Help with DS behavioral issues

[Myira]

I just got a call from DS's preschool teacher that he is being defiant. She said that at lunch they stop their work and she turns the lights off at which point all kids freeze and head to lunch I suppose. So DS refused to freeze and then proceeded to scream when requested to do so. Then again at naptime another teacher sent him out in the hallway since she said he was disturbing other kids. What I understood from the teacher is that he was simply screaming in the hallway. She said he wasn't in any pain. He asked the teacher if he could go for extended day and she said it was a gift and since he mis-behaved he would not go. (DS goes to a Montessori based preschool and this year has been doing extended day where kids that are older only an hour of naptime and then do some Montessori work with the teacher.)

I am not sure why DS would keep screaming, just seems absurd. He is not exactly an angel at home and these days is extremely whiny in the evenings. We can get him to stop whining only if me or DH sit in the living room and read to him or play with him which is really difficult to do on weekdays when there is dinner to be gotten on the table and bath and bedtime routines. I was not expecting him to act out at school though.

I must admit we struggle with non-compliance at home all the time and probably posted about it a while back.

The teacher also said that he sings a lot (DS loves to sing, and mostly he is imitating DD who is the singer in our house) rather than interact with other kids, also she can tell "he is in his head a lot". I am not sure what to say to this, and how that is bad in particular.

I have often wondered if he is bored at school. He talks about going to Jr Kg. in DD's school a lot. He is extremely interested doing "studies" with me. He hates naptime and we cannot get him to take a nap at home on weekends.
What do you guys think? I am at a loss what we should do at this point.

[megs4413]

Please feel free to disregard my thoughts. You know your child and your unique situation. No mommy drive by's here...

BUT

He's 4, right? Why is he napping? I can't even fathom it. Maybe it's just me, but my kids stopped napping between 2 and 3 years of age. How does he sleep at night? What time does he go to bed and what time does he wake up? If he's getting between 10 and 12 hours of good sleep overnight, there's no physiological need for him to nap at this point.

If it's a montessori type school, I assume that there's a lot of "child led" play-based learning going on. I wonder if he needs a little more structure? It sounds like he likes the idea of "real school" like your DD's jr K. It also sounds like he's feeling misunderstood at school.

What I'm noting from what you said is this:
-he is struggling to engage with same age peers
-he craves one on one interaction with brain stimulating activity from an adult in the evenings
-he is struggling to manage his behavior
-he is regularly isolated and out of sync at school

Is he dealing with above-average intelligence? Do you have any reason to believe he has advanced cognitive abilities for his age? Do you have a consistent discipline technique implemented at home to deal with his non-compliance? What is the discipline strategy at school?

[squimp]

Is it a Montessori school? Montessori does not have play-based learning. It is about "work", which means kids use the Montessori material to do specific things. Montessori classrooms tend to have 24 preschoolers in a room with one or two teachers. They work because kids do as they are supposed to do. It can be great for some kids. However, for some kids it can be soul crushing, especially if they are very fixed about the "work" aspect. My DD was found the Montessori emphasis on compliance very hard. She made it work at school but was often whiny at home, which I came to learn was a bad sign. We left as soon as we could find a good alternative, an excellent play-based school where she thrived.

Every preschool we attended had some kind of quiet time after lunch. My DD did not nap but was allowed to quietly read or do a puzzle as long as she didn't move from her map and disturb others. It was hard for her but the teachers at her preschool would make it work.

In my opinion, if the preschool is having discipline problems with a 4-year-old that do not involve hitting or biting, something is wrong with the school. To me, it sounds like a question of fit. I would give it some time, see how he feels over time. He may just require some time to adjust to the new system. If they keep reporting this, I would ask what they would like from you. I would also start looking around for other preschool options.

[jren]

My first thoughts were in line with transition issues. To me, flipping a light out and expecting all kids to freeze and switch gears seems a bit ridiculous. I'm sure many kids can, but some can't.

For naps, my DS stopped napping by 2. His TK did have a nap time since it was a full day school. DS hated it and the only time he ever got in trouble all year was at nap time.

From my experience with my DS, when he's not being intellectually stimulated enough at school, he is more needy at home. Talks nonstop, can't go to sleep at night, asks tons of questions. It seems if he's struggling, and they are then taking away the extra learning opportunity, that's going to make things worse.

I'm going to go with this school isn't a good fit. More structure may help with the transitions during the school day. And maybe a more academically challenging environment? Both of my DCs are a dream at school but have had compliance issues at home. Major ones with my DD and she's never made a peep at school. So I don't know that it's necessarily a home thing. I'd probably make a point not to give in to the whining at home though. But that's easier said than done!


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[LBW]

I agree re: transition issues. I'd ask the teachers to take him aside and explain the lights out process to him. Maybe "practice" it a bit so that he understands.

Re: naptime, he may just not be tired. Can they offer a book or some quiet work that he can do at his mat? Again, I'd ask them to talk to him about it well before naptime so that they have a plan everyone agrees with. My DS2 and DS3 hate it when they are called out as doing something different from the rest of the class, so pulling them out into the hallway for being restless at naptime may very well have caused them to scream. It may make him feel anxious and embarrassed which comes across as defiant.

[echoesofspring]

My son is a couple months older than yours. We switched out of a Montessori school earlier in the summer, I posted here seeking advice, you can search for past threads if you are curious about your experience. He also was very interested in attending kindergarten, and from what a teacher confided in me, was bored with the works and pretty much on par with the kids going off to K. We've switched to a play based program and he's a different kid, so much happier. And also not getting injured. I wasn't getting reports of bad behavior but I was getting accident reports. In hindsight I think many of the accidents were him releasing pent up energy, misbehaving b/c he was bored, finished with his work, etc.

We are struggling at home with a bunch of defiant behaviors, but they don't seem related to or occurring at school. From what I hear from other moms, defiance is part of being 4. Naps for us depend on the day. I wouldn't mind dropping them but he's a wreck without them and it doesn't seem to change when he falls asleep. YMMV.

W/respect to the screaming, lights out and freezing seems like a really abrupt way to transition if there aren't any warnings ahead of time. Like if you know it's coming it could be fun, if you were engrossed in something it could be upsetting. My DS can get really caught up in what he's doing, it's an issue getting his to stop building something he's involved in, etc. I could see him getting ticked if someone suddenly killed the lights.

[hillview]

Ds1 was great in Montessori. Ds2 was not. I might consider a different more play based school? If your mommy gut is saying something is off about ds then maybe seek more advice from a pedi

[DualvansMommy]

My first thoughts were in line with transition issues. To me, flipping a light out and expecting all kids to freeze and switch gears seems a bit ridiculous. I'm sure many kids can, but some can't.

For naps, my DS stopped napping by 2. His TK did have a nap time since it was a full day school. DS hated it and the only time he ever got in trouble all year was at nap time.

From my experience with my DS, when he's not being intellectually stimulated enough at school, he is more needy at home. Talks nonstop, can't go to sleep at night, asks tons of questions. It seems if he's struggling, and they are then taking away the extra learning opportunity, that's going to make things worse.

I'm going to go with this school isn't a good fit. More structure may help with the transitions during the school day. And maybe a more academically challenging environment? Both of my DCs are a dream at school but have had compliance issues at home. Major ones with my DD and she's never made a peep at school. So I don't know that it's necessarily a home thing. I'd probably make a point not to give in to the whining at home though. But that's easier said than done!


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This was DS1 most of it at his old preschool. He HATED nap/quiet time every day and was especially whiny in evenings. Craved constant stimulation, tons and tons of questions and wanting 3-4 books even when he was dead tired. It was as if he wanted to squeeze in all the fun learning, questioning and natural playtime in the few hours at home.

We switched him to more of a traditional play based preschool this year. Big major improvement in DS1; engages with us well daily after school, only whines when he's hungry or tired vs constantly. For us, it was more of wrong fit vs behavioral issues, and it only emerged last year which we suspected that he was getting bored and acting up mentally. We just didn't realize HOW bored he was though! And he stopped napping immediately after his 3rd birthday.




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[basil]

Ah, I am so happy to read this even though I have no advice. My DS is the same age and has many of the same problems. We try to get by without a nap but it's murder to do so. DS sleeps at night only from 8pm-5am and I haven't in 4 straight years gotten him to sleep past 5 am so I feel stuck struggling for the nap.

He isn't in Montessori but has had some behavior issues at school and at home. Yesterday he ran around the yard away from us until he could run no more. His teacher thinks he is bright but he struggles to follow along with circle time and class projects etc because he wants to do his own thing. At home, he wants attention constantly. If he doesn't get it he is likely to lash out at 1 year old DD which is the fastest way to make me lose it.

I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe it's just part of being a 4 year old boy for some kids.

[Simon]

IDK, much of what you describe sounds like temperament. Turning off lights to gain kids' attention before a transition isn't exactly a Montessori specific technique. You'd be likely to find it many places and if the root of the issue is bristling over an interruption by authority, then that won't necessarily go away in a new preK school. I'm not saying it won't/can't, but it sounds like these behaviors aren't isolated to school time.

We have some very lovely friends whose kids have been absolute nightmares in that age range. Old enough to argue, reason, refuse to comply and too big to easily pick up and physically enforce directions. They attended all range of pre-schools and the thing that seemed to help most was very experienced and patient teachers, regardless of the school's specialty (play based, church, Montessori, Waldorf, etc.). I would want to conference with the teacher(s) and ask if this is something new they are seeing, how do they usually respond, what are some goals you would like to set for Ds, etc. I don't think switching schools is a bad idea, but I'd want to know a lot more about what isn't working before looking around.

[Myira]

I just got around to reading all the replies. Thanks to each and everyone of you, I am going to read everything again and mull over it. I had been feeling so disturbed since I got that call at work, I just couldn't focus after that and could not wait to go pick him up. The image of him screaming in the hallway all alone just made me want to ball up and cry.

Well most of you have confirmed what my gut tells me, that he is bored and not getting the learning and stimulation he is looking for. One of you mentioned your child in a similar situation with preschool would then want to squeeze all of those experience in the few hours at home and that exactly seems to be the case with DS. My mind is almost made up in that we need to move him. He could start at my DD's school in Jr K. Thing is we were planning to hold him back, since we feel he isn't ready for K next year. I just have a feeling he will thrive in that environment, we'd need to explore that. My DH was not on board with starting him in JK this year, so I'll have to convince him. I don't really have any other preschool I like at the moment to move him to.

In the meantime I called the pedi and we have an appointment coming up so that we can discuss some of the concerns. The on-call nurse seemed to indicate that the doctor was very much of the opinion that we could meet with a psychologist if necessary..



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