Teens sleeping together... what age?...

[magnoliaparadise]

This post is about sex. I wanted to say sex in the title, but I didn't want to offend anyone or anger anyone at work opening their BBB and having colleagues see the screen.

Backnote: We live in a big city.

So... this is not exactly a concern of mine yet because I have a 9 and 5 yo. But I was telling a friend today about my wiley 9 year old and how I am having trouble with the kindle and controlling non-book screen time and she said... "at least you aren't at sex yet." She then told me about her 18 year old and the problems she is having with her boyfriends.

Honestly, I was very sexually developmentally delayed anyway, and I was in a geeky group, but not many people were having sex or at least talked about it when I was in high school... granted, I'm older than many people here so I get that a lot has changed. My friend said that many are having sex at 18?" And she said many ("but not all") are having sex at 16...

My friend also said that by 18, the kids generally don't have curfews and if so, it's at 1 am...

In addition, my friend said that she had done research and many high school girls across the board are actually identifying good sex as 'not painful', so her view is that rather than speak against sex (which I'm sure she felt I was doing without my intending to!) was to make sure girls in a good relationship and understand that sex can be enjoyable and that they are equal partners and not just having sex to 'make the boy happy'...

CRAP!! And here I am having trouble with a kindle. Sounds like in a few years, things will ramp up more :)

************** Maybe this is just a big city problem? In your area, when do you think kids are starting to have sex? Are the suburbs are slower?! I personally was SO not mature enough at 18, let alone 16.

It was so much easier when they were in my womb.

Full control was awesome, lol :) Joke joke.

I want to add that I am not personally against sex in consensual relationships and before marriage (and I'm not criticizing those who are against sex before marriage). And I get that 18 year olds are adults (my friend calls them 'baby adults'). And I also get that there are many important things out there (drugs, DUI) which are more important.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Umm, this isn't a big city issue. Not sure how that would factor in. If I were letting myself stereotype, I'd say kids in more rural environments have sex younger due to fewer recreational activities at their disposal than their city counterparts. ;)

I knew a fair number that had sex in the 15-16 range. Certainly by the time I went off to college, almost everyone I knew (myself included) was having sex. I would hope my kiddos hold out until 17yo AND do it only with someone they respect and care about and feels that way about them.

[amyx4]

Ok, stop and breathe! I have teens. There are so many variations in teens and s*x habits that I'm surprised that this women would generalize quite so much. Think the opposite. Imagine if I walked up to you and said, "All teens wait until they are married to have sex." Well you know that could be true for some teens but you know it's not true for all teens. Just like her statement, true for some but not all teens.

At this point I would suggest that you concentrate on what you plan on teaching your 9 year old. I know there's been threads here for books that discuss how to present s*x ed/health/body changes in a positive light. In my experience, at just a little order than your daughter, my kids brought home so much misinformation, it almost drove me crazy. We read and discussed and were very open with correct information and yet still they would repeat inaccurate stuff that their friends told them! Ugh!

[specialp]

I remembered this (http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?386094-s-o-How-old-were-you-when-you-lost-your-virginity)poll from a few years ago.

I really have no idea about my area.

[AnnieW625]

I grew up in suburban Sacramento (in a farm city where people routinely get married right out of high school) and I started hearing "sex" rumors at 13 about kids who were 14/15 years old. A friend of a friend got pregnant at 14 or 15 and had her daughter at 15/16. She married the baby father (they later divorced as he was bad news) but had amazing support from her family and was able to go to college and graduated (and later remarried and had three or four more kids). Another friend got pregnant at the end of our senior year in high school as well and did okay with help from parents but I think those two girls were extremely lucky with their circumstances.

I was 20 (a week shy of 21) when I first had sex and at that point I was in my life that if something happened and I got pregnant that I would be able to take care of it as much as possible and I was thankfully almost done with college as well. I did use birth control pills and required a condom each time until I got married at 25.

I agree the correct information helps a lot. My parents weren't big sex talk people, but I found some great books at my local library on development and sex and it helped a ton. I hope to be more at ease about sex talk with my kids than my parents were.


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[Mikey0709]

I guess I can't answer for times now, but i'm going on 47 and my CATHOLIC high school graduating class had 2 girls who had children, 1 pregnant at graduation. There were about 150 in my class. We were in a suburb of a big city.

[gatorsmom]

Take a deep breath. Every teen is different, every group of teens is different, every high school is different. In my high school some groups of kids were having sex, some weren't. And they were having sex for different reasons- they were bored, they wanted to be included in a particular group of kids, they didn't want their boyfriend/girlfriend to break up with them, etc. Some people I knew just weren't ready yet or didn't want to or were too immature. Whatever the reason, the point is all kids are different. Not all kids have sex when they are teens. And if you want to have some influence in your teens life you have to find a way to communicate with them. It also helps to be involved in their life. And it doesn't hurt to steer them toward good influences and away from activities that could lead to problems (whether it is unsafe sex, drinking, drug use, irresponsiblilty with their money, addictions to porn etc.). The teen years, imho, are hard because you have to be vigilant without looking like you are vigilant. But young teen sex is not a foregone conclusion.

[MamaSnoo]

I was 18. I was not, to my knowledge, the first or the last in my group of friends. >20 years ago in the deep south where I grew up, there was stigma for premarital or teen sex, esp for girls. So, people often did not talk about it with their parents or with each other. For example, I had a friend who later told me that she started having sex with her boyfriend when she was 16, but even though we were good friends, she did not tell me until she was 18 or 19. When I was a HS senior, there were very few people that I knew of who were definitely having sex; however, in retrospect, I think a lot of people that I did not know about were having sex.

Here is a link to some data from CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/s.htm)about sexual practices in teens and adults (up to 44 yo) in the US. There is a second page (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/key_statistics/t.htm) with additional info on teens. There is a lot of detailed info in these tables!

My DD is 9 this month, too. We have started talking about sex, mostly from a biology of reproduction perspective, and to talk about abuse/touching/safety issues. I plan in the next few years (well prior to when she is 14) to have an ongoing dialogue about sexual decision making, focusing on health, safety, self-respect, and fostering good relationships.

[JBaxter]

It happens younger than 18 on a regular basis from my experience. I've raised 2 that are out of college and it was very common in high school. I'm almost 50 and in my small rural high school ( my graduating class was 83 students) 5 had babies by graduation.

[essnce629]

Umm, this isn't a big city issue. Not sure how that would factor in. If I were letting myself stereotype, I'd say kids in more rural environments have sex younger due to fewer recreational activities at their disposal than their city counterparts. ;)

I knew a fair number that had sex in the 15-16 range. Certainly by the time I went off to college, almost everyone I knew (myself included) was having sex. I would hope my kiddos hold out until 17yo AND do it only with someone they respect and care about and feels that way about them.
Yes, this exactly.

I went to a private Catholic high school in San Diego (graduated in 1999) and out of my 6 best friends, only 1 was still a virgin at graduation. Lots of people were having sex and there were at least 2 girls in my high school who got pregnant, one a sophomore and one a senior, who continued their pregnancies. My friends and I were all 16 or 17 when we lost our virginity, and were doing other non intercourse sex stuff before that. I had one good friend who really wanted to remain a virgin till marriage so she'd have anal sex with her much older boyfriend instead! 😨

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[mmsmom]

I would be thrilled if my DC waited until they were 18. I was 16 and there were many at my high school in the late 80's who were 15-18 for their first time. I lived in a medium size city. I went to a very large college and I would estimate about 1/4 of the girls in my sorority pledge class of 50 were virgins when they came to college.

I am now in a suburb or a very large city. We have a lot of high school babysitters and the trend these days here seems to be to not have a serious boyfriend. I realize that doesn't mean they are not having sex though.

I agree that I don't think size of city matters or public school vs religious based school. A friend's DC attend a Christian school and she has shared that a lot of kids there are having sex.

I personally don't feel 18 is young for sex but this varies greatly depending on the kid. My hope for my kids is that they will wait until they have a committed, loving, respectful relationship and are mature enough to handle all of the emotions and responsibilities of being sexually active. I will focus on these aspects of it rather than the age number.

[smilequeen]

I don't think it matters city, suburb, rural, private school, public school, none of it.

And it can happen in middle school too, so we have to teach our kids sooner than later.

My experience was that a handful were having sex in HS, and most of us were not. I don't know if that has changed, but it really doesn't affect what I want to instill in my own children. I am not opposed to pre marital sex (I would be a hypocrite if I was because I don't have any regrets), but I have a strong preference for waiting until adulthood...18 is an adult, a little longer is preferable. I don't care one way or the other if people wait until marriage or not, including my children. I only care that they treat their own body, the bodies of their partners with full respect, that they are careful and responsible with their decisions, and that they take full responsibility for their actions. That's how I was raised, and generally how I behaved.

[Philly Mom]

I don't think it matters city, suburb, rural, private school, public school, none of it.

And it can happen in middle school too, so we have to teach our kids sooner than later.

My experience was that a handful were having sex in HS, and most of us were not. I don't know if that has changed, but it really doesn't affect what I want to instill in my own children. I am not opposed to pre marital sex (I would be a hypocrite if I was because I don't have any regrets), but I have a strong preference for waiting until adulthood...18 is an adult, a little longer is preferable. I don't care one way or the other if people wait until marriage or not, including my children. I only care that they treat their own body, the bodies of their partners with full respect, that they are careful and responsible with their decisions, and that they take full responsibility for their actions. That's how I was raised, and generally how I behaved.

I agree with this. Well stated.

[DualvansMommy]

I grew up attending all girls catholic school in a major city, living in one of metro suburb areas. I had sex first time at college as a freshman, was just 19 years old. So personally I don't think 18 is all that late, and looking back to my graduating class quite a few were actually sexually active from 16 years old. And out of my core 15 close friends, 5 became first time moms unexpectedly at 20/21 years old!

A lot of it was down to not talking about sex in a healthy and safe way, so I rather start the sexual education early! I'm just 40 and have friends who are moms to teen girls and at least 2 I know are sexually active at 16 years old. Their moms felt ok cuz it was within a long term safe and loving HS relationship. I rather promote that, imo than focusing on the age itself. I'm a mom of 2 boys and definitely want to teach them birth control is ON them as well. Not just rely on the girl, and to be respectful.


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[StantonHyde]

I think the latest stats are around 50% of HS students will have intercourse by the time they graduate. So that means that 50% don't! There is all sorts of info out there on how to help kids be good decision makers and to create an environment in which they are less likely to have sex in high school. AND they need to know all about birth control and sexually transmitted infections. I wasn't having sex at 16, but I knew more than my friends who were when it came to preventing pregnancy etc. Knowledge is power. Make sure your kids know your values. Listen to your kids. Make sure they have enough activities so they have a future to look forward to, something positive to rely on outside of school. And talk to them about drugs and alcohol. Nothing is 100% but you try your best and move forward.

[pinay]

I'm a high school teacher in a suburban area and I would guess that 40-50% of my students will have had sex by the time they graduate. For those that do, I think it typically starts happening around sophomore year. By senior year, I don't think it's particularly taboo behavior- not everyone is sexually active, but they aren't surprised if someone chooses to be.

While I think sex is important to discuss with our kids, I think it's secondary to making sure that they can identify healthy relationship behaviors and what they want from their romantic relationships. My parents didn't talk to me about boys- I was told I couldn't have a boyfriend until I was 17 and I actually didn't even kiss a boy until I was 19 because I had no idea how to communicate with the opposite sex! In no way do I want my DDs to have that same experience. I hope that they have male and female friends, and once they start to experience romantic feelings toward someone, that they can honestly communicate them towards that person and have them reciprocated. When my DDs do decide to participate in a sexual relationship, I hope that we will have given them the tools they need to adequately deal with that new arena (knowledge about birth control options, preventing STDs, keeping communication lines open, etc.)

[hwin708]

I would agree with other posters' estimates of half sexually active in high school, starting at 15/16 (and a few at 14), both when I was in high school and what I see amongst high schoolers now. I am/was in a mid-sized city.

I would also say that the majority of girls in my high school who were sexually active (I have literally no idea about the sexual activity of the boys when I was in school) were in serious relationships. Which stands to reason. After a while, the body just wants to move on from simply making out. I would not, however, view that as a reason to discourage relationships in high school, because I also saw many girls who arrived at college as virgins be very determined to "get it over with" and more willing to have sex outside of a committed relationship. Which I don't consider a better alternative just because they are a few years older.

There were no pregnancies, that I know of, at my school. But it was primarily kids from educated, affluent families, so I would not be at all surprised to learn there were abortions, even with girls whose parents had refused birth control. No way, no how these future leaders of the world were getting knocked off their Ivy League tracks by a pregnancy.

I agree with your friends focus on educating her daughter on how sex should be pleasurable for the woman as well. SO much misery could be avoided if we didn't try to "protect" girls from sex in the way we simply do not with boys.

As for how to guarantee your child ends up in the 50% not having sex - well, I don't plan on trying. Like I said, I do think a relationship increases the odds, but I am not comfortable with discouraging that just to push sex off to a time when they are away from home and support. And I do think a lot of this depends on the personality of the child. I was NOT ready for sex at 16. I was not comfortable enough to be in a serious relationship with a boy, and I definitely did not want to be getting naked with one. But I also had friends who were ready. Totally at ease, and so so interested in what else was out there. It's not like they were raised particularly differently than me. They just were different people, with different interests, different boundaries, different levels of social and emotional development. They grew up into perfectly respectable people, in loving adjusted relationships, and are no worse the wear for having sex a few years before me. I would hate to think I am hindering my child's development just for my OWN comfort.

I genuinely think the healthiest thing you can do for your child is give them the tools to be prepared when they are actually ready. And don't pin too much emphasis on sex as the most horrifying thing you can imagine your kid doing. I am not ready for them to move out of the house, become full grown adults who don't call every day! But sex - sex, I can handle. It's just another stepping stone.

[AngB]

My best friend went to an expensive, selective all girl's Catholic high school and yeah, a lot of them were pretty wild. And don't forget to think about "what counts as sex" as well. Some girls may not have vaginal sex but may be fine with oral or other variations.

My oldest is only 5 so this is way far off for me but honestly the current heroin epidemic scares me a hell of a lot more then my kid possibly having sex.

[Green_Tea]

I grew up in a bucolic small town and I would say 50% of girls were not virgins by the end of their senior year of HS. I don't think what your friend describes is a big city issue, or even a curfew issue. I had a pretty early curfew before leaving for college (had to be home by 11 pm) and received a very strong anti-sex before marriage message from my religiously conservative parents. Didn't stop me ;).

[bisous]

I'm 40 and remember it being pretty rampant in my HS. I usually start having talks about the mechanics of sex around age 8 or so with my kids. I start talking about body parts well before that. I want my kids to understand the process and I really like to be the person to explain it to them. I try to talk to them about it often so they feel comfortable talking to me about anything.

Because of my personal beliefs, I would be very disappointed if any of my kids (yes, definitely my boys too!) decided to engage in sex during high school, but ultimately I believe that if they're determined, they'll find a way and although it is very serious for many reasons, I believe it doesn't have to be the end of the world. I believe in waiting for marriage and am trying to teach that belief to my kids too, though they of course will be in charge of their own lives and bodies once they leave my own house.

[JBaxter]

Because of my personal beliefs, I would be very disappointed if any of my kids (yes, definitely my boys too!) decided to engage in sex during high school, but ultimately I believe that if they're determined, they'll find a way and although it is very serious for many reasons, I believe it doesn't have to be the end of the world. I believe in waiting for marriage and am trying to teach that belief to my kids too, though they of course will be in charge of their own lives and bodies once they leave my own house. Be careful on how you relay that to your children Good kids can make bad decisions and not feeling like they can come to you because you will become very disappointed will keep them from having an open dialog with you. I didn't give my older boys permission but I did build a dialog with them from about age 13 on relationships and becoming physical with a ( in our case) a girl. I know shortly after it happened and he told me he was being safe. I did tell my boys that I thought it was important to have feelings for a girl before having physical relations.

[american_mama]

I am surprised that you are surprised. Yes, kids are having sex in high school and have been for a very long time. I knew many people were when I was in high school, back in the 1980's. I don't think geography has much to do with it.

The Guttmacher Institute is a large research institute primarily about sexual behavior. They write:
"In 2011–2013, among unmarried 15–19-year-olds, 44% of females and 49% of males had had sexual intercourse.[2] This level has remained steady since 2002."
They also say "In 2011–2013, about 13% of never-married females aged 15–19 and 18% of never-married males in that age-group had had sex before age 15, compared with 19% and 21%, respectively, in 1995.[2,3]"

The whole report is here https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/american-teens-sexual-and-reproductive-health

If you think about it, there are lots of cultural clues that teen sex is going on. The issue of teen mothers in the US; teen sexual escapades in books, movies, and music; parental concern about teen sexual behavior? Chastity promises? Sex ed and contraceptive ed in high school and earlier? I don't even mean to say that the majority of hgh schools are, much less everyone, but it is still common.

At your kids' ages, I think you should start talking about the human body, including reproduction, and some talk about puberty with your older child. "The Care and Keeping of You" is a great book for girls, and "It's Not the Stork" (9 years and up) or "It's so Amazing" (younger kids) are both good, detailed books. Find them in the library, and look at what else is shelved near them, and see what suits you. I'd also start considering what you want to teach your kids about sex in high school, so you can start preparing that conversation. I got great facts from my parents as a child, and almost nothing in terms of guidance. From general culture, I got "sex is ok if you care about the guy" message. As a parent now, I like some of that message but want to add so much more to it. My children are in good shape about the facts of sex and the human body, but probably could use a lot more values conversation with my DH and I.

I think this is a great time for you to start learning about what your kids will confront about sexuality as they get older and what guidance you want to give them. This is not just about whether they have sex in high school or not, but what movies they watch, what they hear from friends and how they respond, what values they develop, what they hear from others and have questions about (and whether they come to you for answers). But you do have to get clear on what they will be facing, and what you want to teach them first.

[bisous]

Be careful on how you relay that to your children Good kids can make bad decisions and not feeling like they can come to you because you will become very disappointed will keep them from having an open dialog with you. I didn't give my older boys permission but I did build a dialog with them from about age 13 on relationships and becoming physical with a ( in our case) a girl. I know shortly after it happened and he told me he was being safe. I did tell my boys that I thought it was important to have feelings for a girl before having physical relations.

I get what you are saying and appreciate your opinion. For me, because of my beliefs, even safe, respectful sex is soul damning if it is not within the bounds of marriage so I want to make sure that my kids really understand the severity. It would be done with love but I really want to make sure that they understand the principle. (I don't expect everyone to agree with me at all.)

[hillview]

Yes, this exactly.

I went to a private Catholic high school in San Diego (graduated in 1999) and out of my 6 best friends, only 1 was still a virgin at graduation. Lots of people were having sex and there were at least 2 girls in my high school who got pregnant, one a sophomore and one a senior, who continued their pregnancies. My friends and I were all 16 or 17 when we lost our virginity, and were doing other non intercourse sex stuff before that. I had one good friend who really wanted to remain a virgin till marriage so she'd have anal sex with her much older boyfriend instead! 

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I went to the same school in New England! VERY similar experience. 50 girls graduated from an all girls Catholic school, 2 had been pregnant blah blah)

[trales]

I spend a ridiculous amount of unstructured time with college freshman - think 10+ hours a week while they are in labs with me. They talk a lot. I listen.

Kids are having sex in middle and high school - whether the parents want it/ know about it/ approve of it -, some of have healthy relationships and ideas about sex - some do not. They have been talking sex non stop for weeks now b/c a new very detailed survey is being given to college kids about sex/ unwanted sex/ feelings around sex/ relationships. The conversations have been really good.

I can tell you, your religion/ socioeconomic background and personal values have little to almost nothing to do with whether or not your kids will be sexually active and at what age. How they handle it/ how they feel about it and what kinds of relationships they are in has everything do with you and how you spoke to them about it.

That has been my take away from the college freshman crowd. I can't decide when or if my kids will have sex, but I can influence their attitude about it/ how they handle it and what they value as a healthy relationship and how safe they are about it both physically and emotionally. I can influence how safe they will feel coming to talk to me about it if things are bad.

[khalloc]

My husband lost his virginity at age 14!!!!!!
He lived in rural Vermont. I grew up in Boston in the city and didn't lose my virginity until my sophomore year at college. I was 20. So yeah, it's not a big city issue. I agree that kids growing up in rural areas have sex earlier since they don't have as many options for entertainment.

I think it's crazy that you think 18 is early! You're in for a rude awakening!

[mom2binsd]

I will ad this disclaimer, I would never marry someone who I had not had a sexual relationship, to me, sex is very important and I want to know we are compatible in the bedroom as much as any other aspect. I am not a prude, I enjoy sex and want my kids to enjoy a healthy sex life when they are ready.

I will add my observations, my DD is almost 14, in 8th grade, and we talk a lot. She has knows of kids (boys and girls) who have already had sex, we have talked about why having sex as an 8th grader is not a good idea. She has asked me about sex before marriage and I've been honest, I did not get married till I was 32, but I had a number of serious relationships and some casual one's before getting married. I didn't lie to her about having sex before marriage, but I did tell her I was an adult and able to handle the consequences of sex. She is aware that my boyfriend and I have sex, but again, I'm an adult. I did not have sex until I was 20, was probably one of the last of my friends, I did other things just never had sex. My boyfriend is quite a bit younger than me, he had sex at age 14, with a girl who was 13, he can't believe it looking back, especially as DD is that age.

I'm not sure I expect my DD or DS to wait until a certain age. I have many friends with teens and many are dealing with their 16 and 17 year old boys and girls who are having sex. They aren't laying out the red carpet, but they are making sure their kids are informed about birth control and std's.

I have already talked to DD about watching what she drinks (soda at this point), making sure she is always with friends and never ever feeling like she can't call me.

Living in Utah for a number of years, surrounded by a number of wonderful Mormon families, I can tell you that even though a number of my Mormon friends told me that they did wait till marriage (most were married at, age 20), plenty did not wait. In fact, my nanny was a wonderful young woman who was "kicked out" of BYU when she got pregnant her first semester. She has since gone on to have a wonderful marriage with someone else, have 4 more children and has led a very serious fight to change legislation in the state to benefit one of her children (this legislation goes against the typical Mormon view as well). Her father was a Bishop and yet they embraced her back home with her baby. She once told me she wished she knew more about birth control before she went to college, but was only told about abstinence.

Small town, big city, low or high socio economic, strict parents, lazy parents, if your kid wants to have sex they will. You do what you feel is best for your kids, instill what values you feel are important, but there are so many factors at play in our children's lives, that you CAN NOT prevent or predict what they will do. You can provide them with knowledge and confidence to do what THEY feel is right. If you think you are going to prevent your kids from having sex/looking at forbidden things on the internet etc, you are sadly mistaken. But you can be the parent they come to with questions, I'm glad my DD has come to me with questions, I think we have opened the door to lifelong communication, although I'm sure there will be a few bumps along the road.

[flashy09]

18 is very normal for teens to be having sex and has been for decades.

[gatorsmom]

I think the latest stats are around 50% of HS students will have intercourse by the time they graduate. So that means that 50% don't! There is all sorts of info out there on how to help kids be good decision makers and to create an environment in which they are less likely to have sex in high school. AND they need to know all about birth control and sexually transmitted infections. I wasn't having sex at 16, but I knew more than my friends who were when it came to preventing pregnancy etc. Knowledge is power. Make sure your kids know your values. Listen to your kids. Make sure they have enough activities so they have a future to look forward to, something positive to rely on outside of school. And talk to them about drugs and alcohol. Nothing is 100% but you try your best and move forward.

Very well said, all of this. But I particularly agree with the bolded part.

[Kindra178]

I would agree with other posters' estimates of half sexually active in high school, starting at 15/16 (and a few at 14), both when I was in high school and what I see amongst high schoolers now. I am/was in a mid-sized city.

I would also say that the majority of girls in my high school who were sexually active (I have literally no idea about the sexual activity of the boys when I was in school) were in serious relationships. Which stands to reason. After a while, the body just wants to move on from simply making out. I would not, however, view that as a reason to discourage relationships in high school, because I also saw many girls who arrived at college as virgins be very determined to "get it over with" and more willing to have sex outside of a committed relationship. Which I don't consider a better alternative just because they are a few years older.

There were no pregnancies, that I know of, at my school. But it was primarily kids from educated, affluent families, so I would not be at all surprised to learn there were abortions, even with girls whose parents had refused birth control. No way, no how these future leaders of the world were getting knocked off their Ivy League tracks by a pregnancy.

I agree with your friends focus on educating her daughter on how sex should be pleasurable for the woman as well. SO much misery could be avoided if we didn't try to "protect" girls from sex in the way we simply do not with boys.

As for how to guarantee your child ends up in the 50% not having sex - well, I don't plan on trying. Like I said, I do think a relationship increases the odds, but I am not comfortable with discouraging that just to push sex off to a time when they are away from home and support. And I do think a lot of this depends on the personality of the child. I was NOT ready for sex at 16. I was not comfortable enough to be in a serious relationship with a boy, and I definitely did not want to be getting naked with one. But I also had friends who were ready. Totally at ease, and so so interested in what else was out there. It's not like they were raised particularly differently than me. They just were different people, with different interests, different boundaries, different levels of social and emotional development. They grew up into perfectly respectable people, in loving adjusted relationships, and are no worse the wear for having sex a few years before me. I would hate to think I am hindering my child's development just for my OWN comfort.

I genuinely think the healthiest thing you can do for your child is give them the tools to be prepared when they are actually ready. And don't pin too much emphasis on sex as the most horrifying thing you can imagine your kid doing. I am not ready for them to move out of the house, become full grown adults who don't call every day! But sex - sex, I can handle. It's just another stepping stone.

I just love this post. It's not really about us. It's really about teaching our children how to be adults.
I never really thought about it like that but I agree that I would much rather have my kids be in a committed high school relationship than drunk at a party in college just to get it over with. I shudder at the thought of that.

There is so much I didn't tell my parents (I would say most people didn't) that I could have used parental guidance on. Instead, because of my parents' beliefs, I had to go at things alone or with siblings. So for those who don't believe in sex before marriage, maybe keep that view to yourself? Or clarify that he or she has to make their own decision?



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[klwa]

I grew up in a small town. We had a few teen pregnancies in middle school. When I was in 10th grade, we had 64 pregnancies in our 1000 person high school. While this is by no means normal numbers, the idea of 16 year olds having sex isn't surprising. However, it doesn't mean that everyone is doing it. The important thing is keeping open lines of communication between you and your kids, especially about what your expectations are.

[TwinFoxes]

Honestly, I was very sexually developmentally delayed anyway, but no one - NO ONE - had sex when I was in high school... so this was a shocker to me. I said to my friend... "WHAT? They are having sex at 18?" And she said many ("but not all") are having sex at 16...



I'm sorry, but people were having sex in your high school, you just didn't know about it. If this is your reaction as an adult to 18 year old adults having sex, I can see why no one in your high school talked about being sexually active with you. I did not have sex in HS, which was fine by me. But I knew that other people were sexually active. And I'm old!

Just because your friend's kid has sex doesn't mean everyone will have sex in HS. I'd prefer my girls waited until after high school. But honestly, I've read about enough sexual dysfunction to just hope that when they are married that sex is an enjoyable part of their relationship, and if having pre-marital sexual experiences leads to that, I'm fine with it. It just seems that being in a marriage where you're not compatible sexually with a partner would be torture, knowing what you want beforehand might help.

[Meatball Mommie]

Umm, this isn't a big city issue. Not sure how that would factor in. If I were letting myself stereotype, I'd say kids in more rural environments have sex younger due to fewer recreational activities at their disposal than their city counterparts. ;)

I knew a fair number that had sex in the 15-16 range. Certainly by the time I went off to college, almost everyone I knew (myself included) was having sex. I would hope my kiddos hold out until 17yo AND do it only with someone they respect and care about and feels that way about them.

This exactly. I wouldn't get yourself all worked up at this point. I have a 13 year old and sex is not even on his radar yet. There was a rumor that 2 of his 8th grade classmates (unnamed) had sex and when I asked him about it, he was horrified! lol His reaction was actually pretty funny so I know he's not ready for any kind of girlfriend relationship yet.

When I was in HS, it was pretty common for couples to have had sex by the time we graduated. Granted, not all kids had, but it was common enough...

[jse107]

I would be thrilled if my DC waited until they were 18. I was 16 and there were many at my high school in the late 80's who were 15-18 for their first time. I lived in a medium size city. I went to a very large college and I would estimate about 1/4 of the girls in my sorority pledge class of 50 were virgins when they came to college.

I am now in a suburb or a very large city. We have a lot of high school babysitters and the trend these days here seems to be to not have a serious boyfriend. I realize that doesn't mean they are not having sex though.

I agree that I don't think size of city matters or public school vs religious based school. A friend's DC attend a Christian school and she has shared that a lot of kids there are having sex.

I personally don't feel 18 is young for sex but this varies greatly depending on the kid. My hope for my kids is that they will wait until they have a committed, loving, respectful relationship and are mature enough to handle all of the emotions and responsibilities of being sexually active. I will focus on these aspects of it rather than the age number.
:yeahthat:
YES!

[hbridge]

This exactly. I wouldn't get yourself all worked up at this point. I have a 13 year old and sex is not even on his radar yet. There was a rumor that 2 of his 8th grade classmates (unnamed) had sex and when I asked him about it, he was horrified! lol His reaction was actually pretty funny so I know he's not ready for any kind of girlfriend relationship yet.

When I was in HS, it was pretty common for couples to have had sex by the time we graduated. Granted, not all kids had, but it was common enough...

I have been hearing rumors here about seventh graders... I think all we can do is instill our morals into our children, be open for them to talk when they need to, and teach them to respect themselves and others.

[minnie-zb]

I guess I'm not sure where the shock factor is on this one -- 18 is considered an adult and by that time it's really up to the individual on whether or not they choose to have sex.

Teens having sex in high school is nothing new -- I wouldn't say everyone was doing it, but it was happening in my high school in the 80's.

[vonfirmath]

This post is about sex. I wanted to say sex in the title, but I didn't want to offend anyone or anger anyone at work opening their BBB and having colleagues see the screen.

Backnote: We live in a big city.

So... this is not exactly a concern of mine yet because I have a 9 and 5 yo. But I was telling a friend today about my wiley 9 year old and how I am having trouble with the kindle and controlling non-book screen time and she said... "at least you aren't at sex yet." She then told me about her 18 year old and the problems she is having with her boyfriends.

Honestly, I was very sexually developmentally delayed anyway, but no one - NO ONE - had sex when I was in high school... so this was a shocker to me. I said to my friend... "WHAT? They are having sex at 18?" And she said many ("but not all") are having sex at 16..

...How old are you that no one was having sex in high school? I graduated high school in 1991. I was not in a "bad group" of kids -- we did lit mag and debate team, etc. But I know for sure at least one of them was active sexually. And I suspect she was not alone. I learned later that one of our group of 5 kids in the HS group at church was also active sexually at that point as well.

[mytwosons]

I have been hearing rumors here about seventh graders... I think all we can do is instill our morals into our children, be open for them to talk when they need to, and teach them to respect themselves and others.

I remember being in 5th or 6th grade in the early to mid 80s and two kids one year ahead of me getting caught after the fact.

There is an 8th grader in my son's school due to give birth this month.

[AnnieW625]

...How old are you that no one was having sex in high school? I graduated high school in 1991. I was not in a "bad group" of kids -- we did lit mag and debate team, etc. But I know for sure at least one of them was active sexually. And I suspect she was not alone. I learned later that one of our group of 5 kids in the HS group at church was also active sexually at that point as well.

Very similar to me and I graduated in 1995. Sex wasn't a huge discussion in my close circle of friends so I was never sure who was doing it and who wasn't but I am 95% sure that there were more sexually active (whether going all the way or just doing everything but intercourse) than were not and I am pretty sure my BFF was sexually active with her HS boyfriend although we never talked about it. I am pretty sure those that weren't sexually active in high school but were in committed relationships got married at 18 so they could be married and have a sex life without parents getting bent out of shape about it.


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[citymama]

In reading this thread, my response is less about what age kids are having sex (definitely no surprise to me that teens are having sex), and more about how to parent young kids in a way that is supportive, educational and protective. I would love to hear from folks with older kids, or those who work with older kids (or those with younger kids who have been consciously parenting in this way) about how to parent in a way that:
--shares your values (to use a term from StantonHyde) on issues related to relationships, intimacy and sex;
--keeps the doors wide open for them to come to you with anything at any time;
--makes sure kids are well-educated and comfortable discussing these issues with you;
--are generally cautious when it comes to big decisions;
--have good self-esteem and are not swayed by peer pressure to do things against their best judgement (goes for alcohol and drugs as well).

As a parent of an almost 11 year old who has always been precocious beyond her years, and a quite "young" seeming 6 year old, I have certainly been putting thought into this but by no means have all the answers. I think what I have been working on most is empowering them with knowledge - we have several books that we have read together and just made available to them, we have tried to discuss sex, periods etc with them (with varying success) and we are very matter of fact and/or positive when talking about how our bodies work. I've also been working on supporting their self-esteem - talking positively about our bodies, including my own, about their efforts and hard work, praising them for kindness and helpfulness, etc. It's a mixed bag - DD1 has good self-esteem about her competence and intelligence - she gets praise from many people other than us about how smart she is, creative etc, so may be a little too confident on this front. But I worry that she doesn't see herself as beautiful (she wears glasses and is at a tall, gawky phase right now) - I'm not sure if this is solved by praising her more on this front? I certainly make many statements about beauty coming from within, everyone being beautiful in their own way, complimenting people who are not conventionally beautiful, etc etc. We don't get any beauty mags, we don't even have a TV, but of course she has seen plenty of the glamor mags and ads out there in the world.

I hate to think about how the world exposes young girls and boys to the objectification of women, the idea that women and girls are appreciated/judged on their sex appeal and that being sexy makes you popular - these subliminal messages are everywhere, even if you try and keep it out.

My DD1 has always been extremely influenced by her peers when it comes to culture and dress (from being all about princesses at 3 to Taylor Swift at 8 to what she wears at 10, all of which has come from her peers). How do I make her feel confident in following her own decisions on these issues, or that her parents can be good influences on this front (she thinks we are hopelessly uncool)? Or is it just what kids do at this age?

Hope this isn't too much of a digression/hijack, but I would love to get advice (or suggestions for books) about parenting in a way that promotes openness and confidence in the teenage years and beyond.

[SnuggleBuggles]

In reading this thread, my response is less about what age kids are having sex (definitely no surprise to me that teens are having sex), and more about how to parent young kids in a way that is supportive, educational and protective. I would love to hear from folks with older kids, or those who work with older kids (or those with younger kids who have been consciously parenting in this way) about how to parent in a way that:
--shares your values (to use a term from StantonHyde) on issues related to relationships, intimacy and sex;
--keeps the doors wide open for them to come to you with anything at any time;
--makes sure kids are well-educated and comfortable discussing these issues with you;
--are generally cautious when it comes to big decisions;
--have good self-esteem and are not swayed by peer pressure to do things against their best judgement (goes for alcohol and drugs as well).

As a parent of an almost 11 year old who has always been precocious beyond her years, and a quite "young" seeming 6 year old, I have certainly been putting thought into this but by no means have all the answers. I think what I have been working on most is empowering them with knowledge - we have several books that we have read together and just made available to them, we have tried to discuss sex, periods etc with them (with varying success) and we are very matter of fact and/or positive when talking about how our bodies work. I've also been working on supporting their self-esteem - talking positively about our bodies, including my own, about their efforts and hard work, praising them for kindness and helpfulness, etc. It's a mixed bag - DD1 has good self-esteem about her competence and intelligence - she gets praise from many people other than us about how smart she is, creative etc, so may be a little too confident on this front. But I worry that she doesn't see herself as beautiful (she wears glasses and is at a tall, gawky phase right now) - I'm not sure if this is solved by praising her more on this front? I certainly make many statements about beauty coming from within, everyone being beautiful in their own way, complimenting people who are not conventionally beautiful, etc etc. We don't get any beauty mags, we don't even have a TV, but of course she has seen plenty of the glamor mags and ads out there in the world.

I hate to think about how the world exposes young girls and boys to the objectification of women, the idea that women and girls are appreciated/judged on their sex appeal and that being sexy makes you popular - these subliminal messages are everywhere, even if you try and keep it out.

My DD1 has always been extremely influenced by her peers when it comes to culture and dress (from being all about princesses at 3 to Taylor Swift at 8 to what she wears at 10, all of which has come from her peers). How do I make her feel confident in following her own decisions on these issues, or that her parents can be good influences on this front (she thinks we are hopelessly uncool)? Or is it just what kids do at this age?

Hope this isn't too much of a digression/hijack, but I would love to get advice (or suggestions for books) about parenting in a way that promotes openness and confidence in the teenage years and beyond.

I have a teen and I really haven't stressed about this stuff. Dating hasn't come up yet but we just talk to each other about pretty much everything. It just comes naturally. I don't read parenting books and I don't worry about much. When things flow into conversations naturally, that's when we talk about them. I've given the boys some well respected puberty books (just found them via Amazon mostly) but haven't really talked about much together on that front. Dh actually had a good conversation with ds1 about things in the last year but I wasn't there. Basically boiled down to being respectful and responsible.

I'm not really on the same page as you regarding beauty standards but I also don't have girls. I was a girl though so here's my $.02...I really don't think you need to do anything wrt culture and dress other than let her find her way. She might choose to wear tiny tank tops and short skirts. If she's making that choice because she likes how it looks, you really don't need to dig for deeper meaning or concern. Have her dress appropriately for situations, obviously. :) But, it's ok to want to look a certain way for yourself. That way might be different than your way. Pre-teens and teens like to experiment. They find their way and find their comfort in who they are.

Anyway, when the time comes for these things, take a deep breath and don't try and plan it out too much.

[citymama]

I'm not really on the same page as you regarding beauty standards but I also don't have girls. I was a girl though so here's my $.02...I really don't think you need to do anything wrt culture and dress other than let her find her way. She might choose to wear tiny tank tops and short skirts. If she's making that choice because she likes how it looks, you really don't need to dig for deeper meaning or concern. Have her dress appropriately for situations, obviously. :) But, it's ok to want to look a certain way for yourself. That way might be different than your way. Pre-teens and teens like to experiment. They find their way and find their comfort in who they are.


To clarify, my issue is not what my kid or another chooses to wear. I'm a "live and let live" person who has never and will never body shame my kids or anyone else. That's not it at all. I'm talking about the way girls and women are objectified by the world around them whether they like it or not, and barraged with these images on billboards and ads and videos and magazine covers. The message that we are the sum of our boobs, butts and sex appeal - and how we please or displease others, esp. men, with our appearance - is everywhere (including in our President's rating every woman on a numerical scale based on their appearance and "sexiness").

[SnuggleBuggles]

To clarify, my issue is not what my kid or another chooses to wear. I'm a "live and let live" person who has never and will never body shame my kids or anyone else. That's not it at all. I'm talking about the way girls and women are objectified by the world around them whether they like it or not, and barraged with these images on billboards and ads and videos and magazine covers. The message that we are the sum of our boobs, butts and sex appeal - and how we please or displease others, esp. men, with our appearance - is everywhere (including in our President's rating every woman on a numerical scale based on their appearance and "sexiness").

I just don't see the world that way on average. :).


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[StantonHyde]

As to how you cultivate these conversations. DS is 14 and wants lots of facts and knowledge. DD is 11 and would rather hide under a rock about the whole thing. I follow their leads. They have known the scientific aspect of reproduction for as long as I can remember. I have always used anatomically correct names for body parts. I have done my best to raise them with good self esteem--we will see how it all plays out. When they asked questions, I answered with just enough to answer them and then let them ask for more details vs. downloading a ton of info at once. They have both read the 3 books in the "Its So Amazing Series" starting at around age 9 and going through age 10-11. I have kept the books because as they grow into the mature topics they can re-read them.

DS has had some issues with boys and girls in his class, specifically one that involved a boy grabbing girls' rear ends. He brought it up and we had a lengthy conversation about it. DH knew it was wrong, he was trying to understand why this would happen. I then emphatically told him that it was his duty as a man to call out/stop that behavior if he saw it and to report the girl(s) in reporting it. DD and I discussed this and she was pissed that it would happen. I emphatically told her that if anybody ever did that to her, she was to punch them in the nose and I would deal with the principal later. And i meant it. Those bullies need to be stopped and getting a talking to doesn't do it. I also told her if she was too scared or caught off guard to respond, that was ok too.

Both of my kids have decided that I am the person they want to talk to about all of these things. I wish they would talk to DH too, but they want to talk to me. Next year, DS will be in 8th grade and I will sit down with him and go over birth control and sexually transmitted infections. I teach those classes for Planned Parenthood, so feel comfortable talking to my kids about them. (actually I don't feel comfortable, I feel competent. I honestly wish I could trade with somebody else and they could teach my kids but that's not how it works!) I will also include statements to the fact that I hope they wait until they are in college to have sex and I can give them lots of reasons why they should wait and what to expect from sex. Starting in 9th grade, I will give him a "lecture" on consent so he is clear about this. It will be an issue for him because of his late birthday and being held back a year, he will be 18 as junior in high school. I will check state laws but I think he can't go near anybody under 18 at that point (or maybe its 16). I don't want him to get in trouble for dating a younger girl. As they get older, I intend to talk about general respect in relationships and how to avoid or get out of bad relationships.

So for me it is a combo of organic conversations, making educational materials available, and making myself available to talk. DD had a drugs lecture at her school earlier this week--from police officers telling them what drugs to look out for, a scientist discussing the impact of drugs on the brain, and a counselor talking about how to resist peer pressure. The counselor told the kids about having an "escape plan" --I have seen it called an "X plan"--where the kid texts a code word to the parents and then the parents call saying there is an emergency and they need to come get the kid. So we all decided on a code word. This conversation took place in the car driving to school.

I have only gotten this far. Who knows what will happen next week!!!!!

[citymama]

I just don't see the world that way on average. :).


The "I just grab them by the p***y" statement was unfortunately the first time my DD1 was really exposed to this kind of thinking. She heard it from boys at school and asked me what it was all about. She has thus had an early exposure also to the concept of taking back power when she asked me whether the pink hats at the march were about kitties or about what DJT had said. Ironic that the President provides teachable moments about how to respond to sexual harassment and predators - and not in the way one would want.

[bisous]

In reading this thread, my response is less about what age kids are having sex (definitely no surprise to me that teens are having sex), and more about how to parent young kids in a way that is supportive, educational and protective. I would love to hear from folks with older kids, or those who work with older kids (or those with younger kids who have been consciously parenting in this way) about how to parent in a way that:
--shares your values (to use a term from StantonHyde) on issues related to relationships, intimacy and sex;
--keeps the doors wide open for them to come to you with anything at any time;
--makes sure kids are well-educated and comfortable discussing these issues with you;
--are generally cautious when it comes to big decisions;
--have good self-esteem and are not swayed by peer pressure to do things against their best judgement (goes for alcohol and drugs as well).

As a parent of an almost 11 year old who has always been precocious beyond her years, and a quite "young" seeming 6 year old, I have certainly been putting thought into this but by no means have all the answers. I think what I have been working on most is empowering them with knowledge - we have several books that we have read together and just made available to them, we have tried to discuss sex, periods etc with them (with varying success) and we are very matter of fact and/or positive when talking about how our bodies work. I've also been working on supporting their self-esteem - talking positively about our bodies, including my own, about their efforts and hard work, praising them for kindness and helpfulness, etc. It's a mixed bag - DD1 has good self-esteem about her competence and intelligence - she gets praise from many people other than us about how smart she is, creative etc, so may be a little too confident on this front. But I worry that she doesn't see herself as beautiful (she wears glasses and is at a tall, gawky phase right now) - I'm not sure if this is solved by praising her more on this front? I certainly make many statements about beauty coming from within, everyone being beautiful in their own way, complimenting people who are not conventionally beautiful, etc etc. We don't get any beauty mags, we don't even have a TV, but of course she has seen plenty of the glamor mags and ads out there in the world.

I hate to think about how the world exposes young girls and boys to the objectification of women, the idea that women and girls are appreciated/judged on their sex appeal and that being sexy makes you popular - these subliminal messages are everywhere, even if you try and keep it out.

My DD1 has always been extremely influenced by her peers when it comes to culture and dress (from being all about princesses at 3 to Taylor Swift at 8 to what she wears at 10, all of which has come from her peers). How do I make her feel confident in following her own decisions on these issues, or that her parents can be good influences on this front (she thinks we are hopelessly uncool)? Or is it just what kids do at this age?

Hope this isn't too much of a digression/hijack, but I would love to get advice (or suggestions for books) about parenting in a way that promotes openness and confidence in the teenage years and beyond.

I love your questions. I have three sons and one 3yo daughter. She is growing up in a crazy world and she definitely has to deal with stuff that my boys don't have to deal with. I don't have great answers for you yet. I have thoughts that I'm starting to gather together as I try to inform myself about this.

First, I don't necessarily think that wanting to look attractive has to be tied to "sexiness". I mean, maybe it is tied in subtle almost imperceptible ways but I think there are a lot of little girls out there (maybe I was one) that is interested in fashion and makeup and hair. I feel like that can be viewed as a less worthy way to spend time and I'm sure that argument can be made but I know the girly part of me is happy to spend a little time on my appearance but I love science and I try to do good things for people too. I don't feel like I can't be a deep or a good person and still pursue some things that might be considered shallow. It really doesn't have to be for the boys. It isn't too far off interior design or art IMO.

Second, your DD might not appreciate your style. You might never be cool to her until she's much older. But I'm sure your confidence is helping her and how she feels about herself. You seem to be pretty confident in your skin and I'm sure she's absorbing that. Frankly that is one of the aspects of having a daughter that I'm not looking forward to, the rejection. I did it to my own mom as a teen. I think it is a nature part of separation. I don't get that vibe at all from my boys, but of course there are other things about raising a daughter that are quite amazing!

That goes to point three, or helping kids grow up is one part what you say and a huge part of who you are. I think words and discussions are oddly important. I used to kind of overlook that. But it isn't really words so much as communication and that takes two people. The relationship really informs the discussion. I think it is so great that you are looking into these issues because I think if you feel clarity about them then you'll be effective at helping her through it more.

Finally, this might sound weird and is the most theoretical so to speak, but I lived in France for a couple of years and French girls really do have something special. And it is ALL attitude. More than fashion or figure, they have a confidence that is really neat to see. I remember being on a crowded bus and seeing a stunning woman get on the bus. She was so interesting looking but really, really beautiful. It was only after a moment that I realized that she actually had a really big nose. I thought that if she was in America she'd probably wear her hair differently to kind of cover or block the nose. Her look would be all about camouflaging that flaw. Instead, she wore her hair back but all I noticed were her eyes and her smile. I kind of felt like it was the idea that in France beauty comes from uniqueness and individuality and in America it comes from conformity to an ideal. I saw this, but I'm not sure how to teach it to my daughter.

[lizzywednesday]

... But I worry that she doesn't see herself as beautiful (she wears glasses and is at a tall, gawky phase right now) - I'm not sure if this is solved by praising her more on this front? I certainly make many statements about beauty coming from within, everyone being beautiful in their own way, complimenting people who are not conventionally beautiful, etc etc. We don't get any beauty mags, we don't even have a TV, but of course she has seen plenty of the glamor mags and ads out there in the world. ...

I think telling your daughter she's beautiful can backfire. My parents always told me I was beautiful and I resented it. It felt like they said it because they "had to" as part of being my parents. :shrug:

Even today, I tend to think of myself as very plain or average-looking. I know how to disappear in a crowd, but I also know how to play up my favorite features (bone structure, height, eyelashes, eye shape, etc.) if I'm going to be dressing up for an event or interview or whatever.

I don't value my own looks; they're secondary to how I feel about myself. Even today, hearing about my looks only makes me feel annoyed.

HOWEVER, if your DD1 seems to feel like her appearance is something she should value, maybe chatting with her about why she feels that way and what might help her feel better or more confident about it would help?

[american_mama]

double post below

[american_mama]

My DD1 is almost 15, DD2 is 12 and DS is 8. A couple thoughts:

I suspect there are no clear answers, no how-to kit no matter what family you talk to. You get other parents' ideas and practices, you read and inform yourself, and you make something that is your own, even if it seems incomplete or you are uncertain. Very much like what you are doing already and with this post.

We are also so limited by our sample. My oldest child is a girl, but a bit of a loner, fairly independent. I can't tell you much about her take on pop culture issues or influences because she doesn't care much. Another 9th grade girl would be very different.

Your DH is probably a resource and an obstacle because you will not be in complete agreement or comfort level even if you think you will be. Your own children may change the terms - for instance, my girls have rejected my DH doing things for them that he used to do when they were younger (like detangling their very difficult hair) and only want me to do it, which creates less of a role for DH. My attention to detail means I remember teacher and friend names and ask my DDs about them, but DH is not good at this and no longer has face-to-face experience with friends/teachers to supplement his knowledge. Thus, his relationship with the girls has shrunk. DD2 has gotten more involved with sports, which DH likes, so their relationship largely relates to that now, leaving the other kids and other aspects of DD2 to me. I think this is a huge weakness in our family right now, so it may not be so extreme for you, but I think many families experience some of these issues. My DH is also comfortable with puberty, sexuality, etc. even for his daughters - but he does not show that in the way I anticipated. Again, my DDs are more comfortable with me on these topics, so they reject him. He teases about things that I think my girls misread. He lectures when I think he should support. One small example - my shy DD1 mentioned that an unknown boy might have been flirting with her in the lunch line. This seemed, to both of us, an unusual topic for her to bring up and one that caused her some pleasure. DH responded by saying something like make sure you date someone who has some substance. I told him later that a lesson about a further away topic - dating - was both lecturing and ignored the issue right at hand, which was DD1's pleasure at being the potential object of flirtation. I told DH that as a teen, it would have meant a ton to me if my dad had said something supportive of my looks or likelihood of getting boy attention, and that a dad normalizing that to his daughter is different than a mom normalizing it.

Porn. Don't dismiss the exposure your kids can get to it through the internet, at any age, either solo or when with friends. I've had friends with boys of all ages google big boobs, breasts, pussy, or whatever sexual issue or anatomy strikes their curiousity.... and what the internet opens up to them is never age-appropriate. This exposure to porn is is probably true for girls too, especially in group settings and especially as girls are in teen years, but I've heard of it in connection with boys.

You don't say in what way your daughter is precocious, but I have started to notice that the physically smallest girls in middle school seem to be the most naive. That's a huge generalization, but what I am starting to sense. Maybe the parents don't initiate the talk(s), or the girls have no interest because nothing in their body, physically or hormonally, is telling them to pay attention, or society treats the girls as little girls so the girls act that way longer? Just something I wonder about. Anyway, if you have a physically precocious daughter, I'd say give her more facts and values sooner, but also encourage her to remain her age. If she is tall, cuvy and wearing a bra but still likes toys... that is all perfectly age appropriate for her body and perfectly age appropriate for her personality. She doesn't have to act older than her age even if people mistake her for someone older. If she is precocious as in interested in boys and romance, then do the same thing, hit her early with info, with a heavy emphasis on values and behavior you are looking for. I have seen many girls who were interested in boys/romance/boyfriends as children, in a way that might have been not been the parent's ideal but seemed benign, and then those girls jump right into boy interest in middle school, or even 5th grade. They'll find like-minded friends, engage as a group with boys so that they get the interaction they want but without any individual needing the courage or ability to do it alone. If your DD wants all this but isn't sure of herself, she'll probably take on the follower role. I pass on some advice from a co-worker wtih slightly older kids - be the parent who does pickup from parties, dances, extracurricular events. You'll hear the group talking in the car about what transpired and learn things your kid won't tell you.

In my DD1's older middle school GIrl Scout troop, I got a little view of how different other girls can be.... one boy-crazy girl, several many pop-culture oriented girls, and my kind of clueless nerd girl. I asked a neighbor who teaches middle school and has 3 kids similar in age to me what is normal, and she said there is huge variation at this age. Based on this year (9th grade), I would guess it is kind of evening out a little. But middle school still seems to have huge variation in physical development, maturity, interest, knowledge... everything.

Fiction books as sources of info. Just lately, I am realizing that books - my good friend, books, supported by parents and teachers everywhere - are presenting stories, thoughts, emotions about sex and relationships that I am unaware of, and, knowing my daughters, I think these deeper presentations might have more impact on my girls than a fairly superficial movie. I control my kids movie and TV use pretty well anyway, and they aren't into teen movies anyway, but I don't control their books, nor did I think about doing so. For instance, DD2 has been reading the Divergent series recently and told me there is a lot of sex, a "gender fluid" character, and an ongoing debate between two main characters about whether they will or won't have sex. I would really like to know how my DD2 is seeing that conversation play out, and I had no idea it was part of the series. DD2 also read a motivational, biographical book for school about boys from a tough neighborhood who all made their way into great professional success. I can't imagine that story was told without some very specific info. about drugs, gangs. We haven't talked much about drugs in our house, as they seem very far away from my kids' daily lives. DD1 reads all teen or adult books now, ones that I have zero interest in.... but I wonder what she is learning. I don't plan to censor, but I also don't plan to read everything they read. I just didn't realize what a window books are for my daughters into other personalities, values, situations, etc. Which is the point of books! But one I forgot about.

Other friends as sources of info. My DD1 is still friends with many of the same girls that I got to know in 6th grade. I kind of patted myself on the back then for getting to know them and them still being her crowd.... and I only recently have realized that I haven't kept up. They are not the same as 3 years ago. I don't know what they talk about, whether they have relationships, whether they talk or laugh about important topics I'd approve or disapprove of. But surely my DD1 is getting plenty of info from them about facts (hopefully not alternative facts!), feelings, values, etc. DD1 just got her first cell phone and I don't know whwat they text about, what photos they share. I am only now realizing the need to get to know friends again and again over time, even the same ones, to be blunt about DD1 checking info with me if something sounds odd, to get DD1s values more set so she can hold on to them even if others values are different. If you'd asked me in 6th grade, I would have said we're on a great track for that. But I have not kept it up. Other things have derailed us... the need to keep up with all the other elements of life and problems and multiple kids, plus the plain old fact exists that what I don't know about my child and her world is increasing at a much faster pace at this age. The unknown, uninvolved, uncontrolled grows at every age with kids, but it spikes up sharply in later middle school.... and probably again in middle high school. I am only recognizing that fully now.

Lastly, your final point about beauty standards and sexualization of girls and women. I completely agree this exists. But I was surprised a few weeks ago when I did a media weekend for Girl Scouts with DD2's troop. There were 9 girls there, six in 6th grade and one each a year older and younger. Not many of them had their own cell phones. They used very little traditional media like magazines, some watched TV, but the still images and texts of social media, and music, were the dominant media in their lives. They seemed pretty far away from being influenced by the beauty myth. I wondered if they were just a little young for the full effect? In particular, I paid a lot of attention in the program to beauty ads in magazines, beauty images of models, advertising tricks, photoshop.... but I had the impression that print advertising, and all its messages, was kind of out of their sphere even though they see it on billboards, magazines in the checkout line. Maybe I notice these messages and they don't? How can they NOT notice? I also realized that their sense of the past is still so short. If plus-size models and "body positive messages" have been getting more acceptance and cover pages the last 2 or 3 years.... well, the past 2 or 3 years is kind of everything to an 11 year old. Their world, for this moment, is influenced by what's current rather than the weight of what came before... in 3 years, they'll have even more memories and be more influenced by what came before, and even more as they age. Teens spend HOURS every day on some form of media, so I know it has an effect. Yet I didn't see as much negative body image or frustration with beauty or other stereotypes as I expected to see from this group of girls at our media weekend.

So, no advice, but maybe a few things to chew on from someone just a few years ahead.

[citymama]

Thanks American mama - lots of food for thought. Re in what way DD1 is precocious, what I was referring to is emotionally and intellectually, although she is certainly a tall kid. Her body is tall but still pre-pubescent, showing signs of change (breast buds) in a way that's average for her age (days shy of 11). Some of her peers wear bras and have already entered puberty, several are a head shorter than her and look much younger. She's one of those kids who was 3 going on 13 as a preschooler and is 11 going on 18 now (and occasionally 11 acting like she's 3) in terms of her emotional maturity. She is on a swim team, soccer league, Girl Scouts, Junior Rangers, all of which can be really great team activities for building strong, healthy kids.