What is your opinion of this? Is this fair?

[Corie]

A transgender boy wins Texas state girls wrestling title

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/18767310/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-euless-trinity-wins-texas-state-girls-wrestling-title?addata=espn:frontpage


A transgender girl places in Alaska state track meet in girls' 100m

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/transgender-track-athlete-makes-history-as-controversy-stirs-around-her



What do you think? Is this fair?

[Kindra178]

In the wrestling example, the child was born a girl so has to wrestle girls even though he would rather wrestle boys. Why is that not fair? Frankly, I would think it wouldn't be fair the other way.


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[Corie]

In the wrestling example, the child was born a girl so has to wrestle girls even though he would rather wrestle boys. Why is that not fair? Frankly, I would think it wouldn't be fair the other way.





I took this quote from the article.

"A 17-year-old transgender boy completed an undefeated season Saturday by winning a controversial Texas state girls' wrestling title in an event clouded by criticism from those who believe the testosterone he's taking as he transitions from female to male created an unfair advantage."

Does the testosterone create an unfair advantage?

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Men are generally faster runners by about 10% from the articles I googled. I am sure this won't be a popular opinion but I am saying unfair.

[Corie]

Men are generally faster runners by about 10% from the articles I googled. I am sure this won't be a popular opinion but I am saying unfair.

I agree with you. I also think it is unfair.

[PZMommy]

I think it is unfair because she was taking testosterone. Any other wrestler would have been banned and not allowed to wrestle if they were caught taking testosterone.

[turtledove]

I think it is unfair because she was taking testosterone. Any other wrestler would have been banned and not allowed to wrestle if they were caught taking testosterone.
:yeahthat:

[TwinFoxes]

I think it was unfair to the wrestler that he couldn't wrestle against the gender he identifies with. It's not like he's thinking "score, I beat the girls."

[Philly Mom]

I think it was unfair to the wrestler that he couldn't wrestle against the gender he identifies with. It's not like he's thinking "score, I beat the girls."

I agree.


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[mmsmom]

This post reminded me of this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html?_r=0

In general I think athletes should compete as the gender they identify with but this can also be really complicated. Someone taking testosterone has an unfair advantage. I'm not sure what the fair solution would be.

[rin]

I think it is unfair because she was taking testosterone. Any other wrestler would have been banned and not allowed to wrestle if they were caught taking testosterone.


I think it was unfair to the wrestler that he couldn't wrestle against the gender he identifies with. It's not like he's thinking "score, I beat the girls."

I agree with both of these points, this seems like a very unfair situation that was created by forcing the athlete to compete in the girls' wrestling group.

[squimp]

I think it was unfair to the wrestler that he couldn't wrestle against the gender he identifies with. It's not like he's thinking "score, I beat the girls."

I read several articles about this last night and I agree with this. Mack wanted to wrestle boys, the state regs would not let him.

[robinsmommy]

I read several articles about this last night and I agree with this. Mack wanted to wrestle boys, the state regs would not let him.

Yep. The article I read said that families and coaches were sticking the blame on the the administration/board/creators of the "rules" - that Mack was just trying to be himself and had to play by the rules created. I agree with that assessment - there was no other option open for him short of not wrestling, which doesn't seem fair, either. This is probably going to end up being just as big a mess as the bathroom bills.

[petesgirl]

Men are generally faster runners by about 10% from the articles I googled. I am sure this won't be a popular opinion but I am saying unfair.

I'm with you.

ETA: Hmm, I also see the other side of him not being able to wrestle with the guys. It seems he should have been allowed to do that. Could him taking Testosterone while wrestling with the guys still give him an unfair advantage though? Like in the unlikely scenario that he was taking more testosterone than needed for a transition. I don't even know how that works...just thinking out loud...

[Pennylane]

I live in Texas so have been seeing a lot about this on the news lately. I think it's totally unfair to the girls he is wrestling against and he should have been put in the boys division or not been allowed to compete at all due to the testosterone use .

I watched an interview with a dad of one of the girls he had a match with and he said although he feels for him , it wasn't fair to his daughter that had worked hard for years to get to state and now was going to lose.

Ann


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[vonfirmath]

I live in Texas so have been seeing a lot about this on the news lately. I think it's totally unfair to the girls he is wrestling against and he should have been put in the boys division or not been allowed to compete at all due to the testosterone use .



Honestly, I'd ban any competitor from competing if they were taking drugs that give them an advantage, no matter what the reason is they are taking those drugs.

[JBaxter]

I'm with the opinion of those who say any drugs that give advantage should disqualify an athlete from competition.

[trcy]

Honestly, I'd ban any competitor from competing if they were taking drugs that give them an advantage, no matter what the reason is they are taking those drugs.


I'm with the opinion of those who say any drugs that give advantage should disqualify an athlete from competition.

What about Simone Biles and her ADHD medicine? Do you think she should have been disqualified too? http://abcnews.go.com/Health/simone-biles-adhd-meds-common-drugs-banned-olympics/story?id=42081189


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[JBaxter]

What about Simone Biles and her ADHD medicine? Do you think she should have been disqualified too? http://abcnews.go.com/Health/simone-biles-adhd-meds-common-drugs-banned-olympics/story?id=42081189


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If its a drug that alters the ability then there has to be rules. I know some asthma medications were banned also. Taking testosterone to transition gives that wrestler muscles not normally on girls/ women that age. It sets up unfair competition due to the drugs.

[anonomom]

It boggles my mind that anyone thinks this child should be punished for taking the drugs he needs to make his transition.

The whole issue could have been sidstepped by allowing the boy to compete against boys, instead of forcing him to compete against girls. As far as the testosterone, should we then also test every athlete for their testosterone levels and disqualify anyone with a higher-than-average result?

Seems pretty simple -- trust that he is taking the amount of drugs necessary and no more, unless and until there is a real reason to believe otherwise. If the state is really hell-bent on singling him out for different treatment, then make his doctor sign an affidavit certifying that the dosage is normal/appropriate for transitioning. But to stop him from competing just because people don't understand and don't appear to like Trans folks is just stunning in its lack of empathy.

[JBaxter]

I don't have lack of empathy it has to be an monumental choice to start transitioning but there is also empathy for the other girls who wrestled with someone with an unfair advantage due to his transition drugs building his muscles.

[anonomom]

I don't have lack of empathy it has to be an monumental choice to start transitioning but there is also empathy for the other girls who wrestled with someone with an unfair advantage due to his transition drugs building his muscles.

1. It wasn't his fault that he was forced to wrestle against girls;
2. on what do you base your assumption that he has an "unfair advantage?" Do you have evidence that he has a higher level of testosterone that all of the boys against whom he wished to compete? Or that his testosterone levels are abnormally high? If not, the objection is based in prejudice and is invalid.

[Pear]

if this wrestler should be competing with boys, then is the reverse true? Would a male wrestler taking drugs to appear more female be more appropriate competing against women?

For me I think this comes down to the fact that at this point we segregate sports by sex not for some arbitrary morality about the mixing of the sexes, but because females on average can't compete against males on average. Accepting the biological reality leads me to the conclusion that males should always compete with males regardless of gender. Regardless of gender identity, they have years of bone and muscle development that give them an advantage. Females taking hormones should also compete with males because the drugs may give them an advantage.

[JBaxter]

Never mind I'll walk away from this thread.

OP/ Corie I stated my opinion Thanks for posting the question

[123LuckyMom]

It boggles my mind that anyone thinks this child should be punished for taking the drugs he needs to make his transition.

The whole issue could have been sidstepped by allowing the boy to compete against boys, instead of forcing him to compete against girls. As far as the testosterone, should we then also test every athlete for their testosterone levels and disqualify anyone with a higher-than-average result?

Seems pretty simple -- trust that he is taking the amount of drugs necessary and no more, unless and until there is a real reason to believe otherwise. If the state is really hell-bent on singling him out for different treatment, then make his doctor sign an affidavit certifying that the dosage is normal/appropriate for transitioning. But to stop him from competing just because people don't understand and don't appear to like Trans folks is just stunning in its lack of empathy.

Exactly! All any of this is-- the bathrooms, the sports teams, all of it-- is an attempt to punish trans people for existing. They exist. The government and outraged people everywhere can't make them not exist by being cruel. One should not make a rule that a boy can't play on a boy's team and then punish the boy for being a boy competing against girls. For the love of God, and I mean that quite literally, let the boy be who he is and play on the team of his gender, which is, whether others like it or not, male. So yes, I think these situations are cruelly and intentionally unfair to all involved, and the solution is extremely easy. Ask people their gender. Let them be who they are when they pee and when they play. If we would butt the heck out of their business, we could stop being outraged, and trans people could stop being persecuted for existing.


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[anonomom]

if this wrestler should be competing with boys, then is the reverse true? Would a male wrestler taking drugs to appear more female be more appropriate competing against women?

For me I think this comes down to the fact that at this point we segregate sports by sex not for some arbitrary morality about the mixing of the sexes, but because females on average can't compete against males on average. Accepting the biological reality leads me to the conclusion that males should always compete with males regardless of gender. Regardless of gender identity, they have years of bone and muscle development that give them an advantage. Females taking hormones should also compete with males because the drugs may give them an advantage.

Yes, a trans woman should compete against women.

[nfowife]

Exactly! All any of this is-- the bathrooms, the sports teams, all of it-- is an attempt to punish trans people for existing. They exist. The government and outraged people everywhere can't make them not exist by being cruel. One should not make a rule that a boy can't play on a boy's team and then punish the boy for being a boy competing against girls. For the love of God, and I mean that quite literally, let the boy be who he is and play on the team of his gender, which is, whether others like it or not, male. So yes, I think these situations are cruelly and intentionally unfair to all involved, and the solution is extremely easy. Ask people their gender. Let them be who they are when they pee and when they play. If we would butt the heck out of their business, we could stop being outraged, and trans people could stop being persecuted for existing.


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:yeahthat:

[Corie]

First, I want to state that I am not against transgender individuals. I have no hate or dislike. I actually think it's great.

But, in the 2 sports situations that I posted, I am having problems with the situations.

I do feel that it was unfair that Mack couldn't wrestle against boys. I think that it really sucks because Mack is a boy and he wanted
to wrestle the boys. But, it is also extremely unfair to all the girls he wrestled against and beat. Mack is taking testosterone. It gives
him an unfair advantage in wrestling the girls. It just does. The answer in this situation is to let him wrestle the boys. For me, that's
an easy solution. But obviously the Texas school system doesn't agree with me.

The Alaskan teen who is transitioning to a girl is a harder situation for me. I feel like she should still be competing against boys. Even though
he is transitioning to a girl. That's my opinion.

It doesn't mean that I hate transgender folks. It doesn't mean that I'm cruel.

[Meatball Mommie]

Men are generally faster runners by about 10% from the articles I googled. I am sure this won't be a popular opinion but I am saying unfair.


I think it is unfair because she was taking testosterone. Any other wrestler would have been banned and not allowed to wrestle if they were caught taking testosterone.



Yes, to both of these. Unfair advantage. Does it stink for the person competing, yes? They can't really compete against either gender fairly imo.

[minnie-zb]

According to the article in the Washington Post, his testosterone tested within the allowable limits.

I think the rules stink and he should have been competing with the boys. Ultimately I hold the organizers of the event at fault.

Mack and the Girls were both put in an unfair situation.

[MamaSnoo]

IOC has looked at this issue in detail, and also looked at the issue of medical problems in women that create unusually high levels of testosterone.
USATF has a nice statement (http://www.usatf.org/About/Privacy---Other-Policies/Transgender-Transsexual.aspx)on their website about balancing fairness in competition with respect for privacy and an individual's identity/autonomy (and I link to IOC included).
NCAA has a detailed policy (https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf)on this.

It would make sense for the HS level regulating bodies in states to take guidance from the rules already established by the larger organizations which address this in even more highly competitive athletes, particularly as these are the rules that these student athletes will play under as they move from HS to college or beyond.

The transgender boy who wanted to wrestle and who was taking testosterone should be able to wrestle with boys. The respects his identity and his opportunity to participate, and also promotes fairness to the female wrestlers.

Taking testosterone for a real medical indication is not doping, and people with medical conditions should be able to participate in sport (if healthy enough and they want to). Generally, male athletes at the HS level who need testosterone treatment (there are congenital medical conditions where boys are born without testes; pituitary disorders may result in low or absent testosterone production in teen boys, some survivors of pediatric cancer have poorly functioning testes) are not excluded from participation.

Transgender girls create a slightly more difficult situation logistically, as their naturally higher levels of testosterone could be an advantage over cisgender girls. Requiring transgender girls to take medical treatments which lower testosterone and to document their low testosterone is one way to create fairness on both sides (a transgender girl with low testosterone could be unfairly disadvantaged if made to compete with boys, just as cisgender girls could be disadvantaged if competing with a transgender girl who still has testosterone in the adult male range). However, requiring athletes to provide all this documentation does impact their privacy. So, these types of policies tend to value fair competition over privacy.

(In the above, I use the term transgender boy to refer to a person with female biological sex, assigned female at birth, but with male gender identity, and I generally use male pronouns in this context. Cisgender boy refers to a person with male biological sex, assigned male at birth, and with male gender identity. The converse applies. This construct is quite binary and may not fully address the needs of student athletes whose gender identity is more fluid. Just want to acknowledge that gender is not fully binary).

[bisous]

IOC has looked at this issue in detail, and also looked at the issue of medical problems in women that create unusually high levels of testosterone.
USATF has a nice statement (http://www.usatf.org/About/Privacy---Other-Policies/Transgender-Transsexual.aspx)on their website about balancing fairness in competition with respect for privacy and an individual's identity/autonomy (and I link to IOC included).
NCAA has a detailed policy (https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf)on this.

It would make sense for the HS level regulating bodies in states to take guidance from the rules already established by the larger organizations which address this in even more highly competitive athletes, particularly as these are the rules that these student athletes will play under as they move from HS to college or beyond.

The transgender boy who wanted to wrestle and who was taking testosterone should be able to wrestle with boys. The respects his identity and his opportunity to participate, and also promotes fairness to the female wrestlers.

Taking testosterone for a real medical indication is not doping, and people with medical conditions should be able to participate in sport (if healthy enough and they want to). Generally, male athletes at the HS level who need testosterone treatment (there are congenital medical conditions where boys are born without testes; pituitary disorders may result in low or absent testosterone production in teen boys, some survivors of pediatric cancer have poorly functioning testes) are not excluded from participation.

Transgender girls create a slightly more difficult situation logistically, as their naturally higher levels of testosterone could be an advantage over cisgender girls. Requiring transgender girls to take medical treatments which lower testosterone and to document their low testosterone is one way to create fairness on both sides (a transgender girl with low testosterone could be unfairly disadvantaged if made to compete with boys, just as cisgender girls could be disadvantaged if competing with a transgender girl who still has testosterone in the adult male range). However, requiring athletes to provide all this documentation does impact their privacy. So, these types of policies tend to value fair competition over privacy.

(In the above, I use the term transgender boy to refer to a person with female biological sex, assigned female at birth, but with male gender identity, and I generally use male pronouns in this context. Cisgender boy refers to a person with male biological sex, assigned male at birth, and with male gender identity. The converse applies. This construct is quite binary and may not fully address the needs of student athletes whose gender identity is more fluid. Just want to acknowledge that gender is not fully binary).

Yeah, I think that makes it more fair. It sounds like good policy to follow the NCAA.

I don't know. Part of me thinks that just having "mens" and "womens" competition pools sets up some pretty firm divides. It seems a little discordant with the idea that gender is a continuum. I feel like there will inevitably be a harsh collide there at some point. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[vonfirmath]

What about Simone Biles and her ADHD medicine? Do you think she should have been disqualified too? http://abcnews.go.com/Health/simone-biles-adhd-meds-common-drugs-banned-olympics/story?id=42081189


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if they give an advantage-yes

[AnnieW625]

Yes sadly I do with the Alaska runner, but I immediately thought of those communist block athletes in the Cold War era who were doing the same thing with testosterone and didn't get caught for years. Most of them were swimmers, but still an endurance sport.

I feel that in the wrestling case he should've had the chance to wrestle with boys. 20+ yrs. ago we didn't have girls wrestling at my high school and a few girls I know wrestled; most of them in the lower weight classes because we didn't have enough boys to compete in that weight class. Kind of the same story when a girl plays the kicker or punter on the football team.


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[anonomom]

if they give an advantage-yes

I think I disagree. If a person is taking medication to deal with an actual problem, then that fact should not disqualify them from competing against others, even if the drug they take has an incidental effect of giving them some kind of edge.

The way I see it, we all have a particular set of challenges and talents. Some kids are terribly uncoordinated (like I was) or lack drive or are otherwise not particularly suited to athletic competition. That doesn't mean that kids who are suited to athletic competition have an unfair advantage. Similarly, some of us have conditions that are helped or cured by medication; the mere fact that the medication might provide help elsewhere doesn't make any edge they impart "unfair." Unless and until there's evidence that a particular athlete (or any other competitor) is taking drugs for the specific purpose of enhancing their performance, it makes sense to me to trust that they and their doctors know what is right for their own bodies, and let the competitive chips fall where they may.

[bisous]

I get a little wary when talking about medications and unfair advantage. I have a child with type 1 diabetes and without insulin he will die within days. Sometimes insulin can be used to build bulk so I know kids in some sports who have been teased for using insulin. The specific instance I recall was from a child that was involved with dirt bike riding. Apparently insulin is used for building bulk and some people in that sport abuse it. I'm completely unfamiliar with the validity of that claim. I only know that a parent friend from a forum like this had that situation happen to their child.

[chlobo]

never mind

[wendibird22]

It boggles my mind that anyone thinks this child should be punished for taking the drugs he needs to make his transition.

The whole issue could have been sidstepped by allowing the boy to compete against boys, instead of forcing him to compete against girls. As far as the testosterone, should we then also test every athlete for their testosterone levels and disqualify anyone with a higher-than-average result?

Seems pretty simple -- trust that he is taking the amount of drugs necessary and no more, unless and until there is a real reason to believe otherwise. If the state is really hell-bent on singling him out for different treatment, then make his doctor sign an affidavit certifying that the dosage is normal/appropriate for transitioning. But to stop him from competing just because people don't understand and don't appear to like Trans folks is just stunning in its lack of empathy.


Exactly! All any of this is-- the bathrooms, the sports teams, all of it-- is an attempt to punish trans people for existing. They exist. The government and outraged people everywhere can't make them not exist by being cruel. One should not make a rule that a boy can't play on a boy's team and then punish the boy for being a boy competing against girls. For the love of God, and I mean that quite literally, let the boy be who he is and play on the team of his gender, which is, whether others like it or not, male. So yes, I think these situations are cruelly and intentionally unfair to all involved, and the solution is extremely easy. Ask people their gender. Let them be who they are when they pee and when they play. If we would butt the heck out of their business, we could stop being outraged, and trans people could stop being persecuted for existing.


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IOC has looked at this issue in detail, and also looked at the issue of medical problems in women that create unusually high levels of testosterone.
USATF has a nice statement (http://www.usatf.org/About/Privacy---Other-Policies/Transgender-Transsexual.aspx)on their website about balancing fairness in competition with respect for privacy and an individual's identity/autonomy (and I link to IOC included).
NCAA has a detailed policy (https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf)on this.

It would make sense for the HS level regulating bodies in states to take guidance from the rules already established by the larger organizations which address this in even more highly competitive athletes, particularly as these are the rules that these student athletes will play under as they move from HS to college or beyond.

The transgender boy who wanted to wrestle and who was taking testosterone should be able to wrestle with boys. The respects his identity and his opportunity to participate, and also promotes fairness to the female wrestlers.

Taking testosterone for a real medical indication is not doping, and people with medical conditions should be able to participate in sport (if healthy enough and they want to). Generally, male athletes at the HS level who need testosterone treatment (there are congenital medical conditions where boys are born without testes; pituitary disorders may result in low or absent testosterone production in teen boys, some survivors of pediatric cancer have poorly functioning testes) are not excluded from participation.

Transgender girls create a slightly more difficult situation logistically, as their naturally higher levels of testosterone could be an advantage over cisgender girls. Requiring transgender girls to take medical treatments which lower testosterone and to document their low testosterone is one way to create fairness on both sides (a transgender girl with low testosterone could be unfairly disadvantaged if made to compete with boys, just as cisgender girls could be disadvantaged if competing with a transgender girl who still has testosterone in the adult male range). However, requiring athletes to provide all this documentation does impact their privacy. So, these types of policies tend to value fair competition over privacy.

(In the above, I use the term transgender boy to refer to a person with female biological sex, assigned female at birth, but with male gender identity, and I generally use male pronouns in this context. Cisgender boy refers to a person with male biological sex, assigned male at birth, and with male gender identity. The converse applies. This construct is quite binary and may not fully address the needs of student athletes whose gender identity is more fluid. Just want to acknowledge that gender is not fully binary).


Yes, yes, yes to these PPs. I totally agree with the points they share, especially that IOC and NCAA have extensive polices that would serve well as guidance for HS policies.

[elektra]

IOC has looked at this issue in detail, and also looked at the issue of medical problems in women that create unusually high levels of testosterone.
USATF has a nice statement (http://www.usatf.org/About/Privacy---Other-Policies/Transgender-Transsexual.aspx)on their website about balancing fairness in competition with respect for privacy and an individual's identity/autonomy (and I link to IOC included).
NCAA has a detailed policy (https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf)on this.

It would make sense for the HS level regulating bodies in states to take guidance from the rules already established by the larger organizations which address this in even more highly competitive athletes, particularly as these are the rules that these student athletes will play under as they move from HS to college or beyond.

The transgender boy who wanted to wrestle and who was taking testosterone should be able to wrestle with boys. The respects his identity and his opportunity to participate, and also promotes fairness to the female wrestlers.

Taking testosterone for a real medical indication is not doping, and people with medical conditions should be able to participate in sport (if healthy enough and they want to). Generally, male athletes at the HS level who need testosterone treatment (there are congenital medical conditions where boys are born without testes; pituitary disorders may result in low or absent testosterone production in teen boys, some survivors of pediatric cancer have poorly functioning testes) are not excluded from participation.

Transgender girls create a slightly more difficult situation logistically, as their naturally higher levels of testosterone could be an advantage over cisgender girls. Requiring transgender girls to take medical treatments which lower testosterone and to document their low testosterone is one way to create fairness on both sides (a transgender girl with low testosterone could be unfairly disadvantaged if made to compete with boys, just as cisgender girls could be disadvantaged if competing with a transgender girl who still has testosterone in the adult male range). However, requiring athletes to provide all this documentation does impact their privacy. So, these types of policies tend to value fair competition over privacy.

(In the above, I use the term transgender boy to refer to a person with female biological sex, assigned female at birth, but with male gender identity, and I generally use male pronouns in this context. Cisgender boy refers to a person with male biological sex, assigned male at birth, and with male gender identity. The converse applies. This construct is quite binary and may not fully address the needs of student athletes whose gender identity is more fluid. Just want to acknowledge that gender is not fully binary).

I agree with this.
I think the transgender boy wrestler should have wrestled the boys. They should change the law. It seems like an obvious decision and wrestling the girls is not fair. It sucks for everyone involved. How can the boy really appreciate the win? But based on everything I read, that was his only avenue to compete!
It gets trickier when it's the other way around though and the athlete is a transgender girl.
Everyone should be able to compete. However, I know as a female athlete I would be upset and feel it was not fair if I had to compete against a transgener girl, and most definitely a transgender boy, as in the wrestling scenario. I do think the right answer would be to let the transgender girl compete in whichever group she felt more comfortable in. If she chooses to compete with the girls, it still is not exactly fair to all the other girl competitors though IMO. Should Caitlyn Jenner have been awarded a gold medal in the Olympics if she would have transitioned way back then and competed against the women? I mean she would have beaten all the men too! No easy solution.

[pinkmomagain]

I think it was unfair to the wrestler that he couldn't wrestle against the gender he identifies with. It's not like he's thinking "score, I beat the girls."

I agree 100%

[dogmom]

Oh for Pete's sake, its high school wrestling. Fair, not fair, it won't matter pretty soon to any of these kids. It will be a much better story 10 years from now "Hey, I lost the girls state wrestling title to a boy in transition because I lived in Texas" than "I was the Texas Girls wrestling champ."

As usually, adults ruin kids sports.

[carolinacool]

Eh, I don't know. I didn't peak in high school but I could see this gnawing at me for a good little while. Maybe I'm not a well-adjusted adult.

I agree that it wasn't fair to the boy or the girls he wrestled against.

[sariana]

Oh for Pete's sake, its high school wrestling. Fair, not fair, it won't matter pretty soon to any of these kids. It will be a much better story 10 years from now "Hey, I lost the girls state wrestling title to a boy in transition because I lived in Texas" than "I was the Texas Girls wrestling champ."

As usually, adults ruin kids sports.

While I understand what you're getting at, the (hypothetical) girl who missed out on a college scholarship (and her parents) may feel differently. High school sports are no longer just high school sports.

[Corie]

High school sports are no longer just high school sports.


You are absolutely right about that!

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

These kids have put countless hours of blood, sweat and tears into their sports, transgender or no. Doesn't make it less meaningful to them because they are young and "should get over it".

[Pennylane]

I do think the right answer would be to let the transgender girl compete in whichever group she felt more comfortable in. .

I totally disagree with this! Why should he be allowed to choose which sex he wrestles against? Then the "weaker" boys should also be allowed to wrestle against the girls also. He should have been put in the boys division or not competed at all. I don't know why everyone else has to pay the price for this one persons choice to transition. And before you attack me for having this opinion, I have absolutely no problem with what he is doing in general , I just think in this specific case it was handled all wrong and just maybe he should have made the decision not to wrestle at all.

Ann

[JenChem]

I guess I don't understand why there is a male/female choice. When I went to school it was all by weight class and gender didn't matter.

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[JamiMac]

These kids have put countless hours of blood, sweat and tears into their sports, transgender or no. Doesn't make it less meaningful to them because they are young and "should get over it".

Oh, absolutely! I can't imagine anyone thinking that they wouldn't care. I also have a DD that plays high school sports. I'm pretty sure being the state champion of a sport would mean a lot, even years later.


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[StantonHyde]

The bottom line is that you can compete "up" but not down. E.g. if female to male, then compete against males. This assumes that you have more male hormones in your body than the typical female, so you have to compete against males. It is not fair for someone who was male until age 18 or so to then compete against women. It just isn't. And the IOC, etc have long recognized these differences and made rules for them. There are so many athletes who have different chromosomes/hormones/genitalia etc from all sorts of interesting human development varieties. So the IOC had to write rules to address all of these issues. High schools should rely on these rules.

And it is so not "just high school sports" any more. So let's take rules from the top of the sport and pass them on down.

As for meds in general, if you are taking a med that just gets you to a level playing field-ADHD meds, or insulin etc. then that should be allowed. That is assuming that a drug test can tell if your insulin levels are "normal" or not and thus if you need that boost or not. I would NEVER depend on a note from a doctor. Too many doping schemes have been aided by doctors. (and I work in health care, am married to an MD, daughter of an MD) I think with meds like ADHD, you can declare that you need these meds, get notes etc before the competition, and then a decision is made. I can see how, if an ADD med had the side effect of building muscle, you might not be able to take that med and compete because that would give you an unfair advantage.

I say this as an athlete who believes in fair play.

[elektra]

Oh for Pete's sake, its high school wrestling. Fair, not fair, it won't matter pretty soon to any of these kids. It will be a much better story 10 years from now "Hey, I lost the girls state wrestling title to a boy in transition because I lived in Texas" than "I was the Texas Girls wrestling champ."

As usually, adults ruin kids sports.

You are obviously not an athlete nor in touch with athletics these days. This is completely disrespectful to any developing or developed athlete that is of high school age. Many athletes will peak at this age, especially girls. (Ex. Gymnastics) it may just be "high school wrestling" to you but to someone else it could be their life dream or chance at a scholarship. I'm not sure how girls wrestling works in terms of high school vs. club in regards to what influences scholarships but I would not be surprised if parents of the girl wrestlers file lawsuits and I hope they would win for the girls' sake and for the boy's sake. That transgender boy should have been wrestling other boys as should other transgender boys.


I totally disagree with this! Why should he be allowed to choose which sex he wrestles against? Then the "weaker" boys should also be allowed to wrestle against the girls also. He should have been put in the boys division or not competed at all. I don't know why everyone else has to pay the price for this one persons choice to transition. And before you attack me for having this opinion, I have absolutely no problem with what he is doing in general , I just think in this specific case it was handled all wrong and just maybe he should have made the decision not to wrestle at all.

Ann

I agree that the boy in question ( I think his name is Mack) should have wrestled the boys. I thought I stated that but maybe it was unclear.
I was talking about transgender GIRLS being able to choose, not transgender boys. I know it's not the same standard. But it is a biological fact that birth/bio males have more muscle mass and testosterone than females in general. I'm suggesting to let them at least choose to compete against the boys. Like I said, this scenario is trickier. The "right" answer is not as clear cut here. Different scenario as she was born with more ambiguous sex organs I believe but still similar is Caster Semenya. I know that she has drawn criticism. I feel for her. She should be able to compete. But there will always be a figurative asterisk next to her titles.

(I have some first hand experience in some of these situations which may influence my opinions.)

[specialp]

Oh for Pete's sake, its high school wrestling. Fair, not fair, it won't matter pretty soon to any of these kids. It will be a much better story 10 years from now "Hey, I lost the girls state wrestling title to a boy in transition because I lived in Texas" than "I was the Texas Girls wrestling champ."

As usually, adults ruin kids sports.

How many adult competitive wrestlers do you have in your circle?


This is completely disrespectful to any developing or developed athlete that is of high school age. Many athletes will peak at this age, especially girls. .)

Agreed - incredibly disrespectful. I do not have an athletic bone in my body, but my DH does and many of my high school friends were athletes, one winning a state championship. High school and college are the last opportunities to compete for many.

[anonomom]

Ok, but does allowing a transgender girl to compete against girls actually hurt another girl's chance at a scholarship? I am not athletic, so this is a sincere question.

Do scholarships work like that? That only the state champion may receive one? There's no possibility, say, in this case, of the second-place girl explaining to the scout in question that she was forced to compete against a boy because of the state's bizarre rules? Or that a scout may actually see the girl in question compete and decide for herself whether that kid deserves a scholarship?

And I do, FWIW, think that a trans girl should absolutely be allowed to compete against girls. I don't think it's unfair just because that girl might possibly have more muscles than other girls against whom she's competing. As I've mentioned before, people come in a range of sizes and abilities, and are expected to compete against each other. I don't see why this situation is any different.

[legaleagle]

And I do, FWIW, think that a trans girl should absolutely be allowed to compete against girls. I don't think it's unfair just because that girl might possibly have more muscles than other girls against whom she's competing. As I've mentioned before, people come in a range of sizes and abilities, and are expected to compete against each other. I don't see why this situation is any different.

Agreed - it's also not uncommon for children who have been out as trans from a young age to take hormone blockers to prevent puberty of the biological sex, in which case a MTF girl would have never experienced male puberty. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/

[khm]

It it is tough situation! The WaPo article said Mach's school district determined his testosterone was “well below the allowed level”, whatever that means.

Still, he should have been allowed to wrestle the boys. It wasn't fair to the girls, in my opinion.

But, lots about sports isn't fair. Some kids have genetic gifts or natural testosterone levels that other kids don't have. Some kids grow up with expensive travel teams and untold hours of private coaching, where other kids can't afford that. Bad calls cost regular games, playoff games and championships.

Our state wrestling tournament had 2 really, really controversial calls in the last seconds, on a kid who is a multi-sport renowned athlete. He's a big deal on the football field and on the mat. He ended up losing. But, he handled it with AMAZING grace and sportsmanship. Even right then in the thick of it, he kept his cool and took it really respectfully - towards the other kid and the ref. People talked about the loss and the iffy calls. But, mostly, they showed respect for how the kid handled it. Years of playing, winning and losing, and probably some really good parenting and coaching put this kind into a head-space where he showed the rest of us what sports is supposed to be about.

Our school recently moved into the next larger sports conference. We went from being a big school in our conference, to being a small school in our conference. It stinks for the kids who went from dominating, to not. But, it stunk for the kids we used to dominate simply because we had a larger pool of kids than they did, right?

When girls basketball went from 6 on 6 to 5 on 5, I'm sure the play suffered for the kids who had to re-learn a new game.

[Corie]

The bottom line is that you can compete "up" but not down. E.g. if female to male, then compete against males. This assumes that you have more male hormones in your body than the typical female, so you have to compete against males. It is not fair for someone who was male until age 18 or so to then compete against women. It just isn't.


Yes, I completely agree with this. The transgender girl in Alaska is 18 years old. I don't think she should have been allowed to compete in the state
track meet against girls. I think she should have been competing against the boys.

[anonomom]

Yes, I completely agree with this. The transgender girl in Alaska is 18 years old. I don't think she should have been allowed to compete in the state
track meet against girls. I think she should have been competing against the boys.

But what I'm trying to get at is why? What makes the possibility that a trans girl might be stronger/faster/more muscular than a cis girl unfair, when other variations in people's size/strength/speed are seen as unremarkable? Is it unfair that my very short daughter has to play basketball against other girls who are head taller than her? Of course not, or at least it's just your garden-variety unfair that comes with the fact that people aren't cookie cutter. A trans kid is just another variation, and punishing her for having that variation isn't reasonable.

[bisous]

But what I'm trying to get at is why? What makes the possibility that a trans girl might be stronger/faster/more muscular than a cis girl unfair, when other variations in people's size/strength/speed are seen as unremarkable? Is it unfair that my very short daughter has to play basketball against other girls who are head taller than her? Of course not, or at least it's just your garden-variety unfair that comes with the fact that people aren't cookie cutter. A trans kid is just another variation, and punishing her for having that variation isn't reasonable.

But we've already determined that separating by gender is an acceptable delineation. In almost every sport, men are stronger and faster than women. As a very proud woman that's hard to concede sometimes but it is the truth. That's why there are two different categories, so that women can compete at the top levels at all. I guess we have to decide whether that is fair. Following your logic you need to then ponder whether that variation (as you call it) is reason enough to separate the competitors. If gender is as fluid as you say, if the variation is simply another factor, why separate them at all? And I'm not arguing this really, just demonstrating that this is where this line of thinking seems to lead.

I still feel like the NCAA rule explained upthread is the best practical way to handle the issue.

[Corie]

But we've already determined that separating by gender is an acceptable delineation. In almost every sport, men are stronger and faster than women. As a very proud woman that's hard to concede sometimes but it is the truth. That's why there are two different categories, so that women can compete at the top levels at all. I guess we have to decide whether that is fair. Following your logic you need to then ponder whether that variation (as you call it) is reason enough to separate the competitors. If gender is as fluid as you say, if the variation is simply another factor, why separate them at all? And I'm not arguing this really, just demonstrating that this is where this line of thinking seems to lead.

I still feel like the NCAA rule explained upthread is the best practical way to handle the issue.


Thank you for explaining it better than I would have!

[Kindra178]

Yes, I completely agree with this. The transgender girl in Alaska is 18 years old. I don't think she should have been allowed to compete in the state
track meet against girls. I think she should have been competing against the boys.

What does the fact that she's 18 have anything to do with this?

Anonomom, I am not sure I am with your last sentence. While there is no doubt that the high school regs were written for another era and really caused this, and gender may be fluid, I think we all need to accept that men and women are different. If we came at this issue with that perspective, the wrestler could have wrestled with the appropriate group.

[anonomom]

But we've already determined that separating by gender is an acceptable delineation. In almost every sport, men are stronger and faster than women. As a very proud woman that's hard to concede sometimes but it is the truth. That's why there are two different categories, so that women can compete at the top levels at all. I guess we have to decide whether that is fair. Following your logic you need to then ponder whether that variation (as you call it) is reason enough to separate the competitors. If gender is as fluid as you say, if the variation is simply another factor, why separate them at all? And I'm not arguing this really, just demonstrating that this is where this line of thinking seems to lead.

I still feel like the NCAA rule explained upthread is the best practical way to handle the issue.

We have? ;)

I actually don't think it's ok to segregate the sexes in all sports. There are some extremely limited circumstances where it may make sense, but I think we as a country are far too rigid about sex segregation.

For example, there was a 5th grade basketball team that was told it needed to kick off its girls or forfeit its season. http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2017/02/st_johns_cyo_girls_cant_play_with_boys_basketball. html It seems that the diocese later changed its mind, but why was it even an issue at all? In that case, there weren't enough girls interested to make a team, so the choice was either to play with the boys or be forbidden from playing in the league at all.

[Corie]

What does the fact that she's 18 have anything to do with this?




I was referencing her age because of something that StantonHyde said in her post.

"It is not fair for someone who was male until age 18 or so to then compete against women. It just isn't."

[ehmom]

We have? ;)

I actually don't think it's ok to segregate the sexes in all sports. There are some extremely limited circumstances where it may make sense, but I think we as a country are far too rigid about sex segregation.

For example, there was a 5th grade basketball team that was told it needed to kick off its girls or forfeit its season. http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2017/02/st_johns_cyo_girls_cant_play_with_boys_basketball. html It seems that the diocese later changed its mind, but why was it even an issue at all? In that case, there weren't enough girls interested to make a team, so the choice was either to play with the boys or be forbidden from playing in the league at all.

I'll agree that in 5th grade there should be some leniency especially when there is a lack of teams. My daughter is in 6th grade and is taller than many of the boys in her class at this point. However, as kids get older, in general, the boys will be bigger and stronger than the girls. If there are no gender specific teams, then there would be no girls (or maybe only a very few) on any varsity teams. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're suggesting that most sports should be co-ed.

[Snow mom]

I totally disagree with this! Why should he be allowed to choose which sex he wrestles against? Then the "weaker" boys should also be allowed to wrestle against the girls also. He should have been put in the boys division or not competed at all. I don't know why everyone else has to pay the price for this one persons choice to transition. And before you attack me for having this opinion, I have absolutely no problem with what he is doing in general , I just think in this specific case it was handled all wrong and just maybe he should have made the decision not to wrestle at all.

Ann

In regard to the bolded, is this the best way to deal with injustice? Should transgendered people just not participate in anything because they run the risk of making someone uncomfortable or having some "advantage" that they might not wish for anyway? I think Mack did the right thing in taking the only option that was offered to him. He would have preferred to wrestle in the boys competition but there was a (stupid) rule preventing that. Responding by dropping out would have changed exactly nothing and would have promoted the idea that it's okay to bully transgendered people out of their right to participate in things that non-transgendered people participate in. This has brought attention to an issue where higher sports have already worked out a solution. Hopefully rules at lower levels will be updated to match the higher levels.

[calebsmama03]

No easy answers here. Both of the situation in the OP seem unfair.

[Kindra178]

I'll agree that in 5th grade there should be some leniency especially when there is a lack of teams. My daughter is in 6th grade and is taller than many of the boys in her class at this point. However, as kids get older, in general, the boys will be bigger and stronger than the girls. If there are no gender specific teams, then there would be no girls (or maybe only a very few) on any varsity teams. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're suggesting that most sports should be co-ed.

I haven't independently researched this, but a fellow member of our local soccer board expressed grave concern about coed teams in 5th-6th grades. He believed that the soccer concussion risk increases exponentially.

Even pre puberty it seems that boys pull away from girls strength and skill wise, or at least that's what I have seen. I think more boys play at the highest level of sports.


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[squimp]

I haven't independently researched this, but a fellow member of our local soccer board expressed grave concern about coed teams in 5th-6th grades. He believed that the soccer concussion risk increases exponentially.

Even pre puberty it seems that boys pull away from girls strength and skill wise, or at least that's what I have seen. I think more boys play at the highest level of sports.


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Maybe not all sport, but there are several sports, think baseball or archery. There are a number of girls here who play baseball with boys, and it is a great opportunity for them.

[elektra]

We have? ;)

I actually don't think it's ok to segregate the sexes in all sports. There are some extremely limited circumstances where it may make sense, but I think we as a country are far too rigid about sex segregation.

For example, there was a 5th grade basketball team that was told it needed to kick off its girls or forfeit its season. http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2017/02/st_johns_cyo_girls_cant_play_with_boys_basketball. html It seems that the diocese later changed its mind, but why was it even an issue at all? In that case, there weren't enough girls interested to make a team, so the choice was either to play with the boys or be forbidden from playing in the league at all.

I have never heard this opinion before! Do you really think there are only extremely limited circumstances that warrant separating gender in sports? Just about every sport I can think of has men dominating if you look at objective measures such as time, distance, etc.
And other countries are more "progressive" with this? I really don't know but I have participated in a handful of international competitions as a teen and and adult (and watched even more on TV :P) and I think an equestrian event is the only thing I have seen that is mixed. Oh and Danica Patrick with racecar driving.
Maybe you are talking about kids' sports. I can see doing coed for really little kids. But by having separate boys/girls, even at a pretty young age, it gives girls a much better chance to participate as a kid, and then also to be competitive as a teen or adult.

[StantonHyde]

I can assure you that I was very happy to play women's rugby in college. I am 5'10" and I still wasn't as big as those guys and would have gotten creamed playing the men. I did well playing against women--and that was great for me. In the triathlons I race now, the top men are always better than the top women. Even in my age group, the men still out perform the women. I am happy to compete against women.

For my son, volleyball is co-ed 5th-8th grade, which is good because there are not enough boys to have their own team. Everybody makes the team, so they all have equal opportunities. When I was growing up, we didn't have girls soccer teams or girls baseball--(and no softball)--if the girls wanted to play, they had to play on the boys teams. Those girls were REALLY good.

So, no, co-ed sports in high school is not the answer. Girls won't get the opportunities and they will get hurt more than they already do. Yes, the top woman can beat an average man. But the only way to develop a sport and have a large talent pool for college and professional sports is to have a woman's sports program. Which is why Title IX exists.

[anonomom]

If there are legitimate safety issues, then sure, segregate (but I think we'd have to be super careful that the dangers are actually documented, not just presumed because "everybody knows.")

But the arguments I was seeing on this thread about (hypothetically) forcing a trans girl to compete against boys weren't based in safety concerns, but rather in concerns that the trans girl would be stronger/faster/better than the cis girls, and that allowing her to compete with them would thus be unfair. And I'm just pointing out that athletics are inherently unfair because people come in all different shapes, sizes and levels of strength/speed/talent/whatever. I still don't see why that one particular unfairness should single a trans girl out for different treatment when all of the other kinds of unfairness are just chalked up to facts of life.

[StantonHyde]

If there are legitimate safety issues, then sure, segregate (but I think we'd have to be super careful that the dangers are actually documented, not just presumed because "everybody knows.")

But the arguments I was seeing on this thread about (hypothetically) forcing a trans girl to compete against boys weren't based in safety concerns, but rather in concerns that the trans girl would be stronger/faster/better than the cis girls, and that allowing her to compete with them would thus be unfair. And I'm just pointing out that athletics are inherently unfair because people come in all different shapes, sizes and levels of strength/speed/talent/whatever. I still don't see why that one particular unfairness should single a trans girl out for different treatment when all of the other kinds of unfairness are just chalked up to facts of life.

Because a body like the IOC has ruled that women and men should compete separately due to imbalances in speed and strength. So the differences between top women is X percentage. But the difference between top men and top women is X+? percentage. In other words, it will always be unfair to women to compete against men. This is far beyond the normal bell curve variations. There are some who can do it--Katy Ledecky or Lindsay Vaughn for example. But they are not the norm. Seriously, there would be close to zero women in sports if it was all co-ed. This is not a "fact of life" unfairness. It is so unfair that women would not be able to compete at top levels. And, yes, having top level sports teams/programs means that there is a trickle down to college and high school sports programs. So it is important to have, for example, womens world cup soccer. Or womens swim races in the Olympics.

As for transgender athletes--I will stick to women can compete against men, but unless a man transitioned early on and thus has not had the benefit of testosterone-aided growth, then a man who trans to female should not compete against females.