough that he is wanting independence and can look forward to the age of driving and hanging out at the mall so we drip equerry talk to him about how his decisions now will affect our ability to trust him when he wants more independence. I feel like it is only just now starting to click. It hasn't prevented the lying yet, but hopefully it will.

One thing we do, on rec of the therapist, is really emphasize the positive. So if he answers a questin truthfully right away we make a big deal of how we are proud he made a good choice. When he does finally give up the truth on a lie, we make a big deal of thanking him and empathizing with his disappointment over the consequence ("I bet you're sad that you can't go to Xs house because of that lie? I'm really sad too, I know you were looking forward to it and I really wish I could send you, but it's my job as your mom to help you learn to make good choices." Etc. )

Keep at it. She is still pretty young so hopefully will grow out of it soon and have her "lightbulb" moment about lie=punishment. Good luck!!

[MamaMolly]

Lula has a strong 'not me' or 'its not my fault' reaction to things. We've just come out and said that if she tells the truth she won't be punished but if I think she's fibbing then there will be a punishment. Plus we caught her in a whopper last year and it was a HUGE deal, with big (for her) consequences, so now she's punishment avoidant. She knows we mean business.

[squimp]

I agree about rewarding the positive rather than punishing her mistakes. She has learned that she will get in trouble, so it makes more sense to hide the mistake (losing the pencil lead) than risk getting in trouble. I can understand her there. Catch her being good and reward the heck out of it. Reward her for telling you when she does something wrong or makes a mistake.

[twowhat?]

I have one child who is a truth-teller and one who will occasionally lie (though not to the extent of your DD)...but I've used "natural consequences" approaches for lying...

like for example:
"Did you wash your hands with soap?"
"Yes."
"OK, come here and let me smell them so I can be sure" (and if caught in a lie here, the consequence is me making her go back to wash hands properly with soap, and not trusting her the next time she says she washed them vs a "punishment") - basically letting her know I don't trust her answer because she has lied in the past. Having my trust seems to be a significant motivator here because having my trust also means I will allow them to work with paints without supervision, etc. Not having my trust means they don't get extra independence. And in this example she only lied a couple of times before catching on...then after that when I asked if she washed with soap she'd say "Yes, mom I did...do you want to smell my hands?" to which I would respond "No, I trust you this time."

Good luck, sounds so hard!!!

[wendibird22]

I agree about rewarding the positive rather than punishing her mistakes. She has learned that she will get in trouble, so it makes more sense to hide the mistake (losing the pencil lead) than risk getting in trouble. I can understand her there. Catch her being good and reward the heck out of it. Reward her for telling you when she does something wrong or makes a mistake.

Agreed. We wouldn't have punished the pencil lead. Not being able to buy new pencils was the consequence for lying. The excuse or diffusion of responsibility is so quick and impulsive that I know she's not even thinking that if she lies there will be a consequence. Then once it's out there she feels compelled to keep up the lie because then at that point she knows there's a consequence for lying. And I can't fault her for not wanting to get caught in the lie. The challenge for us then is to keep the impulsive deflecting from happening.


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[truly scrumptious]

How about giving her an out after that first impulsive response? Saying something like: why don't you think about it for a second and then tell me what really happened? If you did drop the pencil lead, I'd appreciate it if you could help me find it (and you won'yt get in trouble.) if you did drop it but don't tell me I'll be very disappointed and there will be consequences.
That way she has a chance to "remember" and correct herself before she feels committed to the lie.


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[mnj77]

How about giving her an out after that first impulsive response? Saying something like: why don't you think about it for a second and then tell me what really happened? If you did drop the pencil lead, I'd appreciate it if you could help me find it (and you won'yt get in trouble.) if you did drop it but don't tell me I'll be very disappointed and there will be consequences.
That way she has a chance to "remember" and correct herself before she feels committed to the lie.

You could couple this with trying not to give her the opportunity to lie, since it seems like she's gotten into that habit when confronted with a possible mistake. It would take some thought and practice to not ask her questions that would trigger the impulsive "not me" response, but it would be good to avoid having her reinforce that habit. So instead of asking about the lead, you could say "Hmm, the lead is gone. I don't want it to get ground into the carpet. You're great at finding small things - I bet you could help me find it!" If you can't figure out a way not to ask the question and you think she's going to lie, you could try saying, "I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to count to ten and then answer it truthfully. The truthful answer will not get you in trouble."

Finally, do you think she's sensitive to your disapproval, whether or not you give a consequence? Like, maybe you wouldn't punish her for the lead but you might be giving her the idea that you're frustrated or annoyed that she's always making mistakes? Maybe you could try pointing out your own mistakes and forgiving yourself for them out loud in front of her. And openly accepting and minimizing her mistakes - "oh, the lead fell out of this pencil. I always want to fiddle with the eraser and the lead falls out every time! Let's find the lead so it doesn't make a mess on the carpet."

[abh5e8]

You could couple this with trying not to give her the opportunity to lie, since it seems like she's gotten into that habit when confronted with a possible mistake. It would take some thought and practice to not ask her questions that would trigger the impulsive "not me" response, but it would be good to avoid having her reinforce that habit. So instead of asking about the lead, you could say "Hmm, the lead is gone. I don't want it to get ground into the carpet. You're great at finding small things - I bet you could help me find it!" If you can't figure out a way not to ask the question and you think she's going to lie, you could try saying, "I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to count to ten and then answer it truthfully. The truthful answer will not get you in trouble."

Finally, do you think she's sensitive to your disapproval, whether or not you give a consequence? Like, maybe you wouldn't punish her for the lead but you might be giving her the idea that you're frustrated or annoyed that she's always making mistakes? Maybe you could try pointing out your own mistakes and forgiving yourself for them out loud in front of her. And openly accepting and minimizing her mistakes - "oh, the lead fell out of this pencil. I always want to fiddle with the eraser and the lead falls out every time! Let's find the lead so it doesn't make a mess on the carpet."
Yes. All of this. To break the habit if the quick defensive lie, she needs a break from those questions. And when you do ask those questions, v give her a warning, ask to wait ten sec before and telling of consequences of lying. I agree that there is some point of her fear of your disapproval, b so maybe work on it from that angle? Kids are super sensitive, even to a fleeting expression on our face that we may not realize we are making.

[ahisma]

I'm still working on it with our SIXTEEN year old. It's been a challenge for years. All in all she's a great kid, but the dishonesty is really a dealbreaker in so many ways. We've worked with the school, with therapists, you name it. DH is a high school teacher (and has been for 15+ years) so it's not like we're new to teens (although this started around 6 or 7 - you'd think we'd have it beat by now). I guess my point is - don't give up until you sort it out, because it definistely doesn't sort itself out. It kills me to see her basically close doors on herself, because dishonesty really doesn't go over well in the world.

[wendibird22]

How about giving her an out after that first impulsive response? Saying something like: why don't you think about it for a second and then tell me what really happened? If you did drop the pencil lead, I'd appreciate it if you could help me find it (and you won'yt get in trouble.) if you did drop it but don't tell me I'll be very disappointed and there will be consequences.
That way she has a chance to "remember" and correct herself before she feels committed to the lie.


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I like this idea especially for these really minor things that I honestly don't expect her to lie about and yet she does. It gives her a chance to save face so to speak. I think for the bigger things that I know she'll lie about (we've had issues all 3 years of school about buying treats at lunchtime w/out asking or at least telling us she spent the $) I can plan ahead about how I phrase the question or don't even ask and just address the issue.

[123LuckyMom]

I like this idea especially for these really minor things that I honestly don't expect her to lie about and yet she does. It gives her a chance to save face so to speak. I think for the bigger things that I know she'll lie about (we've had issues all 3 years of school about buying treats at lunchtime w/out asking or at least telling us she spent the $) I can plan ahead about how I phrase the question or don't even ask and just address the issue.

It really is a good approach to give your DD a chance to be the hero instead of the mistake maker. I know you're getting angry and punishing for the lying and not the initial action, but from a kid's perspective, she's always doing something wrong and getting in trouble. She's really not emotionally sophisticated enough to recognize that trying to avoid the punishment is what is causing it, even though you explain that over and over. She just wants to be the good guy instead of the one who messes up. I promise you! I'd give her the chance to help without accusing. Instead of asking what happened to the lead, ask her to help you find it. You know she did it. There's no reason to ask her if she did. Just asking the question is triggering a defensive reaction in her, and she WILL lie, sometimes even if given the warning beforehand. I'd do everything I could to break the pattern and let her rebuild her self image and her image in your eyes as someone who helps fix problems (whether she created them or not) rather than someone who lies. With the treat issue, for example, don't ask her whether she did it. Just say, "You made the choice to buy a treat at school when you knew it was not allowed. If you were the mom trying to keep your child healthy, what would you do?" Or whatever. Just don't give her the chance to lie, concentrate on breaking your cycles of behavior, give her lots of chances to be the hero, and the lying will drop away as her defensiveness lessens.