Balancing High Standards vs. Perfectionism -- looking for discussion, not advice.

[anonomom]

Interesting article in the WaPo this morning:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2018/01/25/lets-stop-telling-stressed-out-kids-theyre-putting-too-much-pressure-on-themselves-its-making-things-worse/?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-lifestyle%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.7ae284c80488

I find myself thinking about this a lot, especially as DD1 gets older (she's in 6th grade). From my perspective, it's ok if my kids get a bad grade if that represents the best work they can do. If I see DD study for a test, complete and check her homework carefully, and ask her teacher for help on concepts she doesn't understand, and she still gets a C, we're cool. The trick so far has been teaching her what "trying" means -- in her mind, if she turns in homework (even if it's illegibly written and sloppily done), then shows up the day of the test and pays attention just long enough to provide an answer to each question (but not long enough to look over/re-check her answers), then she has tried her best and a "C" is the best she can do.

We have had so many arguments over this in the past few years, with DD claiming that we expect her to be perfect and us trying to convey that we absolutely do not expect her ever to be perfect, but that we do expect her to try her best. If things continue as they have been, I fully expect that DD will be one of the kinds of kids mentioned in this article, feeling pressured for perfection. For this particular child, she cannot yet see the difference between us having outsized expectations of her and us having any expectation of her at all. Any pressure, it seems, is too much.

But as parents, what are we supposed to do? It feels like it would be parental malpractice to NOT teach our kids that hard work is valuable, how and why they need to study, that there's pleasure in a job well done, and that goals are worth having and striving to meet. Left to their own devices, my kids would happily drift through life, watching television, playing video games, eating junk food and playing with friends. All of these things are great and fun, but kids (mine, at least) need to be pushed to do more than that if they are ever to become self-sufficient adults.

Anyway, just wondering how others are walking this tightrope (if you are at all).

[Pear]

We face this problem as well. Most things come very easy to DD, so when they don’t she gets extremely frustrated and often refuses to even try. There have been some at School meltdowns even that earned her a referral to the counselor.. The kid can max out a standardized test (she got to a page the teacher didn’t even understand) and then get an F on a simple math quiz the next day.. We keep trying to find a way to push her to work to her potential, without making her think we are demanding perfection and saying she can never fail.

[ang79]

I am worried about my 5th grader, especially as she gets older. I think she does put a lot of the pressure on herself. She has always been this way, even in kindergarten if she worked on an art project and it didn't turn out the way she wanted at first she would tear it up and throw it away and get upset. We've had some episodes like that with homework this year. We have been working with using calming techniques and guided meditation when she gets super worked up and that has helped some.

She will also say that others around her expect her to be perfect. On several occasions she says kids at school will joke that they can't believe she missed a problem on a math test or something. I'm guessing it is innocent joking on their part, but my daughter takes it very personally. She internalizes everything (like if the teacher tells the class they are generally being too loud and not following directions, even if my daughter is following directions she thinks the teacher is personally yelling at her. Her teachers know this and now try to let her know that they are addressing others in the class, not her specifically.) My husband and I (and her teachers) really try to encourage her to not stress if she misses something, but instead use that as a learning tool. Yet she still feels like if she doesn't get it right the first time, she has failed. When we say we want her to just try her best, she hears that we want her to be perfect, and I don't know how to help her see that those two things are not the same. She also really struggles with thinking outside of the box to problem solve. She's great at following rules and guidelines, but if you give her a project without these rules and guidelines she is lost, because she doesn't have the plan of how to do it "perfectly" to get that A+ grade. Her teachers this year are giving her extension work in several classes to encourage more creative problem solving to try to help with this. They encourage her to try new things and that its OK to not get it right the first time. My husband and I also try to actively point out when we make mistakes, to try to normalize that, and then show how we can learn from our mistakes. It is exhausting parenting her at times though, like all the stress she carries overflows onto the rest of us. My third grader is more relaxed and easy going, but at times she picks up on what her sister is doing and copies her actions and words. I'm hoping she doesn't struggle with this as much as her sister as she gets older.

[nfceagles]

I don't have much to add yet or time to add anything at the moment, but I sure wish I knew the answer to this. I have the same parenting dilemma. Hope to follow and add to discussion later.


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[magnoliaparadise]

This is a concern of mine, too. My kids are both perfectionists in different ways and it causes a huge amount of anxiety. I have some of it, too, and ironically can sometimes not get things done or done efficiently because of it (e.g. if I don't watch myself, I can put off writing an important email or document or conversation or decision because I don't think it will be 'perfect' - really not useful thinking!!). I am following this thread. I will read the article. Thank you for posting.

[mnj77]

DD puts a lot of pressure on herself too, and can get frustrated if she doesn’t understand something right away. I’ve seen some progress in this area lately though. She’s applying for middle schools and I had to write an essay about her. I framed it around how she’s working on taking risks and adopting a growth mindset, and since she read it I’ve really seen her embrace those concepts wholeheartedly. I think seeing it written down in an “official document” went a long way toward convincing her that its acceptable to value growth over perfection.

[ellies mom]

I have this problem with my oldest. I don't have an issue with a C if you did your best work but just don't get it. I do have an issue with a C if you couldn't be bothered to try. Drives me crazy. Best work and perfect aren't the same.




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[Moneypenny]

We had/have this issue with DD who is now in 8th grade. A couple of years ago she had a teacher who said, "No one can be an A+ student every day. No one can put forth A+ student effort all day, every day, " and a light bulb went off for me. We just expected DD to try her best, but I realized I sure don't try my best at everything all the time, and that's okay because I've learned over time what requires my best effort and what doesn't. So, DH and I shifted away from always telling DD to just try her best, and started trying to help her decide what she can do just "good enough" instead of "best". (We even use the Ron Swanson quote, “Don’t Half-ass two things, Whole-ass one thing”.) For example, she was spending hours on this coding homework for an elective class in which she already had an A+, and she wasn't really enjoying the homework. We talked about how she didn't need to work that hard on that project, especially when she had other homework to do. We gave her permission to do just "good enough" on that. I think that mindset has helped to take off some of the pressure, and she will now talk with us about what she thinks she should prioritize and what can be just good enough.

[Kindra178]

I have this problem with my oldest. I don't have an issue with a C if you did your best work but just don't get it. I do have an issue with a C if you couldn't be bothered to try. Drives me crazy. Best work and perfect aren't the same.




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But isn't best work and perfect the same thing for her?

[chlobo]

I am worried about my 5th grader, especially as she gets older. I think she does put a lot of the pressure on herself. She has always been this way, even in kindergarten if she worked on an art project and it didn't turn out the way she wanted at first she would tear it up and throw it away and get upset. We've had some episodes like that with homework this year. We have been working with using calming techniques and guided meditation when she gets super worked up and that has helped some.

She will also say that others around her expect her to be perfect. On several occasions she says kids at school will joke that they can't believe she missed a problem on a math test or something. I'm guessing it is innocent joking on their part, but my daughter takes it very personally. She internalizes everything (like if the teacher tells the class they are generally being too loud and not following directions, even if my daughter is following directions she thinks the teacher is personally yelling at her. Her teachers know this and now try to let her know that they are addressing others in the class, not her specifically.) My husband and I (and her teachers) really try to encourage her to not stress if she misses something, but instead use that as a learning tool. Yet she still feels like if she doesn't get it right the first time, she has failed. When we say we want her to just try her best, she hears that we want her to be perfect, and I don't know how to help her see that those two things are not the same. She also really struggles with thinking outside of the box to problem solve. She's great at following rules and guidelines, but if you give her a project without these rules and guidelines she is lost, because she doesn't have the plan of how to do it "perfectly" to get that A+ grade. Her teachers this year are giving her extension work in several classes to encourage more creative problem solving to try to help with this. They encourage her to try new things and that its OK to not get it right the first time. My husband and I also try to actively point out when we make mistakes, to try to normalize that, and then show how we can learn from our mistakes. It is exhausting parenting her at times though, like all the stress she carries overflows onto the rest of us. My third grader is more relaxed and easy going, but at times she picks up on what her sister is doing and copies her actions and words. I'm hoping she doesn't struggle with this as much as her sister as she gets older.

Wow, you have pretty much described my 8th grader daughter to a T. Let me know if gain any insight. My daughter was sobbing the other day because she did poorly on a math test (her first time doing poorly) and she was convinced she would never get in to College.

[ellies mom]

But isn't best work and perfect the same thing for her?

In her case, not really. She is smart enough to get As. What stops her from getting As is not completing her work and turning it in on time. Getting a B in band because you can't be bothered to bring me the practice calendar to sign is nothing like best work. Goofing off all afternoon while we are at work and then carrying on at 9pm about not doing homework is not best work. Doing sloppy work because you procrastinate is not best work.

If you do your math homework, study for your test and get a C, I don't have a problem with that. If you blow off your homework, don't study and then get a C, well yeah, I have problem with that.


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[ged]

The struggle is real. Looking forward to more discussion on this!

[bisous]

I feel like with every child the ideal amount of push and the ideal amount of praise will be highly variable. There really is a sweet spot between perfectionism and hard work but I feel like it is in a different place for everyone. Growing up I tended to get lessons about how doing your best is good enough and DH got lessons about how "the good is the enemy of the great". These seem like these are contradictory but I don't think they necessarily are--instead I think they're both parts of working towards achieving our ultimate potential. Maybe if there is a way to teach that self-regulation to our kids?

I do think that is why physical work is so valuable though. I feel like inherently it comes with the lesson of what good hard work feels like without the psychological component of trying to determine if it is good enough. If you moved the pile of leaves, or rid the plot of weeds, or peel the potatoes you've done enough and you've brought value to the world and I do think that it is learned through experience.

My struggle is different than what many of you are struggling with. I have a kid with ADHD who is really happy to do a kind of sloppy job but I feel like to be successful he needs to apply himself more. It is hard to determine what he is capable of (since his abilities are below what others his age might be capable of) and what might truly be beyond his reach. I often say glibly that he needs a little MORE anxiety about the work he is putting forward but honestly I'm trying to communicate that he needs to do a little better without giving him a complex.

[hbridge]

Every child is different and needs different "strategies" to be successful... Find what works for each child!

My DC gets A's or F's, there is very little in between. Pressure or being told to "put in your best effort" won't solve the problems with the F's. We work together to find out what is getting in DC's way; it's a daily discussion. There is no getting angry or disappointed, just pointing out what is going on!

[ahisma]

We face this often. Academics come easily to DS1, and he puts more pressure on himself than anyone else does. I have very, very little involvement in his homework, he navigates that all himself. I worry that he isn't learning a work ethic, but we try to address that through other outlets (music practice, chores, hiking, etc.). Still, he expects nothing short of perfection from himself and literally broke down in tears when he got a B+ on a pop quiz in 4th grade. We put very little emphasis on grades (because there's no need to, really), it was all internal within him.

More recently, was incredibly stressed about midterms. He's an elementary kid who is grade level accelerated to the middle school for math, so it's his first experience with them and probably missed out of some of the framing discussions at the school. I could see visible relief when I told him that his midterm grades would have zero impact on his adult life. He will ace them easily, but needed to know that it's okay NOT to.

On the flip side, DS2 is really just as capable academically, but presents differently. He's a holistic thinker and struggles in the stage of learning when he's gathering the various components - it frustrates him until he sees the big picture. He also struggles with anxiety. He often rushes to get things done so he can be free of the pressure of doing them, and as a result doesn't do his best work. We work to find the balance between appropriate effort (generally in respect to neatness, the content is generally fine) and mitigating his stress.

[dogmom]

At some point we fall back on the “My job is to be a parent and make the best decisions with the information I have. Your job is to go to school and do the best you can. I will certainly talk with you about how we can do things differently that work better for you, but sometimes I’m going to make a decision you don’t like.”

It sounds very autocratic, but I also let them know it the thing I worry about most. That after they flip out and scream at me about something one hour later they are eating cookies and watching TV. 3 hours later I’m staring at the ceiling wondering if I’m a good mother. It helps that both my DH and I share things we wished our parents had done differently.

[ezcc]

This is so hard- I do think that motivation really does need to come from within. My kids are at a Sudbury school, so I have really been brainwashed by that philosophy but I have seen how well it works. I really do doubt that your kids would be aimless drifters if you let them- nobody does that for very long even when given the opportunity. My oldest child has moved on to a rigorous private school after 6 years where he was free to do whatever he wanted (within the parameters of the school community and its rules) and he is thriving- completely self motivated. It's so difficult to do, but I have completely been sold on not pushing kids (I mean I require them to clean their rooms/help around the house and be generally good members of our family) and letting them figure it out for themselves. It's difficult though I know!

[niccig]

We have similar issue over here. DS says we expect him to be perfect. We told DS that getting a C in a class that is difficult and he diligently tries is very different to a C because he didn’t hand in the homework. We were hands off beginning of the year as he started well but as the semester went on, he started to not hand in work. His science teacher spoke to us about helping him get organized.

I’ve worked on executive functioning skills with patients with TBI, but not teenagers so I did some continuing education classes in executive functioning for teenagers. They really do need help to get organized and plan things out. The norms for middle schoolers for planning ahead is 2-3 days, that’s as far as they can see ahead, which is why leave things to last minute. DS complains when I make him get out planner to see homework, check binder, then make him plan out the week for what he has to do when, but he did admit he felt less overwhelmed.


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[theriviera]

We had/have this issue with DD who is now in 8th grade. A couple of years ago she had a teacher who said, "No one can be an A+ student every day. No one can put forth A+ student effort all day, every day, " and a light bulb went off for me. We just expected DD to try her best, but I realized I sure don't try my best at everything all the time, and that's okay because I've learned over time what requires my best effort and what doesn't. So, DH and I shifted away from always telling DD to just try her best, and started trying to help her decide what she can do just "good enough" instead of "best". (We even use the Ron Swanson quote, “Don’t Half-ass two things, Whole-ass one thing”.) For example, she was spending hours on this coding homework for an elective class in which she already had an A+, and she wasn't really enjoying the homework. We talked about how she didn't need to work that hard on that project, especially when she had other homework to do. We gave her permission to do just "good enough" on that. I think that mindset has helped to take off some of the pressure, and she will now talk with us about what she thinks she should prioritize and what can be just good enough.

I really love this. When they are in the workplace it is so valuable to be able to prioritize, and to ask your manager to help you prioritize. In some cases 80% is good enough.


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[Dream]

We have similar issues, my 2 daughters are quite the opposites. My older one, 4th grader, doesn't want to work hard. I was telling her to be more organized and she said flat out that being organize is hard and she doesn't want to do anything that is hard. She just wants to complete the HW and be done, doesn't take pride in her work. I'm trying my best to make her understand that hard work pays offs and that you have to work hard to be successful in anything. Now my younger one is the total opposites. She works hard at everything. What ever she does she wants to do it well. I'm worried about facing her first failure as I feel she's going to be heart broken. Her teachers have glowing reviews of her. She came home one day upset and asked me who's a 'nerd'? Apparently her classmates said she's a nerd. I felt so sad for her, and they're only in 1st grade, I didn't want her to see hard working as a bad thing. So not matter how they are there's always difficulties they'll have to face.

[anonomom]

I really love this. When they are in the workplace it is so valuable to be able to prioritize, and to ask your manager to help you prioritize. In some cases 80% is good enough.


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I agree with you, to a degree. Kids do need to learn how to prioritize and to know when "done is better than perfect."

But I think that's a lesson/skill that needs to come after knowing how to work hard. If you don't learn how to put 100% into something, then you won't know what 80% feels like. I'm articulating this poorly, but what I'm getting at is that DD believes -- really, truly, in her soul -- that she IS putting in 100% effort when, for example, she takes a test and tries to get each answer correct. And if she gets a poor grade, well, then, there was nothing else she could have done. The fact that she might have considered studying for the test before it happened, or checking her answers after she finished to catch any careless errors, does not even occur to her. She literally does not understand yet what hard work actually is, and our efforts to teach her have been abject failures so far.

[mikala]

I thought of this thread while discussing this article with a friend today. My friend was diagnosed with ADD as an adult and felt this really described her experiences well. I don't know if any of the children discussed above have ADD but it might be food for thought on how some kids run hot and cold on their effort and focus.

http://www.additudemag.com/symptoms-of-add-hyperarousal-rejection-sensitivity/

[niccig]

Dies she know how to keep herself organized, does she keep her planner updated so she knows to study the night before? I was getting annoyed with DS until I did an executive function training class to learn what’s expected at his age. I had an aha moment, and know sit with him Mondays with planner and have him list what he has to do on each day. I do have to tell him to go get started each day, but he checks list and then gets started.


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