"Scouts: BSA" ??

[NCGrandma]

Lots of news coverage today about the Boy Scouts' plan to include girls, starting with Cubs.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/02/us/boy-scouts-name-trnd/index.html

One story that I can’t find now implied that there would be separate 'tracks' or troops or something for boys and girls, but both would be eligible to work for Eagle Scout rank.

Any thoughts, especially from the many avid Girl Scout folks here? (I’m just curious—my DGDs are active in 4-H, so this doesn’t directly affect them.)


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[Dayzy]

I'm a Cub Scout leader and a Girl Scout mom.
First, the part about including girls happened months ago. Today's news of changing the name is just bringing it all up again.
Next, for Cubs it will either be girls and boys in the same Pack with girl dens and boy dens, or separate girl and boy Packs, or no girls at all - all of which is up to the leadership and chartered organization. For the "scouts" level, boys and girls will be in separate troops. They will have the same rank requirements and opportunities. Lastly, girls have always been welcome in the BSA by joining Venture Crews when they reach 14.

That being said, my daughter likes both Cubs and GS. They are different programs and she wants to do both. Her GS troop does a lot of arts and crafts, they have tea parties and bingo nights, and she has fun there and makes new friends. In Cubs we go camping about 3-4 times a year. We hike and go fishing, rock wall climbing, and shoot off rockets. I don't see it as a competition, but for girls who want to do something more than GSUSA is offering, then there's an option.

[TwinFoxes]

I really hate this notion that Girl Scouts make lanyards while Boy Scouts camp. My DDs have camped since they were Daisys. We do pinewood derby, our last outing was hiking around wetlands, one of my DDs led a geocaching meeting. Every comments section on articles about BSA accepting girls has something about "finally girls can do the fun stuff". While their troop does some crafty stuff, it's not like that's all they do. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. But, like I said a few months ago, my DDs are proud GIRL scouts.

[AngB]

I have 3 boys so this doesn't really affect me a ton but I love this change. I was in a bad girl scout troop as a kid and all we did was boring arts and crafts type crap and after a couple years I dropped out. I would have loved to be in a better troop and/or have the option to do more active things. (My focus ended up going to sports which was fine.)

[Reyadawnbringer]

I have a son in cub scouts, but I'm also a cub scout leader. Here is my take on it.

At first, I was very apprehensive. I want a place where my son can be a boy and not worry about girls. I also felt like Girl Scouts should be good enough to handle the girls, so why change things?

But then I started looking at the research that BSA used to make this decision and it was very compelling. The research echoed what I was personally seeing in my own pack. Families are facing an increasing strain on their time. With two parent working households becoming the norm, it is hard to pitch a program to a parent that will often times require them to volunteer in some way but not include the whole family. Sign ups every year for my pack exceed expectations, but with our pack serving a high percentage of economically disadvantaged families, we end up seeing a lot of attrition.

This is not for lack of Pack leadership or lack of events or exciting things for the kids to participate in. It's literally a logistics issue. Currently, Cub Scouts is a family affair. It always has been. So girls have already been participating, they just haven't been able to receive recognition for their participation. What message is that sending ALL the kids? "You're good enough to participate, but not to be recognized because you aren't a boy? Don't like it? Go to Girl Scouts."

Now with BSA moving toward a family scouting environment, families will have an option that can involve BOTH of their kids. A one stop shop so to speak.

So back to my own feelings. I was on the fence about it all. I decided to ask some of the parents of my son's friends and even asked my son how he felt about maybe having girls in the pack with us. The responses I got were overwhelmingly positive. Though I had reservations, my son was eager to sign his girl friends up so they could adventure together. I had several of the parents of those girl friends asking when they could sign their daughters up. Obviously, I had a hang up over something that our own boys were not concerned about.

Now, I know several die hard Girl Scout families, and even families who tried GS and it didn't work out for them. Here are my observations on that. Many of my closest friends have had a hard time getting into an existing girl scout troop. If you can't get into one, then you have to try and make your own troop and I had friends who did that as well. From my own limited understanding of the structure of Girl Scouts it has a community which covers a large region (for example the San Jacinto Council which seems to cover an area so vast that it covers troops in my neighborhood but also troops from my cousins area over 2 hours away). Under the community are the individual troops which seem to typically include girls in the same age or grade. I see troops that work extremely well. They do amazing fun things that challenge them as much as cub scouts if not more. But, I have also seen troops that get stuck in arts and crafts and cookie selling modes. I also saw a troop completely disintegrate in one year because the leaders got overwhelmed and there were no other parents willing or able to step up.

A cub scout pack or troop is organized differently. The pack is governed by a charter organization. This charter organization is the group that ultimately is responsible for the pack or troop. The pack and Troop fall under a district and each district falls under a council. In our case, our pack serves two elementary schools. Our charter organization is the school PTO, though a charter can be held by a company, an HOA, a church, etc. A bunch of packs and troops in this immediate area fall under a district. That district has its own leadership which helps oversee all the packs and troops. Then the greater conglomerate of districts will fall under a council (in our case the Sam Houston Area Council) which covers the greater Sam Houston Area. The council has its own leadership which takes direction directly from BSA and helps govern the districts and the packs.

My point in talking so much about how each group is structured is because for our particular pack, we have boys from grades 1-5 from two different elementary schools. Each grade level has their own den (each den being the equivalent size of an average girl scout troop). This means that for our pack, we have many trained leaders who not only help run the dens, but we have committee leaders who run the pack, and the support of the charter organization, plus the district and council. Our pack has been in existence for 37 years, even though leaders will move on with their own kids. There is a level of support and continuity that I haven't seen my own friends have through girl scouts.

I know that under our current pack structure, if a leader quits or is unable to cover a meeting we have many other trained leaders who can fill in or take over to keep things moving. In fact, that's kinda my job as a pack Cubmaster.

The friends of mine who have boys in cub scouts and girls in girl scouts have told me that they don't see a conflict between the two programs because they offer different things.

The way BSA intends to implement the addition of girls to the program still maintains a single gender structure by allowing girls to be in the same pack as boys, but in their own dens. I have my own opinions about that, but they are minor and not worth mentioning. My point is, everyone can benefit from a youth development program like scouting. BSA saw a need and decided to give people another option. After very careful consideration, I don't see a problem with this.

Sorry for the long rambling post, it's late and I'm typing on my phone on my way to bed, lol.

DS1 - 9!
DS2- Expected 07/18

[Globetrotter]

I agree, Twinfoxes! Our girl scout troop did a wide variety of things, including camping, sporty/adventure activities, STEM events, and also the stereotypically girly stuff. It's up to the girls to decide what interests them, so it will vary. I see a huge advantage to having a separate organization for girls (or people who identify as such) and a focus on girl power. Also, the GS culture is very inclusive of LGBT individuals/religious groups, etc.., something we value.

PP made some good points. GS troops are VERY dependent on the leader, and it might be hard to find an open troop in your area. In our case, we went to the meeting hoping to join one but had to start it ourselves :) Sure, we could have worked harder to find a troop, but it worked out well for us, overall, and dd took full advantage of the opportunities, including mentoring younger girls and the Bronze, Silver, and Gold Awards. Her silver award experience led to her first job in high school, and ultimately inspired her college major.

Many troops dissolve due to burned out leaders, so I can appreciate the benefits of a large network. Sure, there is the council, but ultimately we are responsible for our own troop. Some leaders are very active, and others are laid back, and the tone depends a lot on the leadership and the girls involved. If the girls just want to do arts and crafts, and the leaders don't encourage them to do other things, you could get stuck in that rut. We had a very different experience, though, as the girls had varied interests and we introduced them to a variety of activities.

DS tried out cub scouts one year and didn't like it, so he quit. I remember being bothered by a (gun) shooting range at one of their events. I don't remember the details, but I wasn't comfortable with ds doing it.
Some of his friends have taken full advantage of BSA and had a great experience. Like most things, you get out of it what you put into it.

Personally, I see no reason for my dd to have joined BSA, but if a girl doesn't fit in their local GS, I suppose it's good to have options.

[anonomom]

I think it's fine that BSA is allowing girls (though I think it's silly that they segregate them). For families who aren't excluded by BSA's discriminatory policies, I think it can be a fun, positive option and I'm pretty much in favor of kids having plenty of options.

However, I think the Girl Scouts is an amazing organization. While the troop leader is critically important, I have found that our local council tries really hard to make it easy for troops to do an incredible variety of activities. If we wanted to, our troop could spend pretty much every weekend doing a different activity; from camping to hiking to stem activities to exploring museums to rock climbing. There seems to be a patch or badge for pretty much anything you could think of to do, and girls may even create their own badge if they have something they don't see addressed. As a troop co-leader, I'll admit that sometimes we don't take full advantage of everything we have available, but the resources are definitely there for the taking.

[AnnieW625]

Both my DH and I are members of single sex volunteer organizations (my DH Is in the Knights of Columbus, and I am in the Junior League) so I definitely see the benefit to this type of organization.

I find Girl Scouts frustrating because of the lack of location of troops in my area and if your school doesn’t have one you have to start it yourself and it just seems so unfriendly and hard to start. If I want a troop for my daughters I have to start one. I did get an email recently from our local council wanting to know of my child’s interest as she was previously in a Daisy troop at her school but it hasn’t been active and I said I would like to have her placed in a troop but I haven’t heard back yet.

I would like my daughters to be part of some sort of volunteer organization though so maybe I will look at BSA, but to be honest I really would like for them do Girl Scouts.

I agree that I think the perceived gender roles of Girl Scouts is very out of date.

I also want to say that I had a positive experience with BSA when my brother was a member and it is a family organization.


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[California]

Makes complete sense to me to include the whole family, as so many of the cub activities are sibling-friendly. When DS was in cub scouts my DDs were welcome at campouts, special events, and special merit badge days. (And in our troop, at least, the leaders would often get extra patches to give the girls.) We all enjoyed that aspect of the organization. My experience is limited to my DS' troop, and in that one troop I did notice a culture of sexism among some of the boys. We had women leaders and that didn't matter- some of the boys seemed to assume that girls were weaklings and Girl Scouts was all about crafts and cookies. If more boys learn that girls are quite capable at all outdoor sports, too, it could help our overall culture.

GS has been a great experience for our girls. Annie's absolutely right that it's dependent on having strong volunteer leadership. DD2's experience has been quite different than DD1. And due to a lack of volunteers, there is not enough space for all the girls who would like to be Girl Scouts at our local elementary school. The Boy Scouts, on the other hand, have volunteers who stay with their packs even after their kids are grown up, and are able to welcome all boys who are interested.

[nfceagles]

I don’t have a problem with single gender organizations existing but I also don’t have a problem with the Boy Scouts adapting to better meet the needs of today’s families.

My DS’s experience with cub scouts and my DDs experience with GS’s has been very consistent with the stereotypes. Camping and outdoor skills versus arts and crafts and tea parties. Regardless my DD has loved GS so we stay. They added a pinewood derby a few years ago and it is a joke compared to our Cub Scout derby. No weight limits, has to be made from recycled material, and the awards are all for fluffy stuff. No learning the physics of weight distribution and minimizing friction. I don’t complain outside of this conversation because I don’t believe in complaining about what I’m not willing to do myself and I’m already too consumed by the volunteer needs of another youth organization who volunteer for GS.

I received an email yesterday from the head of our state’s GS. It really didn’t sit well with me. It was pretty scathing about the “Scouts” and their attempts to gain ground in the GS’s current realm. I think the GSs are in a weird situation. Used to siding with women on feminist issues they’re now trying to defend themselves against an organization looking to be more inclusive of girls and teach girls great things.


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[Percycat]

Our family is involved in Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. My husband and I are volunteers for both organizations. He is our family's primary BSA volunteer and I am the primary GS volunteer. My son is 15 and has been in scouts since 1st grade. DH has been a den leader, assistant scout master, and is preparing to take a group of boys to Philmont. I have been a GS troop leader for 8 years, a GS robotics coach for 7 years, and have volunteer or led several GS events for our service unit and council.

Personally, I am annoyed by all of the heated discussion about changes BSA is making to its program and how it will effect or reflect on GSUSA. For the past several years, BSA has been evolving in to a more inclusive organization. The recent changes to allow girls to participate at a younger level and name change seem to be part of a natural progression. As a mom of a daughter and woman, I think it is fantastic that girls have more opportunities. As a mom of a son, I am a little concerned about how the changes will impact the experience for boys.

In my opinion, none of the changes BSA is making to its program or identity directly impact GSUSA or is role in developing young women to be leaders. Unlike the cub scout, boy scout, or venturing program, the GSUSA program was developed specifically for girls. I have been with some of my girls --- who are now in 7th grade -- since kindergarten. I have loved watching them grow in to confident capable leaders. Through our experience with Girl Scouts, my daughter camps several times a year -- including a multi-day backpack/canoe trip through the boundary waters, leads programs and camps for younger girls, competes in FIRST Robotics and SeaPerch Robotics, is comfortable making presentations to rooms full of adults or peers, and is committed to public service. She recently completed a GS survey and said she love GS because she gets to do things she wouldn't be able to in any other program and because she gets to hang out with her friends. I love that my daughter is gaining such important life skills and experience when she thinks she is just having fun. Sometimes I have to remind myself that she is only 13.....

A agree with some of the criticism I have heard about GS. The success of the GS experience depends on the involvement of volunteers. Because the program is primarily implemented in troops, unless the troops network and share resources, troop leaders have a lot they have to learn and be prepared to lead to provide progressive opportunities and experiences. It would be nice to have the depth of leadership support that is provided by the multi-age BS experience. It would also be nice to have nationally supported GS high adventure programs.

[Pear]

I don’t love the change because it is an attempt to suck more families into a discriminatory organization. Our family is not welcome in Scouts BSA any more than we and our daughter were welcomed before.

I find it odd that so many parents want their children to participate in this organization.

[bisous]

I don’t have a problem with single gender organizations existing but I also don’t have a problem with the Boy Scouts adapting to better meet the needs of today’s families.

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This is how I feel. I think the program will still be good for my boys and honestly in lots of ways girls were already participating. Last summer I was in charge of the siblings den at Cub Camp and it was mostly all girls doing all of the boy scout activities and they had a great time. I think this might just be a really natural transition.

[sariana]

I don’t love the change because it is an attempt to suck more families into a discriminatory organization. Our family is not welcome in Scouts BSA any more than we and our daughter were welcomed before.

I find it odd that so many parents want their children to participate in this organization.
I agree. If the BSA was having membership issues, they should have considered dropping their religious requirement. They have gradually been dropping their other restrictions.

We do Boy Scouts because my anti-social son needs something outside of school. But I don't think he's going to continue after we move because he just doesn't like it. I did struggle with the choice, though, and sought out dens and troops that seemed more welcoming.

[trcy]

I agree. If the BSA was having membership issues, they should have considered dropping their religious requirement. They have gradually been dropping their other restrictions.

We do Boy Scouts because my anti-social son needs something outside of school. But I don't think he's going to continue after we move because he just doesn't like it. I did struggle with the choice, though, and sought out dens and troops that seemed more welcoming.

I am completely ignorant when it comes to anything Boy Scouts. DD is in Girl Scouts and DS is too young for any of it. What is the religion requirement?


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[bisous]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to anything Boy Scouts. DD is in Girl Scouts and DS is too young for any of it. What is the religion requirement?


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I'm not sure what is being referred to here. My agnostic neighbor goes with my DS2 to my Mormon troop, lol. I just helped him figure out how he was going to get his "Duty to God" portion of his Arrow of Light and we came up with some ideas that didn't require any kind of "faith" in the traditional sense. There was an atheist troop that was at camp with DS1 that ended every prayer with "Ramen" really loud. (That I thought was actually pretty rude--I'm cool if you don't want to pray at all but don't make fun of other people's faith! Otherwise I thought the idea was absolutely fine to have an atheist troop.)

[Pear]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to anything Boy Scouts. DD is in Girl Scouts and DS is too young for any of it. What is the religion requirement?


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The Boy Scouts state that you can not be a good citizen if you don’t believe in god.

[sariana]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to anything Boy Scouts. DD is in Girl Scouts and DS is too young for any of it. What is the religion requirement?


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Just that there is one. "Reverent" is part of the Boy Scout Oath (I think it's the oath, maybe it's the Law), and there are religious requirements for rank advancements. There also is a question about religion for the Eagle Board of Review. Some sort of religious observance and participation is required.

I also wanted to add to my previous post that I ultimately decided I could make more of a difference from within rather than boycotting the organization entirely. By being a member, I was able to make my voice heard when they sent out the survey about whether BSA should allow boys who were gay to be members, for example. If I had simply turned my back on the organization, I would not have been able to vote in that poll and encourage them to change their policy. (Same with the religion requirement.)

[sariana]

I'm not sure what is being referred to here. My agnostic neighbor goes with my DS2 to my Mormon troop, lol. I just helped him figure out how he was going to get his "Duty to God" portion of his Arrow of Light and we came up with some ideas that didn't require any kind of "faith" in the traditional sense. There was an atheist troop that was at camp with DS1 that ended every prayer with "Ramen" really loud. (That I thought was actually pretty rude--I'm cool if you don't want to pray at all but don't make fun of other people's faith! Otherwise I thought the idea was absolutely fine to have an atheist troop.)

You can't make Eagle if you don't profess a belief in G-d, though.

[o_mom]

Just that there is one. "Reverent" is part of the Boy Scout Oath (I think it's the oath, maybe it's the Law), and there are religious requirements for rank advancements. There also is a question about religion for the Eagle Board of Review. Some sort of religious observance and participation is required.



Acknowledgement of a higher power (of any sort), being respectful of all religions, and being able to articulate how you do your duty to God is all that is required at any rank. There is no requirement of any specific religion and you do not have to be observant or actively participate in organized religion.

I know that even this is too much for some people, but it is about as minimal as it gets.

[sariana]

Acknowledgement of a higher power (of any sort), being respectful of all religions, and being able to articulate how you do your duty to God is all that is required at any rank. There is no requirement of any specific religion and you do not have to be observant or actively participate in organized religion.

I know that even this is too much for some people, but it is about as minimal as it gets.

It is more than the Girl Scouts require, which is nothing. There are religious pins that can be earned, but atheists are welcome as well. Not so in Boy Scouts. They specifically exclude atheists, but I'm hoping that will change in time. Recognizing one's religious service is fine; requiring boys to believe in G-d is very different.

[bisous]

You can't make Eagle if you don't profess a belief in G-d, though.

Hmm. I'll have to look into that. My little neighbor is not atheistic. He just doesn't know much about God. We talked about how he finds nature to be sacred and kindness to be help him feel peace. That was enough for Cub Scouts anyway!

[bisous]

Acknowledgement of a higher power (of any sort), being respectful of all religions, and being able to articulate how you do your duty to God is all that is required at any rank. There is no requirement of any specific religion and you do not have to be observant or actively participate in organized religion.

I know that even this is too much for some people, but it is about as minimal as it gets.

Ahhh. Little neighbor should be ok then. He's good with all that. He's seriously the nicest, best behaved, best mannered kid in the troop. Take that fellow mormons, lol!

[trcy]

It is more than the Girl Scouts require, which is nothing. There are religious pins that can be earned, but atheists are welcome as well. Not so in Boy Scouts. They specifically exclude atheists, but I'm hoping that will change in time. Recognizing one's religious service is fine; requiring boys to believe in G-d is very different.

Eeek! I had assumed DS would join when he is older, but now I don’t know. I would best describe us as agnostic.


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[Globetrotter]

Any sort of religious requirement would not work for us and certainly not for ds , who has strong opinions on those sorts of requirements.

The Girl Scout oath/pledge? does mention serving God and my country, but you can change it or omit it. No one is going to say anything or enforce anything, unless your local troop is very religious. Similarly, I am guessing that our local Boy Scout troops might be more inclusive given our local demographics. But any sort of religious requirement would not fly with us, Unless it was learning about different religions.
ETA: ds Would not consider applying to Catholic schools, though we had offered it as an option And our local school is very inclusive because we live in a very diverse area. He feels strongly about having a secular education. The only thing he might be interested in as learning about religion from a historical or cultural perspective.

[o_mom]

It is more than the Girl Scouts require, which is nothing. There are religious pins that can be earned, but atheists are welcome as well. Not so in Boy Scouts. They specifically exclude atheists, but I'm hoping that will change in time. Recognizing one's religious service is fine; requiring boys to believe in G-d is very different.

Yes. I was responding to your description that BSA requires observance and participation, which makes it sound like you must be an active member of an organized religion.

I do understand that any religious requirement is too much for some people.

[bisous]

Yes. I was responding to your description that BSA requires observance and participation, which makes it sound like you must be an active member of an organized religion.

I do understand that any religious requirement is too much for some people.

I understand it too. Every family has to choose for themselves what organizations advocate for the things that are important to them. It is really, really nice to have a place to go where it is okay to believe in God and to talk about Him. I'm glad that the BSA (or whatever it is called now, lol) is tolerant of other religions and makes a point that no regular church (temple/mosque) attendance is required. It is my favorite that I can pray at meetings. I completely agree that religion has no place in public school but sometimes it is nice to gather with others who believe in God but who might not belong to our specific religion, if that makes sense. There isn't anywhere else in my life where that kind of associating is possible.

[NCGrandma]

Speaking of discrimination, what is the current BS official policy and actual practice about whether gay scouts are welcome? What about kids who don’t identify as gay but whose parents are a same-sex couple? Years ago, a colleague of mine decided to remain in a leadership position in Scouting (long after his son aged out) so he could advocate for more welcoming policies and practices. But I have no idea what’s what now.


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[Mermanaid]

You can't make Eagle if you don't profess a belief in G-d, though.

I’m looking through the current advancement requirements and cannot find this. Can you tell me where it’s at?

[anonomom]

I've looked into this because several of my friends have encouraged me to sign DS up for Boy Scouts, claiming that the religious requirement isn't really a big deal. It is my understanding that when parents sign their kid up, they agree to all aspects of the BSA, including the requirement that the kid be "reverent." They do not require belief in a specific God, but they do explicitly require some profession of faith. The guide says something to the effect that nobody can be the "best kind of citizen" without recognizing the authority of God.

An explanation can be found here:
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/

Apparently, troops that are uncomfortable with this discrimination will welcome atheist kids and just urge them to claim there is something -- anything -- that they could claim to believe in as a "higher power," but even they acknowledge that a scout who is openly atheist cannot technically move up through the scouting ranks.

I appreciate the well-meaningness of these leaders but I think their "fix" is badly misguided. Imagine encouraging kids to hide that they did believe in a god, in order to be able to participate in a well-known and culturally significant organization? Or kids being told (directly or indirectly) that their beliefs make them unfit for that organization, but that if they would just express a different belief -- of any sort at all, sincerely held or not -- then they would be accepted? The idea is nauseating.

[Pear]

And the Mormon troops are out. Looks like the attempt to shore up the numbers back-fired spectacularly.

[o_mom]

And the Mormon troops are out. Looks like the attempt to shore up the numbers back-fired spectacularly.

Mormon units were barely in to begin with. The only reason the numbers were so high was that boys were automatically registered.

[sariana]

And the Mormon troops are out. Looks like the attempt to shore up the numbers back-fired spectacularly.

This action has been in the works for a while. It was not in response to the admission of girls (at least not directly).

[bisous]

Mormon units were barely in to begin with. The only reason the numbers were so high was that boys were automatically registered.

Can you explain what you mean? Mormons are pretty involved with scouting in my area...

[vonfirmath]

This action has been in the works for a while. It was not in response to the admission of girls (at least not directly).

If anything, the admission of girls was a reaction to knowing the LDS was in the process of pulling their youth out. (They had already pulled all youth over age 14 out)

[lizzywednesday]

... Her GS troop does a lot of arts and crafts, they have tea parties and bingo nights, and she has fun there and makes new friends. In Cubs we go camping about 3-4 times a year. We hike and go fishing, rock wall climbing, and shoot off rockets. I don't see it as a competition, but for girls who want to do something more than GSUSA is offering, then there's an option.

I find it disappointing that you perceive GSUSA as not offering the outdoors and STEM options that your daughter enjoys with your local Cub Scouts. There are some amazing STEM badges, and each Council should have its own outdoors badges. Last year, by a vote among Girl Scout members, new Outdoor badges were introduced, ranging from Cabin Camper for Brownie levels to Primitive Camper for Ambassadors, all exploring different aspects of camping.

It's very different in my service unit - my daughter has done hiking, swimming, and we'll be going on our first troop campout in September (I had to get training to take the kids) - and it was different in my area when I was a child. In addition to doing crafts, we also learned how to build a fire, manage a pocket knife, set up tents, prep for a camping trip, cook outdoors, find trails, survey sites that would make good campsites if we were ever in the woods, and a lot of other sporty & outdoorsy activities.

[lizzywednesday]

...

The Girl Scout oath/pledge? does mention serving God and my country, but you can change it or omit it. No one is going to say anything or enforce anything, unless your local troop is very religious.....

It's the Promise, and I really like that it can be modified to suit one's personal convictions without any harm to the individual Scouts.

I also love the "My Faith/My Promise" earned awards for girls whose faith is a large component of their identity. At the Brownie level, the requirements are quite simple, but they're also about beginning a lifetime conversation about faith and personal conviction that I think is beautiful.

[o_mom]

Can you explain what you mean? Mormons are pretty involved with scouting in my area...

They basically took pieces and parts of the program to make their own version which has differences from the overall program for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Significant portions of the requirements were rewritten with exceptions specifically designed for the LDS units, which then ended up in them changing requirements for everyone because it was not fair to hold everyone else to a different standard (I know this was the case for Cub Scouts, and even some of the updated Boy Scout requirements).

They do automatically register every boy, even if they don't want it. Units vary - some are very good, but some around here are just a few boys and only checking off a box to say they are doing it out of obligation.

[California]

My understanding from my Mormon cousins (if you are Mormon, please correct whatever is wrong on this) is that the Cub Scout program was used by the Mormons as part of their Sunday School program for training up their kids. Sundays are devoted to church and family. Girls learn homemaking skills, and boys would participate in Boy Scouts. As the boys get older they start doing more classes on being religious leaders as the heads of their future families.

This move may be freeing for Scouts:BSA. They seem to be making a leap forward towards supporting more current family configurations.

[bisous]

They basically took pieces and parts of the program to make their own version which has differences from the overall program for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Significant portions of the requirements were rewritten with exceptions specifically designed for the LDS units, which then ended up in them changing requirements for everyone because it was not fair to hold everyone else to a different standard (I know this was the case for Cub Scouts, and even some of the updated Boy Scout requirements).

They do automatically register every boy, even if they don't want it. Units vary - some are very good, but some around here are just a few boys and only checking off a box to say they are doing it out of obligation.

Ah, ok. I am not familiar with historic changes to the program. I'm sure it was mutually beneficial for both parties or they wouldn't have done it. But maybe you're happy we're leaving so there can be more autonomy in the program? That's what I'm kind of reading in your message.

Yes, every boy upon reaching age 8 will be automatically enrolled in cub scouts. There is no compulsion--it is just the activity that is provided at the church site at no cost at all to the Scout (the church pays all the fees) so boys get to meet weekly and follow the Cub Scout, and later Boy Scout curriculum. We've really enjoyed it so far (I have a Webelo and one who is very close to becoming an Eagle Scout). My DH is a Scout Master and is active in every aspect of scouting that we're aware of, certified and trained in every way. We feel like real scouts. :)

[bisous]

My understanding from my Mormon cousins (if you are Mormon, please correct whatever is wrong on this) is that the Cub Scout program was used by the Mormons as part of their Sunday School program for training up their kids. Sundays are devoted to church and family. Girls learn homemaking skills, and boys would participate in Boy Scouts. As the boys get older they start doing more classes on being religious leaders as the heads of their future families.

This move may be freeing for Scouts:BSA. They seem to be making a leap forward towards supporting more current family configurations.

Boys are enrolled in Cub Scouts as part of a weekly activity. They never meet or work on Scout stuff on Sundays or as part of Sunday school. Girls have a separate program, meeting at the same time as the Cub Scouts, always during the week, not on Sunday. I'm not sure about the "homemaking" skills part. Maybe some groups? It generally follow the interests of the girls but has a huge emphasis on spiritual growth and character development--not unlike the Cub Scouts program. They're doing a pinewood derby this month and generally do a lot of service. At the end of last year they all went to see the Nutcracker. There have been complaints over the years about the imbalance of the two programs but that has mostly been a COST issue. The girls program needs no chartering and doesn't have any fees. It follows a simple format determined by local leaders. Scouts costs the congregation tons by contrast and a lot of people saw that as unfair (with good reason). My mom is in charge of the funds for the children's programs at our local congregation and she put equal amounts of money in both programs--the girls and the boys. So the girls did TONS of stuff this year. I thought it was only fair.

I love the leadership and spiritual stuff in Boy Scouts. I have no problems with adding girls to the program at all. I've been a den leader for the sibling troop (girls) at Cub Scout Day Camp and the girls did all the activities the boys did and there was no issue AT ALL. I'd like to stay active with Scouts. DS1 will make Eagle by the time the church pulls out. DS2 will join Boy Scouts in July so I don't think he'll get nearly that far before the church pulls out. We'll have to (hopefully) find a local pack (troop?) I forget the lingo.

I think for the LDS church the move made sense. They've got a huge international membership and they want to keep things even between US and non-US congregations. They also have had a funding gap issue between the girls program and the boys program that I talked about above. The LDS church is awesome at streamlining program costs through their vast legions of volunteers. I think the new program will probably be pretty awesome. We'll just have to do Scouts as an extra program instead of part of our (free) church commitment.

[petesgirl]

They basically took pieces and parts of the program to make their own version which has differences from the overall program for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Significant portions of the requirements were rewritten with exceptions specifically designed for the LDS units, which then ended up in them changing requirements for everyone because it was not fair to hold everyone else to a different standard (I know this was the case for Cub Scouts, and even some of the updated Boy Scout requirements).

They do automatically register every boy, even if they don't want it. Units vary - some are very good, but some around here are just a few boys and only checking off a box to say they are doing it out of obligation.

Huh. I'm a Mormon and my brothers did cub and boy scouts, with both of my parents being scout leaders at different times over the years. I remember going with them to BSA stores to buy manuals and materials directly from BSA. I think they followed the regular program because those BSA manuals were constantly being referenced in my house. Of course, there is always the potential for variability based on region and leaders.

[o_mom]

Ah, ok. I am not familiar with historic changes to the program. I'm sure it was mutually beneficial for both parties or they wouldn't have done it. But maybe you're happy we're leaving so there can be more autonomy in the program? That's what I'm kind of reading in your message.

Yes, every boy upon reaching age 8 will be automatically enrolled in cub scouts. There is no compulsion--it is just the activity that is provided at the church site at no cost at all to the Scout (the church pays all the fees) so boys get to meet weekly and follow the Cub Scout, and later Boy Scout curriculum. We've really enjoyed it so far (I have a Webelo and one who is very close to becoming an Eagle Scout). My DH is a Scout Master and is active in every aspect of scouting that we're aware of, certified and trained in every way. We feel like real scouts. :)

It's not a matter of being happy, just that it seemed like the LDS church was trying to make the program fit their goals, only wanting to use parts of it, wanting exceptions, and it did cause some tension. There were many times when things were delineated as "Scouting" and "LDS Scouting" as if they were different programs (which did not help things). I think that automatic enrollment made it seem like there was more support there than there actually was. I heard at least two news stories yesterday from LDS parents who were happy it is going away because they did not want to have to keep doing it. That's not helpful to either the church or BSA.

I am sad that LDS youth will not have an option for scouting with a charter org within their faith, but they will still have the the option for the same program as all other boys. I don't think it is the major earth-shattering announcement that some people are making it to be. They have been making noises for years about leaving and not being happy with the program direction.

[o_mom]

Huh. I'm a Mormon and my brothers did cub and boy scouts, with both of my parents being scout leaders at different times over the years. I remember going with them to BSA stores to buy manuals and materials directly from BSA. I think they followed the regular program because those BSA manuals were constantly being referenced in my house. Of course, there is always the potential for variability based on region and leaders.

Yes - they use the same manuals, but they do modify the program implementation. BSA did a lot to accommodate the needs of the LDS church, but by doing so, they created almost a separate track for the LDS scouts. There a many fine scouts, all the way to Eagle from the LDS programs, but I do think, as I said above, that having a large number of boys enrolled who didn't ask for it is not wise, and as Bisous mentioned, the funding amounts to enroll all the boys in scouting might be better spent on a program tailored to that congregation than trying to shoehorn into a program that isn't exactly what they need.

[nfceagles]

I never understood why Young Men’s was synonymous with Boy Scouts. I knew lots of Mormon boys who were avid scouts but I also knew many who had no interest in scouting but they had to do it because that’s what the church’s youth program was.


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[nfceagles]

My DD is in her 5th year of GS’s. She’s spent over nights at museums and aquariums but has never camped. We do have an annual tea party and lots of arts and crafts. She does attend a day each year at a camp where they do... lots of arts and crafts.

My DS (and DH as a leader) did a lot of Cub Scouts. If my daughter were more interested in the outdoors than she is, I would gladly sign her up for the new “Scouts: BSA”, but as it is she is perfectly happy doing GSs.


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[California]

Thank you Bisous for the corrections! It's been three years since I've stayed with my family in Utah so I figured my memory would be a little off. I think that the wording nfceagles is what my cousins used- that BSA was the youth program for boys. I know the girls' program is very traditional girly stuff- they learn how to sew, and cook, and it seems to work as my cousins are way better at homemaking than I am!

[bisous]

Thank you Bisous for the corrections! It's been three years since I've stayed with my family in Utah so I figured my memory would be a little off. I think that the wording nfceagles is what my cousins used- that BSA was the youth program for boys. I know the girls' program is very traditional girly stuff- they learn how to sew, and cook, and it seems to work as my cousins are way better at homemaking than I am!

This is the extent of the curriculum for the girls' program: https://www.lds.org/manual/faith-in-god-for-girls?lang=eng

I don't think there is any mention of homemaking at all or learning to sew and cook (maybe under developing talents?). I don't think those activities would be out of place but it certainly isn't the main focus of the program. The link to the boys program is here: https://www.lds.org/manual/faith-in-god-for-boys?lang=eng

I feel like it is pretty much the same thing. The boys have these requirements but generally fulfill many of them by doing scouting (and earning scouting badges with them) here in the US. In other countries the boys and the girls follow the same program. The US girls have a LOT of freedom to follow the interests of the girls. The US boys are pretty much required to follow a pretty strict script because they are also attempting to achieve rank in Cub Scouting.

Hope this helps. :)

[american_mama]

...There have been complaints over the years about the imbalance of the two programs but that has mostly been a COST issue. The girls program needs no chartering and doesn't have any fees... Scouts costs the congregation tons by contrast and a lot of people saw that as unfair (with good reason). My mom is in charge of the funds for the children's programs at our local congregation and she put equal amounts of money in both programs--the girls and the boys. So the girls did TONS of stuff this year. I thought it was only fair.

I think the new program will probably be pretty awesome. We'll just have to do Scouts as an extra program instead of part of our (free) church commitment.

Bisous.... two questions. For the girls and boys youth LDS program, it sounds like the girls program cost much less since there was no charter or national fees, but received much less from the church budget? Or did people complain that the boy program was too expensive and every boy enrolled, interested or not? I ask because where the money is spent is an indication of what an organization values, and who has the money is one of the things that concerns me about the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.

Second question.... so, you would plan to do the new LDS youth program as well as continue in Scouts? I can understand your plan to do that - continue your commitment to both things you care about - but don't you think that's going to be really hard for a lot of Mormon families that can't manage time, effort or money-wise to do both? Who do you think will lose in that?

[american_mama]

I'm a major Girl Scout leader. I've been a leader for 6 years but have little personal knowledge of the organization from before that.

There was a widespread perception in the fall that BSA was going coed mostly to try and shore up their declining membership. I got this impression from GIrl Scouts and the general public. BSA is certainly not alone in having a declining membership - GSUSA is too, as are other youth organizations. But I didn't believe the BSA "serve the needs of families" pitch in the fall as their motivation for going coed.

I do believe the pitch I've heard on the news recently. Maybe their CEO or whoever I've seen on the news has gotten better at his spin! But I think they are coming across well. Many in Girl Scouts disgaree and think they are demeaning Girl Scouts in the process.

In Girl Scouts, the hardest thing is coming up with volunteer leaders. Maybe that's true in BSA too. Now BSA is going to have to find MORE leaders, including female leaders, to lead the girl dens. There are a lot of women involved in Boy Scouting already and I personally believe BSA has a bigger pool to draw from (more about that below), but still, this is a big new demand for volunteers in both number and type. Getting volunteers is a hard sell. So, I don't know how that will play out. And some BSA groups might still opt out of offering girl dens, so I'm not sure how much of a limiting factor that will be.

I am envious of the larger structure of Boy Scouts that brings in many more volunteers. Girl Scouts isn't like that and it can make volunteering as a troop leader very hard. I could go on forever about that, so I;ll just end with that simple summary.

I am also envious of the fact that Boy Scout attracts BOTH mothers and fathers to volunteer, but Girl Scouts usually attracts only mothers, meaning BSA has double the pool of potential volunteers. Put bluntly, I think most fathers barely volunteer for their sons and generally not for their daughters, but moms will volunteer for both. (Yes, I know some men volunteer as troop leaders or cookie parents for Girl Scouts, but it's rare). This is a huge advantage the BSA has and I think most of it is due to gender roles and biases, with some elements of organizational culture and safety rules.

I think the outdoor stuff that is often the focus of pro-BSA and anti-Girl Scout people is probably the area where single sex troops make the MOST sense. I can easily imagine boys and girls earning badges together, doing familiar physical activities like swimming. They spend most of their lives in coed schools, after all. But when it comes to learning new physical, camping and/or outdoor skills, I can imagine that many of the instructors will be men, boys will often jump in first and/or girls will defer to them and that this will become MORE true as boys and girls get older. Many girls will fall or get pushed to the back, or simply not see the activity for them as much as they would in Girl Scouts. That's what would happen for me, an adult, and for my 16 year old DD (an active Girl Scout).

DS was in Cub Scouts for 1.5 years, then essentially stopped going. He never liked it, I was more committed to Girl Scouts and DH wasn't committed to either. I do listen a lot when I hear Girl Scout parents talk about Boy Scouts, since many families overlap both.

[magnoliaparadise]

My two girls are in girl scouts, both for the first time this year, starting in September. I LOVE the girl scouts. I love the fact that the themes can be really empowering to the girls and focus on leadership skills. I love the fact that it's just girls - it's not just that there are no boys, it's that it's a space in which the girls don't even compare themselves to boys. It's truly a place where boys aren't even THOUGHT about either way. I think that's good for girls. I think it's especially good for girls as they get older and I can see that already in fourth grade.

In our state, leaders try very hard to find groups for kids. All the troops were full in our town so were put in a town 5 minutes away. It's been great. My fourth grader has done two overnight camping trips, hikes, and earned badges in other things - physical activity and first aid and others, and were educated about them in ways that were meaningful. Yes, they also did other things that some would deem less 'scout-ish' and more 'girl-ish', such as going to a jewelry store to see how jewelery was made, from the heating of the metal on. But my DD loved those and they were also educational. As a girl scout, DD even got to attend a pre-screening of the Ruth Bader Ginsberg movie coming out in the theatre. I just felt really happy that there is an organization that makes a big deal of being a female and continually shows DD all that she can do.

My kindergartener DD is also in a troop. Although they have not done any outside activities, they do things that I think are great - had a police woman come in, visited the police station, visited the fire station, made a float for a parade and marched in the parade.

And as others have said, there is a catalogue full of additional things girl scouts can do - stem work and other things.

I don't know much about boy scouts, but I'm not impressed with their political decisions and non-inclusivity. A PP asked a question about their current policies. Until Jan 2014, Boy Scouts prohibited all 'known or avowed homosexuals" from membership in the Scouting program. The ban on adults who are "open or avowed homosexuals" from leadership positions was lifted in July 2015.

And then the Boy Scouts just moved on and changed their policies without acknowledgement of all the years and law suits associated with their past practices. If an organization didn't allow blacks or Jews, for instance, one would hope that they would at least acknowledge their not-inclusive history.

And I disagree with their policy that they ban atheists.

One of the basic problems I have with adding girls into boy scouts is that it's putting girls in a group where they are seen as "joining boys" for qualities that are labeled 'boy qualities". If the group is going to be CALLED "boy scouts', the message is: The boy scouts and boy stuff is desirable and girls can join, but are along for the run. I'm NOT advocating for changing their name - I'm just saying that I don't want my girl to be in an organization in which it's called Boy Scouts, like she is a second class citizen and boy attributes are what is trying to be attained. Can you imagine inviting boys into Girl Scouts and keeping the name Girl Scouts?

The second problem is just that girls who join boy scouts will lose the opportunity of female leadership and 'girl power' education and activity.

I also just think Boy Scout attitudes, even when inclusive (now) can be out of date. I was in a boy scouts shop just yesterday and a man (and boy scout leader) helped me out (I had pinewood derby questions). To be fair, he was considerate and VERY helpful. But his overall demeanor was so freaking patronizing. He said multiple negative things about girl scouts - how 'they only do arts and crafts', an insinuation that girl scouts wasn't serious like boy scouts that angered me, and other put downs about the size and quality of Girl Scouts. I have no idea if his assessments were grounded in any experience he had of girl scouts, but I told him that his views were very different than the views that I have from my experience with the Girl Scouts.

[squimp]

They ban atheists?

[Jeanne]

I also just think Boy Scout attitudes, even when inclusive (now) can be out of date. I was in a boy scouts shop just yesterday and a man (and boy scout leader) helped me out (I had pinewood derby questions). To be fair, he was considerate and VERY helpful. But his overall demeanor was so freaking patronizing. He said multiple negative things about girl scouts - how 'they only do arts and crafts', an insinuation that girl scouts wasn't serious like boy scouts that angered me, and other put downs about the size and quality of Girl Scouts. I have no idea if his assessments were grounded in any experience he had of girl scouts, but I told him that his views were very different than the views that I have from my experience with the Girl Scouts.

Yeah that statement by him means he doesn't know too many people high up in GS leadership. My girls had the good fortune to be led by a troop leader that was an Eastern division head. She is one of the biggest GS cheerleaders and works tirelessly with the organization despite no longer have young girls herself. She is very involved with the politics of both BS and GS. Because both rely on volunteers, outside of the what they have to apply code wise, both are what the leader makes of it. My girls did everything because our leader believed in everything. There is nothing the boys did that our girls also didn't do. I camped more times that I wish to remember with a large troop. It was a lot of work to earn all the badges and our leader was very good about letting the girls choose. There are a ton of things that other GS troop leaders didn't even know were available to do or knew but didn't want to do them.

That blanket statement he made is bunk and based only on what he's probably heard locally. My nieces remained active in GS earning badges and took a trip to Europe with their troop thru 12th grade graduation. ETA a trip they paid for by busting their butt selling cookies and saved 3 years of those earnings to pay for that trip.

[magnoliaparadise]

They ban atheists?

Believing in God is a requirement, according to what I've read.

Here is a quotation from Wikepedia which is more accurate:
"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit those who are not willing to subscribe to the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle, which is usually interpreted as banning atheists."

There are countless other articles that use the word ban in their subject line or article and it doesn't seem to be publicly or even anonymously argued against by the Boy Scouts.

Here is an article from The Atlantic - it's a little old (2013) so I can't vouch if anything has changed by then (it looks like it hasn't from my very limited google), but it's an interesting read because it discusses how gay groups didn't want to support or stick by atheist groups when seeking inclusion. The article makes this funny statement that gay groups wanted inclusion, but they apparently only for godly gays.

I'm not an atheist, but there are plenty of very intelligent and well educated people who have chosen atheism and they are not immoral or unethical merely by being atheist.

[magnoliaparadise]

Yeah that statement by him means he doesn't know too many people high up in GS leadership. My girls had the good fortune to be led by a troop leader that was an Eastern division head. She is one of the biggest GS cheerleaders and works tirelessly with the organization despite no longer have young girls herself. She is very involved with the politics of both BS and GS. Because both rely on volunteers, outside of the what they have to apply code wise, both are what the leader makes of it. My girls did everything because our leader believed in everything. There is nothing the boys did that our girls also didn't do. I camped more times that I wish to remember with a large troop. It was a lot of work to earn all the badges and our leader was very good about letting the girls choose. There are a ton of things that other GS troop leaders didn't even know were available to do or knew but didn't want to do them.

That blanket statement he made is bunk and based only on what he's probably heard locally. My nieces remained active in GS earning badges and took a trip to Europe with their troop thru 12th grade graduation. ETA a trip they paid for by busting their butt selling cookies and saved 3 years of those earnings to pay for that trip.

Yes, I completely agree with this.

[bisous]

Bisous.... two questions. For the girls and boys youth LDS program, it sounds like the girls program cost much less since there was no charter or national fees, but received much less from the church budget? Or did people complain that the boy program was too expensive and every boy enrolled, interested or not? I ask because where the money is spent is an indication of what an organization values, and who has the money is one of the things that concerns me about the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.

Second question.... so, you would plan to do the new LDS youth program as well as continue in Scouts? I can understand your plan to do that - continue your commitment to both things you care about - but don't you think that's going to be really hard for a lot of Mormon families that can't manage time, effort or money-wise to do both? Who do you think will lose in that?

The only complaint about the funds is that many people felt more funds should go for the girls. Their program is good but WAY cheaper because there are no dues to pay or national organizations to support. I’ve never heard anyone have a problem with less enthusiastic scouts. It’s available to everyone and everyone is paid for. My neighbor is part of our pack and it’s nice for his family because scouting can be expensive.

I think I probably will try to keep DS2 in a troop after the pullout. He’ll havr 1.5 years in actual Boy Scouts and he loves it. He’ll be a firecracker at advancement too. :) For DS3 well have to see. He’s much younger, won’t have any LDS experience in Boy Scouts and has a completely different personality.

[nfceagles]

The only complaint about the funds is that many people felt more funds should go for the girls. Their program is good but WAY cheaper because there are no dues to pay or national organizations to support. I’ve never heard anyone have a problem with less enthusiastic scouts. It’s available to everyone and everyone is paid for. My neighbor is part of our pack and it’s nice for his family because scouting can be expensive.

I think I probably will try to keep DS2 in a troop after the pullout. He’ll havr 1.5 years in actual Boy Scouts and he loves it. He’ll be a firecracker at advancement too. :) For DS3 well have to see. He’s much younger, won’t have any LDS experience in Boy Scouts and has a completely different personality.

I know this is veering off topic, but in defense of the LDS programs for girls, the hardest and most amazing thing I’ve ever done (except for making and birthing babies) is hike the Grand Canyon for a week with everything I needed including my tent and food on my back when I was 17. That was done in my 5th year of the church’s own girl’s camp program. 5th years always went on their own trip separate from the week long camp everyone else did. Camping wasn’t a year round thing like it was for the boys but we did amazing life changing things nonetheless. There were no homemaking lessons in the Grand Canyon besides surviving the trip after a thunderstorm snapped several of your tent poles and heating MREs.


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[bisous]

I know this is veering off topic, but in defense of the LDS programs for girls, the hardest and most amazing thing I’ve ever done (except for making and birthing babies) is hike the Grand Canyon for a week with everything I needed including my tent and food on my back when I was 17. That was done in my 5th year of the church’s own girl’s camp program. 5th years always went on their own trip separate from the week long camp everyone else did. Camping wasn’t a year round thing like it was for the boys but we did amazing life changing things nonetheless. There were no homemaking lessons in the Grand Canyon besides surviving the trip after a thunderstorm snapped several of your tent poles and heating MREs.


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Totally sounds amazing. I did some really great stuff as a "Summiteer" (5th year camper, haha) too and it was fantastic. It totally depended on who was our leader but I had some amazing women mentors who were tough and strong and we did cool stuff. I loved it. I have no problems at all with the girls' program. I'm only explaining that there already exists some who have noted the disparity in funding between the programs. But I actually think the church does an amazing job of CHEAPLY creating great programs for kids so I do think they'll have a good alternative to Scouts. I like Scouts and having my kids between programs will be hard but we'll work it out.

[petesgirl]

Thank you Bisous for the corrections! It's been three years since I've stayed with my family in Utah so I figured my memory would be a little off. I think that the wording nfceagles is what my cousins used- that BSA was the youth program for boys. I know the girls' program is very traditional girly stuff- they learn how to sew, and cook, and it seems to work as my cousins are way better at homemaking than I am!

As Bisous said, my experience in the LDS young women's program was also not hyper-focused on 'homemaking'. We did some, but also did a lot of other things. A lot of that depends on who your lesders are too, and what they are comfortable with. I th innk it's funny though that people feel like learning homemaking skills and doing those things is demeaning. I mean, those things have to be done by someone. I'm a SAHM but I'm not a great homemaker and sure wish I had learned a lot of those cooking, sewing, laundry tricks when I was younger because it would make my life much easier now.

[petesgirl]

I know this is veering off topic, but in defense of the LDS programs for girls, the hardest and most amazing thing I’ve ever done (except for making and birthing babies) is hike the Grand Canyon for a week with everything I needed including my tent and food on my back when I was 17. That was done in my 5th year of the church’s own girl’s camp program. 5th years always went on their own trip separate from the week long camp everyone else did. Camping wasn’t a year round thing like it was for the boys but we did amazing life changing things nonetheless. There were no homemaking lessons in the Grand Canyon besides surviving the trip after a thunderstorm snapped several of your tent poles and heating MREs.


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My 5th year hike wasn't nearly as cool as hiking in the Grand Canyon, but I do have some pretty epic memories of Girl's Camp (most involving crazy weather....).

[StantonHyde]

As Bisous said, my experience in the LDS young women's program was also not hyper-focused on 'homemaking'. We did some, but also did a lot of other things. A lot of that depends on who your lesders are too, and what they are comfortable with. I th innk it's funny though that people feel like learning homemaking skills and doing those things is demeaning. I mean, those things have to be done by someone. I'm a SAHM but I'm not a great homemaker and sure wish I had learned a lot of those cooking, sewing, laundry tricks when I was younger because it would make my life much easier now.

The boys need to learn this too!!! I think it's ok to learn homemaking and crafts as part of a full curriculum that also includes leadership, nature, camping, adventure etc. And that would be for boys and girls--separate or together.

I hated Brownies (it was just arts and crafts and a neighborhood walk)--I wanted to be a Cub Scout because they got to do fun stuff. (homemaking skills were not fun to me then. I did do quite a bit of sewing as a teen but cleaning was NEVER my thing :ROTFLMAO:) And EVERYBODY needs to know how to cook!!!!

[magnoliaparadise]

As Bisous said, my experience in the LDS young women's program was also not hyper-focused on 'homemaking'. We did some, but also did a lot of other things. A lot of that depends on who your lesders are too, and what they are comfortable with. I th innk it's funny though that people feel like learning homemaking skills and doing those things is demeaning. I mean, those things have to be done by someone. I'm a SAHM but I'm not a great homemaker and sure wish I had learned a lot of those cooking, sewing, laundry tricks when I was younger because it would make my life much easier now.

So true. Good points. I also liked what StantonHyde said in response - everyone needs cooking!

[Dream]

We're new to girl scouts, my older DD joined about 6 months ago. Younger DD would like to join but the troop that meets in the school doesn't have space. Recently I received an email that the Cub Scout troop that meets in the school is accepting girls so we will give this a try. My older DDs troop so far has been busy with arts and crafts and hosted a movie night.

[bisous]

So true. Good points. I also liked what StantonHyde said in response - everyone needs cooking!

Just saying... in my experience no merit badge was harder to earn for my almost Eagle Scout than the cooking merit badge. It is RIGOROUS and it took tons of time. (I think that's a really good thing!)

[vonfirmath]

As Bisous said, my experience in the LDS young women's program was also not hyper-focused on 'homemaking'. We did some, but also did a lot of other things. A lot of that depends on who your lesders are too, and what they are comfortable with. I th innk it's funny though that people feel like learning homemaking skills and doing those things is demeaning. I mean, those things have to be done by someone. I'm a SAHM but I'm not a great homemaker and sure wish I had learned a lot of those cooking, sewing, laundry tricks when I was younger because it would make my life much easier now.

My daughter (A 1st Grade Tenderheart in AHG) will be working on the cooking badge with me over the summer -- by her request. A couple of the other girls have already learned it and she wants to do the same. She's also enjoying learning how to sew and anxious to be able to sew her own badges on her uniform (because some of the older girls have talked about doing this!)

[nfceagles]

My daughter (A 1st Grade Tenderheart in AHG) will be working on the cooking badge with me over the summer -- by her request. A couple of the other girls have already learned it and she wants to do the same. She's also enjoying learning how to sew and anxious to be able to sew her own badges on her uniform (because some of the older girls have talked about doing this!)

What is AHG?


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[sariana]

What is AHG?


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I assume American Heritage Girls. It's a faith-based program for girls. Our Cub Scout Day Camp opened up to AHG several years ago. I don't know any more about it than that, though. Girl Scouts is not faith based, so some people choose AHG if they are seeking a stronger faith component. (Girl Scouts recognizes faiths but does not emphasize them or require any religion at all.)

[vonfirmath]

I assume American Heritage Girls. It's a faith-based program for girls. Our Cub Scout Day Camp opened up to AHG several years ago. I don't know any more about it than that, though. Girl Scouts is not faith based, so some people choose AHG if they are seeking a stronger faith component. (Girl Scouts recognizes faiths but does not emphasize them or require any religion at all.)

Yes. American Heritage Girls. Another scouting program aimed at girls. Ours meets at a local church the same night as the Trail Life scouting program for boys (Which my son will be in next year). So you can do scouting for all your kids on the same night.

[jenstring95]

I can see the desire for girls to earn the BSA awards. I have a Boy Scout and a Girl Scout. I can tell you that when DS was in Cub Scouts, DD did most of the events with him (at least the fun stuff like Pinewood Derby, rocket launch, Blue and Gold, camping, etc). Cub Scouts really emphasizes whole family participation in a way that GS does not. DS was always mad when DD would have a fun event and he wasn't invited along. (He did go on some outings, but that was more of a child care issue at the time than actually being welcomed.) I realize this may vary from GS troop to GS troop, but I don't think it does for Cub Scouts. DD doesn't attend BSA events as much, but neither do parents. I can see why a girl might want to be eligible for the same badges as a boy, especially if she has "been along for the ride" anyway. Also, I do feel like the Eagle Scout rank is more widely recognized than the top GS rank (which I admit I don't know the name of).

I do believe that units should remain all girls and all boys, as I don't think there needs to be the drama of flirting/dating/dealing with the opposite sex during junior high and high school. Also, I think co-ed camping at that age could be a logistical nightmare. DD has no desire to join BSA and is happy in GS. I don't feel like GS focuses specifically on crafts and homemaking. I think of it like I think of Lego Friends vs. regular Legos. If it gets kids involved in a safe and rewarding activity, who cares if it's packaged differently to appeal to different groups of people?

I would think if GS loses membership it would only be in the short run because girls that bolt from that program to BSA probably wouldn't have stayed in GS for the long haul anyway because it wasn't meeting their needs/interests.

[pinay]

Both of my daughters are in GS troops, and it's been a great experience so far! DD2 is in a STEM focused Daisy troop, and they are doing awesome experiments, testing hypotheses, they did a "solve the crime" activity, so many cool things! DD1 joined her troop as Brownie and their troop leader has gotten better and better at tailoring the activities to the interests of the girls. She's a Junior now, getting ready to bridge to Cadettes and she's helping plan the upcoming Encampment weekend with our service unit (which incidentally is led by an awesome dad). They just got back last month from attending the national bridging ceremony across the Golden Gate Bridge in SF and she is committed to sticking with GS for the long haul. Their troop also wrapped up their Bronze Award project, which involved funding and installing a garden and outdoor classroom at the elementary school the girls attend. I wasn't involved in GS as a child, but I really think it is a wonderful program that provides a wide range of opportunities for girls to experience.

[american_mama]

Also, I do feel like the Eagle Scout rank is more widely recognized than the top GS rank (which I admit I don't know the name of).

It is not as well known, unfortunately, so let me try to provide some info.

The highest award in Girl Scouts is the Gold Award, and a girl who earns it is a Gold Award Girl Scout. It is earned in high school, usually between 11-12th grade. It's not a rank as that term is not used in Girl Scouting and there are not prerequisites of certain badges as in BSA. It requires a proposal to solve a community need or problem, a long term solution that addresses a root cause of the problem, an external advisor outside of a troop leader or parent, and 80 hours of individual work solving it.

There are prerequisites. Before doing this project, a girl has to do some similar, smaller scale action projects which can take one of two paths. The high school path means she would plan and implement at least two small scale action projects in high school. Or in middle school, she might do a small scale action project and then a Silver Award (which requires 50 hours of individual or small group work, and a shorter timeframe of sustainability so it operates as a beginning step for the Gold). These projects build a girl's skill in identifying community needs and resources, developing a plan and partners, understanding root causes and a lasting difference, and implementing her plan.

Recent Gold Award projects I have heard of locally this year are:
* develop a volunteer team to supply and guide pouring a concrete floor at an outdoor kennel area at a rural SPCA (there was probably more to this project than I know)
* work with a state park to develop a Dark Skies Management plan including the Girl Scout herself building and installing top light covers on parking lot and path lights to prevent light pollution for astronomers
* develop an education and advocacy campaign to end rape culture and promote consent training (this involved a lot of public speaking and working with a state legislature. It was probably more specific than I know, because the girl was nominated for a national award). Many Girl Scout projects involve education, outreach or advocacy in part or in whole; projects that just involve construction or installation are not usually enough.

In 4th and 5th grade, there is also the Bronze Award which requires 20 hours of work done in a group. The Bronze is not required for the Silver or Gold. But Girl Scouts who earn all three often get special recognition from their councils.