DC getting hurt in aftercare.. (update #13)

[♥ms.pacman♥]

(updated in post #13) My DD and DS (1st & 2nd grade) go to aftercare at their school. They have liked it for the most part (this is their second year there). And I like it bc it's convenient and very cheap. And they get them to do their homework so i don't have to deal with it :)

However, there is a kid there (my DS's grade) that routinely misbehaves (to put it very mildly) and i am getting concerned for my DC. This kid was in DS's class one year and DS was always commenting how he is always getting into trouble. DS has told me that he has done things like throw another kid's lunchbox across the room during lunch, throw a chair across the room during class and how several teachers had to come into the room and deal and how all the kids had to wait outside. One time last year in aftercare, this same kid tripped DS, causing him to fall and rip his pants (DS came home *so upset* that day).

Today when i picked them up from aftercare, my kids were telling me that DD and her friend were standing talking and this kid just ran over and ran into DD's friend so hard she collided with DD, with both of them falling to the ground, in between two tables. While they are ok, it was enough for both of them be in tears. (FWIW, both DD and this friend are TINY, and about 40-ish lbs, while this boy is about the size of my DS, about 70 lbs). DS said he yelled at the kid to stop and he just kept running off and didn't care at all. DS was telling me that he was also upset that he said the teachers wouldn't let him get an ice pack for DD, but i'm honestly think the aftercare teachers are overwhelmed with dealing with this kid. I know it's being addressed at least to some degree by aftercare teachers bc i see them putting him in a timeout chair often and i know they've talked to his dad multiple times.

it's getting to the point that i'm concerned for my DC being in aftercare (especially for DD - she is so much smaller. plus she has selective mutism and just clams up and doesn't speak when she is very afraid). . it's unfortunate bc otherwise, they do like aftercare bc they get to play outside a lot and get to play with some of their other friends there (they often hate it when i pick them up!). And it is such a convenient option for us! DS says they are not always in the same "group" in aftecare with this kid. But these multiple incidents have me concerned for my kiddos. DH was pissed and wondering why this kid hasn't been kicked out of the aftercare program, and i'm curious about this too. Any other parents (esp teachers) can chime in? Seriously, what does it take to be kicked out of aftercare? This kids' behavior is pretty rough to say the least. To be clear, i do NOT believe this is a bullying situation as i don't believe my DC are being targeted..this kid just seems to be out of control.

i personally cannot fathom a kid throwing a chair across the room...

[hillview]

Schedule a sit down with the aftercare lead/head and express your concern for their physical safety and let them know you have considered looking elsewhere. Depending on that goes, consider documenting what happens to your kids via email to the head.

[PZMommy]

I would talk to the aftercare teachers about your concerns.

They legally can’t tell you about what they are doing with the other student. They can only tell you what they can do for your child. If this other student has any sort of IEP or special needs (which it sounds like he might need), he may be protected from being kicked out. If not, I’m guessing they have to do a certain number of write ups and warnings to get him removed. I know at the aftercare my kids go to, parents of kids with special needs, are able to get a one on one for their child for the aftercare program. Our after care is not cheap though. It is run through the YMCA, and quite costly. They run an amazing program though.

[AnnieW625]

Schedule a sit down with the aftercare lead/head and express your concern for their physical safety and let them know you have considered looking elsewhere. Depending on that goes, consider documenting what happens to your kids via email to the head.

:yeahthat:


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[♥ms.pacman♥]

Thanks all. That is good point about documenting all the incidents. I really need to talk to the aftercare teachers. Though I’m not sure what they can do or tell me.

It is so frustrating bc I had just talked to aftercare teachers about splitting up DS and DD in aftercare, to try to get DD to talk more and be more independent from DS (she is super shy, has selective mutism and often lets DS talk for her in upsetting situations ) . They had talked earlier this week about putting DS with older grades so that DD would be ok her own. When I told DD about this she literally sobbed and said she was scared to be without DS. I considered just splitting up anyway but then yesterday after the incident of DD getting knocked down had me thinking...a lot of fear she has is from this kid and she is scared to not have DS there. So I feel like I cannot in good conscience split them up now bc she honestly has every good reason to be afraid. :(. I will have to talk to the aftercare teachers about this at least.

[twowhat?]

Awww that sucks!!! Don't split them up! For my twins, being split up during the day at school is more than enough!

Agree to talk to the aftercare teachers/director - hopefully other parents are doing the same so that you're not the only one sounding your concern. Definitely don't be afraid to tell them that you're considering taking them elsewhere for aftercare!!!

Our aftercare (separate preschool/daycare facility) has absolutely kicked kids out before!!! They have a system of strikes where they try to resolve serious behavior issues with the parent(s) but when they can't, it is affecting other kids and they will kick out the problem child.

[StantonHyde]

Remember to focus your conversation on "what will you do to keep my DD safe"? That is different than "what are you doing about that kid". They can't tell you the second part. You can work with them on the first question. It sounds like she needs some safeguards regardless of who is in aftercare.

The other option is to look into aftercare programs that are run by outside entities that pick up at your school. (the Y, Boys and Girls Clubb, JCC, etc)

And--yes, kids throw things all the time. Especially in lower grades. A chair is a bit different but not off the bell curve.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Thanks all. I will discuss with aftercare teachers next week and mention concern for DD’s safety. Will suggest not splitting up DS and DD for now

And I don’t know, I think a 7yo throwing a chair across the room is well out of the ordinary, and I’m surprised the kid wasn’t kicked out of aftercare or even school for it. Sure my kids sometimes get angry and throw things at each other (crayons, etc) sometime but a kid in classroom throwing a chair at a teacher is pretty out there. DS mentioned when it happened his teacher had to get ice pack for her foot, and 3 teachers had to intervene while all the other students had to wait outside. There have been many disruptive incidents and it does seem to stress both my kids out.

[StantonHyde]

Thanks all. I will discuss with aftercare teachers next week and mention concern for DD’s safety. Will suggest not splitting up DS and DD for now

And I don’t know, I think a 7yo throwing a chair across the room is well out of the ordinary, and I’m surprised the kid wasn’t kicked out of aftercare or even school for it. Sure my kids sometimes get angry and throw things at each other (crayons, etc) sometime but a kid in classroom throwing a chair at a teacher is pretty out there. DS mentioned when it happened his teacher had to get ice pack for her foot.

I work at a facility that treats kids who have behavior issues. This is honestly the least of what we have seen. This kid needs help, that's for sure. And this behavior needs to be addressed but you can't kick kids out of school for everything. If he threw chairs every day or every week, that would be different. DS has a kid in his class who has outbursts and does throw his desk sometimes. The kids don't really like him. I know his parents--they are awesome people and have other well adjusted kiddos. This one is just hard.

[mikala]

ms.pacman[emoji813];4284950]Thanks all. I will discuss with aftercare teachers next week and mention concern for DD’s safety. Will suggest not splitting up DS and DD for now

And I don’t know, I think a 7yo throwing a chair across the room is well out of the ordinary, and I’m surprised the kid wasn’t kicked out of aftercare or even school for it. Sure my kids sometimes get angry and throw things at each other (crayons, etc) sometime but a kid in classroom throwing a chair at a teacher is pretty out there. DS mentioned when it happened his teacher had to get ice pack for her foot.Gently, from what you've posted it seems like you likely have neurotypical kids. I totally understand your concern for the safety of your children and suggest documenting and discussing with the staff but I'd encourage you to refrain from judgement of the other child or assuming he should be kicked out of school.

From what you've posted I suspect there may be some special needs at play and it's entirely possible that the parents and school are working to diagnose and put supports in place.

The school IEP process is one component with its own timeline, and in my area it can also take several months to over a year for a private neuropsych assessment or a developmental pediatrician appointment. Once the child is diagnosed there is likely additional time waiting for a psychiatrist appointment and/or therapy services, then more time after waiting to see positive improvements from those interventions. Unfortunately life doesn't just stop while waiting for those appointments and treatment plans. Parents still have to go to their jobs and generally kids still go to school in the meantime.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Gently, from what you've posted it seems like you likely have neurotypical kids. I totally understand your concern for the safety of your children and suggest documenting and discussing with the staff but I'd encourage you to refrain from judgement of the other child or assuming he should be kicked out of school.

From what you've posted I suspect there may be some special needs at play and it's entirely possible that the parents and school are working to diagnose and put supports in place.

The school IEP process is one component with its own timeline, and in my area it can also take several months to over a year for a private neuropsych assessment or a developmental pediatrician appointment. Once the child is diagnosed there is likely additional time waiting for a psychiatrist appointment and/or therapy services. Unfortunately life doesn't just stop while waiting for those appointments and treatment plans. Parents still have to go to their jobs and generally kids still go to school in the meantime.

thanks for this info.

i have no judgement for the kid and the kid's parents. i get that people can be upstanding and involved parents and whatever and still have a kid that acts out pretty badly. FWIW, my brother had ADHD, was always getting into trouble at school (got suspended once in 3rd grade) for offenses less than this. i also have friends who have had their own kids get kicked out of aftercare and even school (same district) for far lesser offenses. So my surprise of this stems largely out of that...it just does not seem consistent across the board. nonetheless, not like i'm going to mention this or whatever, it was just a speculation.

And of course, my main concern is safety for my kids, especially DD. i just feel bad that my DC seem often stressed about it and that we may have to seek other options. Yes, there are other aftercares that pick up from the school, and my DC did go to one a couple years ago. But they are more $$$ and require a long bus ride for DC and are further away from our house in rush hour traffic. It seems rather unfair that we would have to make all these changes bc kids do not feel safe in an aftercare.

i think it should be a balance between wanting to be inclusive of everyone vs. considering the needs of all the other kids. i imagine that having to see repeated disruptive/violent outbursts in class can be very upsetting especially for anxious and sensitive kids.

[StantonHyde]

thanks for this info.
i think it should be a balance between wanting to be inclusive of everyone vs. considering the needs of all the other kids. i imagine that having to see repeated disruptive/violent outbursts in class can be very upsetting especially for anxious and sensitive kids.

My son has anxiety and ADD--he is disrupted by kids who act out in class. It has been a great lesson for him. He has had to learn to ask the teacher for support (this was in 7th grade)--e.g.moving seats. And he has had to learn to cope with a less than ideal learning situation. We talked about it and I gave him all sorts of tips and support. I did not feed into his anxiety. There were a couple of times when I sent the teacher an email to also ask for a change of seats but that was it. Yes, my child was impacted. He will be impacted when he takes public transit or flies on a plane or in the workplace. He has to learn to perform even when everything is not ideal. We all do.

Now I do draw the line at physical threats or physical harm or even bullying. There has to be a pattern aimed at my kid over time. Or one horribly egregious act. But a kid throwing a chair at a teacher once. nope. I will leave it to the school to handle that one.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

ok, wanted to give a (not good) update. today my kids came home telling us that this boy had gotten upset at something, started screaming and shouting that he "I hate Mr. (teacher's name)! I'm going to kill Mr. xxx! I'm going to kill him!" and flipped over a table.:( And also started shouting how he hated a certain female classmate. my DS mentioned the other kids were so shocked at this outburst and they became scared as he started chasing after other kids in the class (DS mentioned one kid hid under another table to escape from this kid, but he caught him and tackled him). DS did say the aftercare teachers eventually took him out of the classroom to the office and he didn't return that day.

anyway, hoping next week one of us (me or DH) can get chance to talk to the head aftercare teacher after this. i feel for the kid, especially as it seems possible he could be getting abused or is having issues at home (by the sounds of it, he seems to have ongoing state of rage), but this is obviously a recurring pattern (multiple incidents a week, affecting my DC) and cannot really continue. I think it's unfair to hold a group of kids hostage to this sort of behavior on a repeated basis. DD was complaining her head hurt after getting home, telling me that after this outburst she and most other kids immediately ran outside to escape from how and how she tripped and hit her head on a window ledge but "I couldn't stop or tell the teacher bc (this kid) was running after us." :( They were outside for a while without their jackets (it was windy and in the low 40s today) because they hadn't expected to be outside and had run outside in a hurry to get away.

today i talked to a coworker with a daughter at same school (who is in DD"s grade) and he was telling me he recently pulled her out of the aftercare for similar reasons, saying he felt the teachers there couldn't get a adequate handle on some kids' behavior and had concerns over her safety/well-being. sigh. so, not sure i have high hopes here...

[doberbrat]

Is the aftercare run by the school or is it an outside vendor like the YMCA etc? Personally, I would not wait until next week to see if you/DH can meet with the lead teacher - I would demand a meeting tomorrow. I would also request an immediate meeting with the principal the children who were present today should meet with the adjustment counselor to make sure they're ok.

As a pp said, Focus on your children's safety. Physical and emotional. They have a legal duty to keep all kids safe. after the meeting, I would followup with a letter to document your concerns in writing. I would also start keeping a log of all the incidents. :(

[hillview]

Formally make an appointment. Keep a record of everything that happens — what your dc report. Provide this in writing to the head. Ask for a plan to keep your children safe.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

Is the aftercare run by the school or is it an outside vendor like the YMCA etc? Personally, I would not wait until next week to see if you/DH can meet with the lead teacher - I would demand a meeting tomorrow. I would also request an immediate meeting with the principal the children who were present today should meet with the adjustment counselor to make sure they're ok.

As a pp said, Focus on your children's safety. Physical and emotional. They have a legal duty to keep all kids safe. after the meeting, I would followup with a letter to document your concerns in writing. I would also start keeping a log of all the incidents. :(

The aftercare is run by the school district.

I am definitely keeping a log, although I think they are well aware of everything...i am guessing it is just matter of not having enough resources /manpower to handle this kid’s behavior.

And I would talk to them this week but it is already so hectic..tomorrow evening is DS’s 2nd grade program and we will be rushing from work to get home early to have dinner before coming back to the program. Friday the kids have practices/activities so similar situation.

[KpbS]

I would make a call or send an email tomorrow to let them know you are having real problems and want to schedule a meeting to discuss.

[carolinacool]

Wow. That's pretty awful. My second-grader is also in a school-run aftercare. Someone upthread mentioned that if he has a special education plan, they may not be able to remove him. I definitely don't get that is the case at ours. No one is guaranteed a spot. There are limited spots, so you have to apply and there is a wait list. And it's stated on documents everywhere that students will be removed from the program for poor behavior. Last year during the first part of first grade, DS was hanging with another kid and they kept getting in trouble. They were both suspended a couple of times and the director told us didn't want to remove anyone, but clearly we were heading down that path. We went back after Christmas break and the other boy was no longer part of the program. I don't know if he left on his own or was asked to leave. But either way, the stuff that he and DS did didn't come close to what you're describing. I really can't see our program tolerating this behavior.

There was a boy at DS' day care who behaved very similarly to what you describe. He was eventually removed at the beginning of the preK year after he kept making threats about killing other kids' parents. He would also beat kids up. The girls in the class were absolutely terrified of him.

[sariana]

I have a child with special needs (well, a teenager now). I wasn't aware that IEP issues and its legal protections extended to after-care programs. I wonder if that varies by state. Interesting.

I had middle school students who threw chairs. It is not all that unusual though very much inappropriate. It definitely is difficult to find the right balance between the needs of the one and the needs of the many.

I also know a family of awesome parents with two neurotypical, role-model children and one autistic child who is very challenging. The mother once wrote a heartbreaking letter to the small local paper about feeling judged when out in public with her middle child (the difficult one).

OP, I hope the program finds a solution that works for everyone. It sounds as though it is not the best placement for the other child, but I don't know what their options are.

[MSWR0319]

I have a child with special needs (well, a teenager now). I wasn't aware that IEP issues and its legal protections extended to after-care programs. I wonder if that varies by state. Interesting.

I had middle school students who threw chairs. It is not all that unusual though very much inappropriate. It definitely is difficult to find the right balance between the needs of the one and the needs of the many.

I also know a family of awesome parents with two neurotypical, role-model children and one autistic child who is very challenging. The mother once wrote a heartbreaking letter to the small local paper about feeling judged when out in public with her middle child (the difficult one).

OP, I hope the program finds a solution that works for everyone. It sounds as though it is not the best placement for the other child, but I don't know what their options are.

We have a 504, but I believe it has similar rules when it comes to where it's protections are. With the 504 any event that takes place through the school district, whether it be during school hours or after school hours, is legally bound to your 504/IEP plan.

[o_mom]

And I would talk to them this week but it is already so hectic..tomorrow evening is DS’s 2nd grade program and we will be rushing from work to get home early to have dinner before coming back to the program. Friday the kids have practices/activities so similar situation.


If you don't make it a priority, neither will the aftercare.

It is a pain to change plans, or be rushed, but there are solutions - have DH take the kids and you meet with aftercare, plan to eat out instead of going home and coming back, etc. If you wait almost a week to talk to them, they will assume it is not a big deal and that you aren't that concerned.

[LBW]

If Aftercare is run by the school district, I'd call/email someone at the district today. Just shoot off a quick email saying you are concerned about recent incidents in AC and want to meet next week. That alone might bring some attention to the issue and may get the AC some more support. Sounds like they need it.

I also want to add that one of my boys has high-functioning autism (Asperger's) and has been having meltdowns in school since first grade. He'll yell, throw papers, and he used to knock over his desk. He tries to run out of the school. It's awful. Behind the scenes, he has me and a whole team of doctors and therapists helping him. There isn't any history of abuse, and when he's not in meltdown mode, he's a wonderful, brilliant, and funny kid. He has an IEP but he also gets punished like any other student. He'd definitely be suspended for the behavior you described above, and they'd probably tell me he wouldn't be allowed back to aftercare if the behavior continued.

An IEP doesn't mean that a school can do nothing. At the very least, they should have an Aide/behaviorist shadowing him in the AC program, or they should set him up in a small group/small room so that they can support him better and help to manage his behavior.

[Kindra178]

In our experience, after care doesn't have the ratios and resources to manage a kid with major behavior differences. There's no way they can put a full time aide on him - who would pay for it? I think it's time to look at alternate child care. While I want my kids to experience differences, feeling uncomfortable and pushing through those feelings, I remain concerned that the situation you describe is a lot for every day after school.

[azzeps]

Find somewhere else. They don't have the resources to manage that kid's behavior.

[StantonHyde]

For as much as I argued for inclusion etc upthread, I will say that with your update, it is time to pull your kids out. Or at least meet with the principal and the lead AC teacher to ask how they are going to keep your children safe. Review the documented incidents and describe how they impacted your children. You can ask that your children be in a space separate from the other child, etc. Now it is very possible that the school folks will say--we can't do that. And they may point to the fact that your children have not been hit or hurt by this child. But verbal threats like that are not ok. I feel for the AC people. I would try talking once and see what happens. If nothing changes, then I would pull my kids. And absolutely make this a priority--you can't wait till next week.

[hillview]

If you don't make it a priority, neither will the aftercare.

It is a pain to change plans, or be rushed, but there are solutions - have DH take the kids and you meet with aftercare, plan to eat out instead of going home and coming back, etc. If you wait almost a week to talk to them, they will assume it is not a big deal and that you aren't that concerned.
:yeahthat:

[♥ms.pacman♥]

thanks all. good points about addressing this issue sooner than later. i will draft email to the head teacher at their school and then see if one of us (i or DH) can talk with him at some point. i usually see the guy at pickup but that is very difficult time to get any disucssion as my kids come right out and parents are coming in and out of the school.

and yes seems like ideally this boy would have his own aide or some other special accommodation but it sounds like it's a matter of school district not having enough resources (read; funding) to do so. i do not blame the teachers and definitely feel for them as i imagine they are beyond overwhelmed with trying to manage this kid's behavior.


For as much as I argued for inclusion etc upthread, I will say that with your update, it is time to pull your kids out. Or at least meet with the principal and the lead AC teacher to ask how they are going to keep your children safe. Review the documented incidents and describe how they impacted your children. You can ask that your children be in a space separate from the other child, etc. Now it is very possible that the school folks will say--we can't do that. And they may point to the fact that your children have not been hit or hurt by this child. But verbal threats like that are not ok. I feel for the AC people. I would try talking once and see what happens. If nothing changes, then I would pull my kids. And absolutely make this a priority--you can't wait till next week.

but they have though - as i mentioned in OP, few months back this kid tripped my DS , causing him to fall & rip a hole in his pants (my DS was mainly upset by the ripped pants, lol, but still). And last week he rammed into DD and her friend for no apparent reason, knocking them both down to the floor pretty hard. DS saw it happen and shouted at him and said he didn't seem to care at all. this latest incident yesterday, they were not hurt directly by him but DD did get hurt in the process of running off after he had an outburst in the class. So while no black eyes or biting or anything like that, i still have concerns especially given the pattern of this kid's behavior and DD"s smaller size and her selective mutism (i'm worried she may that in stressful situations, she may not be able to communicate when she needs help) .

[doberbrat]

So while no black eyes or biting or anything like that, i still have concerns especially given the pattern of this kid's behavior and DD"s smaller size and her selective mutism (i'm worried she may that in stressful situations, she may not be able to communicate when she needs help) .

I would cc the principal on any communications as its run by the school. Also, does your dd have an IEP/504 plan? If so, I'd be insisting on a meeting to update that plan to make provisions for her to be able to indicate in some way when she feels unsafe or for them to recognize when she feels unsafe. or that she have a 'safe place' identified for her to go to where others (ie scary kid) cant go.

[boogiemom]

How scary that must have been for your kids! I’m so sorry.

When emailing, include information related to your daughter falling and hitting her head and her comment about being unable to stop and tell an adult due to him running after them. Also the bit about them being forced to stand outside without proper attire.


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[Snow mom]

I'd make contact with the AC sooner rather than later but I'd also start the process of moving them (call around to find out who has space, logistics, etc.) I wouldn't have pulled them over your first post, although what you describe is certainly sub-ideal. What worries me about what happened yesterday is how long the incident seems to have lasted and the appearance that no one was properly watching your children during that time. Maybe knowing the setup it isn't as bad as it appears, but the children ran outside and then were out there without proper clothing or presumably safe supervision for an extended period of time? No one was out there saying I see you are cold, let's find a way to get you your jacket? A quick outburst of running and pushing, flipping a table, etc. I can see being something that would be hard to prevent but hopefully quickly dealt with. What you are saying is that this wasn't dealt with at all quickly and they are unable to supervise your children while also dealing with this other child. School AC has always struck me as a bit lord of the flies like but yikes, I'd be out of there.