Spinoff of college admission threads - thing I just learned

[erosenst]

Lots of college admissions threads so thought I'd share what I just learned. If your high schooler uses Naviance, there's a function there that shows the stats by college for your school - last five years of applications, acceptances, and enrollment by year, plus a chart showing by student (no names/identifiers of course) where their GPA and SAT/ACT land on a matrix and if they were accepted or not. It also shows where your kid lands on the matrix, which gives a guesstimate of acceptance odds. A little hard to describe but fascinating. And while I said in another thread that DD had narrowed to four schools, it's now up to seven as her acceptance odds are even more of a crapshoot than we thought ( ! ).

High level - she's at a school with a highly rigorous curriculum/tons of course offerings, and high test scores but minimal grade inflation. It's not unusual for kids to have 15+ AP/IB/full weight classes. For one highly competitive school 147 kids have applied in the last five years. Five have gotten in. We know one was profoundly gifted, state champion athlete who won a national science contest. Another must have been a high level athlete in some sport - 28 ACT and 4.0. Other 3 acceptances were 33-34 ACT and 4.1-4.5 GPA - but a number of higher ACT/GPA combos didn't get in, including maybe 10 36 ACT and 4.1+ GPA.

Gonna be a long year waiting for admission decisions!! And yes, you now have to decide whether knowledge is power, and you want to look....or that ignorance is bliss :).

[o_mom]

Lots of college admissions threads so thought I'd share what I just learned. If your high schooler uses Naviance, there's a function there that shows the stats by college for your school - last five years of applications, acceptances, and enrollment by year, plus a chart showing by student (no names/identifiers of course) where their GPA and SAT/ACT land on a matrix and if they were accepted or not. It also shows where your kid lands on the matrix, which gives a guesstimate of acceptance odds. A little hard to describe but fascinating. And while I said in another thread that DD had narrowed to four schools, it's now up to seven as her acceptance odds are even more of a crapshoot than we thought ( ! ).

High level - she's at a school with a highly rigorous curriculum/tons of course offerings, and high test scores but minimal grade inflation. It's not unusual for kids to have 15+ AP/IB/full weight classes. For one highly competitive school 147 kids have applied in the last five years. Five have gotten in. We know one was profoundly gifted, state champion athlete who won a national science contest. Another must have been a high level athlete in some sport - 28 ACT and 4.0. Other 3 acceptances were 33-34 ACT and 4.1-4.5 GPA - but a number of higher ACT/GPA combos didn't get in, including maybe 10 36 ACT and 4.1+ GPA.

Gonna be a long year waiting for admission decisions!! And yes, you now have to decide whether knowledge is power, and you want to look....or that ignorance is bliss :).

Oh, yes... that is depressing.

I will say that some of it is the details of those applications. For some schools, it can be highly competitive in certain majors (e.g. computer science), but not as much in other areas. Most of the higher level schools will also recalculate your GPA as unweighted (and I have yet to figure out how to find that in our system). Then there is the "cap" on the number of students from our school that certain in-state schools have. They have said that if they went by numbers alone, they could fill their allotment of in-state students from our high school (probably an exaggeration, but I think that in principle this is happening).

[erosenst]

Oh, yes... that is depressing.

I will say that some of it is the details of those applications. For some schools, it can be highly competitive in certain majors (e.g. computer science), but not as much in other areas. Most of the higher level schools will also recalculate your GPA as unweighted (and I have yet to figure out how to find that in our system). Then there is the "cap" on the number of students from our school that certain in-state schools have. They have said that if they went by numbers alone, they could fill their allotment of in-state students from our high school (probably an exaggeration, but I think that in principle this is happening).

Right - her odds are worse as the competitive schools to which she's applying are direct admit to ...yes highly competitive CS programs. It will help that she's a white female with 4 years of AP CS classes but...who knows how much.

DD recalculated her unweighted manually - but to make it worse some schools eliminate some classes so who knows what THEIR system will show. I found it interesting that Naviance focuses on weighted though.

I didn't look closely at the stats for the instate school to which DD will apply - but to your point it's not a total given that she will get in. This years acceptance isn't fully populating yet (at least that's the strong guess - it's way too low even for this year at the state schools ) but eyeballing looked like < 50%. I didn't spend much time but I do know that the cutoff for GPA/test scores is waayyyyyyyyyyy higher than in the dark ages when I attended the other big state school.

I think what may have surprised me most is that admittance stats matched the overall university average. I would have thought that our HS would be above that average, and have 1-2 per year at minimum. All 5 were the same year. It may also impact future that non attended - but again such a total crap shoot.

If I haven't mentioned - I like knowing waaaayyyyyyyyyy more than it appears possible for this process. I keep reminding myself that a) it's a crapshoot and b) it will all be fine/work out at some point.

[gatorsmom]

oops double post

[gatorsmom]

I highly recommend this book that StantonHyde linked to on another college thread. It does a great job of explaining the selection process. Essentially it’s different for every college. Each college places an emphasis on different student qualities and strengths. And every year they tend to shift their selection guidelines to suit different needs- they might need more full-paying students one year than another, maybe trying to fill certain quotas of ethnicity, SES etc. Its an easy and fascinating read that basically says, do your best in high school, do what you can to stand out, prove with your high school course choices that you truly want into a specific program, and know that even perfect-on-paper students might be rejected for reasons they can’t control. It’s a crap shoot.

https://www.jeffselingo.com/book/who-gets-in-and-why/

[wendibird22]

I agree with gatorsmom.

Unweighted core GPA (so history, science, math, ELA ONLY) is become the more dominant metric to look at as a measure of success in college.

And there's a whole industry of data mining that gives admissions reports about who they should offer enrollment to in any given year based on funding available to get those individuals to deposit, who is likely to accept an offer and at what funding level, what academic programs are over/under subscribed, and yes all the variety of demographics. Each institution has its own playbook and even being an insider, I would be hard pressed to crack the code on another institution's enrollment strategy. Throw in the fact that the pandemic has rendered application and enrollment trends almost useless as a predictor of current applicant behavior, and it's anyone's guess!

[erosenst]

I highly recommend this book that StantonHyde linked to on another college thread. It does a great job of explaining the selection process. Essentially it’s different for every college. Each college places an emphasis on different student qualities and strengths. And every year they tend to shift their selection guidelines to suit different needs- they might need more full-paying students one year than another, maybe trying to fill certain quotas of ethnicity, SES etc. Its an easy and fascinating read that basically says, do your best in high school, do what you can to stand out, prove with your high school course choices that you truly want into a specific program, and know that even perfect-on-paper students might be rejected for reasons they can’t control. It’s a crap shoot.

https://www.jeffselingo.com/book/who-gets-in-and-why/

Def agree it was an interesting read and your other points. This data surprised me even after reading the book...sigh. I have always gotten the 'crapshoot' part, even before the book although a bit more so since. For some reason seeing the stats from our very very large, academically strong, high SES school hit home in a different way. And yes, I get some of that works against applicants but it was still eye opening.

[elbenn]

Is this website for anyone to look at or do you have to have an account through your school?

[erosenst]

Is this website for anyone to look at or do you have to have an account through your school?

Your kid has to have an account through the school. Which they very well may have without you knowing it - I can't log in/get very very few notices about it.

[KrisM]

Even if your school has Naviance you may not have data like that. We have Naviance, but all the data says "not enough to show the plot" or something. Even with 200+ applications. So a big mystery still.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Def agree it was an interesting read and your other points. This data surprised me even after reading the book...sigh. I have always gotten the 'crapshoot' part, even before the book although a bit more so since. For some reason seeing the stats from our very very large, academically strong, high SES school hit home in a different way. And yes, I get some of that works against applicants but it was still eye opening.

But your school really isn't that unique. there are lots of great schools plus you are up against kids that pay $50k year at a private school too. Our kiddos will land somewhere that winds up having what they need. And they can always transfer too. It's nice to assume they will love it and stay all 4 years but sometimes the fit is just off- and that's ok. Or, you might find that you don't get in as a freshman but can transfer in to a desired school. :)

[NCGrandma]

Even if your school has Naviance you may not have data like that. We have Naviance, but all the data says "not enough to show the plot" or something. Even with 200+ applications. So a big mystery still.

That suggests that the small private school my DGDs attend probably have no useful data via Naviance. There are only ~350 students in K-12. Fortunately, from all I’ve heard, their college counselor is very good. And pre-COVID, HS students went on group visits to a variety of NE colleges.


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[erosenst]

But your school really isn't that unique. there are lots of great schools plus you are up against kids that pay $50k year at a private school too. Our kiddos will land somewhere that winds up having what they need. And they can always transfer too. It's nice to assume they will love it and stay all 4 years but sometimes the fit is just off- and that's ok. Or, you might find that you don't get in as a freshman but can transfer in to a desired school. :) Sorry - my post sounded waaaaaay more entitled than I meant it to be. It's been a long day with a ton of first world issues and I think I'm hitting crabby/overwhelmed. Thanks for calling me out on it.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Sorry - my post sounded waaaaaay more entitled than I meant it to be. It's been a long day with a ton of first world issues and I think I'm hitting crabby/overwhelmed. Thanks for calling me out on it.

I'm sorry! i didn't mean to sound so judgy!!

[erosenst]

I'm sorry! i didn't mean to sound so judgy!! Oh you weren't - you were pointing out facts!

[KrisM]

That suggests that the small private school my DGDs attend probably have no useful data via Naviance. There are only ~350 students in K-12. Fortunately, from all I’ve heard, their college counselor is very good. And pre-COVID, HS students went on group visits to a variety of NE colleges.


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I don't know. I would guess you may have it anyway. I think it might be part of a higher level of a subscription package than our school has. We have 400+ graduate every year, but is lacking on college prep type of stuff. We had a National Merit Semi-Finalist this year for the first time ever and the mom said it was really hard to get the school to follow through on all that needed to be done to get to the next level. It's just not on their radar.

[KrisM]

That suggests that the small private school my DGDs attend probably have no useful data via Naviance. There are only ~350 students in K-12. Fortunately, from all I’ve heard, their college counselor is very good. And pre-COVID, HS students went on group visits to a variety of NE colleges.


Sent from my iPad using Baby Bargains (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87652)

I don't know. I would guess you may have it anyway. I think it might be part of a higher level of a subscription package than our school has. We have 400+ graduate every year, but is lacking on college prep type of stuff. We had a National Merit Semi-Finalist this year for the first time ever and the mom said it was really hard to get the school to follow through on all that needed to be done to get to the next level. It's just not on their radar.

[carolinamama]

Oh, yes... that is depressing.

I will say that some of it is the details of those applications. For some schools, it can be highly competitive in certain majors (e.g. computer science), but not as much in other areas. Most of the higher level schools will also recalculate your GPA as unweighted (and I have yet to figure out how to find that in our system). Then there is the "cap" on the number of students from our school that certain in-state schools have. They have said that if they went by numbers alone, they could fill their allotment of in-state students from our high school (probably an exaggeration, but I think that in principle this is happening).

No Naviance available to DS at his high school, at least he doesn't know anything about it. I would have been very interested to see the data. We live in a large and competitive county in our state. Not only is there capping on schools but on counties for the in-state flagship schools. We joke about moving to a more rural adjacent county about 30 minutes away to give our kids a better shot at admission. But it's very real. These discussions on here about college admissions are fascinating to me even though we aren't in the trenches yet.

[hbridge]

I agree with gatorsmom.

Unweighted core GPA (so history, science, math, ELA ONLY) is become the more dominant metric to look at as a measure of success in college.


My child's school does not even calculate GPA since they say it doesn't mean anything and will be recalculated by the colleges upon applying.

[PunkyBoo]

My son's giant district (30,000 students grades 7-12) does not provide access to Naviance. But I recently found out that the UC schools here in California have some sort of local preference for the kids in the top 9% of their high school classes. However I doubt that's enough to offset the number of out of state/international students they admit to get the higher tuition. And now UCs aren't taking test scores at all, which actually hurts my DS1 who studied his butt off, by taking the free practice offered by college board/Khan academy, and got an amazing score in the SAT.

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[gatorsmom]

My son's giant district (30,000 students grades 7-12) does not provide access to Naviance. But I recently found out that the UC schools here in California have some sort of local preference for the kids in the top 9% of their high school classes. However I doubt that's enough to offset the number of out of state/international students they admit to get the higher tuition. And now UCs aren't taking test scores at all, which actually hurts my DS1 who studied his butt off, by taking the free practice offered by college board/Khan academy, and got an amazing score in the SAT.

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Based on what I read in that book, I suspect they take into account all the information that the students send them. Every little piece of information helps them determine whether or not the students would do well at their school. Since your son did well, I'd make sure to include that information in the application packet.

[gymnbomb]

My son's giant district (30,000 students grades 7-12) does not provide access to Naviance. But I recently found out that the UC schools here in California have some sort of local preference for the kids in the top 9% of their high school classes. However I doubt that's enough to offset the number of out of state/international students they admit to get the higher tuition. And now UCs aren't taking test scores at all, which actually hurts my DS1 who studied his butt off, by taking the free practice offered by college board/Khan academy, and got an amazing score in the SAT.

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Is there anywhere else in his application where it would be appropriate to mention his test score, even if they aren’t taking them officially? I am not sure if it is permitted to have someone mention it in a letter of recommendation, or maybe in his response to some other application question?


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[westwoodmom04]

My oldest is only a sophomore but I was really surprised how popular computer science has become as a major, maybe I am out of the loop because no one on my immediate family works in tech. Close to 15 percent of the seniors at her all girls high school have already declared computer science as their college major (I am guessing they have to declare as often schools will only admit kids specifically to that major).

[PunkyBoo]

Is there anywhere else in his application where it would be appropriate to mention his test score, even if they aren’t taking them officially? I am not sure if it is permitted to have someone mention it in a letter of recommendation, or maybe in his response to some other application question?


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkI'm not sure, he's a junior this year and only worked this hard for SAT so he could have alternate entry to National Merit scholarships. We think it's visible right now through his college board profile, for that search function. But yes, hopefully there will be an opportunity for him to provide the score even if they're not asking.

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[California]

My son's giant district (30,000 students grades 7-12) does not provide access to Naviance. But I recently found out that the UC schools here in California have some sort of local preference for the kids in the top 9% of their high school classes. However I doubt that's enough to offset the number of out of state/international students they admit to get the higher tuition. And now UCs aren't taking test scores at all, which actually hurts my DS1 who studied his butt off, by taking the free practice offered by college board/Khan academy, and got an amazing score in the SAT.

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Regarding the UCs: Yes, they are admitting more international students, but they've also significantly increased the # of admitted California students. It's just... the number of California students applying keeps going up too, so even with more California students on campus, admission hasn't gotten easier.

The 9% program gives California students (who are ranked in the top 9% at their HS) who aren't admitted to any of the UCs they apply to a second shot- they can get into a UC with an open spot. In recent years that has meant Merced. One of DH's coworkers transferred over to Merced and is really happy there! DS wanted a decent-sized city so it didn't make his fall-back list, but I could see it being a pleasant place for someone who doesn't mind a small town.


One other spot to look for info: College Confidential. When we were going through the application process with DS, his school used Naviance but I can't remember if it had data on the scholarships students had been offered? I found a lot of the scholarship info on College Confidential. I'd search for colleges and then look at the stats people were posting who had been admitted. DS's experience mostly ran true to what we saw on College Confidential.

[essnce629]

Based on what I read in that book, I suspect they take into account all the information that the students send them. Every little piece of information helps them determine whether or not the students would do well at their school. Since your son did well, I'd make sure to include that information in the application packet.

The UC schools went test BLIND this year and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. You will not be able to submit your scores anywhere on the application. BUT they can often tell how you'd do based on other factors in your app, mainly your course history and grades. If you took 4 years of advanced math, ending in AP calculus, AND got all As, then you probably would have done well in the math section of the SAT or ACT and adding that score wouldn't have provided any additional information. That's how it was explained on the college admissions podcast I was listening to the other day.


.
One other spot to look for info: College Confidential. When we were going through the application process with DS, his school used Naviance but I can't remember if it had data on the scholarships students had been offered? I found a lot of the scholarship info on College Confidential. I'd search for colleges and then look at the stats people were posting who had been admitted. DS's experience mostly ran true to what we saw on College Confidential.

If you're in the Paying for College 101 FB group, which is run by Road2College, then you'll see that they created a College Insights tool. I think you may be able to use parts of it for free, but if you pay $25 a month (during the time you're creating your college list ideally) you'll get access to the crowdsourced data bank of schools and actual applicants' merit and need-based awards based on GPA, test scores, and family income. I found it extremely helpful to see what the average and maximum merit awards were at the schools DS1 applied to, which gave me the info I needed to be successful in our appeal. All the info in easy to search tables, instead of searching through hundreds of posts on College Confidential.

https://collegeinsights.road2college.com/

Also, DS1's school used to use Naviance but switched to Scoir last year. I think they're pretty similar and we had access to the Scattergrams like on Naviance. So if your school doesn't use Naviance ask if they use Scoir.

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[KrisM]

I'm not sure, he's a junior this year and only worked this hard for SAT so he could have alternate entry to National Merit scholarships. We think it's visible right now through his college board profile, for that search function. But yes, hopefully there will be an opportunity for him to provide the score even if they're not asking.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using TapatalkHaving National Merit listed will be an indicator of his test score even if it's not stated outright. They will know a minimum level anyway.

DS1 was working on an email to his school counselor and I had him as the question about Naviance. Maybe we are just missing it.

I have told DS that he needs to get at least some applications in before school starts at the end of August. Some are pretty straightforward and easy. So hopefully in June we can make a list and order it for applying. He's going to an engineering camp in July and that will give him a taste of dorm living and he'll learn about the different types of engineering a little more. I'm hoping that helps narrow down where he wants to apply too.

[Moneypenny]

I highly recommend this book that StantonHyde linked to on another college thread. It does a great job of explaining the selection process. Essentially it’s different for every college. Each college places an emphasis on different student qualities and strengths. And every year they tend to shift their selection guidelines to suit different needs- they might need more full-paying students one year than another, maybe trying to fill certain quotas of ethnicity, SES etc. Its an easy and fascinating read that basically says, do your best in high school, do what you can to stand out, prove with your high school course choices that you truly want into a specific program, and know that even perfect-on-paper students might be rejected for reasons they can’t control. It’s a crap shoot.

https://www.jeffselingo.com/book/who-gets-in-and-why/

I've worked in Enrollment Management for 20+ years. This is exactly right. Whether or not you get into a particular college really has shockingly little to do with you and your accomplishments. There's an entire industry set up to make you think otherwise.

[Moneypenny]

argh - double post

[erosenst]

I've worked in Enrollment Management for 20+ years. This is exactly right. Whether or not you get into a particular college really has shockingly little to do with you and your accomplishments. There's an entire industry set up to make you think otherwise.

That was actually my biggest learning from the book (bolding is mine). I knew it was a total crapshoot. I (naively in hindsight) didn't realize how much of a business it has become - from targeting high SES areas with mail, to buying partial lists to spam with email to <add many more things>. For those who haven't read it yet my ohter big learning was the role competitive athletics play in admissions - there are the same number of athletes per team at a tiny school as there are at the huge state schools. That means the percentage of competitive athletes at small schools is geometrically higher than at the large state schools and it becomse a HUGE hook there. While it doesn't impact DD's search (she wants a BIG school) it would have a huge impact if my non-athlete daughter wanted a small school, and i'd encourage a much much broader net of applications.

One other learning, mostly from the book but a little as DD gets further in the process, is how much it varies school to school. One of hers doesn't take recommendations. Doesn't track demonstrated interest. And extracurriculars are weighted much less than grades and essays.

So - back to ... it's gonna be a long year. And yes, it's almost a year. One of her top choices doesn't announce until March....sigh.

[gatorsmom]

He's going to an engineering camp in July and that will give him a taste of dorm living and he'll learn about the different types of engineering a little more. I'm hoping that helps narrow down where he wants to apply too.

Kris, do you mind me asking what engineering camp your ds is going to? We really wanted Ds1 to have a sleep over experience (or several) but we have been unable to find one at the colleges he’s interested in. He applied and got into an engineering camp at the Colorado School of Mines and he’s really excited about the project they are going to work on, but we were surprised they aren’t letting the kids sleep on campus. Ds1’s other school he liked, MSOE is not offering summer camps at all. He’s also interested in your alma mater but didn’t check into their summer programs once he had decided on CSM.

[KrisM]

Kris, do you mind me asking what engineering camp your ds is going to? We really wanted Ds1 to have a sleep over experience (or several) but we have been unable to find one at the colleges he’s interested in. He applied and got into an engineering camp at the Colorado School of Mines and he’s really excited about the project they are going to work on, but we were surprised they aren’t letting the kids sleep on campus. Ds1’s other school he liked, MSOE is not offering summer camps at all. He’s also interested in your alma mater but didn’t check into their summer programs once he had decided on CSM.He's going to Catapult at Rose Hulman. They are staying in dorms! I had a hard time finding something in person that worked around marching band.

Michigan Tech is doing in person too. I think everything else I had bookmarked in past years is virtual this year.

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[Percycat]

Gatorsmom -- Missouri S&T is hosting on campus summer camps this year. I'm not sure if there are still openings or if your son is interested in coming to Missouri. You can learn more about them here:

https://futurestudents.mst.edu/summer-camps/

I went to Jackling Institute when I was in high school --- I wound up studying engineering, but went to a different school after the camp (I realized I wanted a school that had more non-engineering programs, like music, and wanted to be in a sorority). On campus camps are fantastic ways to check out a school.

[gatorsmom]

He's going to Catapult at Rose Hulman. They are staying in dorms! I had a hard time finding something in person that worked around marching band.

Michigan Tech is doing in person too. I think everything else I had bookmarked in past years is virtual this year.

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I definitely need to check put Michigan Tech. That school is high on his list too. Thanks for letting me know.

Darn! I wish I had known that a month ago. His summer is really filling up.

[gatorsmom]

Gatorsmom -- Missouri S&T is hosting on campus summer camps this year. I'm not sure if there are still openings or if your son is interested in coming to Missouri. You can learn more about them here:

https://futurestudents.mst.edu/summer-camps/

I went to Jackling Institute when I was in high school --- I wound up studying engineering, but went to a different school after the camp (I realized I wanted a school that had more non-engineering programs, like music, and wanted to be in a sorority). On campus camps are fantastic ways to check out a school.

Ita worth looking into further . Thanks for the tip!

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

He's going to Catapult at Rose Hulman. They are staying in dorms! I had a hard time finding something in person that worked around marching band.


I went to this, many years ago! The very first year they had girls, I think. Rose Hulman used to be a men's only school.

[KrisM]

I went to this, many years ago! The very first year they had girls, I think. Rose Hulman used to be a men's only school.

I didn't know that! Fun!