Going back to school thoughts?

[mom2binsd]

This is an interesting read, from the National Post in Canada, from Sick Kids hospital in Toronto. Canada has had a pretty good/low rate of COVID outside of some very troubling outbreaks in long term care (especially in Quebec).But, for the most part they are doing things very slowly, and have some the most strict rules during shelter in place (lots of people getting 500-1500 dollar fines for being in parks etc) and anyone arriving in Canada has strict 14 day quarantine which involves a follow up by the health dept. In some cases visits form the provincial police or RCMP if they don't think you are in compliance. Fines for breaking quarantine can be up to 750,000. So Canada is not taking this lightly. My family is up there and I won't see my 84 year old father this summer (I honestly hope he is still alive by next summer which is the next time we could visit).

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/children-dont-need-masks-or-social-distancing-during-playtime-when-they-return-to-school-sickkids-experts

I truly hope our schools in IL will open back up on a regular schedule in late Aug. DD is a senior and DS is a Freshman. They both are extroverts and thrive in the school environment. I can't even imagine a world where they are wearing masks either, no kids are going to wear them properly for them to be effective, and we don't know if it's even necessary to keep the schools closed. I also don't know how some type of alternating day schedule would work, with parents of younger kids how in the world would they arrange part time childcare? And then the kids will be together outside of school on their day off, so again is it going to be effective.

It will be interesting to see how the schools in Europe have fared.

[sf333]

Do you have to sign up in order to read the article?

[mm123]

Do you have to sign up in order to read the article?

Here are the links directly from the Sick Kids website. This is making big news in Ontario right now. Our cases are down to around 200 per day, but things are still pretty shut down (opening up very slowly). Important to note that these are just recommendations (from a highly trusted source), not actual decisions. The final decisions will be made later this summer by the Ontario government.

http://www.sickkids.ca/AboutSickKids/Newsroom/Past-News/2020/covid19-recommendations-school-reopening.html

https://www.sickkids.ca/PDFs/About-SickKids/81407-COVID19-Recommendations-for-School-Reopening-SickKids.pdf

[mom2binsd]

I was able to read it without signing up , I copied from reddit.

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[gatorsmom]

The sick-kids article says that kids shouldn’t wear masks and school staff should avoid them. They think the kids will turn them into play-things which will increase their chances of infection. Also, they said children should the deprived of learning by reading adult and teacher facial expressions.

I found the article interesting but not ground-breaking.

[PZMommy]

Schools in China, S Korea, Israel, and Montreal have had to close again after reopening. There was a class in Montreal where 9 out of the 11 kids in the class got sick. If schools do reopen be prepared for them to close again if a student or staff member gets sick. I don’t see how a hybrid model helps as teachers will still be exposed to the same number of students. Many of the models are trying to make it safe for students, but do nothing to help protect teachers and staff members.

Schools here have had limited openings for staff to pack up and do end of year stuff. Even with minimal numbers of staff on campus people are testing positive and then the school gets closed for 14 days. This happened twice at the school I work at, and I know of 5 schools in my area that has had the same thing happen. I’m not sure why the 14 days, but that is the district policy.

I don’t know what the answer is, but I don’t foresee it being school like normal in August.

[Liziz]

Interesting. I agree with a lot of their recommendations. We have been super strict and serious about staying away from other people and following stay at home orders, etc. - but (even before reading this) I am in favor of school starting more or less "like normal". I just think that too many of the mitigations we might try (like staggering school days, requiring masks, requiring social distancing in schools) won't really do much to keep anyone safer. And if they're not keeping anyone safer, then what's the point of doing them? At that point the harm outweighs the risk to me.

Mostly though, I am frustrated that for us, the new school year starts in only 6 weeks (!!!!), and we still have radio silence from the school and district about what to expect.

[Kindra178]

We need novel solutions to get these kids back at school.

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.

If teachers are unable to go in (older, immuno-compromised, high risk), they should teach via screen and have a sub there for classroom management.

Schools should employ block scheduling to limit passing periods. There is a ton of research on the benefits of block schedules.

Children have been largely spared from this, let's get them back to school. In Illinois, most schools have about 8-9 weeks of summer to come up with viable solutions.

[o_mom]

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.




Our state has released guidelines and one that really is going to impact schools is that ANY fever is now 72 hours fever-free before returning (was 24-hrs), and if they suspect COVID (which includes any unexplained fever, even with no other symptoms), it is 10 calendar days unless you test negative twice 24 hrs apart (which, by the time you do that and get results, will probably be close to 10 days). They are going to need to figure out how to keep those kids learning.

[SnuggleBuggles]

We need novel solutions to get these kids back at school.

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.

If teachers are unable to go in (older, immuno-compromised, high risk), they should teach via screen and have a sub there for classroom management.

Schools should employ block scheduling to limit passing periods. There is a ton of research on the benefits of block schedules.

Children have been largely spared from this, let's get them back to school. In Illinois, most schools have about 8-9 weeks of summer to come up with viable solutions.

[emoji106][emoji106]

I read through our state’s preliminary plans broken down by what phase we are in. I’m fine with any plan that gets them back to school. My only lingering concerns are likely unique to us:
-we drive him though we’d happily put him on the bus. Due to driver shortages we have 1 bus for our huge school district to go to the multiple charter school campuses. If he took the bus he would be on the bus 2 hours to and 2 hours home- 4 hours a day! There’s no way they’ll be able to pull off meeting the current recommendations for the transportation. We can’t just create bus drivers out of thin air. They recruit all the time but it’s a tough gig! Weird hours, dealing with kids... The plans talk about limiting the number of kids per bus. I just don’t know if our schools can meet that goal. If it’s a requirement then we are in trouble. Not everyone can drive their kid in.
-I mentioned before that above 10 absences here (per year) a Dr.’s note is required for each day beyond that. Some of you replied back that tele-health could possibly fill that gap but I’m not sure. It’s possible and I’d certainly research. But, if we are supposed to keep them home for possible Covid symptoms...well, those also look like a cold. Staying home for a cold is going to rack up a lot of days out. Ours still says fever free for 24 hours (I think). If it goes to 72 like pp said then there go even more days.

My ds1 starts college in August and he will be attending in person and living on campus. Now if only he hadn’t dragged his feet getting a registration date because there’s a chance he’ll be sitting in his dorm room attending class online because all the big classes are going that direction and that’s all that will be left. His journey. Not mine. [emoji847]


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[MSWR0319]

DH and I were discussing that all of our precautions to avoid getting sick are going to be useless if they go back to school with no masks and like normal. My kids need to go to school, I just don’t k ow what the ideal situation is to keep kids as healthy as possible. I let my very aware 8 year old play outside with a friend for an hour and even he couldn’t stay six feet apart (and he’s the social distance police). It’s going to be super hard to keep a full classroom of 25 kids spread out.

[westwoodmom04]

We need novel solutions to get these kids back at school.

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.

If teachers are unable to go in (older, immuno-compromised, high risk), they should teach via screen and have a sub there for classroom management.

Schools should employ block scheduling to limit passing periods. There is a ton of research on the benefits of block schedules.

Children have been largely spared from this, let's get them back to school. In Illinois, most schools have about 8-9 weeks of summer to come up with viable solutions.

Right there with you, my state is about to start in person summer school for kids identified at most at risk after distance learning, i.e., they did not participate.

[carolinamama]

Kids need to get back to the classroom for many reasons. It's a different world right now so schools need to do things differently to protect their teachers and families. We can do it but everyone must be wiling to encounter change. I'm fine with kids in masks and have been working with my kids on wearing them. My 8 year old is a champ and I trust her with one but maybe not for the K-2 set. Education is the key here.

Teachers have been told schools would close down for 14 days after a positive case and go remote. Should cases continue, schools will likely revert to distance learning for the duration. Given our numbers and lack of social distancing and mask compliance, there will be positive cases. Most of these other countries opening schools have better numbers and have still had multiple shutdowns due to outbreaks. Our country seems more tolerant of living with Covid in the community so it will be interesting.

Our public schools announce their opening plans July 1 and our private school will give full details on their decision on July 24.

[Kindra178]

I have heard soo many people say, "My kids aren't going back to school until there is a vaccine." That may be fine if you are talking about second grade, but what about high school? I don't even care about AP credit (I will encourage my kids not to take the tests!), but kids need to get prepared in high school to be able to perform at a college level. In four short years! If I ran the world, I would reform teacher contracts to start teaching the material from the day quarantine started. No promotion until that material is mastered. It's so ridiculous for the 8th graders, who are going on to the next level in math and foreign language without the benefit of teaching.

[bisous]

I have heard soo many people say, "My kids aren't going back to school until there is a vaccine." That may be fine if you are talking about second grade, but what about high school? I don't even care about AP credit (I will encourage my kids not to take the tests!), but kids need to get prepared in high school to be able to perform at a college level. In four short years! If I ran the world, I would reform teacher contracts to start teaching the material from the day quarantine started. No promotion until that material is mastered. It's so ridiculous for the 8th graders, who are going on to the next level in math and foreign language without the benefit of teaching.

Funny because I have a 2nd grader and a high schooler and I'd reverse the importance of in person learning for the two. DS1 (10th grade) had a very vigorous online learning experience. I think he was less inconvenienced by the online format and I think he was very much prepared for next year, whether he'll be sitting in a seat in high school or learning in my living room again. By contrast, I feel like my two littles, K and 2nd grade, really didn't get nearly as rich or full an experience with remote learning. Now I think they could get a lot out of a homeschooling program but it would be very hands on and very difficult for teachers at the elementary school to administer well--it would depend heavily on the skill of the PARENT rather than what the school could provide. My 7th grader had a very mixed experienced. He did progress in math but I feel some of his other teachers could have given more rigorous materials. If we do remote next year I think they'll be much more prepared.

But I don't think we're alone in disagreeing regarding which student population benefits more from in person learning! If I'm not mistaken, Germany allowed only its high seniors (or equivalent) to come back to school to end the year, while Sweden kept only its elementary aged students learning and middle and high school went remote.

Also, I'd say that this year the kids taking AP classes were at somewhat of an advantage in at least one respect--they got access to a national database of good instructors who presented exceptional quality online instructional videos! I didn't foresee that perk! The test taking for DS1 was ok but there are MANY horror stories out there of kids who poured their hearts and souls into taking the test and then ran into technical difficulties. It is heartbreaking!

[ezcc]

I know my dd's private school is prioritizing having younger students on campus for a full day- I think because they felt that online was harder for that age group, and I suppose for childcare purposes as well. They are hoping to have high school kids for part of the day at least, but may continue some online instruction for them. It is a k-12 school.

[PZMommy]

We need novel solutions to get these kids back at school.

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.

If teachers are unable to go in (older, immuno-compromised, high risk), they should teach via screen and have a sub there for classroom management.

Schools should employ block scheduling to limit passing periods. There is a ton of research on the benefits of block schedules.

Children have been largely spared from this, let's get them back to school. In Illinois, most schools have about 8-9 weeks of summer to come up with viable solutions.

The problem with live streaming class rooms, is teachers don’t stand in one spot. They would need to have someone there with a camera to follow the teacher around. Then there is the privacy issue of students in the class, and the lack of equipment to actually film and the bandwidth to live stream all day.

I think there will end up being two sets of teachers. One for in person and one for online instruction.

[AnnieW625]

I have heard soo many people say, "My kids aren't going back to school until there is a vaccine." That may be fine if you are talking about second grade, but what about high school? I don't even care about AP credit (I will encourage my kids not to take the tests!), but kids need to get prepared in high school to be able to perform at a college level. In four short years! If I ran the world, I would reform teacher contracts to start teaching the material from the day quarantine started. No promotion until that material is mastered. It's so ridiculous for the 8th graders, who are going on to the next level in math and foreign language without the benefit of teaching.

I very much agree with this. Subject matter should be scaled back (for the next couple of years to even 10 years) to not be as rigorous as it had been to deal with the possibility of remote learning and kids missing out on the basics. I would be happy if the last quarter of 4th grade was repeated for the 5th graders.

With that said though I am all for both my kids to go back to school. I would absolutely hate it if my 5th grade had to wear a mask all day though. She has AdHD and she fidgets and the mask would just be another excuse for her to fidget and she moves it below her nose so it doesn’t fog up her glasses if she has to wear it for more than 10 minutes. She has to wear one for art camp next week so we will see how it goes. I know so many others including DH who hate the fogging up of glasses, but I do agree that masks for kids younger than say 14-15 are going to be a nuisance (especially if they have to wear glasses.....and no Dd2 is not ready for contacts). Dd1 will wear a mask if required, but she is 14 and responsible about it, but honestly I don’t even think it should be required all day in high school either.

Our new district is closed through tomorrow so I am hoping that they break their silence about the learning plan for next year soon. If Dd2 isn’t in school full time I am sure we won’t be the only family having to hire a tutor or part time nanny just to work with the kids while we are working.

There is going to be no perfect plan though. What works in Europe or even Canada may not even work in the US just due to population.


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[doberbrat]

The problem with live streaming class rooms, is teachers don’t stand in one spot. They would need to have someone there with a camera to follow the teacher around. Then there is the privacy issue of students in the class, and the lack of equipment to actually film and the bandwidth to live stream all day.

I think there will end up being two sets of teachers. One for in person and one for online instruction.

I agree - though I see issues with 2 sets of teachers too. Who gets to stay home? I see that being a perk for many teachers - no commute, able to go to the bathroom, no before/after school duties and not as many kids to teach. Contractually how is that going to work?

Plus what about teachers' kids?

The issue of masks is going to be a big one because so many adults are refusing to wear them or wearing them incorrectly. If we adults said to our kids, 'You WILL wear it consistently and properly because it is the right thing to do' than kids would be much more likely to do so. I forsee so many parents telling the school their kid is exempt because of asthma or sensory issues - kids who have never had an asthma attack or sensory issues in school before. Then it will snowball. Why should my kid bother to wear a mask if those 5 aren't?

[Kindra178]

Pz

Wouldn’t the streaming be done on a laptop with the record feature? The teacher could carry it to circle time, and keep it focused on the front of the room when up there.

I wish more districts did team teaching. If a district has 10 first grades, the teachers should share responsibility for recording or live streaming.

Our middle school’s 6th grade math teacher recorded all her lessons one year. What a great resource for when a kid is absent.


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[Kestrel]

Anything less that a full-time school day for the elementary school is going to cause enough job problems to bankrupt half the families we know. We are a low income school - last I checked, something like 67% free/reduced lunch. Asking those families to have a parent stay home - or asking their employer to work with some kind of rotating schedule - or asking low-income families to pay for childcare - is too great a burden.
I don't know what our local school is going to do. I know one of the things discussed was one week classroom, next week virtual. That would suck. A huge number (something like 30%) of our students have no internet access and/or device. (The school's solution was to have parents bring their kids to school, and sit in the parking lot in their cars to use the school's wifi.) There is talk of getting one device per child, and having the kids bring them back and forth to school each day, as young as 2nd grade. That's scary - I've seen the inside of DS's backpack! and what school papers look like when they come out!
Mask use here is less than 50%, and less than that wear them correctly. If we can't get adults to do it right, can we expect kids to do it right?

Unfortunately, there is not a good solution. It's going to be pick a bad choice and see how it goes. Honestly, I think different school districts will try different things, and the guinea pig students are going to get sick at different rates. Then hopefully schools will adopt whatever works best. (I don't think there will ever be an effective vaccine, as best a semi-effective one like the flu vaccine. And many, many families will opt out.)

[bisous]

I wouldn’t want live-streaming in lower grades! What makes sense jn person doesn’t translate online for 7yos.

[melrose7]

DD1 is set to go July 1 for extended school year. We will see how that goes while they continue to figure out fall. She is at a special needs school where 150 kids are residential and only 50 are day students like DD. The residential kids have stayed there the whole time the school has been shutdown. They are keeping the day students away from the residents when they go back on July 1.
She needs to be at school. This year has been horrible so praying the summer school is a smooth transition.

[PZMommy]

Pz

Wouldn’t the streaming be done on a laptop with the record feature? The teacher could carry it to circle time, and keep it focused on the front of the room when up there.

I wish more districts did team teaching. If a district has 10 first grades, the teachers should share responsibility for recording or live streaming.

Our middle school’s 6th grade math teacher recorded all her lessons one year. What a great resource for when a kid is absent.


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Most of my instruction is done in small groups. My kids are grouped and move through centers throughout the day. The group at “my center” gets different instruction based on their needs, and the centers set up throughout the room and geared towards the different levels as well. I do this for language arts and math. I guess the kids at home would just get each of my table groups??

As for who decides who teaches at home vs in schools, over half the teachers in my district fall into a risk category, so I guess those would be the ones to teach at home. The problem is a lot of teachers that do not have risk factors are still not willing to go back either. If the district can’t guarantee the teacher’s safety, most don’t want to go back. We can’t trust our district to have soap and paper towels, so how on earth can we trust them to have enough PPE for us when the budgets are being cut. My district is most likely not going back in the fall, unless the government gives us a bail out as the district can’t afford any of the safety measures and are afraid of lawsuits.

There is not going to be a one size fits all method that works. Smaller districts may be able to follow guidelines better. Larger districts are going to have a harder time.

[carolinacool]

Anything less that a full-time school day for the elementary school is going to cause enough job problems to bankrupt half the families we know. We are a low income school - last I checked, something like 67% free/reduced lunch. Asking those families to have a parent stay home - or asking their employer to work with some kind of rotating schedule - or asking low-income families to pay for childcare - is too great a burden.

It's still a big ask for families of more middle-class means. A few weeks back there were a bunch of headlines about WFH being "the way of the future" for white-color office workers, but that's not really the case. I have a friend who works in marketing for a small health-care advocacy company and she is supposed to go back into the office next month. And my company: we have a few offices in the U.S. and some scattered around the world. In April, the talk was no one was going back anytime soon -- maybe not until deep into the fall. And now I'm hearing that some offices abroad and a couple in the U.S. are reopening in the next couple of weeks. They say that no one has to go back unless they want to, but who knows what the word will be in three months.

There is talk that my country/district will institute some sort of virtual learning academy for parents who don't fell safe sending their kids back. There's definitely support for it on my FB mom groups, but to Kindra's point, it's a very vocal minority. A lot of those women are more affluent and seem to be SAHPs, which is not representative of the district as a whole.

DS will be attending school, even if DH and I are still working from home in late August. Distance learning proved to be a challenge for him and he needs to be evaluated for his IEP as soon as the school doors open. Our state released some school guidelines a couple of weeks ago. The section on masks said they were highly, highly encouraged, especially for middle and high school students, but were not a requirement for students. But again, things can change.

[Kindra178]

Most of my instruction is done in small groups. My kids are grouped and move through centers throughout the day. The group at “my center” gets different instruction based on their needs, and the centers set up throughout the room and geared towards the different levels as well. I do this for language arts and math. I guess the kids at home would just get each of my table groups??

As for who decides who teaches at home vs in schools, over half the teachers in my district fall into a risk category, so I guess those would be the ones to teach at home. The problem is a lot of teachers that do not have risk factors are still not willing to go back either. If the district can’t guarantee the teacher’s safety, most don’t want to go back. We can’t trust our district to have soap and paper towels, so how on earth can we trust them to have enough PPE for us when the budgets are being cut. My district is most likely not going back in the fall, unless the government gives us a bail out as the district can’t afford any of the safety measures and are afraid of lawsuits.

There is not going to be a one size fits all method that works. Smaller districts may be able to follow guidelines better. Larger districts are going to have a harder time.

What do the children do who are full time gymnasts or skaters (or whatever?). My friend’s daughter has been enrolled in part time in person and part time online school for years. In Florida!


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[PZMommy]

What do the children do who are full time gymnasts or skaters (or whatever?). My friend’s daughter has been enrolled in part time in person and part time online school for years. In Florida!


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A lot of those are special online schools which cater to those kinds of students. Not your general public school. I know my district has special programs for kids in the entertainment business, too sick to attend school, etc, but those are special programs for a select number of students. Not something that can be done for 600,000 students. I had a student awhile back who was in a movie, and she had a set teacher who consulted with me and I provided some work, but then the set teacher was the one who taught her the material and all the work was turned in when she returned to class. Same thing with kids too sick for school. They are reassigned to a special home/hospital school. The teacher assigned to them consults with the classroom teacher, but the home/hospital teacher is the one that visits the student for a few hours a week and provides the instruction.

[mommy111]

There are educational options that don’t involve putting kids and their families at risk. I say this with older kids but high schoolers can totally be expected to wear masks. There is no one size fits all solution that will work across all grades so we need to think innovatively here

[essnce629]

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.



The problem with live streaming class rooms, is teachers don’t stand in one spot. They would need to have someone there with a camera to follow the teacher around. Then there is the privacy issue of students in the class, and the lack of equipment to actually film and the bandwidth to live stream all day.

I think there will end up being two sets of teachers. One for in person and one for online instruction.

This can be solved with already existing tech. My best friend's DD is starting high school in the fall at a private catholic high school (our alma mater). The school already announced their fall plans weeks ago. They are going to a hybrid program to reduce class sizes. The "A" group of students will attend in person 3 days a week while the "B" group of students are learning live remotely at home. The following week they'll switch places. The school invested in technology that includes a sensor that all the teachers wear and a camera system in the classroom that uses the sensor to follow and record the teacher as they move. This should keep only the teacher on camera and prevent the need of having 2 sets of teachers.

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[PZMommy]

This can be solved with already existing tech. My best friend's DD is starting high school in the fall at a private catholic high school (our alma mater). The school already announced their fall plans weeks ago. They are going to a hybrid program to reduce class sizes. The "A" group of students will attend in person 3 days a week while the "B" group of students are learning live remotely at home. The following week they'll switch places. The school invested in technology that includes a sensor that all the teachers wear and a camera system in the classroom that uses the sensor to follow and record the teacher as they move. This should keep only the teacher on camera and prevent the need of having 2 sets of teachers.

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Unfortunately this will cost a lot of money that most public school districts can’t afford with all of the budget cuts!

Also the hybrid model does nothing to reduce risks to teachers and staff. They are still being exposed to all of the students. If I’m going to be exposed to all of the students anyways, might as well have them all come on the same day.

[carolinamama]

What do the children do who are full time gymnasts or skaters (or whatever?). My friend’s daughter has been enrolled in part time in person and part time online school for years. In Florida!


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Lots of options for these kids around here but all the public ones are application schools and those happened back in January. DD is a gymnast (8 years old). We haven't jumped to the day program yet but she's been asked several times so I've paid attention to the options. Some kids are homeschooled, some do online school - either private or through the district- and others are in a hybrid program where they go to a campus 2 days a week to check in and receive lessons but do work at home for the most part.

I seriously feel like there are options but it feels like our country has had 3 months to work on it and still failed to think outside the box. Or hire consultants from tried and true online schools to advise, especially for the older kids. And heaven-forbid we just give more resources to our education system or families living without the means to survive under these circumstances :rolleye0014:

DH came home today telling me that another large school district in our state has no real plan for making school work this fall. His company is in charge of all their facilities and construction so I'm not sure who he exactly talked to, but most likely someone who was privy to real information. I was really hoping DS1 could attend school in a building at least part time this fall (9th grade) but DH is pushing to find an alternative based on his conversations today.

[sf333]

We need novel solutions to get these kids back at school.

Live stream classrooms so worried parents can keep their kids home if necessary (vocal minority in my opinion) and sick kids can really stay home.

If teachers are unable to go in (older, immuno-compromised, high risk), they should teach via screen and have a sub there for classroom management.

Schools should employ block scheduling to limit passing periods. There is a ton of research on the benefits of block schedules.

Children have been largely spared from this, let's get them back to school. In Illinois, most schools have about 8-9 weeks of summer to come up with viable solutions.

Yes, children have been largely spared. The problem is that it’s not just children in schools. Among teachers and staff, there are people in high risk categories and over the age of 60. There are also teachers who depend on people in those categories (like grandparents) for childcare. I feel like staff are often left out of the conversation.

What happens when a teacher contracts covid and is out of work for weeks or months? In our district, it is very challenging to find subs.

Also, if a school chooses to go back to in-person schooling full time, how will high risk children be educated? What about high risk staff who can’t/won’t take the chance of being in a school environment?

[PZMommy]

Yes, children have been largely spared. The problem is that it’s not just children in schools. Among teachers and staff, there are people in high risk categories and over the age of 60. There are also teachers who depend on people in those categories (like grandparents) for childcare. I feel like staff are often left out of the conversation.

What happens when a teacher contracts covid and is out of work for weeks or months? In our district, it is very challenging to find subs.

Also, if a school chooses to go back to in-person schooling full time, how will high risk children be educated? What about high risk staff who can’t/won’t take the chance of being in a school environment?

This is what I’ve been saying. Thankfully the teacher’s union here is negotiating how the school year will start. I normally hate our superintendent, but he is taking staff into account as well as the students.

[wencit]

For the past few weeks, DS2 has been taking an online math class from the local tutoring center. Initially I didn't have high hopes for it, but the teacher has been absolutely fantastic and really shown that it's possible to do a good job with distance learning. She keeps a class of soon-to-be 5th graders completely entertained and engaged for over 1.5 hours every morning. She plays online games with them (math related), instructs them on a lesson, and does math problems with them. She can see all the kids on her screen, and as soon as DS2 looks like he's losing focus or starts chatting with me, she "calls on him" to give an answer in class. She's apparently a math teacher at the local high school. Her lessons are very thoughtful, well-planned, and intentional.

Obviously, a tutoring class has fewer students than a regular public school classroom, and what works for a group of 5th graders won't necessarily work for a group of kindergartners. Is it perfect? No. No situation will be. However, she's shown me that distance learning doesn't have to be the disaster it was this past spring if educators are willing to be creative and dedicated. I'm feeling hopeful that with the extra time we have, teachers in our school district will be able to come up with similar plans as well. Too bad she can't be my kids' teacher next year!

[niccig]

Yes, children have been largely spared. The problem is that it’s not just children in schools. Among teachers and staff, there are people in high risk categories and over the age of 60. There are also teachers who depend on people in those categories (like grandparents) for childcare. I feel like staff are often left out of the conversation.

What happens when a teacher contracts covid and is out of work for weeks or months? In our district, it is very challenging to find subs.

Also, if a school chooses to go back to in-person schooling full time, how will high risk children be educated? What about high risk staff who can’t/won’t take the chance of being in a school environment?

Yes to this. People seem to forget that teachers have higher risk than kids do and if the teacher is seeing everyone, they can spread it to students who then take it home to their parents and grandparents. Plus teachers have their own kids, who will care for them on days they are not in school? Several of my colleagues with kids may take leave as they can’t go back to school full time until their own kids are back full time.

I have no idea how I’m to do my job with social distancing. I usually see 20-25 students a day from several classes, then the next day, I go to a different school. I’ll be spreading germs from everyone. My room isn’t big enough to have 3 students 6’ apart!


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[basil]

Ok, yes, COVID is scary, but do you guys realize that there are gazillions of people in health care who work in riskier environments who are also "at risk"? And who have childcare issues and kids of their own and rely on grandparents for childcare etc.

Not just doctors and nurses (though there a lot of those too) but secretaries and front desk staff and housekeepers and cafeteria staff and CNAs who work in nursing homes for minimum wage.

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9

And teachers who have kids will be in the exact same childcare situation as the rest of us trying to figure out how to possibly obtain part time temporary childcare if we don't resume to a full time schedule.

[Kindra178]

Basil, this is how I feel about snow days!


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[Liziz]

Ok, yes, COVID is scary, but do you guys realize that there are gazillions of people in health care who work in riskier environments who are also "at risk"? And who have childcare issues and kids of their own and rely on grandparents for childcare etc.

Not just doctors and nurses (though there a lot of those too) but secretaries and front desk staff and housekeepers and cafeteria staff and CNAs who work in nursing homes for minimum wage.

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9

And teachers who have kids will be in the exact same childcare situation as the rest of us trying to figure out how to possibly obtain part time temporary childcare if we don't resume to a full time schedule.

I agree.

[scrooks]

Ok, yes, COVID is scary, but do you guys realize that there are gazillions of people in health care who work in riskier environments who are also "at risk"? And who have childcare issues and kids of their own and rely on grandparents for childcare etc.

Not just doctors and nurses (though there a lot of those too) but secretaries and front desk staff and housekeepers and cafeteria staff and CNAs who work in nursing homes for minimum wage.

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9

And teachers who have kids will be in the exact same childcare situation as the rest of us trying to figure out how to possibly obtain part time temporary childcare if we don't resume to a full time schedule.

I also agree!

[georgiegirl]

Ok, yes, COVID is scary, but do you guys realize that there are gazillions of people in health care who work in riskier environments who are also "at risk"? And who have childcare issues and kids of their own and rely on grandparents for childcare etc.

Not just doctors and nurses (though there a lot of those too) but secretaries and front desk staff and housekeepers and cafeteria staff and CNAs who work in nursing homes for minimum wage.

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9

And teachers who have kids will be in the exact same childcare situation as the rest of us trying to figure out how to possibly obtain part time temporary childcare if we don't resume to a full time schedule.

I find this off putting and unfair. You cannot compare hospitals to schools. Hospitals have ample PPE. Patients are (for the most part) compliant. Staff isn’t taking care of 20 patients in one room at one time. Kids (elementary) don’t listen, they don’t understand social distancing. At school they interact closely with others, and the space is crowded. You can’t say anyone at hospital works under the same conditions.

Dh is a physician, and he reports that everything is completely under control at his work (he never stopped seeing patients). In three months, only one person has refused to wear a mask. He feels VERY safe at work. It’s totally different in a school setting. I’ve been to two doctors offices, and again, the environment was super controlled (temp checks, masks, people spaced in the waiting room). It’s laughable to think public schools could be run similarly on their funding and current space/staff numbers.

[o_mom]

Ok, yes, COVID is scary, but do you guys realize that there are gazillions of people in health care who work in riskier environments who are also "at risk"? And who have childcare issues and kids of their own and rely on grandparents for childcare etc.

Not just doctors and nurses (though there a lot of those too) but secretaries and front desk staff and housekeepers and cafeteria staff and CNAs who work in nursing homes for minimum wage.

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9

And teachers who have kids will be in the exact same childcare situation as the rest of us trying to figure out how to possibly obtain part time temporary childcare if we don't resume to a full time schedule.

I agree that childcare issues will be universal.

However, I think it is an apples to oranges comparison as far as the risk. Going into a known situation with proper PPE (for the most part at this point) with one person at a time in shorter durations, vs. no PPE and 30 potential contacts for a whole day.

And if you think that a 3rd grade teacher just stands in front of a class of 20 kids... well, there are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to begin.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I agree that childcare issues will be universal.

However, I think it is an apples to oranges comparison as far as the risk. Going into a known situation with proper PPE (for the most part at this point) with one person at a time in shorter durations, vs. no PPE and 30 potential contacts for a whole day.

And if you think that a 3rd grade teacher just stands in front of a class of 20 kids... well, there are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to begin.

[emoji817]
Not a comparable argument at all.


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[bisous]

I find this off putting and unfair. You cannot compare hospitals to schools. Hospitals have ample PPE. Patients are (for the most part) compliant. Staff isn’t taking care of 20 patients in one room at one time. Kids (elementary) don’t listen, they don’t understand social distancing. At school they interact closely with others, and the space is crowded. You can’t say anyone at hospital works under the same conditions.

Dh is a physician, and he reports that everything is completely under control at his work (he never stopped seeing patients). In three months, only one person has refused to wear a mask. He feels VERY safe at work. It’s totally different in a school setting. I’ve been to two doctors offices, and again, the environment was super controlled (temp checks, masks, people spaced in the waiting room). It’s laughable to think public schools could be run similarly on their funding and current space/staff numbers.

I'm glad to read this. OP, I've really appreciated your perspective on how we can be safer in tough environments taking the example of healthcare workers.

I do think it is entirely a new animal to be put in a scenario where you are charged, not only with keeping 20 kids safe, but also actually helping them to learn and expand their competencies in key subject areas. And then to do it using PPE that restricts movement and ability to see, move, interact, and clearly communicate with those kids.

Georgiegirl makes an excellent point about the compliance of 3rd graders.

I also think no school makes things really difficult for many, many families. But I don't think it is fair to ask teachers to walk into that environment if they are susceptible to the risk factors that make COVID so scary and dangerous.

I'm hoping that there are more like my sister who are relatively young and healthy and cannot WAIT to be back in school, teaching.

I still really wonder if we surveyed the public and found out who wanted their kids to attend school, and which teachers wanted to actually be in school teaching and if the numbers might match up? I know personally my little kids missed school but because I can school them from home and if that would help get to the numbers that are needed for safe, effective teaching that I'd take one for the team and school them at home.

[westwoodmom04]

I agree that childcare issues will be universal.

However, I think it is an apples to oranges comparison as far as the risk. Going into a known situation with proper PPE (for the most part at this point) with one person at a time in shorter durations, vs. no PPE and 30 potential contacts for a whole day.

And if you think that a 3rd grade teacher just stands in front of a class of 20 kids... well, there are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to begin.


A typical worker in a hospital has way more than 30 contacts per day (although I suspect a teacher has more than 30 as well), and they are also way more likely to come in contact with someone who has covid, because sick people are suppose to be in hospital and not suppose to be in school. Sure, some people with covid will still wind up at school, but the probability of contact is much lower.

In any case, our private is leaning towards having face shields for all teachers and students at the lower school level for two reasons: probably more comfortable and likely to be used correctly by kids, and makes it easier for everyone to be heard/understood. Not sure how expensive this route is versus masks, and whether it could be replicated in public schools.

Also, schools my kids attend not planning to close for positive cases, instead will use a test and trace system of some kind, still being worked out.

This is the result of input from public health consultants.

[basil]

I find this off putting and unfair. You cannot compare hospitals to schools. Hospitals have ample PPE. Patients are (for the most part) compliant. Staff isn’t taking care of 20 patients in one room at one time. Kids (elementary) don’t listen, they don’t understand social distancing. At school they interact closely with others, and the space is crowded. You can’t say anyone at hospital works under the same conditions.

Dh is a physician, and he reports that everything is completely under control at his work (he never stopped seeing patients). In three months, only one person has refused to wear a mask. He feels VERY safe at work. It’s totally different in a school setting. I’ve been to two doctors offices, and again, the environment was super controlled (temp checks, masks, people spaced in the waiting room). It’s laughable to think public schools could be run similarly on their funding and current space/staff numbers.

You can find it however you want it.

But funding is a changeable variable. PPE is a changeable variable. Needing kids to have in person school is not a changeable variable.

The risk of 1 kid out of 20 having COVID <<<<< 100 patients coming through the ER in any given night having COVID, and therefore the exposure risk is still LESS for a teacher than any healthcare setting. Yes, kids will move around, but are so much less likely to be contagious, that THAT is a laughable comparison.

Hire more staff. Buy PPE. This is where we should be focusing our efforts. Not on resuming virtual learning because teachers are frightened and sacrificing our children's education and mental health. Imagine if all healthcare providers had done that in March/April when the CDC was suggesting treat COVID patients while covering our face with scarves and bandanas and we got 1 surgical mask a week.

Split schedule or virtual leaning will be a childcare nightmare and cause many people (mainly women, teachers or not, maybe me included!) to leave or cut down hours in the workplace. Economic and societal implications of that are not insignificant.

It is possible. It is necessary. Teachers are essential workers.

[basil]

A typical worker in a hospital has way more than 30 contacts per day (although I suspect a teacher has more than 30 as well), and they are also way more likely to come in contact with someone who has covid, because sick people are suppose to be in hospital and not suppose to be in school. Sure, some people with covid will still wind up at school, but the probability of contact is much lower.

In any case, our private is leaning towards having face shields for all teachers and students at the lower school level for two reasons: probably more comfortable and likely to be used correctly by kids, and makes it easier for everyone to be heard/understood. Not sure how expensive this route is versus masks, and whether it could be replicated in public schools.

Also, schools my kids attend not planning to close for positive cases, instead will use a test and trace system of some kind, still being worked out.

This is the result of input from public health consultants.

This seems like a very reasonable plan.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I agree, Basil, that teachers are essential workers but I don’t think you’re very well in touch with the budget realities of many school districts. Hiring more teachers is an obvious solution that not many schools can actually afford. Local schools here are furloughing teachers. Look outside of your district and see the numbers other districts have to work with.


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[basil]

I also think no school makes things really difficult for many, many families. But I don't think it is fair to ask teachers to walk into that environment if they are susceptible to the risk factors that make COVID so scary and dangerous.

I'm hoping that there are more like my sister who are relatively young and healthy and cannot WAIT to be back in school, teaching.


I just had this conversation with my mother this morning (retired elementary/middle school teacher). Her take? If older teachers too scared to come back, then they can quit, and a newer younger enthusiastic teacher can take their place.

[o_mom]

A typical worker in a hospital has way more than 30 contacts per day (although I suspect a teacher has more than 30 as well)....

Yes, but a hospital worker does not have 30 marginally-compliant contacts simultaneously, who are more likely to be asymptomatic or presymptomatic spreaders (and so less cautious).

I don't think anyone can say at this point which is more risky and telling people that they shouldn't be concerned because someone else has a higher risk is not helpful. I guess the meat-packers or grocery store workers shouldn't ask for more precautions because they aren't working in hospitals?

Contact tracing only works if the cohorts are small enough. A small private school can probably do that. Our high school has over 5000 kids, plus staff. Good luck figuring out who they were in contact with. Also, while they might not plan to close for every positive case, if they reach a certain threshold they will have to close. There are usually one or two schools around here every year that close for influenza or norovirus because they have a certain percentage of sick kids.

[basil]

I agree, Basil, that teachers are essential workers but I don’t think you’re very well in touch with the budget realities of many school districts. Hiring more teachers is an obvious solution that not many schools can actually afford. Local schools here are furloughing teachers. Look outside of your district and see the numbers other districts have to work with.


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I don't think many here are in touch with hospital budgets, and the humongously huge amount of $$$ that most hospital systems have lost in the last few months, yet still continued to operate. Hospitals have been receiving PPE from the state govt, so no reason that cannot at this point be redirected towards schools.

Towns/cities need to fund their schools better. Or money or PPE needs to come from state or federal government in order to fund safe schools.

[basil]

Yes, but a hospital worker does not have 30 marginally-compliant contacts simultaneously, who are more likely to be asymptomatic or presymptomatic spreaders (and so less cautious).

I don't think anyone can say at this point which is more risky and telling people that they shouldn't be concerned because someone else has a higher risk is not helpful. I guess the meat-packers or grocery store workers shouldn't ask for more precautions because they aren't working in hospitals?



No, that's the whole point, meat packers and grocery store workers SHOULD have more precautions! They should have all the precautions, but still do their jobs. Like doctors and nurses and ER secretaries and teachers. Everyone should have all the precautions but still function, not just stop life.

And an ER doctor easily has 30+ marginally compliant patients in a night. So does anyone who has worked on a psychiatric floor.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I don't think many here are in touch with hospital budgets, and the humongously huge amount of $$$ that most hospital systems have lost in the last few months, yet still continued to operate. Hospitals have been receiving PPE from the state govt, so no reason that cannot at this point be redirected towards schools.

Towns/cities need to fund their schools better. Or money or PPE needs to come from state or federal government in order to fund safe schools.

School funding is a huge problem for many areas of the country. Unfortunately it’s not a simple fix...and not one that will get fixed while this planning needs to take place. Assume schools will have to work with what they currently have.


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[o_mom]

I just had this conversation with my mother this morning (retired elementary/middle school teacher). Her take? If older teachers too scared to come back, then they can quit, and a newer younger enthusiastic teacher can take their place.

Good luck finding them. Enrollment in teaching programs has declined by a third in the last 10 years. The number of teachers quitting the profession in the first five years is not small.

The budgets of most districts are tight to begin with and so far the best case scenario is that they will maintain the same level of funding (many states are seeing a sharp decline in revenue and cutting).

[ang79]

Not only do schools not have funding to hire more teachers, they don’t have enough substitutes to cover classrooms if staff get sick, nor do they have enough extra rooms to space kids out. My kids’ schools are maxed out, utilizing all classrooms, but the district is still growing, so class sizes keep growing. Last year during flu season there were several buildings each day that did not have enough subs so classes were doubled up or covered by learning support teachers and reading specialists (which meant they couldn’t see their regular students those days). I am a substitute teacher in our k-6 buildings and I’m not sure how the cdc guidelines can be followed in any of our buildings or on busses. I know our teachers and staff will be super creative in trying to make things work but it’s still going to be a hot mess.


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[bisous]

I just had this conversation with my mother this morning (retired elementary/middle school teacher). Her take? If older teachers too scared to come back, then they can quit, and a newer younger enthusiastic teacher can take their place.

I'm speechless and sad.

ETA: My mom is also a retired elementary school teacher and she would never, ever say this.

[o_mom]

No, that's the whole point, meat packers and grocery store workers SHOULD have more precautions! They should have all the precautions, but still do their jobs. Like doctors and nurses and ER secretaries and teachers. Everyone should have all the precautions but still function, not just stop life.

And an ER doctor easily has 30+ marginally compliant patients in a night. So does anyone who has worked on a psychiatric floor.

So, in the absence of any precautions because schools don't have funds to put them in place, what should teachers do?

And I don't think the ER doc has 30 patients *simultaneously* with no help... At least not in any ER I have been in.

(And yes, 30, because 20 students in a class is not the reality here)

[bisous]

I'm speechless and sad.

ETA: My mom is also a retired elementary school teacher and she would never, ever say this.

Second add: So your job is so important that school must go on, regardless of risk to teacher and pupil, so that you can have childcare but older teachers should just quit?

I gotta step off this thread...

[basil]

I'm speechless and sad.

ETA: My mom is also a retired elementary school teacher and she would never, ever say this.

But what would happen in any other job? If your job requires that you show up, and you don't, then you can't do the job! It's not mean, it's just reality.

And if your mom didn't know any burned out cynical older teachers who thought of teaching as a chore...then I'll say I've never seen any burned out older shaky surgeons who thought patients were a chore. Not all older teachers and not all older surgeons fall into those categories. But some do, and they should leave. Especially if they are going to advocate for not doing their jobs!

[basil]

Second add: So your job is so important that school must go on, regardless of risk to teacher and pupil, so that you can have childcare but older teachers should just quit?

I gotta step off this thread...


Nope. I have a nanny. Don't NEED school. But I recognize that I am one of very very privileged few who can do this.

I am saying that I understand the risks of COVID better than most here. And the risk is low. And the risk of not going back in societal/economic/educational/mental health is enormous. And more of a risk than COVID.

[basil]

So, in the absence of any precautions because schools don't have funds to put them in place, what should teachers do?

And I don't think the ER doc has 30 patients *simultaneously* with no help... At least not in any ER I have been in.

(And yes, 30, because 20 students in a class is not the reality here)


Teachers should advocate for getting PPE through their unions. Just like healthcare providers advocated for getting PPE. They shouldn't advocate for not returning to school.

[westwoodmom04]

Yes, but a hospital worker does not have 30 marginally-compliant contacts simultaneously, who are more likely to be asymptomatic or presymptomatic spreaders (and so less cautious).

I don't think anyone can say at this point which is more risky and telling people that they shouldn't be concerned because someone else has a higher risk is not helpful. I guess the meat-packers or grocery store workers shouldn't ask for more precautions because they aren't working in hospitals?

Contact tracing only works if the cohorts are small enough. A small private school can probably do that. Our high school has over 5000 kids, plus staff. Good luck figuring out who they were in contact with. Also, while they might not plan to close for every positive case, if they reach a certain threshold they will have to close. There are usually one or two schools around here every year that close for influenza or norovirus because they have a certain percentage of sick kids.

5000 is actually very manageable for test and trace, and with planning, the school can make more of an effort to keep the same. cohorts of kids together throughout the day. No one is arguing that there should be no safety precautions in place. Every workplace is wrestling with these issues and coming up with protocols to protect their workers, it is not unique to schools and hospitals.

I do understand that people are scared, the media has magnified every negative story to the nth degree, and created an impression that most people are more at risk than they actually are. The virus is dwindling in most states outside a few current hot spots, and affecting less than one percent of the population most places. We now have pretty accurate statistics defining who is most at risk, and the prevalence of the virus by zip code. We need to use the data we have.

[smilequeen]

Second add: So your job is so important that school must go on, regardless of risk to teacher and pupil, so that you can have childcare but older teachers should just quit?

I gotta step off this thread...

I don't know, it may sound cold...but perhaps it's just a knowledge of the extensive damage this is going to do to many of our kids, psychologically, emotionally, developmentally, academically. It's put a lot of kids at risk in a lot of different ways that can't be ignored either. It's a terrible situation, but at this point, there is going to have to be a lot of balance of all the risks for the long term. Being back at school is better for many/most kids.


My kids' schools (private) have already announced that they have every intention of going back in person. Our smaller elementary school has already laid out their plans. It's a small student population with more than adequate space, so they had an easier time. Our secondary school is supposed to send out detailed plans today. They will have to do more, so I'm curious to see what...by my boys have said they don't care what they have to do, wear, change, they just want to be back in school.

[o_mom]

Teachers should advocate for getting PPE through their unions. Just like healthcare providers advocated for getting PPE. They shouldn't advocate for not returning to school.

I think the point is that the schools are not committing to PPE, or any precautions. PP's school has had funding issues for basic hygiene supplies in the past and sure as heck don't have money for more teachers or aides. So, yes, if there was proper PPE, smaller classes, more space, etc., then you would probably not hear that. The money just isn't there.

Solving all of this in the next 6 weeks is going to be difficult, so I don't think it is out of line for teachers to question if it will be safe to return to their classrooms.

[westwoodmom04]

Good luck finding them. Enrollment in teaching programs has declined by a third in the last 10 years. The number of teachers quitting the profession in the first five years is not small.

The budgets of most districts are tight to begin with and so far the best case scenario is that they will maintain the same level of funding (many states are seeing a sharp decline in revenue and cutting).

That was with 5 percent or less unemployment. We now have close to 20 percent unemployment. School systems should let teachers who are high risk or have high risk family members have accommodations. But let’s be real, there are no other occupations where people can refuse to come to work, and have no expectation of not losing their job.

[bisous]

But what would happen in any other job? If your job requires that you show up, and you don't, then you can't do the job! It's not mean, it's just reality.

And if your mom didn't know any burned out cynical older teachers who thought of teaching as a chore...then I'll say I've never seen any burned out older shaky surgeons who thought patients were a chore. Not all older teachers and not all older surgeons fall into those categories. But some do, and they should leave. Especially if they are going to advocate for not doing their jobs!

We aren't talking about burned out teachers. We're talking about older teachers. Teachers don't make a great salary and many of them need to continue to work. I don't think it is fair to say that they should quit. I think they should be able to find a way to have a safe work environment. Lots of employers aren't turning their backs on their most vulnerable employees. DH works for a big bad corporation but they've indicated that they will let their employees continue to work remotely indefinitely if needed in the wake of COVID.

Lots of essential workers have succumbed to this disease too. I don't know the rates at hospitals. I just know that the populations that my sister teaches (ESOL high school students) she's had two STUDENTS hospitalized from COVID and it struck entire immigrant families. All these families worked in industries deemed "essential" and they weren't protected. I don't know the details of why but I don't want this for our teachers!

I think solutions exist. I think to simply say "everyone just wear PPE" is not realistic for so many of the reasons that PPs have mentioned.

I have also read that kids don't pass along the virus very well. I hope we get more clarification on that point. That might be a way to solve this. I can see a teacher wearing a face shield and social distancing far easier than I can see Kindergarteners tolerating masks and separation for any stretch of time.

[SnuggleBuggles]

That was with 5 percent or less unemployment. We now have close to 20 percent unemployment. School systems should let teachers who are high risk or have high risk family members have accommodations. But let’s be real, there are no other occupations where people can refuse to come to work, and have no expectation of not losing their job.

How does it matter what the unemployment rate is if there are fewer trained teachers? The point is that there isn’t a waiting stable of new teachers clamoring for teaching jobs right now.


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[bisous]

5000 is actually very manageable for test and trace, and with planning, the school can make more of an effort to keep the same. cohorts of kids together throughout the day. No one is arguing that there should be no safety precautions in place. Every workplace is wrestling with these issues and coming up with protocols to protect their workers, it is not unique to schools and hospitals.

I do understand that people are scared, the media has magnified every negative story to the nth degree, and created an impression that most people are more at risk than they actually are. The virus is dwindling in most states outside a few current hot spots, and affecting less than one percent of the population most places. We now have pretty accurate statistics defining who is most at risk, and the prevalence of the virus by zip code. We need to use the data we have.

Do you have citations for that last paragraph? I'm kind of obsessed with following COVID news and this seems different than my perception of how things are going. I feel like there is so much information being released that synthesizing it is really challenging so I'm being sincere!

[o_mom]

That was with 5 percent or less unemployment. We now have close to 20 percent unemployment. School systems should let teachers who are high risk or have high risk family members have accommodations. But let’s be real, there are no other occupations where people can refuse to come to work, and have no expectation of not losing their job.

Um, not sure how that will help 6 weeks from now. There is not this massive pool of "young enthusiastic teachers" out there just waiting to be hired. Getting more teachers trained will take 4+ years.

I agree that they can't just refuse to come to work, but the schools also have a responsibility to provide a safe work environment. Most schools have not given any indication of HOW they are going to do that or IF they can afford to do it.

[basil]

We aren't talking about burned out teachers. We're talking about older teachers. Teachers don't make a great salary and many of them need to continue to work. I don't think it is fair to say that they should quit. I think they should be able to find a way to have a safe work environment. Lots of employers aren't turning their backs on their most vulnerable employees. DH works for a big bad corporation but they've indicated that they will let their employees continue to work remotely indefinitely if needed in the wake of COVID.

Lots of essential workers have succumbed to this disease too. I don't know the rates at hospitals. I just know that the populations that my sister teaches (ESOL high school students) she's had two STUDENTS hospitalized from COVID and it struck entire immigrant families. All these families worked in industries deemed "essential" and they weren't protected. I don't know the details of why but I don't want this for our teachers!

I think solutions exist. I think to simply say "everyone just wear PPE" is not realistic for so many of the reasons that PPs have mentioned.

I have also read that kids don't pass along the virus very well. I hope we get more clarification on that point. That might be a way to solve this. I can see a teacher wearing a face shield and social distancing far easier than I can see Kindergarteners tolerating masks and separation for any stretch of time.

Did you read the article from Nature that I posted before?

Rates of infections at my hospital have been low. Rates in my clinic, in my department, for which I am responsible for maintaining appropriate precautions, have been zero, despite the fact that the hospital keeps "accidentally" sending COVID+ patients though (story for another day). Full disclosure, there were a few people early on before we were wearing masks, in the days where we could only get tests with fever+travel to Italy or whatnot that had very suspicious symptoms. I still believe they had COVID, but never got tested. We are in a hotspot area, and my specialty is actually high on the list for becoming infected. And we haven't had anyone test positive.

PPE works! And I can't imagine that it's that much more expensive, as a society, than having people drop out of the workforce (lost tax revenue, recession) or our children falling behind in their education or all the mental health services someone will need to pay for.

[westwoodmom04]

How does it matter what the unemployment rate is if there are fewer trained teachers? The point is that there isn’t a waiting stable of new teachers clamoring for teaching jobs right now.


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Expand alternative routes to certification to enable new grads and those transitioning from other careers to teach. No special training is normally required for substitutes.

[westwoodmom04]

There seems to be a misconception here that ppe is super expensive. The problem was not cost but availability. Ppe is way more available now than it was in March because factories have had time to increase production.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Expand alternative routes to certification to enable new grads and those transitioning from other careers to teach. No special training is normally required for substitutes.

Are those the teachers you really want? Yes, it’s an idea but there are bound to be better ones.


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[bisous]

Are those the teachers you really want? Yes, it’s an idea but there are bound to be better ones.


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Exactly. And this is in response to the idea that older teachers (or teachers with medical conditions) should just quit.

[o_mom]

There seems to be a misconception here that ppe is super expensive. The problem was not cost but availability. Ppe is way more available now than it was in March because factories have had time to increase production.

It is not just PPE, but even basic supplies like hand sanitizer, soap, paper towels, etc., then the building modifications (partitions, touchless faucets and toilets, etc.) Even basic paper surgical masks for all students and staff in our district, replaced weekly would probably be over $300,000/yr. I could see the total cost being over $1 million for the year. Cuts will have to come from somewhere, and the biggest budget items are salaries and buildings. So... back to where will the schools get the money to provide a safe workplace?

I get it - we need to get back to school somehow, but it is going to take money. In some districts, it may come down to paying for technology and remote learning (which they will need to have ready to go anyway) or providing a safe workplace, but likely they cannot afford to do both without major increases in funding.

[westwoodmom04]

Do you have citations for that last paragraph? I'm kind of obsessed with following COVID news and this seems different than my perception of how things are going. I feel like there is so much information being released that synthesizing it is really challenging so I'm being sincere!


Happy to, here is a graph that shows the steep decline in deaths nationwide from covid since deaths peaked in April. https://twitter.com/covid19tracking/status/1273743246108135424?s=21

Here is a chart showing how the percentage of covid tests that is coming back as positive has decreased from a high of 20 percent to the current level of about five percent. https://covidtracking.com/

Both charts are based on cumulative data from each states public health reporting system.

In my own state of Maryland, we had a percentage of tests positive between 20 and 25 percent in mid-April, it is now done to 5 percent, with hospitalization for covid half of what it was then. https://coronavirus.maryland.gov/

[westwoodmom04]

Are those the teachers you really want? Yes, it’s an idea but there are bound to be better ones.


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Maybe, my kids have had young teachers going through their school’s teaching fellow program and they have been very good. They also have some very good student teachers when they were in public school as we live near a college with a very strong education program.

It doesn’t take four years to get someone in the classroom. Programs like Teach for America do it in a matter of months.

Would it be better for experienced teachers to go to work? Yes. But if they aren’t willing to, the alternative should not be distance learning for all. That’s been a disaster. In my state, a full third of all public school students did not participate in distance learning at all. The majority of the others got about two hours of instruction a day.

[basil]

It is not just PPE, but even basic supplies like hand sanitizer, soap, paper towels, etc., then the building modifications (partitions, touchless faucets and toilets, etc.) Even basic paper surgical masks for all students and staff in our district, replaced weekly would probably be over $300,000/yr. I could see the total cost being over $1 million for the year. Cuts will have to come from somewhere, and the biggest budget items are salaries and buildings. So... back to where will the schools get the money to provide a safe workplace?

I get it - we need to get back to school somehow, but it is going to take money. In some districts, it may come down to paying for technology and remote learning (which they will need to have ready to go anyway) or providing a safe workplace, but likely they cannot afford to do both without major increases in funding.

A paper surgical mask right now costs about $1. Up from about $0.40 pre-COVID.

So if you have ~8.3k students/staff in your district, $300k shouldn't be that much, and I'm sure there is something that could be cut in order for students to get back to school.

[doberbrat]

So if a 60 year old CNA can go change the sheets of a COVID patient in a COVID room in a COVID ward, it doesn't seem too much to ask to have a 60 year old teacher stand in front of 20 masked 3rd graders every day. We are starting to accumulate evidence that kids have a lower risk of infection, and lower propensity to spread COVID anyway. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0962-9


Have you been in an elementary classroom lately? Its not a lecture hall! Yes, there is some standing at the board and 'teaching' writing on the board etc. But MOST of the day is spent walking around, leaning over kids' desks, having them stand over your shoulder while you work with them or at a small table crowded with 6-8 kids. Its putting your hands on theirs to help them trace letters and writing on their papers as you help them work through stuff. Sharing a book with them so you and they are tracking the same word simultaneously. Getting sneezed/coughed on and tying shoelaces. The same shoelaces they chew on. (SERIOUSLY!) Hugging them good morning or goodbye or when they cry. High 5 when they finally get something right. Or a pat on the shoulder knowing they've probably wiped their noses on that sleeve. Tying MORE shoelaces.

And while its possible that they wear a mask correctly - what happens during snack time and lunch which we've already been told will be in the classroom? And given that adults are refusing to wear a mask at all never mind correctly, I doubt they're going to make sure their kids do.

And when the teacher comes down with Covid, its not so easy to get a sub for 2 weeks. We have 2-3 good subs and we share them with other schools- paras often handle most of the sub assignments which pulls them away from the kids they're supposed to be working with. We've had times where the principal & VP are subbing for a class. Having 2 teachers out because they or their families were sick or exposed could potentially force school to close.

So no, its not the same. Dont get me wrong- I WANT to be back in school and I sure as heck want my kids back but we need to be honest about what we're sending kids and staff back into and how its going to work.

[SnuggleBuggles]

A paper surgical mask right now costs about $1. Up from about $0.40 pre-COVID.

So if you have ~8.3k students/staff in your district, $300k shouldn't be that much, and I'm sure there is something that could be cut in order for students to get back to school.

What in heavens name would you cut??? Seriously. Look at their budgets. Maybe you live somewhere with a bloated budget that pays for unnecessary extras but plenty of schools are just scraping by. There isn’t $300k to cut. It’s not like they can just cut 1 Dr. like they could at your hospital to recoup that money. That’s more like 8-10 teachers...what 8-10 teachers would you cut, especially when you indicated that more teachers were needed, not fewer?


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[Globetrotter]

The other day I had a zoom call with one of my groups where one is an assistant principal and the other is a teacher. Eye-opening… In addition to everything else, what about the bathroom issue? Unfortunately our local schools are way under funded and we have cut custodial staff to a bare minimum right around the time of COVID-19. They will definitely need to get hefty federal funding or state funding for this to work out. Also agree about the realities of having 30 little kids in a classroom… It’s not like China where the children are taught to be compliant, though even they are only kids after all. In the US we have half the parents not caring about mask wearing, so imagine Working in a district like that where there will be resistance to it.
Dd’s friend will be doing teach for America the following year after graduation from college. I was wondering if there could be a push to train Recent college grads to do this. Yes it’s not ideal, but maybe they could work in conjunction with the older teachers who stay home, while the TFA folks provide the actual in person experience. I do agree there are huge risks of not sending all these kids to school for the next year.

[westwoodmom04]

What in heavens name would you cut??? Seriously. Look at their budgets. Maybe you live somewhere with a bloated budget that pays for unnecessary extras but plenty of schools are just scraping by. There isn’t $300k to cut. It’s not like they can just cut 1 Dr. like they could at your hospital to recoup that money. That’s more like 8-10 teachers...what 8-10 teachers would you cut, especially when you indicated that more teachers were needed, not fewer?


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I seriously don't understand what you are advocating for? It's the state's responsibility to provide an education for its citizens and last spring, they failed in the mission. It is particularly unacceptable because low income children are being affected the most.

My kids currently go to camp and sports practice. Most of the time they are not masked. However, every single kid has their temperature taken before being allowed to participate. It takes a second or two per kid. If kids can go to camp, they can go to school. There are ways to mitigate the risk. Similarly, day cares have been operating in my state for months for essential workers. This week, they opened for everyone.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I seriously don't understand what you are advocating for? It's the state's responsibility to provide an education for its citizens and last spring, they failed in the mission. It is particularly unacceptable because low income children are being affected the most.

My kids currently go to camp and sports practice. Most of the time they are not masked. However, every single kid has their temperature taken before being allowed to participate. It takes a second or two per kid. If kids can go to camp, they can go to school. There are ways to mitigate the risk. Similarly, day cares have been operating in my state for months for essential workers. This week, they opened for everyone.

I honestly have no idea either and glad I don’t have to decide. I want kids to go back in person but I acknowledge that there are a lot of real barriers that need to be worked through. It’s not as simple as “make it so”. Our school is poor. We had to fundraise in order to get chromebooks this spring because the state wasn’t going to allow our district to provide distance learning without it. There was no money coming from the state to assist. School funding, state budgets...I don’t pretend to know what magic pockets of money there are to enable schools to pay for or receive funds for PPE. I’m just frustrated when someone acts like paying for things is no big deal.


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[AnnieW625]

We aren't talking about burned out teachers. We're talking about older teachers. Teachers don't make a great salary and many of them need to continue to work. I don't think it is fair to say that they should quit. I think they should be able to find a way to have a safe work environment. Lots of employers aren't turning their backs on their most vulnerable employees. DH works for a big bad corporation but they've indicated that they will let their employees continue to work remotely indefinitely if needed in the wake of COVID.
.......

Have you looked to see what a teacher with 30-40 years of teaching experience makes in your district or a neighboring district makes? Teachers with that much experience and a masters in my current district make upwards of $100,000. I think the highest paid teachers make $125,000. You can look it up at: https://transparentcalifornia.com


Expand alternative routes to certification to enable new grads and those transitioning from other careers to teach. No special training is normally required for substitutes.


There seems to be a misconception here that ppe is super expensive. The problem was not cost but availability. Ppe is way more available now than it was in March because factories have had time to increase production.


Are those the teachers you really want? Yes, it’s an idea but there are bound to be better ones.

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California had to do this for a period of time in the late 90s until around 2010 due to class size reduction programs. There were emergency credentials awarded to newly graduated college seniors who were concurrently enrolled in their credential program or adults with college degrees and wanted a new career and then enrolled in credential programs. I don’t know the numbers of those whose stuck with teaching, but a family friend did this and really enjoyed the last 15 years of his career working as a teacher in an business program and ROP environment at a local high school; plus he learned he liked coaching golf. He finally retired at 72 last year. He doesn’t regret his choice of a second career at 55+. Again not everyone has that experience, but it can be positive.


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[JustMe]

There is no easy answer to this, and it feels like an impossible situation. I agree that some kids need a place to go that is safe and conducive to learning. OTOH, I believe the precautions are very necessary and, I can only speak for the schools local to me, I do not think they are going to be able to do what is necessary for financial, logistical, space, and other complicated issues.

Our school district has not done well on what I consider to be basic pre-Covid, so I have even more reason to doubt that this is possible for them. Unfortunately, I have zero trust in the integrity factor as well; which is unfortunate, but not irrational.

They are heavily leaning towards the hybrid model where some kids are in school some of the time; they seem to be allowing each school to decide what makes sense in consultation with the school district under the state education guidelines. Sounds good in theory, not sure about the reality.

As far as I can see, my kids will not be doing in school learning in the fall. I am concerned about the mental health effects, and the academic effects for ds (he learns better with others and it keeps his motivation up). Dd will likely get a better education for multiple reasons with online learning.

[carolinamama]

This post has been interesting, informative and fascinating as everyone expresses their own thoughts based on personal experience. Not sure it's worth it but I will throw mine in as well. My background is that I have 17 years experience as an ICU nurse in a tertiary care center. But I have also been a very frequent public school volunteer, PTA board member for more years than I can count and PTA president. I've always had at least 1 kid in private and 1-2 in public at any given time so I see both sides. I've advocated for school funding by marching, writing my representatives and even visiting them. I've also advocated for better safety for healthcare workers from physically and verbally violent patients. Hospitals and schools are apples and oranges.

The hospital is a relatively controlled environment, minus the ER at times, compared to a school from an infection standpoint. Things were a bit dicey at the beginning of the outbreak but we are getting a better handle on PPE and how to practice safely in healthcare. And let's be honest, there are resources to handle noncompliant patients. Not so with students. I've never really worried about contracting a virus at work (until somewhat Covid) but have repeatedly while working with elementary students.

Who will pay for the PPE? It IS super expensive when you don't even have enough money in your budget to purchase pencils and copy paper. In our state anyway, public schools funding has been stripped year after year and never recovered after the last recession. Will we expect our teachers to pay for yet another necessary supply? Just to have the best chance to stay healthy? Who will fund PPE for kids who cannot afford it? And for those thinking we can use testing and tracing for public schools - it's not simply one school of 5000 students, hundreds(??) in most states. For those stating that schools should open and supply PPE and cleaning supplies, have you contacted your representatives to ask how they are making it happen?

I heard from yet another AMAZING, young and energetic teacher yesterday that she turned in her resignation. She's going into curriculum development because she cannot continue to work so hard in the classroom, unable to give up her side job. I personally know handfuls of young teachers that have left the profession over the last 5 years for private industry jobs, where they can actually make a livable wage. It's always the top teachers too. That's before all this craziness and expecting them to go frontline during a pandemic.

And we haven't even touched on busing. At least at our magnet elementary, most kids riding buses do not have another method of transportation. We already have a shortage of bus drivers and kids are stacked in like sardines.

Our kids deserve to go to school. They deserve to receive an education, a safe place to be, a place to receive meals and snacks. I don't have answers but I do know I'm disappointed in our leadership (broadly) that it hasn't been made a bigger priority.

[Kindra178]

That was with 5 percent or less unemployment. We now have close to 20 percent unemployment. School systems should let teachers who are high risk or have high risk family members have accommodations. But let’s be real, there are no other occupations where people can refuse to come to work, and have no expectation of not losing their job.

Yes to this. I just got asked to participate in a go fund me for a kid who can’t afford art school and her mother won’t let her work cause Covid. Every restaurant and nail salon around me is hiring. Come on!

One more thing. There is a ton of data from other countries. We should not be planning this on our own.


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[o_mom]

A paper surgical mask right now costs about $1. Up from about $0.40 pre-COVID.

So if you have ~8.3k students/staff in your district, $300k shouldn't be that much, and I'm sure there is something that could be cut in order for students to get back to school.

Try 19,000 students and staff.

[KrisM]

Our district has put out that they will need to cut at least $2.5M from this coming year's budget, due to getting less from the state, unless something changes.

Masks might be $1, but pencils are about $.10 and pencils have to be donated and aren't supplied by the school or state. With cutting the budget, I'm not sure how adding in masks, partitions, etc will work. I hope they can figure it out without cutting too many things.

I would imagine things like art, music, and athletics get cut first. Who knows what else.

Our district does not have enough subs, ever. They don't have enough bus drivers really either, so many drive so that there aren't 3 high school kids in a seat. If we have to cut the kids on the bus, how will they even get kids to school?

I want mine to go back. I want teachers and the rest of the staff to be and feel safe. I am glad I'm not making these decisions.

[niccig]

Everyone advocating for a return to school needs to be calling their state and federal representatives and demand they give the necessary funding. My district has provided meals to families including adults and that plus the cost of devices is over $200 million. It’s now saying the state and feds need to reimburse them for adult meals, and school will not reopen unless there’s an increase in funding. So call and demand funding!

I work at a hospital on weekends and at school during the week. I have never ever had to buy my own PPE and cleaning supplies for the hospital. At school I have to buy everything as no cleaning supplies are given to me and my room does not get regularly cleaned. The floor gets vacuumed once a year in the summer. I take my own small vacuum during the school year. A hospital room is cleaned every day! You can not compare the 2 environments.

I’m comfortable returning to work with adequate PPE and cleaning supplies. I’ll use same cleaning protocol I do at the hospital between patients. If the school doesn’t provide adequate PPE or cleaning, I will not be returning to school. My work at the school isn’t essential to save someone’s life. I can do it remotely. In person will always be better, but the work environment has to be safe for all staff and students. Remember these students will be coming home to you and elderly relatives, so you need risks to be decreased too.

So get on the phone and demand more money if you want schools to open


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[MSWR0319]

This post has been interesting, informative and fascinating as everyone expresses their own thoughts based on personal experience. Not sure it's worth it but I will throw mine in as well. My background is that I have 17 years experience as an ICU nurse in a tertiary care center. But I have also been a very frequent public school volunteer, PTA board member for more years than I can count and PTA president. I've always had at least 1 kid in private and 1-2 in public at any given time so I see both sides. I've advocated for school funding by marching, writing my representatives and even visiting them. I've also advocated for better safety for healthcare workers from physically and verbally violent patients. Hospitals and schools are apples and oranges.

The hospital is a relatively controlled environment, minus the ER at times, compared to a school from an infection standpoint. Things were a bit dicey at the beginning of the outbreak but we are getting a better handle on PPE and how to practice safely in healthcare. And let's be honest, there are resources to handle noncompliant patients. Not so with students. I've never really worried about contracting a virus at work (until somewhat Covid) but have repeatedly while working with elementary students.

Who will pay for the PPE? It IS super expensive when you don't even have enough money in your budget to purchase pencils and copy paper. In our state anyway, public schools funding has been stripped year after year and never recovered after the last recession. Will we expect our teachers to pay for yet another necessary supply? Just to have the best chance to stay healthy? Who will fund PPE for kids who cannot afford it? And for those thinking we can use testing and tracing for public schools - it's not simply one school of 5000 students, hundreds(??) in most states. For those stating that schools should open and supply PPE and cleaning supplies, have you contacted your representatives to ask how they are making it happen?

I heard from yet another AMAZING, young and energetic teacher yesterday that she turned in her resignation. She's going into curriculum development because she cannot continue to work so hard in the classroom, unable to give up her side job. I personally know handfuls of young teachers that have left the profession over the last 5 years for private industry jobs, where they can actually make a livable wage. It's always the top teachers too. That's before all this craziness and expecting them to go frontline during a pandemic.

And we haven't even touched on busing. At least at our magnet elementary, most kids riding buses do not have another method of transportation. We already have a shortage of bus drivers and kids are stacked in like sardines.

Our kids deserve to go to school. They deserve to receive an education, a safe place to be, a place to receive meals and snacks. I don't have answers but I do know I'm disappointed in our leadership (broadly) that it hasn't been made a bigger priority.

I agree with you on all points. We also have dealt with bus driver shortages, the state cut school budgets by a large amount a few months ago, and wonderful teachers leaving for the reasons you mentioned. We aren't in a "poor" area, but people do struggle. I don't have the answer, but I do know that it's not as easy as buying PPE and finding money to do so.

[carolinamama]

everyone advocating for a return to school needs to be calling their state and federal representatives and demand they give the necessary funding. My district has provided meals to families including adults and that plus the cost of devices is over $200 million. It’s now saying the state and feds need to reimburse them for adult meals, and school will not reopen unless there’s an increase in funding. So call and demand funding!

I work at a hospital on weekends and at school during the week. I have never ever had to buy my own ppe and cleaning supplies for the hospital. At school i have to buy everything as no cleaning supplies are given to me and my room does not get regularly cleaned. The floor gets vacuumed once a year in the summer. I take my own small vacuum during the school year. A hospital room is cleaned every day! You can not compare the 2 environments.

I’ll return to work with adequate ppe. If the school doesn’t provide adequate ppe, i will not be returning to school. My work at the school isn’t essential to save someone’s life. I can do it remotely. In person will always be better, but the work environment has to be safe for all staff and students.

So get on the phone and demand more money if you want schools to open


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yes!!! Yes!!! Yes!!

[Kestrel]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

[o_mom]

I seriously don't understand what you are advocating for? It's the state's responsibility to provide an education for its citizens and last spring, they failed in the mission. It is particularly unacceptable because low income children are being affected the most.

My kids currently go to camp and sports practice. Most of the time they are not masked. However, every single kid has their temperature taken before being allowed to participate. It takes a second or two per kid. If kids can go to camp, they can go to school. There are ways to mitigate the risk. Similarly, day cares have been operating in my state for months for essential workers. This week, they opened for everyone.

The state has a responsibility to provide an education.

They also have a responsibility to provide a safe workplace.

Daily temperature checks are not even on the table here. Even at 5 seconds per kid (because there is the process of waiting, scanning, rescanning when it doesn't read, confirming if it is high, etc) , it would take 7.5 man-hours every day to do this at our high school.

Maybe if you stationed 30 people (at the 5 entrances) you could get it done in a reasonable time. Oh... And have to pay them and buy the thermometers... Again. $$$ is the barrier here.

I am all for more funding, but unfortunately I am not the one that decides that.

[niccig]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

Public schools can’t make families provide supplies. It’s ridiculous that we need to send in pencils and tissues as it is. Prioritize and fund education. Why is that such a difficult issue?

Edit: How many people know what it’s like in a low income school. I’m talking 100% free breakfast, lunch and dinner?? There is NO PTA foundation that can make up the shortfall in finding. A big day at my school is when the shoes from the grant arrive. Every kid gets a pair of shoes. So every single student has the same pair of shoes, 500 kids. My DS schools has fundraising like this but not every single student qualifies. Conditions at the school I work at are very different from the schools my son attends (I work in a different district from where I live).

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[carolinamama]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

It would create yet another example of the divide between the haves an have nots. Schools with affluent parents will have proper PPE. Schools in low-income areas will not.

[melrose7]

I am saying that I understand the risks of COVID better than most here. And the risk is low. And the risk of not going back in societal/economic/educational/mental health is enormous. And more of a risk than COVID.

Well said. Couldn’t agree more!

[DualvansMommy]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

It only works in affluent districts and towns. Like my own. Parents always donate minimum and more every year, and kids in classrooms after 1st grade get their own device. So $$ is always an issue.

What about NYC with lower income families? They can’t even afford the list right donate times 2-3 kids per family. The only way it can work is tax wealthier towns and distribute the funds to lower income towns to pay for all of that and PPE. Or even better, take military defense money and divert to education!


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[Kestrel]

We are not in an affluent area, but it doesn't stop the school from demanding a huge list of things. (67% free/reduced lunch last I checked.) Right or wrong, that's what it's like here. My point was, if the school can demand $8 for a magazine, drop the dang magazine and spend that money on masks/face shields instead.

[doberbrat]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

Our schools are very well funded in comparison to many. We had to cut 3M for next year. Having to send 30 pencils seems excessive but kids sharpen them to a nub in no time, drop them and loose them, chew on the erasers and break them for fun. In Feb, I got a case of erasers and gave each kid one in my class and put some of the others out for extras. 2 weeks later, no one had them - they break them, chew on them loose them ....

We also have PLENTY of people who cant afford supplies. Especially right now. So many people have been out of work for 3mo. I STILL havent seen a stimulus check and I'm sure I'm not alone. and 1 mask a week is silly with kids. They're going to rip them, drop them in the toilets, loose them and leave them at home.

Given the # of kids I keep seeing at the local playground (even when they were closed) I'm almost ready to say the heck with all these strategies - just cross your fingers and hope for the best and send them back to school as normal. :(

[niccig]

It would create yet another example of the divide between the haves an have nots. Schools with affluent parents will have proper PPE. Schools in low-income areas will not.

And majority of low-income areas are communities of color. These are also communities where COVID-19 is spreading due to more crowded housing (I have students who live with multiple families in a house) and adults are having to go to work as can’t work their jobs remotely. Plus more chronic health issues due to lack of health insurance

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/low-income-and-communities-of-color-at-higher-risk-of-serious-illness-if-infected-with-coronavirus/


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[niccig]

We are not in an affluent area, but it doesn't stop the school from demanding a huge list of things. (67% free/reduced lunch last I checked.) Right or wrong, that's what it's like here. My point was, if the school can demand $8 for a magazine, drop the dang magazine and spend that money on masks/face shields instead.

Try a 100% free lunch school, very different situation than 67%. There is no PTA funding. There is no money from parents to make up for lack of state and federal funding of education

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[westwoodmom04]

Try a 100% free lunch school, very different situation than 67%. There is no PTA funding


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The state is going to have to fund the ppe at title 1 schools for sure. But in more economically robust communities, parents can certainly contribute. When my kids were in public school, parents were already asked to buy paper products, soap and hand sanitizer for the classroom, among other things.

[niccig]

A paper surgical mask right now costs about $1. Up from about $0.40 pre-COVID.

So if you have ~8.3k students/staff in your district, $300k shouldn't be that much, and I'm sure there is something that could be cut in order for students to get back to school.

Try 730,000 students and 26,000 teachers. That’s a lot of PPE. I agree with you that PPE works. Schools do not have the funding right now to provide it. So get on the phone and demand funding, vote for funding!

All the teachers I know want to be back at school. We’ve hated distance learning. We can keep doing it, and we’ll get better at it, but we would rather not work remotely.

And people in the community need to wear masks too. You want life to return to normal, put on a mask when out in public to decrease outbreaks.





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[niccig]

The state is going to have to fund the ppe at title 1 schools for sure. But in more economically robust communities, parents can certainly contribute. When my kids were in public school, parents were already asked to buy paper products, soap and hand sanitizer for the classroom, among other things.

But isn’t that ridiculous requirement. Why do we accept that we have to send in soap to our kids schools?

Does anyone else work require them to buy their own soap?


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[mommytoalyssa]

Long time reader who stopped writing after I lost my login information years ago. I have to reply to this thread, however. I was a public school teacher for many years and am now teaching at a homeschool hybrid program (I will teach math two days a week if we get to meet IRL in the Fall). When I taught in public school I trained many student teachers as well. Here are my random thoughts...

I was teaching when CA implemented class sized reduction (with budget surplus from Gov. Pete Wilson). CA did not get the positive results we expected through class size reduction (my class size went from 37 students to under 20) because so many of the teachers were quickly hired and had emergency credentials. An experienced teacher can usually achieve much better results with a large class size than an unexperienced teacher with a small class size. Classroom management issues are huge and the first couple years of teaching are very stressful and difficult--even for a new teacher who has completed student teaching under great master teachers, has a degree in Education, and holds a teaching credential. Hiring a bunch of untrained teachers to begin their teaching careers during covid, without the necessary supplies and support thrown in, will be a disaster. I can guarantee this!

Our school district just learned that their state funding will be decreased by over 35 million dollars next school year! Federal funding makes up only 4% of their budget. So now they need to be ready to meet all the additional challenges covid brings with 35 million less in funds. How is this possible?

I think people would be surprised how dirty an Elementary school teacher is by the end of the day. I was fortunate to have a sink in my class room and when I would wash my hands (several times a day and with soap I brought from home) it was surprising how much grime filled the sink. The shoelace example someone else gave is so true.

Within each state, every school district is very different in their resources. I am sure these differences are magnified state to state as well. I have always had to spend a great deal of my own money to effectively teach my students.

I LOVE being a teacher and am so blessed to get to do this for a living! Teaching is so fulfilling to me and when I stopped for a few years to stay home with my own kids, I wasn't fully alive. I am super motivated to figure out how to make sure my students get what they need to grow and thrive. This current situation is very difficult and frustrating for even the most experienced, positive teacher.

I want to add that I am so grateful for all the medical workers who risk their lives to help those in need. I will never understand all you have sacrificed during this time and I am so grateful!

[AnnieW625]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

Yes to this and as a state employees both DH and I are most likely subject to some sort of furlough to balance next year’s state budget and I would be more than happy to take these furloughs if it provides the state education department with the funding it needs to give PPE to teachers so they can safely teach in the classroom.

I agree if schools send out their supply list requests soon I am sure they will get enough people donate PPE of some sort PPE to the class supply list. In the mask post last week I posted a link to Bauer Hockey who is selling face shields for $8 a piece in a pack of 10 (so 10 masks for $80 plus shipping) but I would buy those and donate. I know not everyone can afford that but if you get four families per school you will have 40 face shields. I am sure more than 4 families would donate, but if not 40 would be a good start. You can also get basic non 95 masks in packs of 10 for $8 at Target now (they look similar to the freebie masks that Kaiser gives you now if you go to urgent care or the surgery department). I am sure Walmart and Kmart now have similar ones in stock too.

My current district is somewhere around 60% free and reduced lunch and I am assuming my new school district is similar, but I do see those parents even the low income ones trying to provide what they can extra for teachers and to the PTA or education foundation.

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[basil]

Try 19,000 students and staff.

So what's the total operating budget, then? Well into the tens of millions?

Our hospital system lost $100 million in the months of March and April...$300k is a drop in the bucket.

If you stick w remote learning, how is the school going to fund the kids without devices or internet or ?? If they don't have enough to buy masks, how are they going to pay for the training so teachers can effectively teach online and the programs and the websites and ??

It seems like you all are just suggesting the complete collapse of the public school system is the only answer.

[basil]

Try 730,000 students and 26,000 teachers. That’s a lot of PPE. I agree with you that PPE works. Schools do not have the funding right now to provide it. So get on the phone and demand funding, vote for funding!

All the teachers I know want to be back at school. We’ve hated distance learning. We can keep doing it, and we’ll get better at it, but we would rather not work remotely.

And people in the community need to wear masks too. You want life to return to normal, put on a mask when out in public to decrease outbreaks.





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Agree. Protection for all and back to life.

[basil]

It would create yet another example of the divide between the haves an have nots. Schools with affluent parents will have proper PPE. Schools in low-income areas will not.

It seems like the only proposed alternative is remote school for the affluent parents and no school for low-income kids. I think that would be the biggest tragedy of the COVID era if it came to pass.

[niccig]

So what's the total operating budget, then? Well into the tens of millions?

Our hospital system lost $100 million in the months of March and April...$300k is a drop in the bucket.

If you stick w remote learning, how is the school going to fund the kids without devices or internet or ?? If they don't have enough to buy masks, how are they going to pay for the training so teachers can effectively teach online and the programs and the websites and ??

It seems like you all are just suggesting the complete collapse of the public school system is the only answer.

And my school district paid $200 million feeding the community. No one was turned away,-that includes adults without kids in school

Very good questions in how to pay for things. The district can not pay for PPE or the online programs that will be needed. And the state is saying there will be cuts to education.

How do you do more with less money? You can’t.Our superintendent said more money is needed before schools will open up.


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[PZMommy]

Try 19,000 students and staff.

My district has over 600,000 students and over 100,000 staff (teachers, aides, office workers, etc).

My district can't afford hand soap and paper towels. What makes you think they can afford PPE???

[basil]

Have you been in an elementary classroom lately? Its not a lecture hall! Yes, there is some standing at the board and 'teaching' writing on the board etc. But MOST of the day is spent walking around, leaning over kids' desks, having them stand over your shoulder while you work with them or at a small table crowded with 6-8 kids. Its putting your hands on theirs to help them trace letters and writing on their papers as you help them work through stuff. Sharing a book with them so you and they are tracking the same word simultaneously. Getting sneezed/coughed on and tying shoelaces. The same shoelaces they chew on. (SERIOUSLY!) Hugging them good morning or goodbye or when they cry. High 5 when they finally get something right. Or a pat on the shoulder knowing they've probably wiped their noses on that sleeve. Tying MORE shoelaces.

And while its possible that they wear a mask correctly - what happens during snack time and lunch which we've already been told will be in the classroom? And given that adults are refusing to wear a mask at all never mind correctly, I doubt they're going to make sure their kids do.

And when the teacher comes down with Covid, its not so easy to get a sub for 2 weeks. We have 2-3 good subs and we share them with other schools- paras often handle most of the sub assignments which pulls them away from the kids they're supposed to be working with. We've had times where the principal & VP are subbing for a class. Having 2 teachers out because they or their families were sick or exposed could potentially force school to close.

So no, its not the same. Dont get me wrong- I WANT to be back in school and I sure as heck want my kids back but we need to be honest about what we're sending kids and staff back into and how its going to work.

Sigh. Have you done a physical exam on a patient before? It's not exactly done from across the room! Especially my colleagues who see mainly kids, ~20 or so in a day + their parents...That is not a particularly controlled environment either.

I don't think the answer to "some people are jerks and can't figure out a simple face covering" is "sacrifice the education of all children". <100% compliance is better than 0.

[basil]

My district has over 600,000 students and over 100,000 staff (teachers, aides, office workers, etc).

My district can't afford hand soap and paper towels. What makes you think they can afford PPE???

What's the realistic alternative? What is the cheaper solution that still provides an actual education to those 600k students?

[PZMommy]

This may come off as snarky, I don't mean it to!

We have a list of school supplies that we, as parents, are to supply every year. I don't understand why whatever masks/face shields the school decides on can't just be included in this list, and the lists reduced because of device use. (IE - with so much being done on computer these days, do we really need 30 pencils per child?) Our district required $8 per student last year for some magazine they used. I would be more than willing to contribute something similar for masks or provide something my child will use (masks are not one size fits all). I know there are families that can't/won't, and the PTA or school donation fund will have to cover, but I think many families will if we just have a plan!

This does not, of course, stop the school districts from having to do things to support teachers/aides/staff, but I think the parents should be responsible for providing for the students. Maybe the school district can source things?

Its in the Ed Code for my state that we can't request supplies. We can put out a wish list, but that is it. The schools are supposed to fund these supplies, but guess what, they don't. As a teacher I easily spend close to $1000 the first month or two of school to provide supplies for my students and classroom. I have a master's degree, but make no where near what a previous poster listed. Those figures include insurance benefits and other things. That is not our take home pay.

I work in the same district as niccig. Our district provides free breakfast lunch, and a take home dinner to all students, because our families can't afford food. We don't have subs half the time, and our classrooms are small and over crowded. We don't have outside green space to spread kids out, and can't really do that anyways when it is 120+ degrees in August. There is no money. We don't have PTAs to raise funds, as our families have nothing to donate. If the government doesn't give us a bail out, we will not have the basic resources to go back. If the district can't provide us a safe working environment, then we will not be able to go back. My son is high risk, and I also have some risk factors. As much as my kids need to be in school, I need him to be alive! If the schools can't be somewhat safe, it is not worth the risk of returning.

[niccig]

Sigh. Have you done a physical exam on a patient before? It's not exactly done from across the room! Especially my colleagues who see mainly kids, ~20 or so in a day + their parents...That is not a particularly controlled environment either.

I don't think the answer to "some people are jerks and can't figure out a simple face covering" is "sacrifice the education of all children". <100% compliance is better than 0.

So I work in both schools and a children’s hospital.

Have you had to do a physical exam without PPE and a clean room? Do you have to buy your own cleaning supplies and PPE? No, because your employer provides it. What we’re saying is that schools as the employer do not provide soap now, we the staff have to buy our own if parents don’t donate. It’s not the same working conditions.

At the children’s hospital I don’t see large groups by myself like I do in a school. Do you have 27 kids getting a physical exam at the same time with o my one person to make sure they’re all staying safe, keeping the mask on? No you don’t you see 1 patient at a time.

It’s not the same working conditions, so it’s not comparable


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[westwoodmom04]

So I work in both schools and a children’s hospital.

Have you had to do a physical exam without PPE and a clean room? Do you have to buy your own cleaning supplies and PPE? No, because your employer provides it. What we’re saying is that schools as the employer do not provide soap now, we the staff have to buy our own if parents don’t donate. It’s not the same working conditions.

At the children’s hospital I don’t see large groups by myself like I do in a school. Do you have 27 kids getting a physical exam at the same time with o my one person to make sure they’re all staying safe, keeping the mask on? No you don’t you see 1 patient at a time.

It’s not the same working conditions, so it’s not comparable


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I think the difference is that in the hospital setting, the population is pretty high risk in terms of likelihood of being infected with covid because that's where sick people go to seek treatment. In contrast, elementary age kids that are healthy enough to attend school are among the lowest risk populations. That doesn't mean zero risk, and certainly there are other adults in the workplace, which increases risk. There needs to be risk mitigation in schools, as in all workplaces but they really aren't comparable to hospitals. We've figured out ways to get every other essential service provided, it is possible to figure out the school situation, especially since school has resumed in much of the rest of the world. If LA County found a way to get electronic devices of some type and internet access for every family, it seems they can find a way to get PPE, which is significantly cheaper.

[carolinamama]

It seems like the only proposed alternative is remote school for the affluent parents and no school for low-income kids. I think that would be the biggest tragedy of the COVID era if it came to pass.

Nope, quite the opposite actually. I want to build up our public schools to be a place of safety, security and learning for all children, especially low-income. Some of us are presenting the reality of what we have seen for years in the public school system, especially schools outside affluent neighborhoods. You and I likely have similar beliefs in that I want to see proper PPE available and mandatory for all school staff and students. I'd love to send my kids back to school, knowing we need to learn to live with Covid. It's just not that simple and I am angry that our country has allowed public schools to fall to this point.

So I ask again, have you contacted your local, state and federal representatives to demand the funding for these initiatives? I have.

[o_mom]

So what's the total operating budget, then? Well into the tens of millions?

Our hospital system lost $100 million in the months of March and April...$300k is a drop in the bucket.

If you stick w remote learning, how is the school going to fund the kids without devices or internet or ?? If they don't have enough to buy masks, how are they going to pay for the training so teachers can effectively teach online and the programs and the websites and ??

It seems like you all are just suggesting the complete collapse of the public school system is the only answer.


I think you must have missed the whole premise that $300k, is a conservative estimate for ONE item of PPE that might be needed (I was figuring 50 cents per mask, so according to you that should be $600k). Overall it will probably be over a million dollars. And yes, the operating budget is much higher, but it is mainly salaries and operational expenses like utilities. $1M would be a 60% increase in the supply budget (other than what is covered by student fees) and more than double the amount currently covered by student fees. Parents are already paying $300-$400/student in books and supply fees, so I don't think doubling that will go over well.

They will have to have the training and devices anyway, because they have already been told there is a good possibility they will have one or more extended shutdowns during the school year. There is some savings on transportation and utilities when completely virtual. Yet, at the same time, in our state if students are not in the classroom at least 50% of the time they will lose 15% of their funding on a per-student basis.

I don't know what the answer is. I think there needs to be some reality checks on both sides.

Virtual learning as-is is not working and nobody thinks that is a great long-term solution, especially for younger grades. However, teachers need a safe environment to return to the classroom, and not have their concerns dismissed.

It's also not as simple as just telling schools to buy PPE - the money has to come from somewhere.

I do think that as someone said, this is going to widen the gap between have and have not.

ETA: I know many people have commented on the need for social interaction as a reason we need school to resume, but the guidelines I am seeing are not looking like there will be much social interaction at all. Desks 6 ft apart, staying in the same room all day, compliance with the no touching/huddling/gathering rules - this will not be school as we know it. I think there will be kids that have a very, very hard time with that, more than with virtual education.

[niccig]

I think the difference is that in the hospital setting, the population is pretty high risk in terms of likelihood of being infected with covid because that's where sick people go to seek treatment. In contrast, elementary age kids that are healthy enough to attend school are among the lowest risk populations. That doesn't mean zero risk, and certainly there are other adults in the workplace, which increases risk. There needs to be risk mitigation in schools, as in all workplaces but they really aren't comparable to hospitals. We've figured out ways to get every other essential service provided, it is possible to figure out the school situation, especially since school has resumed in much of the rest of the world. If LA County found a way to get electronic devices of some type and internet access for every family, it seems they can find a way to get PPE, which is significantly cheaper.

Yes we can figure out the school situation. Everyone wants kids either back in school or robust online learning, including teachers. The issue is that it will take money and no one wants to pony it up.

And not every student in LA got a device and internet access. We tried, my principal worked so hard, but still about a 1/4 of my students did not have reliable access to a device or internet. And the free internet by Verizon etc was only if you signed up for a very expensive plan that started once the free months were over. My families couldn’t afford it. These are families with 3 families in one house, kids don’t have a bed, they get 3 meals a day from school. This is reality for many families.


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[niccig]

Nope, quite the opposite actually. I want to build up our public schools to be a place of safety, security and learning for all children, especially low-income. Some of us are presenting the reality of what we have seen for years in the public school system, especially schools outside affluent neighborhoods. You and I likely have similar beliefs in that I want to see proper PPE available and mandatory for all school staff and students. I'd love to send my kids back to school, knowing we need to learn to live with Covid. It's just not that simple and I am angry that our country has allowed public schools to fall to this point.

So I ask again, have you contacted your local, state and federal representatives to demand the funding for these initiatives? I have.

Yes, how many people here have contacted local/state/federal representatives demand funding so schools can reopen?


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[Kindra178]

Another example of where state’s rights folks have screwed children! We need a federal response to this. The federal government won’t be buying masks at $2/pop. They will be buying millions of masks and will be be able to send thousands of boxes to schools. Not all la county schools are poor. Some are not. And California needs to revamp their education code. All their money goes into the university system.


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[jgenie]

ETA: I know many people have commented on the need for social interaction as a reason we need school to resume, but the guidelines I am seeing are not looking like there will be much social interaction at all. Desks 6 ft apart, staying in the same room all day, compliance with the no touching/huddling/gathering rules - this will not be school as we know it. I think there will be kids that have a very, very hard time with that, more than with virtual education.

This is what worries me. How much teaching will actually take place when teachers will spend so much time enforcing the rules. Fixing masks, monitoring distance between children, reminding children not to touch each other, etc. How much patience will those teachers have after being in the classroom for hours uncomfortable because of the mask they’re wearing? How tired will they be of telling children to stop touching each other. I want kids to go back to school but what will happen to their sense of self if they are constantly being corrected on how they’re mask fits, how close they are to their people, etc.

[o_mom]

This is what worries me. How much teaching will actually take place when teachers will spend so much time enforcing the rules. Fixing masks, monitoring distance between children, reminding children not to touch each other, etc. How much patience will those teachers have after being in the classroom for hours uncomfortable because of the mask they’re wearing? How tired will they be of telling children to stop touching each other. I want kids to go back to school but what will happen to their sense of self if they are constantly being corrected on how they’re mask fits, how close they are to their people, etc.

Not to mention the mask-shaming/bullying that I am sure will go on here.

[Kindra178]

I don’t think kids should have to wear masks, below middle school. Teachers can wear face masks, which can be made by many high schools and colleges with 3D printers. The research seems to support kid transmission isn’t happening. Earlier in this we were thinking that they were vectors. That theory has been abandoned.


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[PZMommy]

I don’t think kids should have to wear masks, below middle school. Teachers can wear face masks, which can be made by many high schools and colleges with 3D printers. The research seems to support kid transmission isn’t happening. Earlier in this we were thinking that they were vectors. That theory has been abandoned.


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Then why did 9 out of 11 students in a classroom in Montreal get sick and test positive.

Many schools that reopened in other parts of the world have had to close again. Montreal, S Korea, China, and Israel have closed schools again and their numbers are lower than what we have here in the US.

[bisous]

Where can we find a good article about schools in other countries? I’m still salivating for more COVID research but I feel like most are weary of it!

[AnnieW625]

Another example of where state’s rights folks have screwed children! We need a federal response to this. The federal government won’t be buying masks at $2/pop. They will be buying millions of masks and will be be able to send thousands of boxes to schools. Not all la county schools are poor. Some are not. And California needs to revamp their education code. All their money goes into the university system.


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Yep. Agree 100%. A California university education still costs about 10k-15k a year especially if the student lives at home. It is a damn good value for what education you get, but yes if the funding for education was flip flopped from higher to k-12 education we may not be having this conversation about underfunded schools. Prop 13 also killed the funding for public schools, but if it was reversed now I am guessing that 85% of the states homeowners would have to declare bankruptcy because their property tax rate of more than 2% would bankrupt them because they could no longer afford their property.

ETA: the teacher I looked up (Dd2’s teacher had a base salary of $125k and the full value of the benefit package was $165k....she has a masters and has been teaching since the late 80s, I believe.


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[lurksalot]

I am a lurker who feels compelled to chime in. I work in one of the poorest districts in CA, and our budget is already in great peril. I feel like this thread is shining a bright light on the inequities throughout the US. Our poorest communities live in high-density poor neighborhoods, work in high-risk jobs, are paid minimum wage, lack adequate health care, etc (these are also our minority black and brown communities). They are losing money by going to work at their minimum wage jobs since now they have to find and pay for childcare. This also means they are not available to support their children with remote emergency teaching. Now they are being told to just hold some fundraisers to help make sure their children can stay safe at school, it only it were this simple.

We also ask them to make sure our grocery stores stay open, our gas statons are staffed, our hospitals are cleaned, our produce is harvested, yet we are not willing to adequately fund a high-quality, safe education for their children or provide them with affordable healthcare or affordable housing, ugh. Now we are adding to this list of essential workers, by insisting teachers return or quit. Teachers are also a marginalized, underpaid group in our country. Let's rely on them to help get our economy running again so our privileged minority can keep making more money.

It seems that everyone can agree that we all want to go back to school full time. It also seems that the affluent public, private and charter schools will be able to accomplish this. This furthers exacerbates the inequities.

I think we all also agree that the answer is funding. Yes, districts have large budgets, the vast majority of which goes towards salaries and benefits the margin for unexpected emergency spending is minuscule. The federal government must step up and send financial resources to our states. Most people are willing to accept working hard to make a living, but most people are not making a living. We are asking the majority to keep our country afloat without any regard to their health and safety. Their backs are already breaking.

Okay, rant over. Back to lurking

[PZMommy]

Yep. Agree 100%. A California university education still costs about 10k-15k a year especially if the student lives at home. It is a damn good value for what education you get, but yes if the funding for education was flip flopped from higher to k-12 education we may not be having this conversation about underfunded schools. Prop 13 also killed the funding for public schools, but if it was reversed now I am guessing that 85% of the states homeowners would have to declare bankruptcy because their property tax rate of more than 2% would bankrupt them because they could no longer afford their property.

ETA: the teacher I looked up (Dd2’s teacher had a base salary of $125k and the full value of the benefit package was $165k....she has a masters and has been teaching since the late 80s, I believe.


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Wow! My DH has his PhD and has topped out on the pay scale and doesn’t even come close to 100K in our district. After teaching 15 years, you only get a small increase (a few hundred dollars) every 5 years. Our district is quite low compared to many others in the state.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Wow! My DH has his PhD and has topped out on the pay scale and doesn’t even come close to 100K in our district. After teaching 15 years, you only get a small increase (a few hundred dollars) every 5 years. Our district is quite low compared to many others in the state.

Knowing he/ you could make more elsewhere, what keeps you where you are? From your posts, you seem so frustrated with your district. Lower COL, higher pay... I’d move [emoji4]


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[Kindra178]

20 year teachers absolutely make 100k here, high school districts higher. Huge jumps in last couple years, providing sizable pensions (retiring at $140-150).I am encouraging ds1 who wants to coach to be a teacher. I am not complaining.

We pay super high property taxes and even in 25 percent low income districts there’s 1 to 1 tech.




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[PZMommy]

Knowing he/ you could make more elsewhere, what keeps you where you are? From your posts, you seem so frustrated with your district. Lower COL, higher pay... I’d move [emoji4]


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Where would we move to??? We are tied to California due to my husbands family and other districts that pay more we would never even be able to afford to purchase even a modest house. I’d love to leave California, but my husband refuses to leave and then we both have the issue of having to get new credentials and would lose all of our seniority. I wish it was as simple as just moving. I love the students I teach. The budget issues are state wide.

[PZMommy]

Back when health care workers needed PPE, all sorts of organizations and celebs stepped up to bring attention to the issue and start go fund mes to help them get proper PPE.

Teachers beg for supplies and assistance, but we are largely ignored because those same celebs send their kids to private schools and have no clue what a real public school looks like. This past year my city had a prop on the ballot that would require corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and that money would help schools. Just like every other prop that gets on the ballot to help schools, it failed. Everyone says public schools need more funding, but then never vote to give us that funding.

[niccig]

Back when health care workers needed PPE, all sorts of organizations and celebs stepped up to bring attention to the issue and start go fund mes to help them get proper PPE.

Teachers beg for supplies and assistance, but we are largely ignored because those same celebs send their kids to private schools and have no clue what a real public school looks like. This past year my city had a prop on the ballot that would require corporations to pay their fair share of taxes and that money would help schools. Just like every other prop that gets on the ballot to help schools, it failed. Everyone says public schools need more funding, but then never vote to give us that funding.

Exactly! I asked earlier and didn’t see a reply, so I’ll ask again:

Who here buys their own tissues, soap, wipes, copy paper, and pencils to use at work rather than be provided by your employer as necessary to do your job ?

Anyone other than teachers?


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[bcafe]

20 year teachers absolutely make 100k here, high school districts higher. Huge jumps in last couple years, providing sizable pensions (retiring at $140-150).I am encouraging ds1 who wants to coach to be a teacher. I am not complaining. Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87652)
Wisconsin pays their teachers well also.

[lurksalot]

You could move to Sacramento, much cheaper cost of living than LA.

[Kestrel]

I am out of work at the moment, but when I left my last job (of ten years) in a modest-sized casino, I didn't buy copy paper, but did buy my own pens, notepads, tissues, clorox wipes, ect. I also brought my own hand soap, but that was because what they used I had a reaction to.

[Green_Tea]

I am out of work at the moment, but when I left my last job (of ten years) in a modest-sized casino, I didn't buy copy paper, but did buy my own pens, notepads, tissues, clorox wipes, ect. I also brought my own hand soap, but that was because what they used I had a reaction to.

But did you have to supply those things for other people as well? I’m not buying tissues and paper towels and snacks for my own personal use. I’m buying them in bulk them for a class of 21 students. And I *do* live in a pretty high performing area. There’s still not money in the budget for these things. I don’t make anywhere close to $100K a year (though I did start my teaching career a little later in my life) and I have two masters degrees. My job is a labor of love and the only reason I can do it is because I have a husband with a higher income.

I want nothing more than to go back to school and be with my students. But I don’t think teachers are unreasonable to ask what the plan is if other teachers get sick or there aren’t enough masks or they can’t play by the rules the state establishes. Right now there is literally no plan for some of these things. I don’t hear a lot of teachers saying they don’t want to go back. We just need a lot more information about HOW.

[Kindra178]

Exactly! I asked earlier and didn’t see a reply, so I’ll ask again:

Who here buys their own tissues, soap, wipes, copy paper, and pencils to use at work rather than be provided by your employer as necessary to do your job ?
K you
Anyone other than teachers?


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I live in a higher income district where people pay too much property tax. Notwithstanding, we pay school fees of almost 400 per kid in k8 and high school is 550 per kid. K8 school supply lists include three boxes of tissues, rolls of paper towels and sanitizing wipes, hand soap and sanitizer in addition to the usual supplies. Put another way, parents are supplying tissues and paper towels and soap to classrooms.

I think this is a California thing.

One more thing. My office is requiring face masks but not supplying them. I think districts should provide them for teachers.

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[niccig]

I am a lurker who feels compelled to chime in. I work in one of the poorest districts in CA, and our budget is already in great peril. I feel like this thread is shining a bright light on the inequities throughout the US. Our poorest communities live in high-density poor neighborhoods, work in high-risk jobs, are paid minimum wage, lack adequate health care, etc (these are also our minority black and brown communities). They are losing money by going to work at their minimum wage jobs since now they have to find and pay for childcare. This also means they are not available to support their children with remote emergency teaching. Now they are being told to just hold some fundraisers to help make sure their children can stay safe at school, it only it were this simple.

We also ask them to make sure our grocery stores stay open, our gas statons are staffed, our hospitals are cleaned, our produce is harvested, yet we are not willing to adequately fund a high-quality, safe education for their children or provide them with affordable healthcare or affordable housing, ugh. Now we are adding to this list of essential workers, by insisting teachers return or quit. Teachers are also a marginalized, underpaid group in our country. Let's rely on them to help get our economy running again so our privileged minority can keep making more money.

It seems that everyone can agree that we all want to go back to school full time. It also seems that the affluent public, private and charter schools will be able to accomplish this. This furthers exacerbates the inequities.

I think we all also agree that the answer is funding. Yes, districts have large budgets, the vast majority of which goes towards salaries and benefits the margin for unexpected emergency spending is minuscule. The federal government must step up and send financial resources to our states. Most people are willing to accept working hard to make a living, but most people are not making a living. We are asking the majority to keep our country afloat without any regard to their health and safety. Their backs are already breaking.

Okay, rant over. Back to lurking

Rant away. Equality needs to extend to the classroom as well


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[mom2binsd]

This is what worries me. How much teaching will actually take place when teachers will spend so much time enforcing the rules. Fixing masks, monitoring distance between children, reminding children not to touch each other, etc. How much patience will those teachers have after being in the classroom for hours uncomfortable because of the mask they’re wearing? How tired will they be of telling children to stop touching each other. I want kids to go back to school but what will happen to their sense of self if they are constantly being corrected on how they’re mask fits, how close they are to their people, etc.I've worked in schools, that is just not realistic. I just hope that the virus proves to be under control/not transmitted via kids as some have surmised. I just can't imagine kids being able to follow all those rules and how much teachers can teach in that environment.

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[mom2binsd]

Recently I have been buying my own masks, Clorox wipes and my coworkers (therapy dept in a nursing home) do the same, we just buy when we see a box of masks at Walgreens, Clorox at tbe grocery store etc. We also buy our own materials to do crafts and i buy apps for my iPad for therapy activities. I'm a SLP.

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[DualvansMommy]

This is where I have always said education should fall under the federal, not states. My state is one of the highest property states and it shows in our education funding. Parents just supply the classrooms boxes of tissues, Clorox wipes, and hand sanitizer. Pencils, folders, papers, books etc are supplied by the school districts in my kids district.

I agree with comments that when it comes to employers, teachers is one of the only I know that are being asked to pay for their own PPE, and my small non profit employer is supplying us with masks & cleaning supplies when we return this fall. Until the playing field is level all across employees, teachers have a right to be concerned and ask for those basic supplies to protect themselves. Even in Newark and Camden school districts, our biggest and poorest districts in the state are going to supply teachers with PPE, is what I’m hearing from people.

California is very unique in their makeup. One of the most expensive states in the country with tons of million dollars value homes by celebrities, so what the state should do tax those towns. But it’s not happening due to prop 13, which hurts alto of the middle classes and poorer districts. Ds1 teacher, 5 years out fo her Master’s is earning near 80K as a late 20 something person, so we pay our teachers a real living wage. The desire and demand is there in our state for teachers to work and plenty of subs too. I think education should be more or less in uniform all across states. Not have so many different variables.


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[gymnbomb]

I live in a higher income district where people pay too much property tax. Notwithstanding, we pay school fees of almost 400 per kid in k8 and high school is 550 per kid. K8 school supply lists include three boxes of tissues, rolls of paper towels and sanitizing wipes, hand soap and sanitizer in addition to the usual supplies. Put another way, parents are supplying tissues and paper towels and soap to classrooms.

I think this is a California thing.

One more thing. My office is requiring face masks but not supplying them. I think districts should provide them for teachers.

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Not just a California thing. I am in New England and parents also supply Kleenex, hand sanitizer, and disinfecting wipes. We are not asked for soap or paper towels, but I am sure that is only because there are not sinks in the classrooms. The school provides pencils and copy paper, but nothing else. The teachers post on Donors Choose when they need something else. I contributed to two supply requests from my son’s kindergarten teacher (my parents also contributed a lot to one of the) and one from the music teacher this year.

My employer is theoretically providing masks for employees who do not have them, but their supply was very limited and wiped out almost immediately.


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[Kindra178]

Not just a California thing. I am in New England and parents also supply Kleenex, hand sanitizer, and disinfecting wipes. We are not asked for soap or paper towels, but I am sure that is only because there are not sinks in the classrooms. The school provides pencils and copy paper, but nothing else. The teachers post on Donors Choose when they need something else. I contributed to two supply requests from my son’s kindergarten teacher (my parents also contributed a lot to one of the) and one from the music teacher this year.

My employer is theoretically providing masks for employees who do not have them, but their supply was very limited and wiped out almost immediately.


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Sorry, I meant to say it’s a California thing where parents are not allowed to buy classroom products, where the rest of the country does so. It appears to put an undo burden on teachers.


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[gymnbomb]

Sorry, I meant to say it’s a California thing where parents are not allowed to buy classroom products, where the rest of the country does so. It appears to put an undo burden on teachers.


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Ahh, I see! Here they are allowed to request supplies, but are not allowed to ask for money for field trips.


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[bisous]

Sorry, I meant to say it’s a California thing where parents are not allowed to buy classroom products, where the rest of the country does so. It appears to put an undo burden on teachers.


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I'm interested in this. My understanding is that California cannot ask for these things but they DO ask for these things (and get them!) in the districts that I've been a part of. Niccig and PZMommy are in a huge nearby district--one that's probably been sued. I've heard it explained that public education should be free to all kids. If there are costs then it isn't free! My mom used this statute in the 90s to challenge the bus fee for my sister who was a swimmer that drove herself to meets and she didn't have to pay. I don't know that it is just a CA policy. It just might be more widely followed here. All the other districts I think know on some level that they aren't allowed to ask for the extra stuff, but nobody has sued them yet. Also, there is no enforcement. So it generally works that they ask, most people bring and everyone else is covered to some extent.

I actually think a lot of policy at schools is against various statutes and laws but if it doesn't get challenged, legally challenged, then it isn't observed. I'm basing this on the really lax following of federal law that I experienced when DS1 was a young child with diabetes in the classroom. He was part of FOUR different local school districts and their level of observance of the law was directly tied to how severe the law suits against them had been, no lie. In my current city, the school district was willfully ignorant of several specific statutes and although I could give them literature that expressed where they were violating the law until I CC'ed Georgiegirl's stepmom--a prominent education lawyer in my community--they did nothing to address the problem. Once I put her name on my email I had change within like an hour. I'm not even kidding. I had a board member (who I had contacted before!) email me within minutes when I'd been trying to rectify the problem for months.

Many of these policies and statutes are to address the needs of poor, disabled, second language learning students. That same population is rarely able to challenge the rules in a way that makes a difference.

So I'm wondering if the law exists in the rest of the country--but there hasn't been enough challenge to the rule.

[bisous]

Regarding funding, I know our school is worried because of budget shortfalls. Money has been approved to help schools but (I need to look it up) 90% are going to Title 1 schools. This is a good thing but it won't help our school. It will help Niccig and PZMommy's schools and it should. I hope it will allow them to get what they need to operate next year.

Our school will be ok. We have huge parent involvement and good fundraising. It is one single school and it is very innovative and flexible.

I'm hoping that people will be willing to be collaborative and self-sacrificing. I don't see a lot of that right now. Right now it feels very tribal with everyone advocating only for their own POV. I think we'll figure it out.

[westwoodmom04]

When I work on for the state as an attorney, I had to provide my own supplies. I think it is not uncommon in public sector employment below the federal level.

[Kindra178]

We pay for field trips, school fees and all supplies. Supplies include wipes, paper towels, tissues and pencils, etc. This is common in Illinois and New Jersey. There is not a federal law on this. School funding is local.


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[bisous]

We pay for field trips, school fees and all supplies. Supplies include wipes, paper towels, tissues and pencils, etc. This is common in Illinois and New Jersey. There is not a federal law on this. School funding is local.


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I’m not an expert but I think you’re wrong. I know when my mom challenged it she did so under the concept of FAPE which is an educational entitlement allowing all children a Free and Appropriate Public Education. The infallible source of Wikipedia confirms this is a federal thing. I don’t see how state or local laws supercede this.

ETA: Again, to reiterate I think schools get around this because nobody challenges them. I pay for supplies, field trips, etc for my kids even though I know I don’t have to but I can so I do!

[AnnieW625]

This is where I have always said education should fall under the federal, not states. My state is one of the highest property states and it shows in our education funding. Parents just supply the classrooms boxes of tissues, Clorox wipes, and hand sanitizer. Pencils, folders, papers, books etc are supplied by the school districts in my kids district.

I agree with comments that when it comes to employers, teachers is one of the only I know that are being asked to pay for their own PPE, and my small non profit employer is supplying us with masks & cleaning supplies when we return this fall. Until the playing field is level all across employees, teachers have a right to be concerned and ask for those basic supplies to protect themselves. Even in Newark and Camden school districts, our biggest and poorest districts in the state are going to supply teachers with PPE, is what I’m hearing from people.

California is very unique in their makeup. One of the most expensive states in the country with tons of million dollars value homes by celebrities, so what the state should do tax those towns. But it’s not happening due to prop 13, which hurts alto of the middle classes and poorer districts. Ds1 teacher, 5 years out fo her Master’s is earning near 80K as a late 20 something person, so we pay our teachers a real living wage. The desire and demand is there in our state for teachers to work and plenty of subs too. I think education should be more or less in uniform all across states. Not have so many different variables.


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New Jersey has a population of 8 million people, Los Angeles County has a county of 10 million people on it’s own. I don’t know how comparable that really is. 5 New Jersey’s equal the state of California.

Like I have said before prop 13 messed things up and reversing it now would do a lot of harm. We do have a thing called Mello Roos, which are property tax assessments, but the cap on all taxes is still 2%. Funny thing though in some areas with Mello Roos the school scores are similar to areas to the schools that don’t have Mello Roos. There are plenty of districts though who don’t have problems with paying teachers and there are still plenty of places in California where a family of four or even six can move and have a good paying salary and own a home. My current district pays well and two teachers with 20+ years of teaching could easily afford a $600k house in my area; they would make $250k combined if they both had advanced degrees and 20+ years of teaching; that is more than DH and I make. My sister is going into her 10th year of teaching and she has a masters degree and she will make about $70k not including benefits. My sister switched districts in 2017 and her years of teaching went with her. She did have to teach for two years to gain tenure, but she said it was the right move for her. She says she can’t buy a home on her own though, but I think she is being overly conservative there, but I guess it is good that she is being conservative on that front. She lives in a medium COL city near Sacramento and has a 5 minute commute to work. It isn’t Los Angeles , but it is nice there and your money goes a lot further there. In general I think LA Unified is just way behind the times in regards to teacher pay, which makes it hard for those starting out and then a lot of teachers leave the district because they find better pay elsewhere in the region.

Also for what it is worth I have been with my employer for 20 years and last year was the first year I made $80k. I don’t have a masters degree, but a masters degree wouldn’t give me a big salary bump in what I do because that doesn’t happen in journey level positions within state government. Living in a high to very COL is tough for anyone with a typical middle class income.

I buy my own office supplies, Clorox wipes, and mouse pads because in the past it has just been easier. It is a few bucks out of my pocket to have access to the ones I really like. My employer is pretty tight with office supplies and it was a pain to get them, but it would be an option if you didn’t want to get your own supplies.

ETA: we had a school supply list last year and I think I spent about $80 for DD2. I honestly don’t remember exactly, but I don’t have an issue paying for school supplies. I have always had to pay for school supplies for DD1 as well. I didn’t have to pay for any field trips for DD2 for the past two years as her school had a very well funded pta, but not something I wouldn’t pay for if they didn’t. Way back when in the 80s and 90s when I was in school we had to fundraiser for field trips or pay a flat fee for field trips. My parents were always somehow able to pay or participate in the fundraiser or pay the flat fee, but the fundraiser always made it so everyone could go. I don’t recall having to provide more than notebooks and pencils/pens/erasers for most of school. The elementary school did occasionally ask for computer paper so my dad would donate that from his work because his work only ever used the lined side and the teachers wanted the blank side for the classroom.

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[MSWR0319]

I’m not an expert but I think you’re wrong. I know when my mom challenged it she did so under the concept of FAPE which is an educational entitlement allowing all children a Free and Appropriate Public Education. The infallible source of Wikipedia confirms this is a federal thing. I don’t see how state or local laws supercede this.

ETA: Again, to reiterate I think schools get around this because nobody challenges them. I pay for supplies, field trips, etc for my kids even though I know I don’t have to but I can so I do!

I could also be wrong, as I’ve only read through the FAPE sections that apply to us, but my understanding is that FAPE gives those with disabilities accommodations free so that they are at an equal playing field as those without disabilities. My son has a 504 for severe food allergies. They have to give him accommodations to allow him to be able to learn equally to his classmates. One of his accommodations is that students will wash or wipe hands before entering his classroom. The school has to pay for those wipes. I didn’t think it meant that the entire school was entitled to free everything, but again I could be wrong because I’ve never read the entire thing (but now I might just out of curiosity!).

Our school charges the YMCA a few to bus kids to the Y, even though it’s closer than where they bus kids to for town drop off.

We are in OH and pay school fees, have an entire supply list which includes a variety (ziploc bags, wipes, hand sanitizer, pencils, glue, etc), pay for field trip fees, etc. They will ask for fees if you don’t pay them but I don’t know if they pursue it after that. I do know that the PTO and other funds in our town help to pay for those that say they can’t pay. Now, I have no idea if it’s legal, but I would think it has to be legal to at least ask or they wouldn’t be doing it.

[bisous]

I could also be wrong, as I’ve only read through the FAPE sections that apply to us, but my understanding is that FAPE gives those with disabilities accommodations free so that they are at an equal playing field as those without disabilities. My son has a 504 for severe food allergies. They have to give him accommodations to allow him to be able to learn equally to his classmates. One of his accommodations is that students will wash or wipe hands before entering his classroom. The school has to pay for those wipes. I didn’t think it meant that the entire school was entitled to free everything, but again I could be wrong because I’ve never read the entire thing (but now I might just out of curiosity!).

Our school charges the YMCA a few to bus kids to the Y, even though it’s closer than where they bus kids to for town drop off.

We are in OH and pay school fees, have an entire supply list which includes a variety (ziploc bags, wipes, hand sanitizer, pencils, glue, etc), pay for field trip fees, etc. They will ask for fees if you don’t pay them but I don’t know if they pursue it after that. I do know that the PTO and other funds in our town help to pay for those that say they can’t pay. Now, I have no idea if it’s legal, but I would think it has to be legal to at least ask or they wouldn’t be doing it.

Out of curiosity what happens if parents just don’t pay? Are kids not allowed in school? Or on the bus? I wonder if they are as required as everyone believes they are....

[lurksalot]

Regarding funding, I know our school is worried because of budget shortfalls. Money has been approved to help schools but (I need to look it up) 90% are going to Title 1 schools. This is a good thing but it won't help our school. It will help Niccig and PZMommy's schools and it should. I hope it will allow them to get what they need to operate next year.

Our school will be ok. We have huge parent involvement and good fundraising. It is one single school and it is very innovative and flexible.

I'm hoping that people will be willing to be collaborative and self-sacrificing. I don't see a lot of that right now. Right now it feels very tribal with everyone advocating only for their own POV. I think we'll figure it out.

We are a parent participation school too, but I am thinking we will not be allowed to have any parents (grandparents, aunties, older brothers, etc) on campus next year. This will be really difficult as we usually have between 50-75 volunteers on campus every day. We receive very little funding because our school is high performing (which makes sense) so we rely very much on our community resources. Next year is going to be tough. I am also concerned about fundraising, espeically if we are 100% DL.

[Kindra178]

It’s a California thing.


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[PZMommy]

I buy supplies for my class. I have a class of 24-27 depending on the year. I’m given just enough pencils and crayons for each child to have one. Anyone who has worked with 5 year olds knows that crayons will not last all year and pencils disappear. So I purchase extras at the start of the year to change out after winter break. I’m given 12 scissors, and 12 glue sticks (to last all year!). I bought scissors years ago that I wash and reuse every year. I stock up on glue sticks when they go on sale, and also need to purchase homework folders, folders for in class use, and notebooks for my students to use, as we are not given any of that stuff. I also buy markers, but can usually get those to last about 2 years. I’ve spent a small fortune buying manipulatives to use for math, as the school doesn’t supply that kind of stuff, but the math curriculum assumes you have them. I’m grateful for my wonderful Staples manager who alerts me to when each item is going on sale, and ignores the “limit of 10” that he is supposed to follow. He says it is the least he can do to help out teachers. I’ve spent years building up my classroom library, and since I’ve had to switch grades, I have an upper grade library and my younger grade library. Easily several thousand dollars, but again, built up over years. Not to mention any decor you see in the classroom or any of the “fun” stuff kids can do during centers or free time. If most parents saw what we are given to work with vs what we supply ourselves they would be shocked. I love teaching and I love my students, but it is quite frustrating to have to spend so much money just to do my job properly. Now people expect us to put our lives and our families lives on the line to educate their kids and not provide us with proper equipment to keep us safe. So yes, teachers are going to take a stand. We went into teaching knowing we wouldn’t make much money, and would spend a ton of money out of pocket, but we never signed up for teaching in the middle of a pandemic without proper safety equipment and protocols.

[AnnieW625]

I buy supplies for my class. I have a class of 24-27 depending on the year. I’m given just enough pencils and crayons for each child to have one. Anyone who has worked with 5 year olds knows that crayons will not last all year and pencils disappear. So I purchase extras at the start of the year to change out after winter break. I’m given 12 scissors, and 12 glue sticks (to last all year!). I bought scissors years ago that I wash and reuse every year. I stock up on glue sticks when they go on sale, and also need to purchase homework folders, folders for in class use, and notebooks for my students to use, as we are not given any of that stuff. I also buy markers, but can usually get those to last about 2 years. I’ve spent a small fortune buying manipulatives to use for math, as the school doesn’t supply that kind of stuff, but the math curriculum assumes you have them. I’m grateful for my wonderful Staples manager who alerts me to when each item is going on sale, and ignores the “limit of 10” that he is supposed to follow. He says it is the least he can do to help out teachers. I’ve spent years building up my classroom library, and since I’ve had to switch grades, I have an upper grade library and my younger grade library. Easily several thousand dollars, but again, built up over years. Not to mention any decor you see in the classroom or any of the “fun” stuff kids can do during centers or free time. If most parents saw what we are given to work with vs what we supply ourselves they would be shocked. I love teaching and I love my students, but it is quite frustrating to have to spend so much money just to do my job properly. Now people expect us to put our lives and our families lives on the line to educate their kids and not provide us with proper equipment to keep us safe. So yes, teachers are going to take a stand. We went into teaching knowing we wouldn’t make much money, and would spend a ton of money out of pocket, but we never signed up for teaching in the middle of a pandemic without proper safety equipment and protocols.

My sister does the same and always has even when she barely made ends meet the first two years she taught. She has always taught middle school or high school so sightless less supplies than elementary, but still a significant portion of her income every couple of years when she has to buy a whole new set of stuff. I think knowing a teacher personally is why I don’t have a single issue buying school supplies.


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[o_mom]

Out of curiosity what happens if parents just don’t pay? Are kids not allowed in school? Or on the bus? I wonder if they are as required as everyone believes they are....


Here they send you to collections for unpaid fees.

[bisous]

Here they send you to collections for unpaid fees.

No way!!! I had no idea!

For the record, I don’t think not charging kids is what bankrupted CA schools. I’m pretty sure it’s attributed to Prop 13. I really don’t love the direct democracy of our ballot propositions!

[Kestrel]

I seems so different where I am. But I'm starting to wonder how much the teachers are keeping the parents in ignorance about how much the teachers supply their own items.

We do have a huge list of school supplies we are to send to school with each kid, and then at Christmas break get a request for those things that need to be restocked. The vast majority of parents supply the initial pack, but the mid-year things are supplied by those families that can afford to help. We also ask the teacher to write us directly if they need things - though we are by no means wealthy (I've never made $30k year, ever), we are better off than most in our area. And I'm a super bargain shopper! The teachers also have a donation set up in the book fair for cash/donation and for flat-out book donations. Since we can, we also budget for two gift cards for our teacher - one personal for them and one for adding to the classroom.
At our school, the PTA has both fundraisers and community business donations that pay school supply lists for those that cannot afford them and pays field trip fees for all.

I didn't see this discussed here, but I'm concerned for our bus drivers as well. Most here are retired from other jobs and seniors.

[Kindra178]

Pz that’s horrible! There is no doubt teachers here buy stuff for their classrooms but they are initially stocked with stuff. Also, our pto gives teachers $100 grants, no questions asked, to offset teacher personal purchases.


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[Kindra178]

One last thing - I’m listening to a local podcast and a pediatrician said

1. We should go back to school, full time. Doing every other day is worthless because on those off days kids will mix with other kids, exposing additional cohorts.

2. Temp checks every day are worthless.

3. Hand sanitizer upon arrival.

4. Lunch in classrooms.

5. Kids younger than middle shouldn’t wear masks all day.

6. Limit passing periods, stagger start times.

7. Kids well being requires that they learn in school from academic and social emotional.

Taiwan and Denmark are the examples she’s using.


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[PZMommy]

One last thing - I’m listening to a local podcast and a pediatrician said

1. We should go back to school, full time.

2. Temp checks every day are worthless.

3. Hand sanitizer upon arrival.

4. Lunch in classrooms.

5. Kids younger than middle shouldn’t wear masks all day.

Taiwan and Denmark are the examples she’s using.


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But what about the 4 countries that went back with safety precautions and still had outbreaks and needed to close again? I know our superintendent was looking at Israel’s model, but then Israel had problems and had to close, so their hybrid model didn’t work out so well. Different doctors are using different countries to support their opinions. At this point it is a gamble.

[Kindra178]

But what about the 4 countries that went back with safety precautions and still had outbreaks and needed to close again? I know our superintendent was looking at Israel’s model, but then Israel had problems and had to close, so their hybrid model didn’t work out so well. Different doctors are using different countries to support their opinions. At this point it is a gamble.

Those systems didn’t close in total, just individual schools.


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[bisous]

Pz that’s horrible! There is no doubt teachers here buy stuff for their classrooms but they are initially stocked with stuff. Also, our pto gives teachers $100 grants, no questions asked, to offset teacher personal purchases.


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Can you link the podcast? Those recommendations sound reasonable to me...

[bisous]

But what about the 4 countries that went back with safety precautions and still had outbreaks and needed to close again? I know our superintendent was looking at Israel’s model, but then Israel had problems and had to close, so their hybrid model didn’t work out so well. Different doctors are using different countries to support their opinions. At this point it is a gamble.

Which four countries? Thanks!!

[PZMommy]

Which four countries? Thanks!!

Israel, S Korea, Beijing China, and Montreal. In Montreal, 9 out of 11 students in one class ended up getting sick and testing positive, plus a number of staff members.

[PZMommy]

Those systems didn’t close in total, just individual schools.


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Beijing shut down all schools for just a handful of cases. I’m in a city where we have over 1000 new cases a day.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8427641/Beijing-shuts-schools-goes-alert-level-two-tackle-new-coronavirus-outbreak.html?ito=social-facebook&fbclid=IwAR3XJe4Ftg83vIBLmAe5zWu51sqV-LU8k8IFqvVGgJXikFqoVQkxZJXxMo8

[PZMommy]

Montreal

https://montrealgazette.com/news/coronavirus-infects-nine-of-11-students-in-trois-rivieres-classroom/wcm/5748b506-fb12-4483-a064-c1c43947a663/

[PZMommy]

South Korea. 251 schools had to close and another 117 schools delayed their opening.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52845015

[carolinamama]

I find this info relevant, although I'm not sure what it means for opening schools. We cannot control what teachers and students do in their free time so I suspect we will have cases in our schools.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/video/4595798-new-concerns-about-coronavirus-at-north-texas-daycare-facilities/

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/new-covid-19-cases-impact-younger-people-daycares/2391059/

[bisous]

Thanks PZMommy!

[PZMommy]

The other thing to keep in mind is it isn’t just a 2 week recovery for many. My office manger was hospitalized twice over a 6 week period. She was unable to work (even from home) for nearly 8 weeks because she was so ill. She is in her late 40’s with no underlying health issues. My friend who is a teacher spent three weeks before she started to feel better, but since it spread through her family her quarantine time was 6 weeks long. There will be serious disruptions to in person learning. Most subs are retired teachers and in high risk groups, so they won’t be jumping at the chance to come into schools for weeks at a time either.

[mommytoalyssa]

I’m not an expert but I think you’re wrong. I know when my mom challenged it she did so under the concept of FAPE which is an educational entitlement allowing all children a Free and Appropriate Public Education. The infallible source of Wikipedia confirms this is a federal thing. I don’t see how state or local laws supercede this.

ETA: Again, to reiterate I think schools get around this because nobody challenges them. I pay for supplies, field trips, etc for my kids even though I know I don’t have to but I can so I do!

My kids attend public school in CA and I have taught public school here as well. It is my understanding teachers are asking for a "donation" to get around FAPE. This can be asking for Kleenex, school supplies, specific materials for a project, $50 for each child taking drama, etc. There is always a disclaimer that if a child can not afford this, the materials will be provided for them anyway. Some families ignore the request and some always provide whatever is asked for. A school in a low income area would not get much donated from their families but higher income areas receive many supplies this way IME.

[Kindra178]

Can you link the podcast? Those recommendations sound reasonable to me...

I pm’ed you.

For those interested, check out the following:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30095-X/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR1t2q6Rih2vtcWaE_Ym8sAtIY41AN2F LsUuV9M2FShnKUt1S7uVo70w5pw


https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-2272_article



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[mom2binsd]

In the Montreal classroom, that was back in very early May I believe, I don't know why they tried it so soon, the rest of Canada is waiting till after summer to go back, and Quebec has had the highest numbers. That didn't seem well thought out from the beginning.

[gymnbomb]

In the Montreal classroom, that was back in very early May I believe, I don't know why they tried it so soon, the rest of Canada is waiting till after summer to go back, and Quebec has had the highest numbers. That didn't seem well thought out from the beginning.

The problem is that is exactly what will happen in many parts of the US. They won’t learn from the mistakes of others and will continue the already existing push to open things up when cases are still high and/or rising.


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[California]

One thing to remember in this discussion is that most teachers are not contracted to work at all over the summer. We get very, very minimal compensated prep time at the start of the school year. While the district administrators may have a portion of the summer to work on this (and principals get partial summer breaks too), we educators are not being paid to do any trainings, etc. My district is notorious for placing teachers in new schools/new grade levels for the first several years to save money. I am not sure how districts will get teachers trained on new protocols in the short window we have at the end of summer.

[niccig]

One thing to remember in this discussion is that most teachers are not contracted to work at all over the summer. We get very, very minimal compensated prep time at the start of the school year. While the district administrators may have a portion of the summer to work on this (and principals get partial summer breaks too), we educators are not being paid to do any trainings, etc. My district is notorious for placing teachers in new schools/new grade levels for the first several years to save money. I am not sure how districts will get teachers trained on new protocols in the short window we have at the end of summer.

Exactly. I don’t work summer school, but friends do. Usually they get their assignments on last school day for summer school that starts 2 weeks later. That meeting was scheduled and it was cancelled.They’re getting told on the first day of summer school and will have to start that very day. So zero prep!

As for the Fall, we got told more information will be forthcoming in August. We have a pupil free day the day before the students start. I know we will get told on that day and be expected to implement the very next day. If that’s the case, I’m going to communicate with my families to be patient with me. We’re not contracted earlier, so I don’t know if they can tell us before then.



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[PZMommy]

Exactly. I don’t work summer school, but friends do. Usually they get their assignments on last school day for summer school that starts 2 weeks later. That meeting was scheduled and it was cancelled.They’re getting told on the first day of summer school and will have to start that very day. So zero prep!

As for the Fall, we got told more information will be forthcoming in August. We have a pupil free day the day before the students start. I know we will get told on that day and be expected to implement the very next day. If that’s the case, I’m going to communicate with my families to be patient with me. We’re not contracted earlier, so I don’t know if they can tell us before then.



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The running joke is we will find out at his weekly 11am press conference on the 17th as we are all in our staff meetings! It would be nice if he told the teachers first, but so far he has made announcements to teachers and parents at the same time via that weekly press conference.

[speo]

I too am mostly a lurker, but I can't stop thinking about this thread. I finally completed a teaching credential in December in so cal for secondary. I could not have completed everything faster than 2 years. 1.5 of schooling plus the months before with applications and tests. They are waiving some of the testing, but that will still have to be completed during the first years of teaching. Therefore some may pass through but not be competent.

I took a long term sub job that started March 9 and went to the end. I had 2 separate preps and transitioned those students to distance learning. The teacher had very few materials that were transferrable to distance learning. My subject area has completely changed its standards and primary focus of curriculum. Schools do not have appropriate textbooks for the standards, so they can't be used. I spent many more than 40 hours per week during this sub job. I was paid $130 per day after the first 9 days of $115. As others mentioned, covid is likely to make it so that a number of teachers are out for long stretches. Who are they going to get to fill these long slots? Students need credentialed teachers if the primary teacher is gone for long stretches. Not just anyone can step in and teach physics.

Also, many often discuss the numbers primary teachers might see in a day. What about secondary? On a traditional schedule it is up to 175 students, and that is normal.

I think obviously so many things are important for a healthy, happy life. Education and social lives are major components. No one wants this to be happening. At some point it is unrealistic to keep staying home. However, there is a cost to open up and the cost increases the more reckless the plan. It seems impossible for schools to open up truly safely under such a short time. Why are so many universities going straight to online? Because they know they can't do it without an acceptable level of risk. And I feel like so many write it all off with the risk is low, old teachers will stay home and kids usually are asymptomatic. Fine. But it should be acknowledged that students, teachers, staff and family members will die or have long-term health consequences in the process. How can that not happen if we send millions back in the fall? I don't know the answers, but I think my schools did a pretty good job with the hand they were dealt in the spring. I know so many are working on these issues. The feds are grossly negligent here. They could be helping to shore up money for states. Instead California has to make massive cuts, and wait to see if the feds will help. Meanwhile, districts around me have hiring freezes. Our middle school lost about 6 teachers. If those positions get filled, it is likely to be as late as August. Not much time to plan then. But maybe many in the country really want us to go back to school for the free childcare? That's the sentiment I've heard from a number of teachers.

[Kindra178]

This may be a dumb question but don’t teachers get paid year ‘round?


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[Green_Tea]

This may be a dumb question but don’t teachers get paid year ‘round?


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Some districts offer teachers the option to divide their paychecks over 12 months. Mine doesn’t. I don’t get paid after the last day of school and my first paycheck is usually mid September. I am paid for 186 days.

[mom2binsd]

Some teachers chose to get paid year round by splitting up their paychecks equally, but some districts pay them only when they are in session, so no paychecks during summer break.

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[westwoodmom04]

In person summer school is allowed in my state starting July 1. 15 students and staff per classroom. Fairly consistent with the restrictions on camps and daycare that are still operating. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the state wants these efforts to be directed at kids who did not participate in distance learning, which is at least one-third of the students in our state.

Despite being in the top 10 states in per capita covid deaths based on March and April, it is quite possible my state will have close to zero infections by September given the rapid progress made over the past six weeks. The governor of neighboring VA just said yesterday that he expects schools in lesser affected areas in his state to start the school year at “full capacity.” I think how the fall looks is going to vary significantly based on how each state is doing with the virus.

[jgenie]

In person summer school is allowed in my state starting July 1. 15 students and staff per classroom. Fairly consistent with the restrictions on camps and daycare that are still operating. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the state wants these efforts to be directed at kids who did not participate in distance learning, which is at least one-third of the students in our state.

Despite being in the top 10 states in per capita covid deaths based on March and April, it is quite possible my state will have close to zero infections by September given the rapid progress made over the past six weeks. The governor of neighboring VA just said yesterday that he expects schools in lesser affected areas in his state to start the school year at “full capacity.” I think how the fall looks is going to vary significantly based on how each state is doing with the virus.

I think that’s great that cases are down in your state. I wonder how that will change with people traveling this summer. How will states like Maine that have mandatory quarantines for visitors do if their residents travel and bring back the disease. How will states like NY that have crazy numbers of visitors each week do once people start traveling more as school ends.

[carolinamama]

In person summer school is allowed in my state starting July 1. 15 students and staff per classroom. Fairly consistent with the restrictions on camps and daycare that are still operating. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the state wants these efforts to be directed at kids who did not participate in distance learning, which is at least one-third of the students in our state.

Despite being in the top 10 states in per capita covid deaths based on March and April, it is quite possible my state will have close to zero infections by September given the rapid progress made over the past six weeks. The governor of neighboring VA just said yesterday that he expects schools in lesser affected areas in his state to start the school year at “full capacity.” I think how the fall looks is going to vary significantly based on how each state is doing with the virus.

Such an important point to remember and likely the reason we have some differing opinions on this thread. If your state's numbers are looking good and leaders and citizens continue with successful harm reduction techniques, it's easier to feel confident about opening schools. It sounds like your state is getting it together in both numbers and school planning. Our area is not doing well and that probably plays out in my responses.

Thank you to everyone for this discussion. It has made me consider ideas I wouldn't have thought about previously.

[California]

To further clarify the question about pay: Your child’s contracted classroom teacher, grades k-12, is not paid to work over the summer. They can opt to get a lower paycheck during the school year, in order to get a paycheck over the summer- but the total amount paid is the same if they get paid 9 1/2 months or 12. Summer school is paid through a separate contract, similar to getting any temporary summer job.

Subs have it worse. Paid only for days worked, and low pay at that. In our district, many subs are retired teachers supplementing their retirement income. Who will want to be exposed to new groups of kids each day? What will the quarantine procedures be?! If a teacher has to self quarantine, what sub would then want to work with students who may be asymptotic carriers (having been around their regular teacher)? I think good subs are going to be harder to find, and deserve hazard pay!

[hwin708]

Fauci's last statement on schools basically said what we are seeing here - places without cases should feel comfortable opening schools in the fall. Places experiencing a surge should look at hybrid methods. I would not like to be considering what to do in Florida's shoes. But thankfully our area is not in that position. We were one of the first place to peak, and have been doing well ever since. At this point, I do think you have to weigh the greater good of getting kids back in school, especially considering how many were completely left behind this past semester.

I don't see the point in comparing us to places that had to shut down schools again. Those are places that did an excellent job of shutting down their countries and quashing the virus outright. They now shut down isolated areas when they see any number of cases. The US is not in that position and frankly will not be. There was no national policy to quash this, so we don't get the luxury of everyone coming out of a two month quarantine to open back up with zero cases. If the country is going to be opening restaurants with a few hundred cases in an area, then we sure as heck ought to be opening schools. Which were never shown to be super spreader hotspots, by the way.

My kids are actually at summer camp at a local school. The school did a "trial run" of their COVID policies by serving as the daycare for the city's hospital workers during the height of the crisis. My city was a hotspot, and the daycare had no outbreak at all. The kids did not wear masks. They broke them up into smaller core groups, with less intermingling between the groups, but beyond that, there wasn't an attempt to socially distance 6 year olds. Instead, the school focused on hygiene - frequent hand washing and hand sanitizing. Most of the teachers and counselors wore masks, but fewer are doing so now that daycare is over and they are running camp.

My own kids private school has a wealthy population, and every possible resource. They did a GREAT job with the distance learning. And they would still call it a disaster, with limited effectiveness. They do not consider remote learning to be a viable concept for the fall. Their plans are similar to the ones listed above, which is what I am hearing from many school districts, so clearly they are listening to similar recommendations. Lunch served in classroom, staggered hallway times to avoid crowds, increased cleaning, and frequent hand-washing periods. They do not intend for the students to wear masks, but the teachers are likely to wear face shields. So the kids can see them, but they can have a physical barrier for their eyes/nose/mouth.

[AnnieW625]

My sister gets paid exactly like California said. Her school year pay is divided over a 12 month period vs. only being paid for 9 months. I thought that was a standard pay option, it kind of stinks that it isn’t.

[PZMommy]

My district used to only pay us for the 9 months. But then about 12 years ago they changed it, so our 9 month pay is spread out over 12 months. We still get paid for the same 182 days, but instead of 9 larger checks, we now get 12 smaller checks. We do not get a choice of how we get paid. If we sign up to teach summer school that is a separate contract and is paid in addition to your regular check. In most years, summer school spots are limited to special ed and high school credit recovery so only a small group of teachers can sign up to teach summer school. This year given the circumstances, they have opened up summer school classes for anyone who wants to attend from all grades, K-11. So a lot of teachers got to sign up to teach summer school. It is all online, and it is a fairly scripted program. I just didn’t have the drive to be online every morning from 8-11, so I didn’t sign up. It starts this week and runs through the end of July.

[gatorsmom]

My own kids private school has a wealthy population, and every possible resource. They did a GREAT job with the distance learning. And they would still call it a disaster, with limited effectiveness. They do not consider remote learning to be a viable concept for the fall. .

Just out of curiousity, why do they feel remote learning is not a viable concept? What is the school’s plan if school is locked down due to a COVID19 surge?

[Kindra178]

One more thing. Someone above said colleges aren’t going back. Everything I’m hearing is that colleges are going back - Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Purdue etc are some of bigger announcements I have seen.

Re teachers’ contracts, it’s a shame we are limited by them. There should be amendments to allow for summer planning, summer schools, etc.


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[doberbrat]

This may be a dumb question but don’t teachers get paid year ‘round?

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Our district gives you a choice - 22 checks or 26 Your salary is divided based on the # of checks you choose. The salary is based on 182 days in school 7.5h a day + 2 1 hr meetings a month & back to school night. Anything extra that is 'required' would have to be paid extra. If you need time to plan your lessons or grade work etc that is unpaid. But if there is a meeting and you are asked to stay or come in, or if teachers are asked to teach during a prep period they're paid extra.

[mommy111]

Just out of curiousity, why do they feel remote learning is not a viable concept? What is the school’s plan if school is locked down due to a COVID19 surge?
Our private school has done distance learning and it’s been fantastic. Much more personalized than in person school.

[PZMommy]

One more thing. Someone above said colleges aren’t going back. Everything I’m hearing is that colleges are going back - Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Purdue etc are some of bigger announcements I have seen.

Re teachers’ contracts, it’s a shame we are limited by them. There should be amendments to allow for summer planning, summer schools, etc.


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Most colleges in California have already announced online only in the fall.

And every teacher I know spends time planning in the summer, even though we don’t get paid. Problem is we don’t even know what we are planning for right now. Summer school is a separate deal as summer school classes are very limited here due to budgets.

[georgiegirl]

One more thing. Someone above said colleges aren’t going back. Everything I’m hearing is that colleges are going back - Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Purdue etc are some of bigger announcements I have seen.

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What they are telling students is kind of a lie. Pretty much all professors have been told to be prepared to teach 100% online. (I sometimes adjunct at a private university, so I get all of the emails.). The school I sometimes work for says that students will come back, but that we should be prepared to teach 100% online. The schools are saying they will go back full time because that is their hope and they want to make sure the students pay (especially pricey private universities). But believe me that is highly likely that every single university has the backup plan of 100% online, which could happen at any moment.


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[SnuggleBuggles]

One more thing. Someone above said colleges aren’t going back. Everything I’m hearing is that colleges are going back - Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Purdue etc are some of bigger announcements I have seen.

Re teachers’ contracts, it’s a shame we are limited by them. There should be amendments to allow for summer planning, summer schools, etc.


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CA is, again, unique. Almost every university I’ve heard about are opening up on campus learning. Michigan State, I think, is going online only. But ds1 will be on campus but it’s debatable which, if any, of his classes will be in person.


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[Globetrotter]

Prop 13 was terrible for CA schools, and now there is a trend to vote down education bonds as people are wary of teacher’s unions.
We live in a very mixed district, all SES levels. In lower grades we buy the school supplies. In HS, the teachers request money and/or supplies but they cannot require it. Same goes for field trips- it’s a voluntary donation.
As for colleges, Dd attends a small private in CA and they are tentatively planning to start in person with many stipulations. Obviously no one wants online college. I don’t know what to think. It will be a challenge, but it’s more feasible at a small college where they plan to use outdoor Classrooms, contracting with nearby apartments to reduce density, takeout meals only, socializing and clubs outside with masks, among other things. Plus social bubbles. Yeah, it’s a crazy experiment and who knows if it will work, but my kid wants to go. I will say her profs did a good job with virtual classrooms, though there are many challenges.
School will begin early, weekend classes, and end on Thanksgiving. All classes will be offered online, too, for people who cannot attend. Final papers and exams from home after that. I am sure the spring semester will start online and who knows when/if they will be able to go back. I don’t know how large publics can manage.

[o_mom]

What they are telling students is kind of a lie. Pretty much all professors have been told to be prepared to teach 100% online.

Yep. IU has said they will be back, students will be on campus, etc. But each professor has the option to teach the course online, so many students will end up with all of part of the schedule being online. Nearly all the large lectures will be online. Purdue is trying hard to get back to campus, but they are meeting with resistance from faculty.

There are some interesting options. One HS grad told me her school is doing 2 classes at a time for 7 weeks, two sessions in the fall, then online for Dec-Feb followed by two more 7 week sessions in the spring. This is a small college (<2000 students), though.

[gymnbomb]

Yep. IU has said they will be back, students will be on campus, etc. But each professor has the option to teach the course online, so many students will end up with all of part of the schedule being online. Nearly all the large lectures will be online.

While the University I work at hasn't made an official announcement yet, everything I've heard so far sounds much like IU. Each professor has the option of teaching online, there was some discussion of allowing students that option (with the caveat that some programs/courses may not be possible) but I don't know how that ended up. They are going into each classroom to determine how many students it can seat maintaining strict distancing guidelines, so capacity is ranging from 30-50% of normal capacity depending on the size, shape, and type of seating in the room. Any classes that are meeting face to face will shift to distance learning after Thanksgiving. Students must be given full access to all of their courses in the event they are sick or quarantined, so at a minimum professors will have to record and post their lectures and assignments online even if teaching face to face. I believe they will tell students at some point that "Approximately X% of our courses will be offered through distance learning, but not all students will find their schedules have the same proportions of face to face and distance learning courses."

[ang79]

Subs have it worse. Paid only for days worked, and low pay at that. In our district, many subs are retired teachers supplementing their retirement income. Who will want to be exposed to new groups of kids each day? What will the quarantine procedures be?! If a teacher has to self quarantine, what sub would then want to work with students who may be asymptotic carriers (having been around their regular teacher)? I think good subs are going to be harder to find, and deserve hazard pay!

I sub in our K-6 classes and normally move between 4 schools (occasionally I'll be called to two other schools). I had tons of jobs lined up March - May this past spring so it was a hit to not get that income. Luckily with DH working from home his commuting and lunch costs were cut out, so that helped. I'm actually not sure how I feel about going back to sub. I can normally get jobs at least 2-3 days a week, some weeks all 5 days and often have teachers requesting me. Our district does not have enough subs for a normal year, so I have no idea how they would handle multiple teachers being out either because they themselves are sick or they are caring for a sick child or having to quarantine due to a sick family member. We have heard nothing from our district about what to expect for the fall, so I'm just waiting to see how things pan out. Most of the subs I know are either older or used to be SAHMs who wanted to do part time work once their kids were in school. I am not keen on being exposed to lots of different people each day with the possibility of bringing it home to my own family.

[Globetrotter]

I think it will be hard to find subs who are willing to go in during Covid. That is definitely going to be a problem, So I anticipate the solution will be to quarantine everyone for two weeks.

[niccig]

Most colleges in California have already announced online only in the fall.

And every teacher I know spends time planning in the summer, even though we don’t get paid. Problem is we don’t even know what we are planning for right now. Summer school is a separate deal as summer school classes are very limited here due to budgets.

Yes we have no idea what to plan for and it will be too late to prep if we find out last minute. I plan to do some prep that I could use on zoom with distance learning or face to face, and then tweak for either scenario. The not knowing is difficult to deal with, and knowing we will have no notice.

We went out March 13 and I heard nothing from my department for 2 weeks, then we got told on a Wednesday what to have done by Friday, and then more plans to start on the following Monday. It was impossible. I had to extend the deadlines by a few days and was working until late at night. I won’t kill myself again if they don’t give us enough time. I’ll just inform my supervisor and my families that I’m working on it.


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[ezcc]

Colleges on the East coast are planning to go back as far as I know, DS is a rising senior but has friends who have graduated and are going to college all over- he says everyone is going, but lots are starting in August and ending their semester at Thanksgiving- some will have online exams in early December. He doesn't know of any schools that aren't having students back on campus- of course things could change.

[Philly Mom]

Colleges on the East coast are planning to go back as far as I know, DS is a rising senior but has friends who have graduated and are going to college all over- he says everyone is going, but lots are starting in August and ending their semester at Thanksgiving- some will have online exams in early December. He doesn't know of any schools that aren't having students back on campus- of course things could change.

Everyone around me works for a college or university. That is the plan at all of their schools. It's unclear how some of the classes will be conducted, but the kids will be on campus until Thanksgiving. One school did tell the kids not to buy plane tickets yet, though.

[MontrealMum]

Israel, S Korea, Beijing China, and Montreal. In Montreal, 9 out of 11 students in one class ended up getting sick and testing positive, plus a number of staff members.

Not Montreal. We have been divided into two groups: Montreal and everywhere else in QC. Montréal has not yet gone back. Only outside our region. I’m not sure where you’re referring to but it’s not here.

As of last week the plan is for the entire province (k4-11) to go back in Aug. All daycares on the Island of Montreal went back last Mon. Outside the Montreal region was already back along with K4-11.


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[PZMommy]

Not Montreal. We have been divided into two groups: Montreal and everywhere else in QC. Montréal has not yet gone back. Only outside our region. I’m not sure where you’re referring to but it’s not here.

As of last week the plan is for the entire province (k4-11) to go back in Aug. All daycares on the Island of Montreal went back last Mon. Outside the Montreal region was already back along with K4-11.


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https://montrealgazette.com/news/coronavirus-infects-nine-of-11-students-in-trois-rivieres-classroom/wcm/5748b506-fb12-4483-a064-c1c43947a663/

[MontrealMum]

https://montrealgazette.com/news/coronavirus-infects-nine-of-11-students-in-trois-rivieres-classroom/wcm/5748b506-fb12-4483-a064-c1c43947a663/

That is not Montréal. That’s Trois-Rivieres. It’s an hour and a half away and a significantly smaller city. Why they included a photo of a school yard located in Montreal above the article I have no idea. Scroll down in the article. No regular K4-11 schools in the greater Montréal area reopened. They considered it and then walked the idea back. Things have been much too bad here to consider opening.

Any summer school we do this summer - and it’s greatly curtailed - will be online. We do not go back until Aug.


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[MontrealMum]

ETA: I know many people have commented on the need for social interaction as a reason we need school to resume, but the guidelines I am seeing are not looking like there will be much social interaction at all. Desks 6 ft apart, staying in the same room all day, compliance with the no touching/huddling/gathering rules - this will not be school as we know it. I think there will be kids that have a very, very hard time with that, more than with virtual education.

One of the biggest issues we have here will be complying with the distancing rules such as those outlined above. Our school buildings are old, the classrooms are small. We are expected to cluster 6 desks together and for those kids to form a pod. These pods will be 1.5 metres from other pods and 2 metres from staff and remain in the same room all day. At best that allows 3 pods per room, or 18 kids. However class sizes run between 25-35 kids. We are not allowed to put the overflow in another room...not that we have one! Most of our schools are pretty full. And we certainly haven’t been given money from the Ministry to hire additional staff for these non-allowed extra rooms anyway.

Oh, we’re also supposed to keep the windows open. In Canada. Guess the cold won’t be an issue in my building because we have very few classrooms with windows [emoji6]. We also have an ancient and poorly functioning ventilation system (like many schools here) which is worrisome. At my old school the windows didn’t have screens. More than once we had to chase a bird out of the building. A decade of enormous cuts to education means things are in poor shape ☹️

Quite frankly, I see this as all or nothing Either we go back normally, or not at all. We do not have the space, staff, or budget to comply with what the government is asking of us. I would not be surprised if they realize that in Aug. I just wish they’d realize it earlier so we could use these 2 months to plan better.


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[PZMommy]

That is not Montréal. That’s Trois-Rivieres. It’s an hour and a half away and a significantly smaller city. Why they included a photo of a school yard located in Montreal above the article I have no idea. Scroll down in the article. No regular K4-11 schools in the greater Montréal area reopened. They considered it and then walked the idea back. Things have been much too bad here to consider opening.

Any summer school we do this summer - and it’s greatly curtailed - will be online. We do not go back until Aug.


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Thanks for clarifying!

[essnce629]

I also don't think the colleges that say they'll be in person in the fall are being entirely truthful.

For instance, Bowdoin College, a well known small liberal arts college with just 1800 undergrads announced it's plans for the next school year today. Technically they may be able to say they will be in person, but the reality is that only freshman and transfer students will be in person on campus in the fall and even then the majority of their classes will be online. Then they'll be sent home at Thanksgiving break and will not return at all, instead, the upperclassmen will return in person for spring semester and the freshman and transfers will continue remote learning from home. No fall or winter sports and all dorms will be singles. Social distancing, face masks, and twice a week Covid testing will be enforced.
https://www.bowdoin.edu/president/writings-and-addresses/messages-to-the-community/2020/june-22.html

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[essnce629]

Harvard Tells Faculty Most Teaching This Fall Will Likely Be Online
https://amp.wbur.org/edify/2020/06/09/harvard-fall-online-teaching

UMass Boston to teach all classes online this fall
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/22/metro/umass-boston-teach-all-classes-online-this-fall/

University of California campuses plan to offer most classes online this fall
https://edsource.org/2020/university-of-california-campuses-plan-to-offer-most-classes-online-this-fall/633991

Texas A&M University announced Tuesday that half of all its classes will be taught exclusively online.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/16/texas-am-tamu-reopening-online-fall/

Middlebury professors can decide to offer their courses in an in-person, remote or hybrid capacity, and the college expects approximately one-third of classes to be conducted online.
https://middleburycampus.com/51521/news/breaking-middlebury-announces-on-campus-instruction-for-the-fall/

MIT president says many undergraduate students won’t return to campus this fall
https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2020/06/18/mit-fall-semester-plan

Stanford University To Reopen Campus This Fall, But Online Will Be The “Default Teaching Option”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/annaesakismith/2020/06/04/stanford-university-to-reopen-campus-this-fall-but-online-will-be-the-default-teaching-option/

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[SnuggleBuggles]

I just sat through ds1’s Lamar Ge university town hall yesterday to hear their plans in more depth. “Fluid” and “flexible” were stressed. All classes will have an online version so they can go full online at any time. To have them from the outset means that kids who are sick, worried they could be sick or unable to attend in person won’t miss the content.
I’m not naive. I could be paying a small fortune for him to do what he did this spring- do his school work from the couch. But, he wants to be on campus even if it is like that.


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[o_mom]

Just got an update from our district. Previously they were looking at a hybrid model (heard from a school board member), but they now say they will be in-school 5 days/week and follow the previously published calendar. They will have a virtual learning option for anyone with underlying conditions or who is concerned about in-person attendance. Detailed plan to be released in early-July.

[scrooks]

Just got an update from our district. Previously they were looking at a hybrid model (heard from a school board member), but they now say they will be in-school 5 days/week and follow the previously published calendar. They will have a virtual learning option for anyone with underlying conditions or who is concerned about in-person attendance. Detailed plan to be released in early-July.
I expect this is what our district will do as well, although they are no where near announcing plans yet. Kudos to the school systems getting plans out early!!

[ourbabygirl]

Re: college this fall, this is from a college professor:

Jennifer Elaine Sadler
10 hrs · Shared with Public
I really want to find the right way of conveying the realities of Fall semester to college students. I think in general we just aren’t being honest about the seriousness of this pandemic and after a disappointing senior finale many college freshmen are eager for that college experience.
So here goes some really hard truths.....
New college freshmen: what you thought college was going to look like just isn’t going to happen. You’ll be 6 feet apart, wearing masks in classes that might meet every week or sporadically. No in class group activities. No sitting next to your bestie sharing your screen. There will be no campus groups hosting parties and, if they do it without permission, one death or a few cases of CORONA will put your campus on lockdown.
For college students as a whole: your professors are not willing to die for you to have a face-to-face class. We just aren’t. We are all being forced into classrooms so you won’t drop out and cause a financial burden for your college. We put every safety measure in place but make no mistake these are financial decisions. Colleges are taking a loss by shifting dorms to single occupancy, canceling event space rentals, closing dining halls and buying necessary PPE and cleaning supplies. All of this...all of it....is so you don’t leave. Very few colleges are asking faculty for input.
Granted, there are classes that most definitely have to be taught in person. They just do. Adjustments are being made left and right to make sure those classes still happen.
Your professors do love seeing you in class. We love the relationships we get to build and the activities that spark creativity and passion in learning. We are working to deliver as much of that experience digitally as we can.
Now here’s the hardest part...
These sacrifices don’t come without a price.
We absolutely know that some of your professors will die.
We know some of you will die.
And the worst of it is that’s it’s completely preventable.
Nobody is actually willing to be very honest about these facts. COVID will spread once students come back to campus. It’s not a guess, not stoking fear or gaslighting...it’s simply a truth we all understand.
Most of your elected officials are lying to you. This pandemic - this disease - it’s getting worse. It makes you feel safe because they are opening the country back up. They are NOT opening anything because it’s safer; it’s strictly economic. They want you out spending money.
Nobody in this situation actually wants to deliver an online-only option, but it’s not about just you. Every single person in the world has to make adjustments to expectations.
I’ll say it one more time...this, is not just about you.
Now here are some need-to-knows......
If you decide to shift to community colleges just be sure the transfer credits line up so you can actually return ahead and not have to repeat classes.
Ask your college what type of training they are offering professors for online instruction. Not every school has the resources and nearly every college will at least be hybrid so you need to be in classes with professors who understand technology.
Get a laptop. Not a desktop...a laptop. Get a WiFi hotspot too.
Most colleges have safety protocols so if you’re feeling sick you’ll likely be excused from having to come to class. Ask your professor ahead of time about their revised attendance policies.
Some colleges are requiring face masks...others are recommending them. Understand where yours stands because you might end up in a packed class with asshats who refuse to wear masks and cough over everyone.
Use ZOOM backgrounds. Most professors will require you to turn your camera on during digital classes.
Do not sign a waiver releasing the school of responsibility if you get sick. Just don’t.
SN: also realize that you did force their hand into keeping your in-person class so there’s that.
Disability services and addressing DEI issues has likely been a problem for some time at your college. Request specific, written accommodation plans and/or any changes to course materials that would better address DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion).
Finally.....i know your parents may say they want you out of the house. They want you to be alive more. If you feel safer at home stay at home and take online classes. If home isn’t your safe space ask the college how they plan to accommodate students residing on campus if the dorms close.
It was long, and there’s likely more...but that’s what i have. It’s not always going to be pretty folks, but i really do care about these young people and want them to know the truth about what’s going on.

[westwoodmom04]

I also don't think the colleges that say they'll be in person in the fall are being entirely truthful.

For instance, Bowdoin College, a well known small liberal arts college with just 1800 undergrads announced it's plans for the next school year today. Technically they may be able to say they will be in person, but the reality is that only freshman and transfer students will be in person on campus in the fall and even then the majority of their classes will be online. Then they'll be sent home at Thanksgiving break and will not return at all, instead, the upperclassmen will return in person for spring semester and the freshman and transfers will continue remote learning from home. No fall or winter sports and all dorms will be singles. Social distancing, face masks, and twice a week Covid testing will be enforced.
https://www.bowdoin.edu/president/writings-and-addresses/messages-to-the-community/2020/june-22.html

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This is one model but other schools are committed to having everyone back in the fall with some large classes online but smaller classes and labs in person. This is the Notre Dame/UNC/Vanderbilt model. The very tippy top schools like Harvard can say all online and not lose students, but most others cannot.

[westwoodmom04]

Just got an update from our district. Previously they were looking at a hybrid model (heard from a school board member), but they now say they will be in-school 5 days/week and follow the previously published calendar. They will have a virtual learning option for anyone with underlying conditions or who is concerned about in-person attendance. Detailed plan to be released in early-July.


I think this will be the model in most areas of the country where spread is relatively under control.

[ett]

Just got an update from our district. Previously they were looking at a hybrid model (heard from a school board member), but they now say they will be in-school 5 days/week and follow the previously published calendar. They will have a virtual learning option for anyone with underlying conditions or who is concerned about in-person attendance. Detailed plan to be released in early-July.

Will kids and teachers be wearing masks?

[o_mom]

Will kids and teachers be wearing masks?

No idea. I assume that will be part of the details they release in July.

[Kindra178]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-23/school-children-don-t-spread-coronavirus-french-study-shows?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&cmpid=socialflow-facebook-business&utm_content=business

This confirms multiple studies on this same topic. Open schools.


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[PZMommy]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-23/school-children-don-t-spread-coronavirus-french-study-shows?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&cmpid=socialflow-facebook-business&utm_content=business

This confirms multiple studies on this same topic. Open schools.


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Bloomberg is not that scientific or a medical journal. That article even points out that other studies have shown the opposite. How do you know this small study is more accurate than the others??

And what about the staff? One teacher gets it and spreads it across the staff, and the school will close. How many teachers and staff are you willing to sacrifice so your child can go back to school? I’m in a district where we have had teachers die. We have had parents of students die. We have had grandparents of students die. We have had high school students hospitalized with covid. Count yourself lucky if you are in an area where this is not a problem, but this is a serious issue for many families. Kids can’t learn if they are dead. I rather my kid fall behind in school and live, vs rushing back to school and him catching a virus that could cause him to have life long health issues or die.

[ciw]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-23/school-children-don-t-spread-coronavirus-french-study-shows?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&cmpid=socialflow-facebook-business&utm_content=business

This confirms multiple studies on this same topic. Open schools.


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As with a lot of research lately, I think that study raises more questions than answers. According to the Bloomberg article that you linked: "They found three probable cases among kids that didn’t lead to more infections among other pupils or teachers." Three cases doesn't sound like a whole lot, so I went in search of the study. I didn't find it in a quick search but did find other articles about it. I thought it was interesting that the same researcher has been quoted elsewhere saying that while elementary students may pose a low risk for spreading the virus, even he has reservations about older students returning to school. Here's a quote from another article that cites the same researcher as the Bloomberg link: “The risk of starting an epidemic from a school, or a teacher to be infected from students under the age of 10 years, appears to be very low. In contrast, for high school students, I am more reserved,” says the Pr Fontanet. Another study he had conducted at a secondary school in Crépy-en-Valois, published at the end of April, showed that the epidemic was flamed, in contrast to what was observed in the primary schools." This is not a particularly well-written article but here's the link: https://world-today-news.com/the-children-convey-little-of-the-virus-according-to-a-study-from-the-pasteur-institute/ This article does go on to say that young children may not be likely to be carriers, but it also says that about 7 percent of teachers did test positive. I am curious whether teachers here think that is an acceptable risk.

[Kindra178]

Illinois is returning to school! Guidelines released today.

Illinois will provide cloth masks to everyone staff member and student.

Social distancing.

I am continuing to read. Great result.

https://www.isbe.net/Documents/Part-3-Transition-Planning-Phase-4.pdf


Pz, I live in a huge metro area, extremely close to downtown Chicago. My county has won the award of having the most cases in the nation.

Like Basil said above, I don’t think the risk to teachers is any greater than a hospital worker.

I agree that no one cares if my kid falls behind. That’s the problem. If people cared, teacher contracts would be amended to add in extra days at the end, start school earlier to have a three week last quarter review, social promotion wouldn’t happen, and lost could go on. But no one cares.


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[Kindra178]

As with a lot of research lately, I think that study raises more questions than answers. According to the Bloomberg article that you linked: "They found three probable cases among kids that didn’t lead to more infections among other pupils or teachers." Three cases doesn't sound like a whole lot, so I went in search of the study. I didn't find it in a quick search but did find other articles about it. I thought it was interesting that the same researcher has been quoted elsewhere saying that while elementary students may pose a low risk for spreading the virus, even he has reservations about older students returning to school. Here's a quote from another article that cites the same researcher as the Bloomberg link: “The risk of starting an epidemic from a school, or a teacher to be infected from students under the age of 10 years, appears to be very low. In contrast, for high school students, I am more reserved,” says the Pr Fontanet. Another study he had conducted at a secondary school in Crépy-en-Valois, published at the end of April, showed that the epidemic was flamed, in contrast to what was observed in the primary schools." This is not a particularly well-written article but here's the link: https://world-today-news.com/the-children-convey-little-of-the-virus-according-to-a-study-from-the-pasteur-institute/ This article does go on to say that young children may not be likely to be carriers, but it also says that about 7 percent of teachers did test positive. I am curious whether teachers here think that is an acceptable risk.

The very low under 10 transmission risk factor has been cited quite a bit.


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[PZMommy]

Illinois is returning to school! Guidelines released today.

Illinois will provide cloth masks to everyone staff member and student.

Social distancing.

I am continuing to read. Great result.

https://www.isbe.net/Documents/Part-3-Transition-Planning-Phase-4.pdf


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And who will wash those masks daily??? Parents don’t even wash their kids uniforms on a regular basis, so highly doubt they will be washing masks.

[PZMommy]

As with a lot of research lately, I think that study raises more questions than answers. According to the Bloomberg article that you linked: "They found three probable cases among kids that didn’t lead to more infections among other pupils or teachers." Three cases doesn't sound like a whole lot, so I went in search of the study. I didn't find it in a quick search but did find other articles about it. I thought it was interesting that the same researcher has been quoted elsewhere saying that while elementary students may pose a low risk for spreading the virus, even he has reservations about older students returning to school. Here's a quote from another article that cites the same researcher as the Bloomberg link: “The risk of starting an epidemic from a school, or a teacher to be infected from students under the age of 10 years, appears to be very low. In contrast, for high school students, I am more reserved,” says the Pr Fontanet. Another study he had conducted at a secondary school in Crépy-en-Valois, published at the end of April, showed that the epidemic was flamed, in contrast to what was observed in the primary schools." This is not a particularly well-written article but here's the link: https://world-today-news.com/the-children-convey-little-of-the-virus-according-to-a-study-from-the-pasteur-institute/ This article does go on to say that young children may not be likely to be carriers, but it also says that about 7 percent of teachers did test positive. I am curious whether teachers here think that is an acceptable risk.

Not an acceptable risk! I can’t wait for the lawsuits when either parents or teachers start suing their districts over not being provided with enough PPE to keep students and staff safe. I get people want their kids back in school, but it isn’t worth risking lives over. People that are not in a classroom have no clue what we deal with every day. All the kids that aren’t compliant and won’t wear masks or socially distant. I’ve had plenty of students who would purposely go around and spit on other students just to defy these rules. People forget that not every student in a classroom is well behaved and will follow the rules just because they are told to do something.

[PZMommy]

Your line of Illinois returning to school is incorrect. The state released the guidelines, but it is up to each district as to what they decide to do. I’m from Illinois and just read the article and called my friends who are teachers there. Nothing has been decided yet.

[bisous]

Illinois is returning to school! Guidelines released today.

Illinois will provide cloth masks to everyone staff member and student.

Social distancing.

I am continuing to read. Great result.

https://www.isbe.net/Documents/Part-3-Transition-Planning-Phase-4.pdf


Pz, I live in a huge metro area, extremely close to downtown Chicago. My county has won the award of having the most cases in the nation.

Like Basil said above, I don’t think the risk to teachers is any greater than a hospital worker.

I agree that no one cares if my kid falls behind. That’s the problem. If people cared, teacher contracts would be amended to add in extra days at the end, start school earlier to have a three week last quarter review, social promotion wouldn’t happen, and lost could go on. But no one cares.


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FWIW, I think your child is at very low risk of falling behind and that's because of you and your level of education and the level of care that you put into their education. There are so many children at a greater disadvantage than yours.

But many people DO care about your kids, those kids, and all kids and are willing to take the risk to return because they can afford to--especially young teachers at low personal risk (my sister is one such teacher). But everyone's best interest has to be considered.

I just don't think there is an easy answer!

I'm heartened that so far our school is offering options!

[bisous]

The very low under 10 transmission risk factor has been cited quite a bit.


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To my knowledge it has always referred to the same two studies though. This one, mentioned anew in the Bloomberg article and I want to say one from China? That isn't a whole lot of data.

Again, I'll reiterate that I want this to be true more than anything. I think this would make such a difference in educational policy. I just don't know if this is a big enough study to be considered established scientific fact! Any scientists want to weigh in on this?

[ang79]

I'm a bit jealous for those of you who live in places where you are getting info about how schools will resume. Our district has been super quiet and its driving me nuts! They did approve summer sports practices to start up in July with guidelines. My 8th grader DD1 will be doing Cross Country run practice 3 times a week. I feel safe enough with that because it is all outside and easy enough to distance from others.

[ciw]

Not an acceptable risk! I can’t wait for the lawsuits when either parents or teachers start suing their districts over not being provided with enough PPE to keep students and staff safe. I get people want their kids back in school, but it isn’t worth risking lives over. People that are not in a classroom have no clue what we deal with every day. All the kids that aren’t compliant and won’t wear masks or socially distant. I’ve had plenty of students who would purposely go around and spit on other students just to defy these rules. People forget that not every student in a classroom is well behaved and will follow the rules just because they are told to do something.

I think that enforcing mask-wearing in American schools is going to be extremely difficult - and that makes me really uncomfortable. I suspect that our district will require masks for middle school up and recommend them for K-6, but I question how easy it will be to enforce at any level. Mask wearing seems to be down to about 50-50 here among adults, and most people who are wearing masks only seem to wear them over their mouths, not their noses! It is so frustrating!

[Kindra178]

Pz, teachers’ lawsuits would be workers’ comp? Especially in California, where legislature declared COVID exposure is presumed at work.

Most districts won’t want to more restrictive than the state advice. Even two large archdioceses (including Chicago!) said kids will be back.




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[ang79]

I think that enforcing mask-wearing in American schools is going to be extremely difficult - and that makes me really uncomfortable. I suspect that our district will require masks for middle school up and recommend them for K-6, but I question how easy it will be to enforce at any level. Mask wearing seems to be down to about 50-50 here among adults, and most people who are wearing masks only seem to wear them over their mouths, not their noses! It is so frustrating!

Yes, I agree! I ran some errands today, one of which was returning some online stuff to Old Navy. The doors were plastered with signs to wear masks (its supposed to be the law in PA). Walked into the store and was passed by a bunch of teenage girls and a parent all super close together and none wearing masks. Others in line had masks, but only covering their mouth. If adults can't/won't wear masks correctly, how can we expect kids? And I feel like its not that super hard to wear a mask for 15-30 min. in a store, just buck up and do it and maybe we could get through this virus safer and quicker. PA's case numbers are great right now, but I'm afraid the longer we go through this, the more complacent people will become and those numbers will jump back up again. It seems like every time I go out (whether to a store or even seeing DH's family), people are getting more lax on wearing masks and staying the recommended 6ft. apart.

[bisous]

I think that enforcing mask-wearing in American schools is going to be extremely difficult - and that makes me really uncomfortable. I suspect that our district will require masks for middle school up and recommend them for K-6, but I question how easy it will be to enforce at any level. Mask wearing seems to be down to about 50-50 here among adults, and most people who are wearing masks only seem to wear them over their mouths, not their noses! It is so frustrating!

I think I’d be comfortable for middle school and above without reservation. Kids can sometimes be more rational than adults when presented with scientific evidence. I’m not sure that masks are impossible for younger kids but it sure seems daunting right now. I have one who will be in 1st and one who will be in 3rd.

[PZMommy]

I disagree that a teacher is at the same risk as a hospital worker. Hospitals get cleaned daily, they have proper ventilation, they are given PPE.

Many schools don’t even have sinks or soap in the classroom. Where will the district find the money to provide all of us with PPE. I’m lucky if my trash is emptied a few times a week, and with custodial hours cut, there is no way they will be able to do a proper cleaning every night. We are in buildings with poor ventilation and windows that don’t even open.

My district contract says they must provide a safe work environment. Teaching without proper resources in a pandemic is not a safe learning environment.

[Kestrel]

I'm jealous, too, of those that are getting any info at this point. The only thing we got so far was a very brief online survey asking two questions: did we participate in online learning, and if so, how much? And then: if in person school is offered in 20-21, would we go? yes or no. Well- there are lot of factors to consider about in person school, it's hard to say yes or no without any idea what that school would look like.
And at least in our district - busing is a huge issue and may even be the deciding factor. (Each bus picks up the middle school kids, then one set of elementary kids, then another set for another elementary, then the high school kids. On each bus. The bus drivers' routes are something close to three hours each, morning and afternoon.)

[ciw]

Ang, I pm'd you.

[mom2binsd]

I'm also in Illinois, 2 hours from Kindra, but it's an entirely different world down here, very very few cases, BUT people have been very compliant and following the Governors direction. We just opened up for outdoor dining two weeks ago and indoor later this week with 25% capacity, stores open with masks and limited occupancy.

The Governor JUST announced that schools would be open, like an hour ago, so obviously the specific details from each district have not been provided. The masks will be provided, but as I've said before, policing and the effectiveness of them will be suspect, as most adults can't wear one correctly let alone kids/teens.

I work in a nursing home, we have been on severe lockdown since early March, no COVID cases for patients or employees yet. Lots of precautions taken and unfortunately the toll the isolation it's taking on the residents is HUGE! They so miss their bingo games 3x week, socializing with each other in the dining rooms and with family. The do "over the intercom bingo", window visits, but for most those are awkward etc. We hired more activity aids to do 1:1 visits but it's still not the same. So I get the reality of the disease, but when the environment around us has so few cases it's hard to keep the families and residents happy.

As for back to school, I am fine with my kids going back, they are Freshman and Seniors and both are so eager to get back into the classroom. DD is on swim team and it's a fall sport, she can't wait. I'm not sure what the school day will look like but, given what I have seen around the world with respect to transmission and cases with kids (under age 18) I feel it's the right decision. If a teacher has underlying conditions that put them at risk and can't be mitigated by the use of PPE, then I believe a medical leave is appropriate (I worked in schools, I know many teachers who have taken them, their benefits include this type of leave).

Folks around here are ready to go back. I have many teacher friends and they all feel ready to resume classes in person (and most are in their 40's and 50's).

So many questions to answer but I feel comfortable with the direction we are headed in. Illinois has been very methodical in how they are opening up, so let's hope it continues.

[westwoodmom04]

I disagree that a teacher is at the same risk as a hospital worker. Hospitals get cleaned daily, they have proper ventilation, they are given PPE.

Many schools don’t even have sinks or soap in the classroom. Where will the district find the money to provide all of us with PPE. I’m lucky if my trash is emptied a few times a week, and with custodial hours cut, there is no way they will be able to do a proper cleaning every night. We are in buildings with poor ventilation and windows that don’t even open.

My district contract says they must provide a safe work environment. Teaching without proper resources in a pandemic is not a safe learning environment.

I am all for fighting for teachers to have the necessary ppe but I think we need to acknowledge hospitals are much higher risk environments because they are full of sick people seeking treatment. Kids generally are low risk for getting and spreading this disease, and sick kids should not be at school.

[PZMommy]

Sick kids should not be in school but parents still send them all the time when they are sick because they view us as free babysitters. Even the week before closing when the district was sending home letters and phone calls to stay home and attendance wouldn’t be affected, I had parents dosing their kid with Tylenol and then bringing them to school. By noon they were going home with 101 degree temps. They returned the next day despite being told they needed to be fever free for 24 hours. Then there are the countless times when a kid doesn’t look well in the morning and admits they were throwing up all night. While some parents follow the rules of keeping sick kids home, many do not. Unfortunately we do not have nurses on our elementary campus, but maybe 1 day per week so this falls on the teachers and office staff. We went to strike over this issue and won, but the district has not followed through due to a nurse shortage and the ridiculous requirements they have to be a nurse in school.

[doberbrat]

I am all for fighting for teachers to have the necessary ppe but I think we need to acknowledge hospitals are much higher risk environments because they are full of sick people seeking treatment. Kids generally are low risk for getting and spreading this disease, and sick kids should not be at school.

Sick kids should NOT be in school but sometimes desperate parents send them in anyways. One of the kids in my class was clearly unwell - he'd been out the day before. He told me he'd been sick during the night and his mom gave him medicine so he could go to school. I brought him to the nurse to be sent home despite his pleading with me not to because his mom would loose her job if she was out again. I felt horrible for them.

I've heard parents say, well, they picked it up at school anyways so what's the big deal? That ticks me off. But we also have to acknowledge that in this country there is a HUGE population who dont get paid if they dont work. That can make the difference between being able to buy groceries or make rent. Too many absences = job loss.

[westwoodmom04]

Sick kids should NOT be in school but sometimes desperate parents send them in anyways. One of the kids in my class was clearly unwell - he'd been out the day before. He told me he'd been sick during the night and his mom gave him medicine so he could go to school. I brought him to the nurse to be sent home despite his pleading with me not to because his mom would loose her job if she was out again. I felt horrible for them.

I've heard parents say, well, they picked it up at school anyways so what's the big deal? That ticks me off. But we also have to acknowledge that in this country there is a HUGE population who dont get paid if they dont work. That can make the difference between being able to buy groceries or make rent. Too many absences = job loss.

I don’t doubt that happens, probably at least a little less likely with covid, at least, I would hope so. But even accounting for that, an occasional stray sick kid not the same as a hospital with adults there specifically because of covid.

[PZMommy]

Also the CDC recommends schools not open until cases are 25/100,000 or less. I know in my city our rates are increasing and we are up to 190/100,000 so not even close to the recommendations. For those of you sending your kids back to school does your county meet that CDC threshold??

[scrooks]

Also the CDC recommends schools not open until cases are 25/100,000 or less. I know in my city our rates are increasing and we are up to 190/100,000 so not even close to the recommendations. For those of you sending your kids back to school does your county meet that CDC threshold??
Is that cases per day?

[Philly Mom]

Is that cases per day?

Yes.


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[westwoodmom04]

New cases per day? Maryland was at 7 new cases per 100,000 today. But the number for CA Would be below 25 per 100,000 with 5000 new cases for 40 million people.

[petesgirl]

Do you think kids would do better wearing a face shield at school instead of a mask? I think they would be just as effective at containing air droplets and much better for teaching/communicating. I don't know how easy they are to get though, especially in bulk.