I need a hug and some advice: my 3rd grader got an in school suspension

[wendibird22]

Y'all, I'm at a loss. I'm sad for me and I'm sad for my kid, and I'm feeling completely helpless. DD1 who is soon to be 9 and in 3rd grade just received a 1/2 day in school suspension for slapping a boy in her class in the face yesterday because he was annoying her. They have lockers in the hallway for keeping their things and were packing up for the end of the day. The boy's locker is right next to hers and he and some other boys were apparently making loud obnoxious noises that were driving my DD nuts. She asked them to stop. All the boys did expect for the boy with the locker next to hers and he continued to do it up in her face. She slapped his face. He took her baseball hat off her head and laughed, then gave it back. Both went back into the classroom and finished whatever they do for the last 15-20mins before the bus. Then the boy went and told the teacher that DD1 slapped him. The teacher called me yesterday about it. DD1 didn't deny what happened and she wrote an apology letter to the boy. The principal met with her this morning and gave her a 1/2 in school suspension. Principal called my DH about it (DH is an elementary teacher) and DH agreed with the consequence (another alternative was restorative conference). DD told principal that she was annoyed and didn't think about her actions and that it was impulsive.

While this is the first time for her to be in trouble for making physical contact with another child, this isn't the first time she's been in trouble. A few weeks ago she was written up by a substitute bus driver for screaming and being loud on the bus after repeatedly being asked to quiet down for several days. She was written up by the same driver the first week of school for calling a first grade girl "freakin' stupid" but DD swears it wasn't her. She was once sent to the principal by a substitute art teach for being defiant and disruptive. Her 2nd grade teacher was a bad fit for her and we were constantly getting notes home about her yelling out answers without being called on, interrupting other kids' answers, or not following directions. We did not get any of these types of reports from K, 1st, or this year. She's above grade level in reading and math and is easily very bored in class. This year's teacher gets that and finds ways to engage her meaningfully. She gets along well with kids and is a social butterfly and "popular." She was in class last year with this same boy who also acted out in class last year and so the 2 of them were "trouble" together in that if one was acting out that would get the other off track too. DD tends to get drawn into other kids' bad behaviors and can't separate herself.

At home she' stubborn. DD wants to always get DDs way. Ask her to do something and she will but on her terms and timeline. Get angry with her and she digs her heals in more. DH and I say that there's no way to use positive influence and reward to motivate her. You have to go to "chernobyl" level with her to get her to stop a behavior or follow through on a direction. We are always saying that DD is only happy as the center of attention, getting her own way, and that even when she knows she did wrong and is in trouble, her concern is not for the other person but for herself. Even with this situation, she wasn't sad and empathetic that she slapped someone but that she's a "bad kid." Her tears are centered around her not wanting others to think she's a "bad kid" instead of being upset that she hurt someone. But she does sob and then carries on about how she's a horrible person and we should take everything away from her because she doesn't deserve it. And so then I worry about things going too far in the other direction with self-loathing. It's like there's no middle ground with her. Either she doesn't get it and doesn't think she did anything wrong or she thinks she's the worst person in the world.

I'm just so sad about it all. I'm embarrassed that MY kid would do such a thing. I'm sad for her to be labeled the "bad kid" in school. I'm worried that as a 3rd grader she's still doing this stupid crap that gets her in trouble and wonder what's next. I'm sad that she keeps messing up and she's smart enough to know better. She's bright and happy and social and a good kid 362 days a year but the 3 days in a year she messes up, she messes up big.

I'd love any advice or simple commiseration.

[marinkitty]

I can definitely commiserate. This is a lot like my youngest DS. He hasn't been suspended, but we did have a principal visit once with another boy and his parents because they had hit each other. (that was also in 3rd grade, coincidentally). And every now and then he'll do something that shocks us (too rough in a hockey game, says something unkind) when he's typically really nice to everyone and the center of the fun. He's in 5th now and it has gotten better, so some of it i think is maturity. Some of it is that I always stress when class placement comes up that he needs a class with focused, diligent workers not easily distracted kids. He rises to the occasion in the former and sinks to the lowest common denominator in the latter. He is 100% externally motivated and not a natural pleaser (unless it's himself he's pleasing). Other than age helping things, and calm consistent application of our rules and expectations with natural consequences for failing to follow/meet them (going Chernobyl on him just escalates, and everything is already a negotiation with him to get things on his terms), I'm not sure I have much to offer by way of advice. Isn't in crazy how different kids are from each other even when growing up in the exact same circumstances? We try to validate him without necessarily agreeing with him and that seems to help too.

[anonomom]

Oh, hugs. So many hugs. I have one just like your DD.

The slapping thing, I honestly wouldn't make that big a deal of. Yes, it is obviously wrong to use your hands rather than words, but it surprises me that the boy involved didn't suffer a consequence. There's only so much any kid can be expected to endure without exploding. And a 9yo may know in her head that hitting is wrong, but that message doesn't always make it all the way to her hands.

As for the rest of it, I've got nothin' except sympathy. It drives me NUTS when my DD starts in with the "I"m sorry I'm such a disappointment to you" crap, because it is so manipulative (even if she doesn't explicitly mean it that way). There's no better way to divert attention away from specific bad acts than to pretend you're being disciplined for your whole personality. I'll admit to issuing a curt "cut that out. We're talking about one incident here."

Take comfort in the fact that she's mostly good. And that there's every chance she will outgrow the drama and self-absorption at some point.

[sariana]

You have a little spitfire. Big hugs to you, and be happy that she doesn’t let people walk over her. She’s immature now, but when she’s older you can help her channel that self-confidence.

You may want to read The Explosive Child. Some of the strategies in that book may be helpful for your family.

[lizzywednesday]

... Even with this situation, she wasn't sad and empathetic that she slapped someone but that she's a "bad kid." Her tears are centered around her not wanting others to think she's a "bad kid" instead of being upset that she hurt someone. But she does sob and then carries on about how she's a horrible person and we should take everything away from her because she doesn't deserve it. And so then I worry about things going too far in the other direction with self-loathing. It's like there's no middle ground with her. Either she doesn't get it and doesn't think she did anything wrong or she thinks she's the worst person in the world.

I'm just so sad about it all. I'm embarrassed that MY kid would do such a thing. I'm sad for her to be labeled the "bad kid" in school. I'm worried that as a 3rd grader she's still doing this stupid crap that gets her in trouble and wonder what's next. I'm sad that she keeps messing up and she's smart enough to know better. She's bright and happy and social and a good kid 362 days a year but the 3 days in a year she messes up, she messes up big.

I'd love any advice or simple commiseration.

OK, I promise I read your original post and send my hugs because it sucks to feel like you're the parent of "that kid" and I've been there.

Has your DD been tested for anything in the ADHD area? I only say this because my DD has similarly impulsive behavior and stubborn tendencies, with a dash of anxiety.

Her kindergarten teacher was a TERRIBLE fit for her, which led to temper tantrums and fits during class and a placement in a team-teaching situation for 1st grade where she thrived. Last year (2nd grade) she had a sympathetic teacher whose own children ran the gamut of "special needs" from run-of-the-mill ADHD to ASD, and a generally good experience except for one child whose attention-seeking behavior annoyed DD to the point where it became physical (kicks, punches, mysteriously torn clothing, etc.)

She had an episode this summer at her first week of camp where she ran away and hid from her group, which was a safety issue.

This year has been much better so far, unless her teacher is afraid to let us know there's a problem.

HOWEVER, she's been on medication for the ADHD for about a year and a half and the difference in her personality is ... Jekyll and Hyde (sort of.)

I know I don't know the whole situation you're facing, but I really think your DD would benefit from some kind of evaluation. Even if it's not ADHD, I don't think it would hurt to get more information about what's going on inside her head.

[HannaAddict]

Hugs to you and her. That is hard. In reading the other incidents though, as the mom of boys and a girl, I couldn’t help thinking how different I think some approaches would be if she was a boy. I honestly think someone would be suggesting talking to an OT or your pediatrician to explore if more is going on than being “bored in class.” It sounds like ADHD type behaviors, especially with the continuing issues over a couple of years, in different settings (bus and school), and a slap to the face would have parents up in arms if a boy slapped a girl because he was annoyed. I’ve seen some girls struggle and not get the coaching or medical help for issues soon enough, as girls symptoms are often viewed through a different lens. I just think it is worth considering as she’s obviously very smart and social but may have something going on she doesn’t even understand. Good luck and kids make mistakes and are still fabulous kids.


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[HannaAddict]

Oh, hugs. So many hugs. I have one just like your DD.

The slapping thing, I honestly wouldn't make that big a deal of. Yes, it is obviously wrong to use your hands rather than words, but it surprises me that the boy involved didn't suffer a consequence. There's only so much any kid can be expected to endure without exploding. And a 9yo may know in her head that hitting is wrong, but that message doesn't always make it all the way to her hands.

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This makes me shake my head as the mother of two boys and a girl. My son, the youngest, had been hit over the head with a shoe by a girl because he didn’t move fast enough out of her way and he didn’t report it, other kids did. And the parents shrugged it off as “oh well” but lose their minds over any slights or even being physically bumped in class by a boy. And if he had hit her over the head because he was “annoyed” he would be in trouble with me as well as the school. Blaming the victim, who in this case is a boy, is not okay. And slapping a kid across the face at age 9 is very different from a push or shove and so what if they were making noise - you don’t slap someone’s face. My son was also punched right in front of me by a girl at pick-up and her dad literally asked her what my son had done to make her mad. She lied because when talked to the teacher (who saw it), she had taken another child’s eraser and then said it was hers and my son and another girl both confirmed it was the other kids when asked by the teacher. Small thing, no big deal, except for the attitude that because he’s a boy he must have done something to deserve it. I’m a liberal feminist but don’t make excuses or blame the victim. And at age 8 and 9 year olds and third grade, expect a little more restraint. The incidents I’ve seen of aggressive girls who think they can hit people all happened in second grade 7 year olds.


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[anonomom]

This makes me shake my head as the mother of two boys and a girl. My son, the youngest, had been hit over the head with a shoe by a girl because he didn’t move fast enough out of her way and he didn’t report it, other kids did. And the parents shrugged it off as “oh well” but lose their minds over any slights or even being physically bumped in class by a boy. And if he had hit her over the head because he was “annoyed” he would be in trouble with me as well as the school. Blaming the victim, who in this case is a boy, is not okay. And slapping a kid across the face at age 9 is very different from a push or shove and so what if they were making noise - you don’t slap someone’s face. My son was also punched right in front of me by a girl at pick-up and her dad literally asked her what my son had done to make her mad. She lied because when talked to the teacher (who saw it), she had taken another child’s eraser and then said it was hers and my son and another girl both confirmed it was the other kids when asked by the teacher. Small thing, no big deal, except for the attitude that because he’s a boy he must have done something to deserve it. I’m a liberal feminist but don’t make excuses or blame the victim. And at age 8 and 9 year olds and third grade, expect a little more restraint. The incidents I’ve seen of aggressive girls who think they can hit people all happened in second grade 7 year olds.


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I see and understand your point. But I'm not blaming the victim; I am assigning blame to both wrongdoers. As I read the OP's post, her daughter was being teased by a classmate in the moments immediately before she slapped him (she said he was "all up in her face"). She's absolutely wrong to have done so, but he also needed to back off. I'd feel the same way if the sexes were reversed.

Now, if she'd walked up and slapped him for being irritating in her general vicinity or from some long-past, suddenly remembered problem, then my reaction would be completely different. That would be a big deal (no matter whether she was a boy or a girl). But those aren't the facts we have been presented. It sounds to me like a heat of the moment reaction, which is unacceptable but understandable for a child of either sex.

(FWIW, when I was in 5th grade there was a boy I teased mercilessly. I was a total jerk to him. One day, I was in mid-singsong when he hauled off and punched me in the face. Was he wrong? Absolutely. But so was I, and it would have been bonkers for me to claim to be the injured party in that situation.)

[HannaAddict]

Making noises that are annoying, even when done after asked to stop, or too close, don’t rise to being slapped in the face for me. And when there is a physical reaction that far outstrips what is warranted, the focus needs to be on that - not the person who was annoying. (This wasn’t a self defense scenario.) And we don’t really know if he was talked to about not doing what he was doing, that isn’t the focus of the poster’s question and not the concern of the parent of the child doing the slapping. I would not be surprised at all if he really was in her space that he was talked to, what bothers me is that is the focus of the comment, shifting blame, and the sort of dismissive ness and minimizing the girl’s behavior and I do think it is our natural default to do along gender lines.



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[anonomom]

Making noises that are annoying, even when done after asked to stop, or too close, don’t rise to being slapped in the face for me. And when there is a physical reaction that far outstrips what is warranted, the focus needs to be on that - not the person who was annoying. (This wasn’t a self defense scenario.) And we don’t really know if he was talked to about not doing what he was doing, that isn’t the focus of the poster’s question and not the concern of the parent of the child doing the slapping. I would not be surprised at all if he really was in her space that he was talked to, what bothers me is that is the focus of the comment, shifting blame, and the sort of dismissive ness and minimizing the girl’s behavior and I do think it is our natural default to do along gender lines.



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But I'm not dismissing it because she was a girl. Neither do I contend that her punishment was too severe or inappropriate. I'm just saying, as a parenting matter, that I wouldn't worry too much over an isolated incident and that in a situation where both parties were wrong, I'm surprised that only one party appears to have suffered a consequence.

This may come down to a difference in parenting styles/priorities: I fully admit that when any of my kids (two girls and a boy) come to me crying that a sibling hit them, my first response is always "and what were you doing in the five seconds immediately before that?" I do not in any way condone hitting, but I don't think that one bad behavior automatically erases someone else's bad behavior. In that kind of situation in my own home, both kids get punished.

[hillview]

I might consider getting her tested to just rule other stuff out. DS2 had some issues like this and testing helped us understand him better.

[wendibird22]

Some of it is that I always stress when class placement comes up that he needs a class with focused, diligent workers not easily distracted kids. He rises to the occasion in the former and sinks to the lowest common denominator in the latter.

That describes my DD2 exactly. And she doesn't know how to recognize the bad behavior of others and separate herself when she starts getting sucked in.

As for testing, I've asked but no one, not DH who is K-6 certified, FIL who is a retired school psych, nor her teachers or principal thinks she needs any testing. She has no trouble focusing on her work, no academic issues, no social issues, and no impulse control issues outside of these few incidents that seem to happen 1-2x a year.

She is stubborn and a spitfire and confident for days and a lover of attention. Those things serve her well 99% of the time but man are they her downfall that other 1%. She's also an eternal optimist so in trouble today is horrible but in her world tomorrow is a new day where everything gets wiped clean and she gets a do over. What she doesn't understand is that at school you don't get a clean slate and that each incident starts to accumulate in terms of a consequence. And often that "oh well, tomorrow is a new day" attitude makes people think she isn't taking the bad decision and the consequences seriously. She swears she is but she doesn't want to dwell on it because it just makes her sad.

And of course I work with college students so I see this behavior, negative peer influence, laissez-faire attitude, as things that are going to make me worry about her like crazy when she's off on her own.

[TwinFoxes]

I have a lot of thoughts...


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As for testing, I've asked but no one, not DH who is K-6 certified, FIL who is a retired school psych, nor her teachers or principal thinks she needs any testing. She has no trouble focusing on her work, no academic issues, no social issues, and no impulse control issues outside of these few incidents that seem to happen 1-2x a year.


Well, if that's really true, than I'm not sure what suggestions you're looking for?


Yes, it is obviously wrong to use your hands rather than words, but it surprises me that the boy involved didn't suffer a consequence.

He may have, right? I mean usually discipline is kept hush-hush.

I really, really don't think slapping another kid is acceptable in school. My kids will take each other to the ground at home, but they have never hit each other in school, or heaven forbid hit another kid. And they both have impulse control issues. Other kids try to get a rise out of them by doing all sorts of things some similar and some worse than what OP describes. One will explode and scream back, and the other will stand up for herself (and frankly anyone who's being picked on) and tell the teacher. But slapping another kid has never happened. (I actually think having one kid trying to get a rise out of another kid by making noises etc is a day-to-day occurrence). I don't think our school is out of the ordinary in that the consequences of using physical violence has been drilled in since day one.

I do tend to agree if a boy had slapped a girl we wouldn't be using phrases like "spitfire" and brushing it off. Imagine..."she didn't say anything and laughed. Then later she told the teacher my son slapped her." It's implying the person slapped couldn't possibly have been that bothered because they didn't say something right away.

There's a good chance that this the last incident of its kind for your DD. I would just encourage you to consider if it's really only a couple of times a year. And to really stress the consequences of laying hands on someone. The next time could be much more serious.

[HannaAddict]

But I'm not dismissing it because she was a girl. Neither do I contend that her punishment was too severe or inappropriate. I'm just saying, as a parenting matter, that I wouldn't worry too much over an isolated incident and that in a situation where both parties were wrong, I'm surprised that only one party appears to have suffered a consequence.

This may come down to a difference in parenting styles/priorities: I fully admit that when any of my kids (two girls and a boy) come to me crying that a sibling hit them, my first response is always "and what were you doing in the five seconds immediately before that?" I do not in any way condone hitting, but I don't think that one bad behavior automatically erases someone else's bad behavior. In that kind of situation in my own home, both kids get punished.

You won’t know the consequences for the other party necessarily, especially when such a large disparity with being annoying and physical aggression. The school shouldn’t be talking about the other party to other parents. And doesn’t sound isolated, that is why the OP is asking for advice. And with siblings, I totally do what you do and yes, both parties may be in the wrong but here there is no equivalency and I wouldn’t shrug it off. It sounds like escalating behavior. But totally something that can be addressed and what kids do, make mistakes.


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[magnoliaparadise]

You have a little spitfire. Big hugs to you, and be happy that she doesn’t let people walk over her. She’s immature now, but when she’s older you can help her channel that self-confidence.

You may want to read The Explosive Child. Some of the strategies in that book may be helpful for your family.

Yes, I agree with all of this.

And I also agree that it might be useful to get her tested both with a neuropsych and psych - maybe there are some regulation of mood issues that she can work on.

I think a kid should not be physical, BUT your DD's extreme reaction is probably no worse than a kid who just sucks it all in and internalizes negative self worth. Your DD sounds super smart and verbal and spirited. When she learns to control her impulses, this will all be a great asset in life!

All this stuff about gender - I have girls, so I get that I don't see the point of view of those with boys - but I DO think there is a double standard where girls who hit are more severely regarded/punished than boys who hit (who are seen as 'oh that normal boy getting out his aggression, boys will be boys).

So, if anything, I think that the fact that your kid is a girl getting into trouble for historically-seen 'boy behaviors' such as being physical works *against* her. I think teachers more often give boys a bit of a pass. I have experienced it as an observer and when my girls were the recipient.

[wendibird22]

I do know that there was no consequence for the boy. The principal called them down together and spoke to them together. After questioning them my DD stayed down in the office for her “suspension” and the boy was sent back to class. The boy told the principal he was fine, it didn’t bother him, and he just wanted her to apologize. She had written an apology note and brought it to school with her and gave it to him. But I also understand a zero tolerance policy for hitting and so I’m not bothered by the consequence.

I do agree with all the points made about gender differences. I DO think boys get punished more often for acting up AND I also think my rough and tumble girl gets singled out for her behavior more than boys sometimes because she’s not behaving how a girl should behave. That was half our battle with last year’s teacher who didn’t see my DD as being “lady like” enough. Heck she plays football and has a lot of boys as friends. Though she does have a girly side she gravitates to boys because she says she doesn’t like the girl drama.


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[HannaAddict]

Yes, I agree with all of this.

And I also agree that it might be useful to get her tested both with a neuropsych and psych - maybe there are some regulation of mood issues that she can work on.

I think a kid should not be physical, BUT your DD's extreme reaction is probably no worse than a kid who just sucks it all in and internalizes negative self worth. Your DD sounds super smart and verbal and spirited. When she learns to control her impulses, this will all be a great asset in life!

All this stuff about gender - I have girls, so I get that I don't see the point of view of those with boys - but I DO think there is a double standard where girls who hit are more severely regarded/punished than boys who hit (who are seen as 'oh that normal boy getting out his aggression, boys will be boys).

So, if anything, I think that the fact that your kid is a girl getting into trouble for historically-seen 'boy behaviors' such as being physical works *against* her. I think teachers more often give boys a bit of a pass. I have experienced it as an observer and when my girls were the recipient.

Never, ever seen that girls are treated more severely for physical aggression. Quite the opposite! I have a 9th grade boy, middle school girl, and elementary boy. And what I’ve seen is the dismissive attitude when it is a girl who assaults someone whether the victim is a girl or a boy. Boys are not given a pass. I’m taking about physical aggression as described, not playing or rough housing or mutually agreed tackling, etc. I think that boys being physical with each other in play is more tolerated or not encouraged to do something else, or girls who want to roughhouse are viewed differently by parents and teachers. ETA This seems to mirror what OP found. I hate the girls should be “lady like” b.s. too.


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[hbridge]

I might consider getting her tested to just rule other stuff out. DS2 had some issues like this and testing helped us understand him better.

I agree, even if it's just to rule stuff out. Also, your child is young, now is the time to figure things out. At least get a third party professional to look at the situation; parents and other relatives can dismiss things as "normal" simply through "wishful thinking". Even if you just gather all the data (ask school for records and behavior reports) and your own information (email threads, notes on incidences, home behavior information) and schedule a meeting with your pediatrician. Don't dismiss things, they may be warning signs, they may not. Some kids outgrow this stuff, some it's a indicator of underlying issues.

We got a lot of conflicting information and ideas about our child in early elementary, the teachers were wishy washy about issues, the pediatrician was "keeping an eye on things"; this went on until DC's coping skills started to "fail" and issues came tumbling out.

Can't hurt to get professionals involved.