need middle school advice (math classes)

[♥ms.pacman♥]

DS (11) will be heading off to middle school in August (OT, but how is this happening? Wasn't it just the other day I was posting asking about nursing in public, cloth diapers, etc...LOL).

We just found out yesterday he qualified for a very selective advanced math program that our district offers. At the middle school level It basically involves the following courses

6th grade: take honors 7th grade math (+ some addl work)
7th grade: take honors Algebra I (+ some addl stuff)
8th grade: take honors Geometry

the point of all this is not only accelerated math, but when they get to 9th grade/high school, they can credit for algebra & Geometry and can start 9th grade with Algebra II. Then 10th-grade trig/pre-calc, and 11th grade AP Calculus, etc.

DH & I are both engineers and think this is a big deal. I went to a middle school that did not offer any advanced math whatsoever, so I started HS (9th grade) with just Algebra I. Thus I never got opportunity to take any form of calculus in high school, and was at major disadvantage once I went off to college as an engineering major, in comparison to all other engineering students who had already taken AP Calculus AB, BC, etc. I was literally the only kid I knew in engineering that had never taken any calculus before college, and this was in the mid-1990s. It made for a stressful transition my first year of college.

DH went to an very underserved middle school and high school (historically redlined, mostly minority , poor district) that had limited math classes. Despite that, DH was very into math from an early age and did math competitions etc. He had to fight his way out of crappy schools and into a magnet boarding school for last years of HS. DH commented that he would have killed to be able to have this adv math option that this very-highly rated program our district offers.

Now for the problem: DS doesn't want to do this adv math program. Not because he hates math or anything like that.. but because it would require him to go to a different middle school that what he's zoned for. He wants to go to the middle school most of his friends are going to. That's literally the only reason. He didn't even want to take the placement test for this program...then agreed to do it, pretty much only to check out which other students were also taking it (lol). Over time realized that none of his good friends are considering the program, which solidified his decision.

I am struggling with this. Half of me wants to allow him to make his own decisions; the other half is the frustrated parent seeing him turn down a very good opportunity, that I & DH would have walked over hot coals for. The other part is - I don't think my DS realizes how middle school is so different, that there are literally over 1000 students and the odds of having elem school friends in his classes even at same school is minimal. I get the impression that middle schoolers mainly hang out with the kids that are in the same extra curricular (band, sport, dance, etc). Or maybe they get time to chat at lunch? I have no idea, I didn't go to a typical middle school.

I should note that even if he turns down this program, he could still take honors math etc at the MS he is zoned for, but still wouldn't nearly be as accelerated as this math program at this other MS (No geometry offered at this middle school). He does have the option of doing a "credit by exam" to skip ahead and start with 7th grade math in 6th, but th en by 8th he would need to go off-campus before school starts to take geometry (not an issue; my kid is an early riser).

Would love to hear inputs from middle school/high school parents, especially those who have faced similar dilemmas with their kiddo. I am trying to talk to other parents in same district...though we have been virtual learning for over a year now (and no in-person extra curriculars) and while it has been going very well, very limited opportunity to talk to other parents. I do have some co-workers with slightly older kids who have their kids in this accelerated program (I work with many other engineers), and they all moved mountains to allow their kid to do this program...so it is a very well-regarded program in the district.

also, kudos to anyone who is still reading this!! Hehe.

[PZMommy]

How does your son feel about math in general? My son LOVES math, and middle school is the first time they really get a chance to be accelerated. My son is on a similar math track that you mentioned, and is just finishing 6th grade. For the first time he is actually getting challenged and forced to put effort into math which I think is great. He really doesn't know any students at his middle school, which I guess this year didn't matter since he has been virtual all year. Out here a lot of kids go to different middle schools based on magnet programs, so it isn't a big deal to not go to the same school as your friends. If your son is good at math and really enjoys math, then I'd probably push him towards the accelerated track. If math isn't his thing, then I wouldn't push it. The counselor at my son's school said the kids that are successful on this track are the ones that really enjoy math. She said even the best of math students can't handle it if they don't enjoy math.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

How does your son feel about math in general? My son LOVES math, and middle school is the first time they really get a chance to be accelerated. My son is on a similar math track that you mentioned, and is just finishing 6th grade. For the first time he is actually getting challenged and forced to put effort into math which I think is great. He really doesn't know any students at his middle school, which I guess this year didn't matter since he has been virtual all year. Out here a lot of kids go to different middle schools based on magnet programs, so it isn't a big deal to not go to the same school as your friends. If your son is good at math and really enjoys math, then I'd probably push him towards the accelerated track. If math isn't his thing, then I wouldn't push it. The counselor at my son's school said the kids that are successful on this track are the ones that really enjoy math. She said even the best of math students can't handle it if they don't enjoy math.

Great question. My DS likes math, but he doesn't LOVE it, like my DH did at the same age. He is very good at it, lcan appreciate it, doesn't understand why some people find it difficult, but doesn't LOVE it. Not the type to want to do math competitions and the like. My DS is way more interest things like building , motors, robotics, circuits, etc. Also very into art. He was in the gifted program since Kinder and despite occasionally saying he didn't want to be in it (again, probably bc he didn't want to be pulled out away from his friends) he enjoyed it. The kid is extremely tech-savvy and could probably provide better tech support than most adults.

Though being electrical engineer I recognize that math foundation is really critical for engineering classes in college (physics, etc).

[mommy111]

One of the things I’ve Realized about kids is that what you perceive as an opportunity to die for, they perceive as a Choice with pros and cons very different from the ones that you would’ve considered. I guess it’s the privilege that they are brought up with. I’d let him decide. Otherwise you’re setting yourself up for six years of struggle over pushy mom and curriculum choices. At some point between DC and DN, I’ve learned to lay out the choices for them and then follow their lead

[gatorsmom]

These are the kinds of dilemma that I worry over for months. Hugs to you, these are big decisions. And congrats and high fives to your son! He should be so proud of himself! On the one hand I could see how this accelerated program would benefit him in the future. My oldest DS is planning his senior courses to prepare him for a college engineering program. Everything revolves around the math. If your son took the accelerated route and did well, he could really be well-prepared for college.

But there are those parents who would say not to to worry too much about preparing for college at this age. College is a long way off. And there is some truth to the idea that MS is scary and kids at that age struggle to find their crowd. Letting your son head into MS with some of his friends will ease the transition and give him confidence. At the very least, knowing he’s starting a new school with his friends might give him peace of mind.

At this age, it likely won’t matter how much you try to explain your reasoning to him. High school and college do seem a long way off. Could he spend a day shadowing a student at the school with the accelerated program? Mine did that before he started high school and it really changed how he felt about the high school he toured. Maybe meet with some of his future teachers? I also find that if another adult explains to my kids why something is good for them, they are more likely to listen than when I say it.

The good news is that your DS is smart enough that even if he takes a less accelerated path, he will perform well and most likely be ahead of his classmates. And with proactive parents, he won’t make poor choices that really set him back. Either way, your DS will do well.

[sariana]

I would let him do the regular accelerated program and stay at his home school. Friendships are really important, in some ways more important than academics. Most people find success more through the relationships they build than from the classes they take in middle/high school.

And there is some research showing that accelerating too much too young is detrimental in higher-level math courses. It is definitely not conclusive, but the development of the brain is poorly understood, and there rarely is a detriment to taking one's time. If his choices were algebra in 6th versus waiting until 9th grade, I would feel differently. But it sounds as though he will still have a viable option for an appropriate math path, just not super acceleration.

[gymnbomb]

If he goes to his preferred middle school; there are other ways to get another year of math in if he needs or wants to. I took 2 classes at the high school in the morning before riding the bus with a few other kids back to the middle school for the rest of my classes in 8th grade, and I took a summer class and a night class at the local community college during high school.

Depending on what the high school offers, there may or may not be any advantage to taking anything beyond algebra 1 in 8th grade. I took AP Calculus (the only calculus offered at my high school) in 11th grade then had no good math options for my senior year. I ended up going to a local college for statistics in the afternoon, but that didn’t really benefit me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[m4nash]

Do you know what your state’s requirements are for math in high school? In Our district they require everyone to be enrolled in math all 4 years in high school.

My older sons both took (or will take) Geometry in 8th grade, but I regret that decision for my oldest. He wants to be a music major in college and now he will take Calculus as a Junior in high school and rather than get to take an extra music class his senior year he can take Differential Equations or maybe AP Statistics, which he isn’t excited about.

Our public schools even offer a more accelerated math track where you take Algebra II in 8th grade, but that just seems like something that would only be a good fit for a select few.

I would let your DS stay at his nieghborhood school and do the regular accelerated program there.

[SnuggleBuggles]

(didn't read the other replies- sorry if I duplicate)
Even if he just finishes with algebra 1 he could still get to calculus, right? some sequence of:
9 geometry
10 trig
11 algebra 2
12 calc

We pushed ds1 ahead so that he would finish that sequence above junior year and then be able to take the next calc or stats. Senior year came and he loaded up on theater classes instead. ;) It was actually a bit of a challenge for college because he had to do a placement test over the summer and he was all rusty from not having math for so long. He had to re-take the placement test (which is allowed) but requires 9 hours of guided study modules before re-taking. That was a slog but he aced it.

A lot of kids he went to high school with transferred to our public school from Catholic schools or charter schools and arrived with just algebra. A lot of them doubled up in 9th grade on math to get ahead. There are always solutions.

Now, for the logistics- where is the school relative to your home and where you would be zoned for? You'll have 2 kids in 2 buildings next year. How much time do you want to spend driving between them? Also, is the math school convenient to home if all of his friends will live over there? Or if you have to get him from extracurricular activities? When you are already scrambling with timing dinner and stuff, having to drive out of your way to get him from an activity will ad an extra wrinkle too.

My kids attended a k-8 charter and not a single one of their friends lives close by and none of them went on to the same high school. It's a pain and it was also a social challenge during the pandemic. Many of the kids live in the same neighborhood and formed a pod- they hung out throughout the pandemic (outside, masks) but ds2 wasn't part of that because it was good, old fashioned, let's go ride our bikes type hanging out and me driving him 20 minutes wasn't the same. Yes, the pandemic wasn't the norm but it has always been annoying that their friends have never lived close by.

I do see your point about how big the middle schools are there though- way different than our schools here. But, think through the logistics especially if he just isn't that into it. He will have math opportunities. Even if not accelerated, he will reach calc.

Oh, and my kid was a science kid. The traditional, not pushed, math schedule is actually better. For our school, calc and physics line up the same year and the material feeds off of one another; the kids who were taking both at the same time appreciated that. Ds1 didn't mind because he still remembered calc but there's something to be said for why schools have their classes coordinated a certain way. Our high school has suggested pathways laid out so you can see what classes they recommend each year for kids interested in different things. Maybe see if you can find one.

[Philly Mom]

I think you have received good advice. I would maybe ask parents/kids in the zoned middle school if the advanced math feels challenging/interesting. Otherwise, I could see framing the argument of being engaged vs board, but I would still let him decide.

I also wasn’t sure if you meant 1000 kids in a grade or in the school as a whole. We have 1000+ kids in our middle schools and no one thinks it is too big. The kids do branch out but I know that their elementary friends provide comfort in the beginning.


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87652)

[MSWR0319]

Middle school is hard. I would let him stay where he wants and just have him take the honors class. At this age for me, it's more about finding the right social group. These kids have a lot to navigate at this age and if he has a solid group of friends then I think it's best for him to stay with them. My sister teaches 6th grade and was mentioning all of the stuff they have to deal with: vaping, drugs, bullying, etc. All of the typical MS/HS stuff. I would want my kid to have a solid group of people during that transition to help make right choices. If he goes to a new school, he'd have to make a new group of friends. Which can be hard and you wouldn't want him to get into the wrong group of kids, which often happens at first when you are the new kid. Not always, but it happens. Something else I would consider would be if he'd be able to socialize outside of school with his new friends. Are they close enough to you that you don't mind driving to see them or pick them up, etc. If he wanted to change that would be a different story, but 6th grade is just such a change for these kids.

[carolinamama]

Congrats to your DS! It sounds like he has worked hard to hone his talents in school. As you probably know, there isn't a wrong answer here. It's easy, as parents, to see 10 years into the future but that's practically half his life so our perspective counts. The program will open doors he can't yet imagine, let alone see, and we want our kids to have the opportunities we didn't. Minus the accelerated math program, does your DS have any other reasons to attend the other middle school? Math is important but so are the other core classes and electives. Will he know a few kids? Socializing changes through the middle school years - will he be close enough to school friends to hang out? On the other hand, the accelerated program enables him to be surrounded by other math-minded peers who could be a very positive influence.

As my kids have gotten older, I've found peace with the notion that I can't want something for my kids more than they want it. It's so hard but the struggles aren't worth it. DS1 is similar to your DS. He's so naturally bright and was in the gifted program in elementary and middle school. He loved robotics and science olympiad throughout elementary and middle and thought he'd follow DH into engineering. DS1 was also placed into the most accelerated math track for middle school. Our situation was different - he wouldn't go to a different middle school but math would be taught online with kids from other schools. We ended up pulling him back to the regular accelerated math and he will finish with Calculus as a senior instead of a junior. Ultimately, we chose the interactive in-person experience over online but if the class wasn't online, our choice would have been different. Was it the right decision? Who knows but I don't lose sleep over it, anymore at least. He contemplated doubling his math classes next year (10th grade) to "catch up" since his high school is on a block schedule but opted to do extra French (he will have 4 years of French at the end of his 10th grade year since it's blocked) and the AP seminar/research capstone. He and I talked through his choices, laid out the pros and cons and then he made the decision. He's now leaning towards a career in medicine.

Ultimately, your DS will likely thrive in either school. He has involved parents and a great academic mind. Your DS should be very proud of being selected. Good luck in making the choice for HIM - you are doing great mama!

[o_mom]

(didn't read the other replies- sorry if I duplicate)
Even if he just finishes with algebra 1 he could still get to calculus, right? some sequence of:
9 geometry
10 trig
11 algebra 2
12 calc

We pushed ds1 ahead so that he would finish that sequence above junior year and then be able to take the next calc or stats. Senior year came and he loaded up on theater classes instead. ;) It was actually a bit of a challenge for college because he had to do a placement test over the summer and he was all rusty from not having math for so long. He had to re-take the placement test (which is allowed) but requires 9 hours of guided study modules before re-taking. That was a slog but he aced it.

A lot of kids he went to high school with transferred to our public school from Catholic schools or charter schools and arrived with just algebra. A lot of them doubled up in 9th grade on math to get ahead. There are always solutions.


...

I do see your point about how big the middle schools are there though- way different than our schools here. But, think through the logistics especially if he just isn't that into it. He will have math opportunities. Even if not accelerated, he will reach calc.

Oh, and my kid was a science kid. The traditional, not pushed, math schedule is actually better. For our school, calc and physics line up the same year and the material feeds off of one another; the kids who were taking both at the same time appreciated that. Ds1 didn't mind because he still remembered calc but there's something to be said for why schools have their classes coordinated a certain way. Our high school has suggested pathways laid out so you can see what classes they recommend each year for kids interested in different things. Maybe see if you can find one.

I have a lot of the same thoughts... I have seen the pathway above (geom in 8th) go really well for some kids, and others burn out or end up repeating classes. Knowing the HS path is important. (Here, your Algebra 2 grade can determine if you go on a path to calculus or the non-calc path - getting a B+ in Algebra 2 as a freshman can basically disqualify you from the calc path unless you retake it. But, that's a whole 'nother rant :wink2:)

I also see much of the accelerated math in the same light as reading in elementary - you can't tell in 3rd grade which kids were reading at age 3 vs age 6. I work with loads of Ph.D. scientists (with "only" a MS, I'm one of the least educated). I could not tell you which ones had calc in HS and which ones did not. My goal for my own kids was to have some calc exposure in HS, but not rely on that for college credit. I saw some students my freshman year in college (at a top tier engineering school) who skipped freshman year calc with AP credits and they struggled when thrown into a class where the professors were used to teaching sophomores and juniors. They also had the struggle that SB mentioned where their calc and physics classes don't line up.

Doubling up with Algebra 2 and Geometry as a freshman is also an option that I have seen some kids take, but by then they have a better idea of how into math they are. Making that decision as a 5th grader is more difficult.

ETA: Our MS is 1200 students over 3 grades. They usually had some kids they knew in their classes, especially the electives like band, and also at lunch and in extracurriculars. HS is a different story - they usually only know 1-2 kids in all their classes in a given year.

[georgiegirl]

That is so frustrating both middle schools don’t offer this. It is pretty standard here. That is what DS1 is doing now (pre-algebra in 6th.). Our middle school is also quite big (maybe 800 students in 2 grades), and yes, it’s typical not to have anyone your kid knows well in a class...maybe a couple of acquaintance friends. We have 4 elementary schools feeding into the middle school. DD (9th grade) is extra accelerated, taking trig/pre-calc in 9th and AP calc next year in 10th. We are lucky that our home middle school (only option) offers accelerated math tracks.

Are there any other benefits to the middle school offering the advanced math track? Is one more convenient? Are there other reasons you could use to push the math middle school? Are there any kids he knows who are going to the other school? How easily does he make friends?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[KpbS]

I would have him go to the new school and start the new track. He’s very qualified and has great support at home to get him through.

Middle school (and high) are natural times of transition. Kids move to new schools, move away entirely, change interests and friend groups naturally. It’s a great time to make a change.

He’ll be fine either way you choose, but I wouldn’t let him make the decision solely. You guys are the parents. With his interests in STEM and robotics he will need and want the extra math soon.

[mmsmom]

If he can take Calculus as a senior in his current school then I would leave him there. IMHO, there is no need for acceleration beyond getting to Calculus senior year. In my area kids that do this type of acceleration end up in a dilemma senior year because they run out of maths to take and colleges want to see you take a math senior year. AP statistics is an option for some but if not they have to take a class at the community college or online to fill that requirement. There is really just no advantage or point to taking AP Calc as a junior.

[LBW]

If he can take Calculus as a senior in his current school then I would leave him there. IMHO, there is no need for acceleration beyond getting to Calculus senior year. In my area kids that do this type of acceleration end up in a dilemma senior year because they run out of maths to take and colleges want to see you take a math senior year. AP statistics is an option for some but if not they have to take a class at the community college or online to fill that requirement. There is really just no advantage or point to taking AP Calc as a junior.

I agree with this 100%. I have three boys who have all been in the MS accelerated math program, but here it's structured in a way that in HS they take Geometry in 9th, then Alg II, and 2 years of Calc. They can opt for Statistics as an elective. They also did not have to switch schools. I would have strongly reconsidered the program if they needed to leave their friends.

If you do feel strongly about encouraging him to enter the acc program, really look at what's offered to the HS seniors for math, and whether or not you think it would benefit him enough to transfer now when he doesn't want it.

[PunkyBoo]

I agree with keeping him at home school with his friends.
DS1 has always been extremely academic, not due to any pushing but because he loves learning and becoming an expert in things. We had him take the entrance test for a school that is very advanced for 7th-12th. He didn't want to go there, he wanted to go to school with the "regular" kids. We talked up how he'd be academically challenged and engaged for the first time in his life, how many opportunities would come from having that program. He wanted "regular" school. We had him take the test, and he didn't get admitted. He will probably never fess up to it, but we (and the principal at his elementary school) are certain that he bombed the test on purpose. And he was angry with us anytime the subject of that school came up. So he went to the "regular" schools for Jr high and high school, is in the top 10% of his class (of about 700-800 kids per grade), is taking lots of AP classes, has lots of friends from various groups/ activities, and is on track to go to a good college and follow his dream to becoming a doctor.
But he still has resentment over how much pushing we did toward the advanced school. So I advise you listen to what is important to your son NOW, that will lay the groundwork for him to trust you and still gives him future opportunities.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[AnnieW625]

I am not a math person at all (I took the bare minimum to graduate and my highest level is college math....something between algebra 2, and trigonometry) but I think you should let him chose his middle school. Even if he doesn’t have classes with the same kids he will hopefully be able to see the same kids at lunch and it is nice having something in common with the neighborhood. Another bonus is not having to commute.

My DH is an engineer as well and there was no advanced track in our school district like you describe either and he has been successful and didn’t take calculus until college. He did go to community college right out of high school so I am sure he saw more freshman in his classes vs. if he had been somewhere like MIT, Cal, or Cal Poly but your son won’t be the only freshman not taking calculus even with all of these advanced STEM programs that have become the norm since we were in high school in the early to mid 90s.

I know one person who attended the school that PunkyBoo referenced and the kid is a genius; he is now a senior double math major in statistics and math at a socal CSU. He is not the norm and the school worked for him, but on the flip side his equally brilliant sister who is two years younger went to a regular high school and did just fine as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ncat]

I think there are huge plusses to staying at local middle school, especially if the other option requires significantly more bus travel time.

I took Geometry in 8th grade. My high school didn't really have any classes beyond calculus, so I was in a weird program run through one of the local colleges my senior year. I completely fizzled out on math in college.

That said, we are struggling with a similar issue for DS1. Our district reworked the math curriculum since DD went through. DS1 is taking prealgebra this year (6th). The material has come easy to him and he scores well though not perfect on tests. He has really struggled with homework this year and it has brought his grade down to a B. If he had an A+ he could take Algebra next year and Geometry in 8th. Because he does not, he will take algebra over 2 years, the Geometry in 9th. I fear he will be bored to tears and will be unlikely to develop better homework and study skills if he isn't challenged. We can apply for a waiver and I'm still undecided on whether its worth a try.

[smilequeen]

I think the regular accelerated math is fine. My older boys did that. Honors Algebra I in 8th. Started with Geometry in 9th. That is a perfect path for Calculus in 12th, which is more than enough for most and the social aspect isn’t unimportant.

[KrisM]

I think being +1 year in math is totally fine.

My 2 oldest are +2 years and did algebra 2 in 9th grade and are both completely still very good at math. However, I see a lot of their friends who are on this path struggle more. A couple changed to statistics instead of calculus in 11th grade and will do computer science or something else for math credit in 12th. They were strong in math in 5th, but not quite enough to see through to that high level by 11th. Just something to consider.

DS2 is +3 years in math. He skipped 4th grade and went to a 5th grade class (just for math). So in 6th he was in algebra with 7th graders. At first he was completely against it because he didn't know 5th graders and didn't want to be weird. But now he's glad because he has friends in different grades. It's the same school, so not your situation, but a little close.

DS2 is in 7th now and doing math online. He's in algebra 2 this year and will do geometry next year in 8th grade with his 8th grade cohort. Now he's worried he won't know anyone in that math class, lol. We flipped his 7th and 8th because he'd be online for algebra 2 regardless, so figured this year was a good year for that.

[scrooks]

My Dd had a choice with math last year. She is in 7th and taking Algebra (on the advanced track you mentioned). In 8th she will take geometry and with have to get up early to take it at the high school since they do not offer it at the middle school. She loves math and when accepted in the path happily chose it (if required her to study pre algebra last summer since she technically skipped it). I wasn’t going to push her on this path if she didn’t chose it (she would have still been able to take calc as a senior). I think I would let your DS pick his path since it’s not going to set it him off track really. Kids at that age have so few choices in school and I do think friendships are really important.

[ahisma]

DS1 is in a similar program. He is heading to 9th grade next year and has been accelerated since 2nd grade. Math is an area of strength for him, but not a passion. I cannot see the value of having him switch buildings and social groups to pursue something that is not a personal focus area for him. He is, from what the district has told me, one of the top two math kids in the district. His passion is social studies. If I pushed him to pursue math, he'd resent it. As it is, he enjoys it well enough, but wouldn't be inclined to seek it out. Meanwhile, he does seek out social studies opportunities - he's actually zoomed with state senators as a student advocate, etc.

ETA: For context, DS1 is in 8th grade and is currently taking Algebra II / Functions, Stats and Trig Honors. He'll take AP Stats in 9th, Pre-Calc in 10th, and then will do a two year IB HL math track in 11th and 12th. I don't see any of that really changing his life, to be honest.

[hbridge]

Another perspective to consider... When your child starts college, whatever path he chooses, he will want to take Calculus at the college if he is majoring in a field requiring math. Many colleges prefer you take their calculus class and it is a good way to get familiar with a college class and how math is taught at the school. So, if he is going into engineering, he will probably want to take Calculus in college regardless.

I always tell my students to NOT use Dual Enrollment or AP credits for classes required for their major. Those first classes lay a lot of groundwork for the rest of their college classes.

Honestly, I would lay out the pros and cons to your son (and yourself) and then talk to him. What does he want to add to the pro/con list, what does he want to do (and why)... He may surprise you with his perspective. Definitely give him your opinion with your reasoning, but ultimately it is HIS decision. Switching schools for one subject is a big change and one that can't be redone without social and academic "consequences". He can't just "try the program" and then drop back done if it is not working for whatever reason. Also, remind him of the consequences of either decision and let him know that, while it is his decision, he cannot come back and "blame" you if he later believes it was not the right choice... Good luck and congratulations. Just being chosen for the program is a big accomplishment.

[JBaxter]

I would let him attend the school of his choice. Middle school is hard enough socially let alone being pushed to go somewhere you don’t want to go

[erosenst]

DD is on a similar track to the one OP mentioned - she's a junior and finishing calc AB. At our huge HS (same as O_Mom), some finishing calc BC and some had it as sophomores (! ) in addition to those who will have Calc AB senior year or pre-calc senior year.

Having said that - agree that the social aspect is important. She was lucky to be able to do the accelerated program at her 'home' middle school, with grade level peers in her classes. I only skimmed - but if they DO go the accelerated path are they with same age kids in MS? in HS? Ours was in MS but not high school - where in my opinion it matters less but not totally unimportant either. (Hmmm - I think honors Algebra II may have been only freshman or freshman and soph...)

Good luck deciding!

[SnuggleBuggles]

DD is on a similar track to the one OP mentioned - she's a junior and finishing calc AB. At our huge HS (same as O_Mom), some finishing calc BC and some had it as sophomores (! ) in addition to those who will have Calc AB senior year or pre-calc senior year.

Having said that - agree that the social aspect is important. She was lucky to be able to do the accelerated program at her 'home' middle school, with grade level peers in her classes. I only skimmed - but if they DO go the accelerated path are they with same age kids in MS? in HS? Ours was in MS but not high school - where in my opinion it matters less but not totally unimportant either. (Hmmm - I think honors Algebra II may have been only freshman or freshman and soph...)

Good luck deciding!

What's the benefit to finishing math by sophomore year? If it frees up some great elective space, awesome. If not, I am not sure I see the appeal.

A "down the road" thought too...ds1 was a year ahead in science and math and most of his friends wound up being a grade ahead. AKA a bit lonely senior year when they were all gone (still had a good social group but his core group moved on). And now, in college, being a year behind them means that they are all living in different cities this summer for internships and career related jobs while he's at home. I loved that his friends could drive him places but there are sometimes drawbacks from being in classes and making friends with older kiddos.

[Kindra178]

Isn't there just regular advanced math at your middle school, say Algebra I in seventh? My concern with this particular track is - what happens next? In high school, it's going to get really hard, really fast. He's going to have to really want this track when he takes BC Calc as a sophomore. Even if he can do the work, emotional maturity and the ability to study is also important. Also, is your goal a lot of AP credit? If not, there's no reason to rush this.

Unlike when I was growing up, taking Algebra I in eighth grade these days is the norm.

I agree with Philly Mom - 1000 kids in a middle school isn't really a big deal. It's actually better for the kids; there appears to be a lot of friend dropping across both genders. Availability of other kids helps that.

[Melaine]

I would let him do the regular accelerated program and stay at his home school. Friendships are really important, in some ways more important than academics. Most people find success more through the relationships they build than from the classes they take in middle/high school.

And there is some research showing that accelerating too much too young is detrimental in higher-level math courses. It is definitely not conclusive, but the development of the brain is poorly understood, and there rarely is a detriment to taking one's time. If his choices were algebra in 6th versus waiting until 9th grade, I would feel differently. But it sounds as though he will still have a viable option for an appropriate math path, just not super acceleration.

I agree with this.

[erosenst]

What's the benefit to finishing math by sophomore year? If it frees up some great elective space, awesome. If not, I am not sure I see the appeal.

.

These kids don’t finish. They take AP Stats one year and Linear equations/Multivariable calc the other. And yes with 5400 kids and a big SES population it’s insane what is available for every subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SnuggleBuggles]

These kids don’t finish. They take AP Stats one year and Linear equations/Multivariable calc the other. And yes with 5400 kids and a big SES population it’s insane what is available for every subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah. Our school caps out with AP Calc BC or AP Stats.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

THANKS all for the responses! Such good things to think about. I will try to reply to as much as I can


(didn't read the other replies- sorry if I duplicate)
Even if he just finishes with algebra 1 he could still get to calculus, right? some sequence of:
9 geometry
10 trig
11 algebra 2
12 calc

We pushed ds1 ahead so that he would finish that sequence above junior year and then be able to take the next calc or stats. Senior year came and he loaded up on theater classes instead. ;) It was actually a bit of a challenge for college because he had to do a placement test over the summer and he was all rusty from not having math for so long. He had to re-take the placement test (which is allowed) but requires 9 hours of guided study modules before re-taking. That was a slog but he aced it.

A lot of kids he went to high school with transferred to our public school from Catholic schools or charter schools and arrived with just algebra. A lot of them doubled up in 9th grade on math to get ahead. There are always solutions.

Now, for the logistics- where is the school relative to your home and where you would be zoned for? You'll have 2 kids in 2 buildings next year. How much time do you want to spend driving between them? Also, is the math school convenient to home if all of his friends will live over there? Or if you have to get him from extracurricular activities? When you are already scrambling with timing dinner and stuff, having to drive out of your way to get him from an activity will ad an extra wrinkle too.

My kids attended a k-8 charter and not a single one of their friends lives close by and none of them went on to the same high school. It's a pain and it was also a social challenge during the pandemic. Many of the kids live in the same neighborhood and formed a pod- they hung out throughout the pandemic (outside, masks) but ds2 wasn't part of that because it was good, old fashioned, let's go ride our bikes type hanging out and me driving him 20 minutes wasn't the same. Yes, the pandemic wasn't the norm but it has always been annoying that their friends have never lived close by.

I do see your point about how big the middle schools are there though- way different than our schools here. But, think through the logistics especially if he just isn't that into it. He will have math opportunities. Even if not accelerated, he will reach calc.

Oh, and my kid was a science kid. The traditional, not pushed, math schedule is actually better. For our school, calc and physics line up the same year and the material feeds off of one another; the kids who were taking both at the same time appreciated that. Ds1 didn't mind because he still remembered calc but there's something to be said for why schools have their classes coordinated a certain way. Our high school has suggested pathways laid out so you can see what classes they recommend each year for kids interested in different things. Maybe see if you can find one.

thanks! and yes, that would be the correct sequence if he just does Algebra I in 8th grade. that does allow Calculus I in senior year of high school. however, from my experience in college, 1 year of calculus in high school is equivalent to just 1 semester of college calculus (at least at the really competitive engineering schools, esepcaily if you just take calculus AB), and isn't much to set apart from other engineering students. Like it seemed like 99% of incoming engineering students had taken at least 1year or more of Calculus in high school (I was literally the only one that had not).

I found a bit more info about the High school options for math in this district. This is a really competitive district that is highly regarded, so luckily there are a lot of options and going to a university in HS wouldn't be required. This accelerated math program has the kids doing honors Geometry in 8th grade so when they go to high school the following is typical/recommended:

9th grade - Honors Alg II & Pre-Calculus
10th grade - Calculus I & II (get college credit)
11th grade Differential Equations & Number Theory (get college credit)
12th grade - Abstract Algebra & Multi-variable calculus (get college credit)

Typing it out I realized that that is an insanely accelerated/compressed program!! If my son does not do this special math program, I would still want him to tested this summer to place into 7th grade honors math, so he can do honors Geometry in 8th grade (will have to be taken at a different campus early in the morning) so then in high school he could do something like:

9th grade - Honors Alg II
10th grade - Honors Pre-calculus
11th grade - AP Calculus (hopefully BC, for college credit)
12 grade - AP Statistics (for college credit)

All these are offered at the high schools in our district, so no need to go off-campus in high school.

if he doesn't test out of 6th gr math this summer, he could always do regular honors 6th grade math, honors 7th, and then algebra I in 8th grade, and still end up with 1 year of Calc in 12th grade that he could do. Though from my and DH's experience, that seems like the bare minimum for incoming engineering students (and this was in the 1990s, no idea how competitive it is now)...

[♥ms.pacman♥]

That is so frustrating both middle schools don’t offer this. It is pretty standard here. That is what DS1 is doing now (pre-algebra in 6th.). Our middle school is also quite big (maybe 800 students in 2 grades), and yes, it’s typical not to have anyone your kid knows well in a class...maybe a couple of acquaintance friends. We have 4 elementary schools feeding into the middle school. DD (9th grade) is extra accelerated, taking trig/pre-calc in 9th and AP calc next year in 10th. We are lucky that our home middle school (only option) offers accelerated math tracks.

Are there any other benefits to the middle school offering the advanced math track? Is one more convenient? Are there other reasons you could use to push the math middle school? Are there any kids he knows who are going to the other school? How easily does he make friends?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Middle school here is 6,7,8th grade. Both Middle school options each have 1000 students. Seems huge to me, as I went to a small religious K-12 school that was like 150 students TOTAL.

The middle school we are zoned for is conveniently located (less than 1 mile), and THEORETICALLY walkable. I say theoretically bc it's on a VERY busy road/intersection. there is literally a CVS catty-corner to it, and a gas station across the street. I don't think I would let my DS walk it because I would fear he would get hit by a car by someone on their phone. We can't do bus bc we live too close, which is annoying.

About math options, our district is highly rated, though many middle schools on the more central & west side of the city have all the options like geometry in 8th grade. we are on the east side which is general lower SES/high ESL population. I just looked our MS info and it is about 70% black & latino. I just found out the middle school is offering free lunch to ALL students this year, due to the high number (over 65% qualifying). So I guess that's convenient for us (no need to make a lunch)..

The other school with the accelerated math program is farther away (20 min drive), in a more isolated & residential area, much nicer & more modern building. DS did a summer program once years back and the building is way nicer. Far away, but at least 1 mile/10 min away from my work. The demographics are different, higher SES, way more white/Asian kids, and only 1/3 of students qualify for free lunch. He wouldn't get a bus either here, so that would be a pain for pickup & drop-off.

Also, another logistical factor is my DD who is a year younger. DD likes math and is great at it , but isn't passionate about it. I see her even less likely to get into the program and want to do it, for same reason as DS. Also, with her selective mutism, the whole needing to be with familiar faces is like 100x. Sibling transfers to a different MS due to older sib being in math program is allowed for a fee, but there would be no point in DD going to a school where she knows practically nobody but her brother in a higher grade. And yeah, I like driving, but 2 kids in 2 different schools for an extra two years (with one school being a 20 min drive) would really suck.

As for DS making friends, he is decently good at it. he's not like my DH who is anti-social and introverted and hates being around people (sometimes I wonder how I married this man, he HATES being around people, it's so strange to me...lol). Though I do agree with the point someone made about building trust with a teen early on and valuing their inputs instead of dismissing them.

I am leaning towards letting him choose to go to the local MS we are zoned for. not only logistically easier but I think what DS really wants and I can see it just causing resentment otherwise. if our local MS was a ****ty school with limited math option I would think otherwise. I've heard many great things about the teachers there. I took my kids to a neighborhood pool today to play with some school friends (some kids already at this MS) and DS and DD had a ball and I got to chat with other moms going into this MS.

My kids really enjoy socializing with friends (as do I) and I think my DH has a hard time understanding that. We've been married almost 15 years, and my DH still doesn't get it. He would be a hermit if he could. Some days I think he struggles to talk to even ME. LOL. My DH had virtually no friends as a kid by choice, and never saw the value in it. He was all about studying math and science. He couldn't care less what others thought. My dad was similar.

[SnuggleBuggles]

You’re cool of he doesn’t want anything to do with STEM, right? [emoji4] I had ds1 all figured out by 8th grade. Loved computers, not musical in any way...fast forward and he blossomed in different ways and really changed so much. And it’s such a cool thing to watch!


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87652)

[AnnieW625]

You’re cool of he doesn’t want anything to do with STEM, right? [emoji4] I had ds1 all figured out by 8th grade. Loved computers, not musical in any way...fast forward and he blossomed in different ways and really changed so much. And it’s such a cool thing to watch!


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87652)

I think this is super important to think about as well. You have to set aside your expectations at some point. I know he is still young though. One of my pet peeves is parents telling their kids they should major in “X” instead of something that really interests them. I was lucky to have parents who let us major in what we wanted to. I ended up with a career in business (first real estate, and now insurance) and took no business classes in college because they didn’t interest me at the time. My in laws told my BiL he should major in business instead of doing drama which he said was his first passion. He doesn’t hate accounting (he has been doing it for 28 years now), but he isn’t nearly as excited about it as his wife who thrives in accounting and loves it. With my DH my in laws took very little interest in DH’s engineering major and never quite understood why he majored in it which I honestly found kind of sad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gatorsmom]

I think this is super important to think about as well. You have to set aside your expectations at some point. I know he is still young though. One of my pet peeves is parents telling their kids they should major in “X” instead of something that really interests them. I was lucky to have parents who let us major in what we wanted to. I ended up with a career in business (first real estate, and now insurance) and took no business classes in college because they didn’t interest me at the time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with this up to a point. Kids have no experience supporting themselves or a family or how they will feel after 10, 15 or 20 years doing a job. Parents have the benefit of hindsight. Also, parents having the same genes, can more likely predict how a child will feel about certain career paths later in life. For example, I nearly ended up with a French major even though I had no idea what to with it. I was passionate about learning the French language, history, culture, etc and still love it. But I had no interest in teaching it. Someone at some point said, “this just isn’t a realistic career path for you.” And thank God I listened. Maybe that was my parents, I can’t remember. I’m thankful they steered me differently.

DS2 keeps saying he wants to own a surf/skateboard shop for a career when he gets older. This kid is smart, gets bored easily, and likes his little luxuries. I tell him to enjoy skating and scootering but he’s nuts if he thinks he will be happy for decades owning a skateboard shop. I know this kid. He’s going to want money, he’s going to want respect in society. Math comes easily to him. Engineering and business is in his blood. He should get used to the idea. Maybe I’m being mean shooting down his ideas or maybe I’m trying to help him create a stable life for himself.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Deleted because too OT [emoji4]

[georgiegirl]

I agree with this up to a point. Kids have no experience supporting themselves or a family or how they will feel after 10, 15 or 20 years doing a job. Parents have the benefit of hindsight. Also, parents having the same genes, can more likely predict how a child will feel about certain career paths later in life. For example, I nearly ended up with a French major even though I had no idea what to with it. I was passionate about learning the French language, history, culture, etc and still love it. But I had no interest in teaching it. Someone at some point said, “this just isn’t a realistic career path for you.” And thank God I listened. Maybe that was my parents, I can’t remember. I’m thankful they steered me differently.

DS2 keeps saying he wants to own a surf/skateboard shop for a career when he gets older. This kid is smart, gets bored easily, and likes his little luxuries. I tell him to enjoy skating and scootering but he’s nuts if he thinks he will be happy for decades owning a skateboard shop. I know this kid. He’s going to want money, he’s going to want respect in society. Math comes easily to him. Engineering and business is in his blood. He should get used to the idea. Maybe I’m being mean shooting down his ideas or maybe I’m trying to help him create a stable life for himself.

I totally agree with you. I do think parents (and schools) need to teach kids about what kind of lifestyles go along with different careers. I majored in art history (and got a Ph.D in it as well) because it was something I loved and was passionate about. It was not the best choice. We tell kids to follow their passions (which are mostly about video games or art or music), and it is VERY difficult to succeed in these types of careers. It’s smarter to have a practical major/degree and explore your passions on the side.

To the OP, with your added info, I’d go to the local middle school where your son wants to go. It’s more convenient (location and little sister situation) and he can still take calculus his senior year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[klwa]

Not to derail the thread completely, but as a parent of a rising 10th grader, as well as a middle schooler and an elementary schooler, you'll learn SO MUCH about what is offered by the state and district after your student is in high school. Even if your student doesn't end up in accelerated classes, there's a lot of different opportunities to move ahead & work towards college credit.

If any of you are in NC, most if not all of the counties have early college high schools, where the schools are part of the community college campus. What you don't hear about as much is the Career & College Promise program for 11th and 12th graders who go to their normal high school. https://www.nccommunitycolleges.edu/academic-programs/career-college-promise Basically, starting the summer after 10th grade, students can work with their guidance counselor and a guidance counselor at the community college to start taking classes towards their AA/AS for free.

All of this to say, I wouldn't stress too much about a student who's already in the college prep pipeline in middle school.

[Gracemom]

Op I think we are in the same school district. FYI you can have him take the bus if you’re less than 2 miles from the school, but you have to pay for it. But that’s only for your home school.

My son did not do Math Rocks because he didn’t want to change middle schools. Some kids were very happy to go to the other middle school because their friends were also going. The Math Rocks schools also have a better reputation.

We know quite a few kids in the program. The kids who do well in it love math and have an internal desire to work hard an succeed. They are mature and can handle the fast pace and pressure. In high school they are going to have other AP classes that will be pretty demanding. Plus extra curriculars, social life, etc. As long as he takes calculus in high school he’ll be fine.

[jenmcadams]

Do you know what your state’s requirements are for math in high school? In Our district they require everyone to be enrolled in math all 4 years in high school.

My older sons both took (or will take) Geometry in 8th grade, but I regret that decision for my oldest. He wants to be a music major in college and now he will take Calculus as a Junior in high school and rather than get to take an extra music class his senior year he can take Differential Equations or maybe AP Statistics, which he isn’t excited about.

Our public schools even offer a more accelerated math track where you take Algebra II in 8th grade, but that just seems like something that would only be a good fit for a select few.
.

I think this is good to consider. My DD was on an accelerated track similar to the one your DS is being offered (took AP Calc BC as a Junior) and my DS is one year accelerated beyond that (taking Calc BC as a Sophomore). In our district, it's not super unusual to offer Geometry in 8th grade, so even though not all MSs offer it, most do. I have mixed feelings about Math acceleration. I think it probably did my DD a disservice...she was pretty good at Math, but I don't think she needed to go as fast as she did. She's majoring in Public Policy/Intl Studies with a minor in Econ and never loved Math. For my DS, he's extremely good at Math, but also not interested in science/math/engineering as a possible path right now. While I think he would have been bored on a different track, I wish I had slowed him down and made him take AB and then BC Calc only because I don't think he really learned BC remotely this year.

MS is a tough time socially and I would definitely keep that in mind when you consider what input to let him have. I think you're right that lots of kids expand their friend groups in middle school, but I also have friends who forced their DS to go to a more academic MS and most of his friends went elsewhere and it turned out to be super tough socially. You know your kiddo best and I would strongly encourage him to branch out and take the oppty, but if you're worried about him socially, maybe let him pass.

[mom2binsd]

Middle school is such an awkward time, my two are very social and have had the same group of friends/lots of extra curricular sports outside of school, but even so, I would never dream of moving them away from their "home" school unless there was a REALLY compelling reason why/or they requested it. Like others have said, you can still take plenty of rigorous math courses at the HS level, you are NOT precluding him from success in college, but it sounds like maintaining friends at his current school would be beneficial.

[westwoodmom04]

You are just entering the stage of parenting where kids are old enough to have strong preferences about things like this. I would walk through the perceived advantages of the program with him one more time and let him decide.

My dd’s middle school followed this same track as their standard honors , but then add an Honors Advanced Quadratic Equations class prior to Pre-Calc so they still wind up with calculus as a senior unless they double up. There are just so many different ways to approach it, I think he definitely could double math or take a summer course if he had interest in high school in pushing ahead a year.

[belovedgandp]

Just chiming in with our personal experience. My kids are in our large suburban school district 30,000+ students. High schools are around 450 a class and middle school (6th through 9th) are 250-ish per class. DS1 is finishing his junior year. DS2 is finishing his 8th grade year. Both are bright kids, get the A's without much work, and have a general aptitude in math. DH and I both have engineering degrees. DS1 is definitely going the engineering route. DS2 has many interests and will most likely do something math/science related.

DS1 was the last grade to follow the "double" accelerate path. He took geometry in 8th grade. This year he chose to take Calc AB and will then take Calc BC next year. His pre-calc teacher his sophomore year said he could have handled Calc BC, but in some cases why put that kind of stress on him. DS1 does ALL the things and spreading this out over two years made the coursework more manageable. And the more he looks at engineering schools, almost all of them are going to have him retake Calculus anyway.

DS2 will be a year "behind" this schedule, but I think it will serve him fine. If he feel the need he can take Calc BC his senior year or roll back to AB only. If he's going to a math/engineering field that is going to have him take the course again we're fine. If he's smart and going to go in a completely different direction in college then push and get the credits out of the way and be done with it.

I went into my engineering program with only taking pre-calc as a senior. Freshman year Calc I that first semester kicked my behind. I'm happy both DS will have a better background than I did.

I was pretty hot when the district changed the math course structure. In traditional fashion they were correcting for accelerating too many students too much by over correcting cutting back on how much and how many. The biggest hole our district had was not having good geometry teachers in the middle school. My friends teaching the upper courses at high school said you would start seeing the holes at the end of their sophomore year.

But for your son, ponder and go with what you want. I do say middle school is hard enough without taking away friend groups. DS1 did make the choice to go to a program at a high school that is not our boundary school. The distance is an issue. Instead of the school being 1 mile away it is 8 miles. Much less of an issue when he could start driving there by the end of his freshman year but would have been huge for me as his parent for middle school. Yes, there's bussing but that is only for attendance. All those after school trips for activities add up fast.

[nfceagles]

I don’t know if this helps at all. I’m actually in the opposite scenario right not in that my MS is dialing back their offering and won’t even consider giving my daughter credit if I homeschool her in a math course on our own dime. Long story, so I’ll leave it at that.

Now for my experience, which is admittedly old. I LOVED math and was a very good student. I took the Geom, Algebra II, Pre Calc, Calc AP track in my mediocre high school. It was the most that was offered. I chose not to take the AP exam because I planned to major in math and figured it would be good to repeat Calculus and really solidify that in college. Come to find out, the highest my college would let you take based on their placement test (without having an AP credit) was Pre Calc. So I took Pre Calc my first semester and then Calc I my second semester. All repeat and honestly it made for a nice easy transition to college. In the end I finished college with a math degree in 3.5 years and went on to a successful career in a math field. So it didn’t cost me in the end to not have gone to a better HS, taken AP exams, and started college post Calculus. All this to simply say, I think your normal MS’s offering is fine for a child who likes math but doesn’t want to change schools.

I’m frustrated with our schools at the moment and would send my kids to private schools or move towns if they’d be on board, but at 13 and 15 I’ve decided it’s not worth forcing that on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk