Myocarditis post vaccination

[KpbS]

Seems to be a potentially serious side effect that can effect adolescents and well as young adults, mostly male.

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/

[o_mom]

This was discussed in the other thread, but right now the number of cases does not seem to be higher than would normally be expected in this population. They say that in the article you linked, but buried it pretty deep in there. They also mention that myocarditis is a known complication of COVID infection.

[MSWR0319]

They’ve been looking at it in Israel for awhile. I’ve also read in many articles that the number of cases they are seeing is not above the normal number expected for this age range in general, like PP said. We do know that covid has caused a lot of myocarditis in this population, as a side effect. My son had a ton of tests ran when he passed out earlier this year because they wanted to rule out myocarditis from covid as a cause. The dr said they’re even seeing a lot of it in asymptomatic cases.

[bisous]

I think this will be something to watch and I'm glad they're tracking everything.

[twowhat?]

It's definitely something to watch (which they're doing). I think it's going to be super messy to dissect. So many kids and probably young adults have had asymptomatic or mild covid infections that may not have been verified, and separating out vaccine effects from effects due to prior infection is going to be...super messy.

I'm not alarmed yet...but will definitely be watching. One of my DDs has a mild mitral valve insufficiency so I definitely want to see what they're able to figure out. My kids also have had virtually zero chance for prior covid exposure so if they have a vaccine side effect, I could 99.8% confidently say it was due to the vaccine and not due to prior infection.

We will stay tuned. We plan to move forward with dose #2 as scheduled unless something more concerning is determined.

[m4nash]

Myocarditis is scary and I am glad they are tracking it. My father had myocarditis as a side effect of an enterovirus when he was 41 and I was 9 years old. His heart swelled up 3 times normal size and his heart function was below 10% when he finally sought medical attention. He ended up having a heart transplant (1st of 2 heart transplants before he passed away at 46 years old.).

That said, my boys who are 12 and 15 years old both have had their first covid vaccine and will get their second shot next week. This will definitely be something I will keep an eye out for symptoms of after their final shots, but I don't think I will be excessively concerned about it.

[nfceagles]

Once vaccinated is it possible to detect a past COVID infection with an antibody test??? Is there any way to know if the antibodies are from infection or the vaccine?

Too late for me and my half vax’d kids, but kind of makes me want an antibody test prior to vaccination to know for sure. I do think there are a lot of kids within unknown COVID infections.


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[twowhat?]

Once vaccinated is it possible to detect a past COVID infection with an antibody test??? Is there any way to know if the antibodies are from infection or the vaccine?

Too late for me and my half vax’d kids, but kind of makes me want an antibody test prior to vaccination to know for sure. I do think there are a lot of kids within unknown COVID infections.


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That's part of where it gets tricky. Both the vaccine as well as natural infection will generate antibodies against the spike protein, specifically the receptor binding domain of the spike protein. However, a natural infection should also generate antibodies against other parts of the spike protein and the nucleocapsid. Only an antibody test that can specifically detect antibodies generated against non-RBD portions of the spike protein or the nucleocapsid would indicate prior natural infection.

[MSWR0319]

Once vaccinated is it possible to detect a past COVID infection with an antibody test??? Is there any way to know if the antibodies are from infection or the vaccine?

Too late for me and my half vax’d kids, but kind of makes me want an antibody test prior to vaccination to know for sure. I do think there are a lot of kids within unknown COVID infections.


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I don't know the answer to your question (I'm guessing no, but I have no idea), but did want to mention that when we took DS in for passing out the doctor told us that is she ran an antibody test it would only tell her if he had had a type of coronavirus. So he could have had a past "cold coronavirus" but the test came back positive and not actual Covid. She told me if it was negative it was negative, but if it wasn't positive it was only positive for any type of coronavirus. She said places like the Red Cross were running more specialized tests that were specifically for Covid-19 antibodies but not the one the medical group ran. I didn't really fully understand why they couldn't run the specific one, but we decided not to do it since all we were looking for was a past covid infection that could have caused heart issues.

You have a great point though. Maybe these people had a past covid infection and didn't know it and that's what the myocarditis is from. It would be useful to know these things before covid shots so we could rule out/confirm the cause being from the shot.

[smilequeen]

Once vaccinated is it possible to detect a past COVID infection with an antibody test??? Is there any way to know if the antibodies are from infection or the vaccine?

Too late for me and my half vax’d kids, but kind of makes me want an antibody test prior to vaccination to know for sure. I do think there are a lot of kids within unknown COVID infections.


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I can’t interpret farther than this but when I donated blood I got a reactive result on the antibody test. It was always negative before. This is the explanation they give with the difference between positive and reactive.

https://www.redcrossblood.org/donate-blood/dlp/covid-19-antibody-test-details.html

[ang79]

Once vaccinated is it possible to detect a past COVID infection with an antibody test??? Is there any way to know if the antibodies are from infection or the vaccine?

Too late for me and my half vax’d kids, but kind of makes me want an antibody test prior to vaccination to know for sure. I do think there are a lot of kids within unknown COVID infections.


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This is what I was wondering. Maybe those that are having this heart condition had asymptmatic Covid in the past and didn't know they had it? I'm glad they are looking into it, but how can they really connect if it was the vaccine that caused it if they don't know if the person had Covid prior to the shot? And I bet this will deter more people from getting vaccinated, especially in the young adult age group that they are seeing more infections in now.

[Kindra178]

This has really scared me!


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[MSWR0319]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/health/vaccine-myocarditis-kids/index.html

[Globetrotter]

While we have a right to know ASAP, given the propensity for misinformation and misunderstanding (because how many people can take the time to investigate or even have the ability to do so) I kind of wish they would take a breath before publishing these things. Every time so far it’s turned out to be “similar to baseline.”

[Kindra178]

I follow Tracy Hoag on Twitter. Md/PhD. She concludes that myocarditis is not similar to baseline.

I am so frustrated with the CDC. Dr. Walensky recently doubled/tripled down on the outside transmission rate.

No one is believable anymore.

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[MSWR0319]

I follow Tracy Hoag on Twitter. Md/PhD. She concludes that myocarditis is not similar to baseline.

I am so frustrated with the CDC. Dr. Walensky recently doubled/tripled down on the outside transmission rate.

No one is believable anymore.

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I don't have twitter. Any chance you can share exactly what she said?

[3isEnough]

I follow Tracy Hoag on Twitter. Md/PhD. She concludes that myocarditis is not similar to baseline.

I am so frustrated with the CDC. Dr. Walensky recently doubled/tripled down on the outside transmission rate.

No one is believable anymore.

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Can you provide a link to her twitter pls. I’ve done several searches and keep landing on some other Tracy Hoag.

[Kindra178]

https://twitter.com/tracybethhoeg/status/1397726276371116034?s=21


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[twowhat?]

I saw this Tracy Hoeg comment on a post from YLE and spent a few min looking into her. I'm not so sure about her, to be honest. Her posts on FB seemed a bit one-sided and she's no longer on that platform (not that that says anything really). She's not a cardiologist or an infectious disease expert or an immunologist...she has a degree in epidemiology but I don't feel like her posts acknowledge some of the caveats of the data...she seems to like to take numbers and just crunch them.

I'm not saying she's not right, and there may actually be a link between the vaccine and myocarditis...I'm just not really convinced about the way she goes about her arguments.

Interested in seeing how this data all plays out...

[3isEnough]

I really need to read up on this. My 15yo has heart issues (bicuspid aortic valve and aortic dilitation) and will need heart surgery in the next few years. He had covid sometime during the last year (we found out in Feb that he has antibodies) and just received his first covid vaccine last week. I’m concerned both due to his heart issues and because he already had covid, so I have some reading to do before his next vaccine dose.

[twowhat?]

I really need to read up on this. My 15yo has heart issues (bicuspid aortic valve and aortic dilitation) and will need heart surgery in the next few years. He had covid sometime during the last year (we found out in Feb that he has antibodies) and just received his first covid vaccine last week. I’m concerned both due to his heart issues and because he already had covid, so I have some reading to do before his next vaccine dose.

What does his cardiologist say? I'm just curious to hear an opinion from someone in the field.

[MSWR0319]

I saw this Tracy Hoeg comment on a post from YLE and spent a few min looking into her. I'm not so sure about here, to be honest. Her posts on FB seemed a bit one-sided and she's no longer on that platform (not that that says anything really). She's not a cardiologist or an infectious disease expert or an immunologist...she has a degree in epidemiology but I don't feel like her posts acknowledge some of the caveats of the data...she seems to like to take numbers and just crunch them.

I'm not saying she's not right, and there may actually be a link between the vaccine and myocarditis...I'm just not really convinced about the way she goes about her arguments.

Interested in seeing how this data all plays out...

I'm not saying she's wrong either, but I don't feel like she's giving me much to really believe her. It looks like she advocates no masks in schools, which doesn't seem very logical to me right now. I do think there's a chance it's vaccine related, since we know viruses causes myocarditis. We go to the pediatric cardiologist next week. I'm planning on asking him what he thinks. Our family doctor said the amount of myocarditis they're seeing in this age group post covid infection, is much higher than what they've seen so far post vaccine.

[Myira]

I saw this Tracy Hoeg comment on a post from YLE and spent a few min looking into her. I'm not so sure about here, to be honest. Her posts on FB seemed a bit one-sided and she's no longer on that platform (not that that says anything really). She's not a cardiologist or an infectious disease expert or an immunologist...she has a degree in epidemiology but I don't feel like her posts acknowledge some of the caveats of the data...she seems to like to take numbers and just crunch them.

I'm not saying she's not right, and there may actually be a link between the vaccine and myocarditis...I'm just not really convinced about the way she goes about her arguments.

Interested in seeing how this data all plays out...

Just today a friend shared an article in wapo written by Hoeg, where she vehemently tried to make a case for why masks are not required for kids in schools anymore. The friend that shared it is a md so it gets a bit tricky if I just don’t share the view! Thanks and nice to hear that moms here on BBB feel the same way about this stance for no masks. Sorry for the digression on this thread. I’m anxiously reading all posts.


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[Kindra178]

Just today a friend shared an article in wapo written by Hoeg, where she vehemently tried to make a case for why masks are not required for kids in schools anymore. The friend that shared it is a md so it gets a bit tricky if I just don’t share the view! Thanks and nice to hear that moms here on BBB feel the same way about this stance for no masks. Sorry for the digression on this thread. I’m anxiously reading all posts.


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Thanks. I follow a few folks that are disgusted with how schools failed children this year. Some of those folks have wandered into the anti mask space. I do think it’s crazy that kids are wearing masks at recess but obviously I’m a proponent of masks otherwise. Here is the piece below. It seems quite reasonable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/05/26/its-time-children-finally-get-back-normal-life/%3foutputType=amp


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[twowhat?]

I definitely think there needs to be a return to some semblance of normal for kids not old enough to be vaccinated. I struggle with this one because the virus will keep mutating as long as it's spreading, but it IS true that the younger kids especially do very well when it comes to natural covid infection. I also think there's a lot of unreported asymptomatic/mild infection among younger schoolchildren, and not acknowledging this caveat of the data on confirmed covid cases/transmissions in school in order to make a case for "no masks in school" is a little irresponsible.

I think that unvaccinated kids need to keep their masks on indoors to continue to mitigate spread until we can get a larger proportion of the population vaccinated but that is totally do-able for the purposes of school. Our district has been open in person all year with masked kids and generally low (documented) cases and the vast majority of these kids adapt very well to mask wearing in school. I agree masks not needed outside for recess or PE. I agree that vaccinated teachers can ditch the masks. And I agree schools need to be open in person. If unvaccinated kids can keep masks on in school through fall/winter flu season and to allow more of the community to get vaccinated and for us to get a better feel for variant spread, that would be AMAZING. That would also help out those high-risk kids to also be able to return safely to school. Those are my opinions. :)

[acmom]

I definitely think there needs to be a return to some semblance of normal for kids not old enough to be vaccinated. I struggle with this one because the virus will keep mutating as long as it's spreading, but it IS true that the younger kids especially do very well when it comes to natural covid infection. I also think there's a lot of unreported asymptomatic/mild infection among younger schoolchildren, and not acknowledging this caveat of the data on confirmed covid cases/transmissions in school in order to make a case for "no masks in school" is a little irresponsible.

I think that unvaccinated kids need to keep their masks on indoors to continue to mitigate spread until we can get a larger proportion of the population vaccinated but that is totally do-able for the purposes of school. Our district has been open in person all year with masked kids and generally low (documented) cases and the vast majority of these kids adapt very well to mask wearing in school. I agree masks not needed outside for recess or PE. I agree that vaccinated teachers can ditch the masks. And I agree schools need to be open in person. If unvaccinated kids can keep masks on in school through fall/winter flu season and to allow more of the community to get vaccinated and for us to get a better feel for variant spread, that would be AMAZING. That would also help out those high-risk kids to also be able to return safely to school. Those are my opinions. :)

I agree with all of this. My DH is a physician in a pediatric sub-speciality and has been dealing with lots of Covid related kids issues, more so now than at the beginning of the pandemic. He has taken care of a lot of kids with MIS-C and many never knew they had Covid to begin with and many were quite sick. Even the ones that weren't had a big disruption to their lives bc they are out of sports/physical activities for at least 3 months.

For what its worth, DH is not an alarmist (professionally or personally) and we have taken a balanced approach with our kids at this point- they are back in school full time and playing sports and playing with friends outside, but definitely still taking precautions like masking and not socializing indoors or dining in restaurants with our kids bc they are not vaccinated. We are definitely hoping masking at school (when indoors) will continue for kids until they are able to get vaccinated.

Our oldest has had the 1st shot and will get the 2nd next week. DH's feeling on the post vax myocarditis is that it is a very low number and not known whether it is related or not. He has seen many more kids with myocarditis from Covid and that is known link at this point.

[bisous]

I definitely think there needs to be a return to some semblance of normal for kids not old enough to be vaccinated. I struggle with this one because the virus will keep mutating as long as it's spreading, but it IS true that the younger kids especially do very well when it comes to natural covid infection. I also think there's a lot of unreported asymptomatic/mild infection among younger schoolchildren, and not acknowledging this caveat of the data on confirmed covid cases/transmissions in school in order to make a case for "no masks in school" is a little irresponsible.

I think that unvaccinated kids need to keep their masks on indoors to continue to mitigate spread until we can get a larger proportion of the population vaccinated but that is totally do-able for the purposes of school. Our district has been open in person all year with masked kids and generally low (documented) cases and the vast majority of these kids adapt very well to mask wearing in school. I agree masks not needed outside for recess or PE. I agree that vaccinated teachers can ditch the masks. And I agree schools need to be open in person. If unvaccinated kids can keep masks on in school through fall/winter flu season and to allow more of the community to get vaccinated and for us to get a better feel for variant spread, that would be AMAZING. That would also help out those high-risk kids to also be able to return safely to school. Those are my opinions. :)

I agree with all these points. I also just don't think masks are that big a deal so we should keep them indoors and when someone makes the argument to ditch them I give serious side eye. I mean, all the other points are great but this stance is so discordant. I hope other pediatricians and cardiologists will weigh in on the myocarditis issue.

[MSWR0319]

I agree with all of this. My DH is a physician in a pediatric sub-speciality and has been dealing with lots of Covid related kids issues, more so now than at the beginning of the pandemic. He has taken care of a lot of kids with MIS-C and many never knew they had Covid to begin with and many were quite sick. Even the ones that weren't had a big disruption to their lives bc they are out of sports/physical activities for at least 3 months.

For what its worth, DH is not an alarmist (professionally or personally) and we have taken a balanced approach with our kids at this point- they are back in school full time and playing sports and playing with friends outside, but definitely still taking precautions like masking and not socializing indoors or dining in restaurants with our kids bc they are not vaccinated. We are definitely hoping masking at school (when indoors) will continue for kids until they are able to get vaccinated.

Our oldest has had the 1st shot and will get the 2nd next week. DH's feeling on the post vax myocarditis is that it is a very low number and not known whether it is related or not. He has seen many more kids with myocarditis from Covid and that is known link at this point.

Thank you for sharing. This is pretty much where we are with DS2 who is 9. DS1 will get his second shot next week so I'm not too worried about him. We let DS2 play outside with friends, but we're still masking if indoors and not socializing or eating in restaurants. It makes me feel better that others are doing this as well. In my area, it's a free for all and parents are annoyed my kid can't come inside to play.

[JustMe]

Ds is 15 and getting his second Pfizer vaccine in a little over a week. I want to make sure I know which symptoms to watch out for in term of potential Myocarditis; I understand its not very common and we are definitely going forward with the vaccine, just want to keep my eyes open for potential concerns. Ds has some health anxiety, so its going to be tough as I normally would not ask him too much about symptoms as that can create anxiety for him. Anyway, I read this in an article that quoted one of the teens who developed Myocarditis and would love any other info people have.

“I felt like my chest was really tight and my throat was really swollen up, like my lymph nodes and neck,” Morud said. “I was winded just standing up from a sitting position,” he said

ETA: found some good info in this article https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/old-lyme-teen-shares-story-of-heart-problems-2nd-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine/2495436/

[jgenie]

Thank you for sharing. This is pretty much where we are with DS2 who is 9. DS1 will get his second shot next week so I'm not too worried about him. We let DS2 play outside with friends, but we're still masking if indoors and not socializing or eating in restaurants. It makes me feel better that others are doing this as well. In my area, it's a free for all and parents are annoyed my kid can't come inside to play.

This is our experience as well. DS2 and his friends are unvaccinated. All his friends are back to life as normal.

[3isEnough]

What does his cardiologist say? I'm just curious to hear an opinion from someone in the field.

My husband (who is a dr) reached out to the infectious disease dr in his practice to ask his opinion about delaying the 2d dose for my son and is awaiting his input. We will also reach out to his cardiologist to get his opinion. We like our cardiologist but he’s lacking in some areas, and proactive input/advice is one of those areas. Our (pediatric) cardiologist did tell me at our visit back in Jan that he is seeing a lot of MIS-C from covid infection in children.

[ang79]

Ds is 15 and getting his second Pfizer vaccine in a little over a week. I want to make sure I know which symptoms to watch out for in term of potential Myocarditis; I understand its not very common and we are definitely going forward with the vaccine, just want to keep my eyes open for potential concerns. Ds has some health anxiety, so its going to be tough as I normally would not ask him too much about symptoms as that can create anxiety for him. Anyway, I read this in an article that quoted one of the teens who developed Myocarditis and would love any other info people have.

“I felt like my chest was really tight and my throat was really swollen up, like my lymph nodes and neck,” Morud said. “I was winded just standing up from a sitting position,” he said

ETA: found some good info in this article https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/old-lyme-teen-shares-story-of-heart-problems-2nd-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine/2495436/

Thank you for sharing. My girls are getting their second dose on June 7 and we leave for the beach on the 12th. I was curious what symptoms to watch for with this condition.


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[wendibird22]

Thank you for sharing. This is pretty much where we are with DS2 who is 9. DS1 will get his second shot next week so I'm not too worried about him. We let DS2 play outside with friends, but we're still masking if indoors and not socializing or eating in restaurants. It makes me feel better that others are doing this as well. In my area, it's a free for all and parents are annoyed my kid can't come inside to play.

Same here. Dd1 gets dose two this coming week. DD2 isn’t eligible. We only permit her to play outdoors. I know she’s the only kid with such restrictions. Heck her 11yr old friend is working at her family business, unmasked, and engaging with all the customers evenings and weekends. And this friend has a younger sibling at home with juvenile diabetes. I just shake my head at the lack of precautions being taken. But that’s the norm where I live.


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[nfceagles]

I definitely think there needs to be a return to some semblance of normal for kids not old enough to be vaccinated. I struggle with this one because the virus will keep mutating as long as it's spreading, but it IS true that the younger kids especially do very well when it comes to natural covid infection. I also think there's a lot of unreported asymptomatic/mild infection among younger schoolchildren, and not acknowledging this caveat of the data on confirmed covid cases/transmissions in school in order to make a case for "no masks in school" is a little irresponsible.

I think that unvaccinated kids need to keep their masks on indoors to continue to mitigate spread until we can get a larger proportion of the population vaccinated but that is totally do-able for the purposes of school. Our district has been open in person all year with masked kids and generally low (documented) cases and the vast majority of these kids adapt very well to mask wearing in school. I agree masks not needed outside for recess or PE. I agree that vaccinated teachers can ditch the masks. And I agree schools need to be open in person. If unvaccinated kids can keep masks on in school through fall/winter flu season and to allow more of the community to get vaccinated and for us to get a better feel for variant spread, that would be AMAZING. That would also help out those high-risk kids to also be able to return safely to school. Those are my opinions. :)

Such a good summary that I agree with. My kids are half vaccinated, soon to be done. I don’t envy those of you navigating this time with younger kids. Hang in there. We have allowed outdoor socializing, but not indoor, and often felt like the only ones even in a pretty careful area. The only person I know personally who died of COVID was a 13 year old boy at the elementary school I was PTO President at. He was medically fragile as he was seriously injured by a fallen tree after hurricane Sandy, but he still mattered and was a tragic loss.


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[MSWR0319]

DS had an appointment this morning with his pediatric cardiologist. I asked him his opinion about the myocarditis, and he said he doesn't think it's related based on the studies he's seen and the numbers that are being reported. He said they're doing the right thing by investigating it, but he suspects it will be unrelated and if by chance it's not unrelated, he's seeing worse from actual covid infections and the case numbers of myocarditis are super low. He also mentioned that because so many people are getting vaccinated all at once, things are going to pop up that seem related but really aren't from the shot. It's just that the number of those getting the shot makes it seem like that's the cause of the myocarditis because everyone got the shot. He mentioned that because it's an MRNA vaccine it's not introducing virus into the body so it really can't be causing myocarditis like other vaccines that introduce the virus into your body. That part made sense. He talked about it very thoroughly so I hope I got everything right that he said. He was actually more worried about my son having anaphylaxis from it than anything else because of his history of anaphylactic food allergies, which our allergist said it not a worry and wasn't even on my radar. So I feel good about DS getting his second shot on Thursday.

[KpbS]

MSWR0319, thanks so much for the ped cardiologist update. Very glad to hear his thoughts.

[jgenie]

MSWR0319, thanks so much for the ped cardiologist update. Very glad to hear his thoughts.

:yeahthat: Thank you for sharing!

[marymoo86]

DS had an appointment this morning with his pediatric cardiologist. I asked him his opinion about the myocarditis, and he said he doesn't think it's related based on the studies he's seen and the numbers that are being reported. He said they're doing the right thing by investigating it, but he suspects it will be unrelated and if by chance it's not unrelated, he's seeing worse from actual covid infections and the case numbers of myocarditis are super low. He also mentioned that because so many people are getting vaccinated all at once, things are going to pop up that seem related but really aren't from the shot. It's just that the number of those getting the shot makes it seem like that's the cause of the myocarditis because everyone got the shot. He mentioned that because it's an MRNA vaccine it's not introducing virus into the body so it really can't be causing myocarditis like other vaccines that introduce the virus into your body. That part made sense. He talked about it very thoroughly so I hope I got everything right that he said. He was actually more worried about my son having anaphylaxis from it than anything else because of his history of anaphylactic food allergies, which our allergist said it not a worry and wasn't even on my radar. So I feel good about DS getting his second shot on Thursday.

I wish I could remember where I read about it but it recall the issue is the spike protein not inactivated virus.

[twowhat?]

DS had an appointment this morning with his pediatric cardiologist. I asked him his opinion about the myocarditis, and he said he doesn't think it's related based on the studies he's seen and the numbers that are being reported. He said they're doing the right thing by investigating it, but he suspects it will be unrelated and if by chance it's not unrelated, he's seeing worse from actual covid infections and the case numbers of myocarditis are super low. He also mentioned that because so many people are getting vaccinated all at once, things are going to pop up that seem related but really aren't from the shot. It's just that the number of those getting the shot makes it seem like that's the cause of the myocarditis because everyone got the shot. He mentioned that because it's an MRNA vaccine it's not introducing virus into the body so it really can't be causing myocarditis like other vaccines that introduce the virus into your body. That part made sense. He talked about it very thoroughly so I hope I got everything right that he said. He was actually more worried about my son having anaphylaxis from it than anything else because of his history of anaphylactic food allergies, which our allergist said it not a worry and wasn't even on my radar. So I feel good about DS getting his second shot on Thursday.

Thanks for updating! Definitely reassuring to hear this from an expert. My girls have their 2nd shots on Friday and we’re looking forward to being on the road to fully vaccinated as a family!!

[3isEnough]

MSWR0319, thank you for providing the info from your pediatric cardiologist, that’s really helpful to hear. As mentioned above, my 15yo DS has a serious heart condition, already had covid and had his 1st vaccine dose. My husband spoke with the pediatric infectious disease doc at his work today. He said that doc is really sharp and very highly regarded in the community. Anyway, the doc consulted with the pediatric cardiologist and they agreed that the risk of infection from covid variants or under-protection due to skipping the 2d dose is higher than the risk associated with doing the 2d dose. He said we could delay the 2d dose if we want, but I’m not sure what that would get us.

[MSWR0319]

MSWR0319, thank you for providing the info from your pediatric cardiologist, that’s really helpful to hear. As mentioned above, my 15yo DS has a serious heart condition, already had covid and had his 1st vaccine dose. My husband spoke with the pediatric infectious disease doc at his work today. He said that doc is really sharp and very highly regarded in the community. Anyway, the doc consulted with the pediatric cardiologist and they agreed that the risk of infection from covid variants or under-protection due to skipping the 2d dose is higher than the risk associated with doing the 2d dose. He said we could delay the 2d dose if we want, but I’m not sure what that would get us.

Thank you for sharing as well! It’s nice to hear other doctors that agree it’s riskier to not get the second dose.

I remembered something else our doctor said. He did say that even if it is found to be associated with the vaccine, he felt that it was something like the J&J issue where millions of people get it and only a handful get the rare side effect. He said “some people’s bodies are just weird and do weird things” and that will happen no matter what we give them.

[carolinamama]

DS had an appointment this morning with his pediatric cardiologist. I asked him his opinion about the myocarditis, and he said he doesn't think it's related based on the studies he's seen and the numbers that are being reported. He said they're doing the right thing by investigating it, but he suspects it will be unrelated and if by chance it's not unrelated, he's seeing worse from actual covid infections and the case numbers of myocarditis are super low. He also mentioned that because so many people are getting vaccinated all at once, things are going to pop up that seem related but really aren't from the shot. It's just that the number of those getting the shot makes it seem like that's the cause of the myocarditis because everyone got the shot. He mentioned that because it's an MRNA vaccine it's not introducing virus into the body so it really can't be causing myocarditis like other vaccines that introduce the virus into your body. That part made sense. He talked about it very thoroughly so I hope I got everything right that he said. He was actually more worried about my son having anaphylaxis from it than anything else because of his history of anaphylactic food allergies, which our allergist said it not a worry and wasn't even on my radar. So I feel good about DS getting his second shot on Thursday.

Thank you for sharing this update/info. DS1 gets his 2nd dose tomorrow and DS2 next week so I've been watching the data closely. I feel comfortable completing their vaccinations based on everything I've read, including your update.

[twowhat?]

MSWR0319, thank you for providing the info from your pediatric cardiologist, that’s really helpful to hear. As mentioned above, my 15yo DS has a serious heart condition, already had covid and had his 1st vaccine dose. My husband spoke with the pediatric infectious disease doc at his work today. He said that doc is really sharp and very highly regarded in the community. Anyway, the doc consulted with the pediatric cardiologist and they agreed that the risk of infection from covid variants or under-protection due to skipping the 2d dose is higher than the risk associated with doing the 2d dose. He said we could delay the 2d dose if we want, but I’m not sure what that would get us.

Thank you for your update as well! It's reassuring to hear this from an infectious disease expert and a cardiology expert. I have not seen anything from either the FDA or the CDC vaccine advisory committees that there have been any meetings to discuss this. That's not to say there's not an association, and there very well could be, but I agree that it comes down to balancing risks and benefits. We know what to look for, so for me I will be keeping a closer eye on my kids in the week or two following the 2nd dose. We're registered with v-safe and will put in our daily data for science purposes.

[AngB]

DS had an appointment this morning with his pediatric cardiologist. I asked him his opinion about the myocarditis, and he said he doesn't think it's related based on the studies he's seen and the numbers that are being reported. He said they're doing the right thing by investigating it, but he suspects it will be unrelated and if by chance it's not unrelated, he's seeing worse from actual covid infections and the case numbers of myocarditis are super low. He also mentioned that because so many people are getting vaccinated all at once, things are going to pop up that seem related but really aren't from the shot. It's just that the number of those getting the shot makes it seem like that's the cause of the myocarditis because everyone got the shot. He mentioned that because it's an MRNA vaccine it's not introducing virus into the body so it really can't be causing myocarditis like other vaccines that introduce the virus into your body. That part made sense. He talked about it very thoroughly so I hope I got everything right that he said. He was actually more worried about my son having anaphylaxis from it than anything else because of his history of anaphylactic food allergies, which our allergist said it not a worry and wasn't even on my radar. So I feel good about DS getting his second shot on Thursday.

Thank you for sharing this.

[marymoo86]

New info from Israel appear 16-24 males are more at risk


"The clinical trial for 12- to 15-year-olds included a little over 2,000 participants, half of whom were in the placebo group. If an adverse event such as myocarditis occurs in one out of every 3,000 to 6,000 young males, as Mevorach estimates from his data, a trial with 1,000 people actually receiving the vaccine might not even see that event. In May, the FDA did not invite the advisory committee back when it extended the EUA for 12- to 15-year-olds."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/06/israel-detects-link-between-myocarditis-and-covid-vaccine.html

[marymoo86]

Myocarditis 12x more likely than Covid hospitalization

https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/status/1401237856379498498?s=20

[o_mom]

Myocarditis 12x more likely than Covid hospitalization

https://twitter.com/MonicaGandhi9/status/1401237856379498498?s=20

After reading through this and trying to make sense of her calculations, I am not sure I would trust this "back of an envelope" calculation. Especially as it is dependent on current rates of infection... Risk was estimated at 4x in March, but 12x now? It is not clear at all how or if this translates into long term comparison or if they adjusted for the background rate of myocarditis.

Even if it pans out, it does not change my decision in the end.

[MSWR0319]

After reading through this and trying to make sense of her calculations, I am not sure I would trust this "back of an envelope" calculation. Especially as it is dependent on current rates of infection... Risk was estimated at 4x in March, but 12x now? It is not clear at all how or if this translates into long term comparison or if they adjusted for the background rate of myocarditis.

Even if it pans out, it does not change my decision in the end.

:yeahthat:

The 12-15 age group just started getting second shots on Thurs/late Wed at the earliest. There's no data from them yet post 2nd vax so her 3 cases in 14-15 years olds are not related to the second shot since the data is from 5/28. Not to mention it says from VAERS data. VAERS data is just reported data, not known association yet. When I asked our pediatric cardiologist about the reports last week, he likened it to everyone reporting they got toe jam from the shot because everyone is getting the shot and many people have toe jam. Just because it's being reported doesn't mean the vaccine is the cause. He has seen horrible heart issues in kids from covid. I'm confident in our decision to vax. He said if the vaccine were a live virus (like smallpox) it would be more plausible because it is known that live virus vaccines can cause myocarditis, which only makes sense, since viruses can cause myocarditis. I actually just read an article about myocarditis and how its more prevalent in 16-24 year olds and double that in males vs females. Thus, the data currently coming out has to be studied to see if it really is related because this age group does get myocarditis. I'm not saying it's not related, because it could end up being proven that it is. Much like the rare reactions of blood clots from J&J shots.

[chlobo]

After reading through this and trying to make sense of her calculations, I am not sure I would trust this "back of an envelope" calculation. Especially as it is dependent on current rates of infection... Risk was estimated at 4x in March, but 12x now? It is not clear at all how or if this translates into long term comparison or if they adjusted for the background rate of myocarditis.

Even if it pans out, it does not change my decision in the end.

I'm curious if you head the article that was linked to about Israel and what you might have thought about that? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination . Obviously not definitive by any means, just one other data point to think about.

Also, I felt that her conclusion not to forgo the shot, but rather to delay the second dose for her teenage son to be very reasonable (from her perspective, everyone has to make their own decisions). From that perspective, I didn't find her overly alarmist or against the vaccination. More cautious.

[o_mom]

I'm curious if you head the article that was linked to about Israel and what you might have thought about that? https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination . Obviously not definitive by any means, just one other data point to think about.

Also, I felt that her conclusion not to forgo the shot, but rather to delay the second dose for her teenage son to be very reasonable (from her perspective, everyone has to make their own decisions). From that perspective, I didn't find her overly alarmist or against the vaccination. More cautious.

Yes, I read that one as well. I think it is worth more investigation and that in the end the true rate may be higher than background for certain populations. However, in the end there will need to be a holistic risk assessment, not just picking from a false dichotomy of "risk of this one event if you vaccinate vs. this one possible outcome if you get COVID".

[carolinamama]

I just listened to the most recent TWIV podcast clinical update this morning. It included a question/answer about this very topic, including delaying the second shot. It may be helpful for anyone grapping with the decision for their own DS. (Spoiler - Dr. Griffin feels comfortable giving his teenage son the second shot and gives his reasoning.)

[chlobo]

Yes, I read that one as well. I think it is worth more investigation and that in the end the true rate may be higher than background for certain populations. However, in the end there will need to be a holistic risk assessment, not just picking from a false dichotomy of "risk of this one event if you vaccinate vs. this one possible outcome if you get COVID".

That's a good point. I find nuance completely lacking in most discussions these days, at least the ones people try to have with me.

[bisous]

I just listened to the most recent TWIV podcast clinical update this morning. It included a question/answer about this very topic, including delaying the second shot. It may be helpful for anyone grapping with the decision for their own DS. (Spoiler - Dr. Griffin feels comfortable giving his teenage son the second shot and gives his reasoning.)

Not only this but also (and please correctly if I misheard this!) the incidences of myocarditis resolve within a matter of days and treatment with OTC NSAIDs.

[PZMommy]

My son’s friend was just diagnosed with this last Friday. It was a few days after his second dose. My own son is still not old enough. (Friend is a 12 yr old male).

[chlobo]

Not only this but also (and please correctly if I misheard this!) the incidences of myocarditis resolve within a matter of days and treatment with OTC NSAIDs.

One of the articles I was reading mentioned that the incidence of myocarditis in the UK is less than in the US an Israel. They were theorizing that it might possibly have to do with waiting longer to have the second dose. I think they said 12 weeks vs. 3 here. If that pans out to be true, I'd rather delay than risk myocarditis that may or may not resolve.

[MSWR0319]

I was just reading a few articles and the people who got myocarditis after the first dose had known covid cases in those articles. I wonder if there's any chance that these people getting myocarditis after the second dose had asymptotic cases and the third introduction of it to their body was enough to trigger this big inflammation reaction. The military has 14 reported cases after shots and 11 were with Moderna, 3 with Pfizer. One was after the first shot and that person had a previously known case of covid. I think there are so many possibilities of what could be causing it. I hope they figure out if it's related and if it is, what exactly is the trigger.

[ang79]

So I have not read the info out of Israel yet. What is the frequency of girls developing this complication? Most of what I’ve read in the US cases is that it is more likely in boys. My girls both got their second shot today, watching them both closely this week for symptoms.


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[chlobo]

So I have not read the info out of Israel yet. What is the frequency of girls developing this complication? Most of what I’ve read in the US cases is that it is more likely in boys. My girls both got their second shot today, watching them both closely this week for symptoms.


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I think what I read about Israel is that it mostly affected "young men" ages 16-24.

[mom2binsd]

DS is 15, had asymptomatic Covid back in late November. He had his second Pfizer shot this afternoon. First one no issues. Will see how this one goes.

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[MSWR0319]

Saw this article and thought it explained why they are recommending the shot well.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/13/health/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-questions-answers/index.html

I also read another article that I can't find the link to now that said some doctors think that many of these increased cases are not related to the vaccine, but to the fact that there is a big increase in cases of the viruses that are known to cause myocarditis. They think this is because teens and young people are out and about more and not taking the precautions like they should. Because we aren't masking like we did, these cases of other viruses are growing and this is a population known to see more myocarditis. They said because numbers are still low (thought higher than expected) it could be these viruses are causing it and it's just a coincidence that it's happening around the time of the shot. It's an interesting theory. Regardless of what they find, I've learned a lot about the condition and know what to watch for. I have two boys and had no idea they were at a higher risk for this condition in general.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Haven’t read the whole post, but a friend’s DS (13) has been in the hospital a week with myocarditis.


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[bisous]

Haven’t read the whole post, but a friend’s DS (13) has been in the hospital a week with myocarditis.


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Ooh. Wow. That's a couple of real life acquaintances of people here on the BBB. That's certainly concerning. DS2 is done and vaccinated without event now and I guess we were lucky! This will be something to watch for sure.

[MSWR0319]

Haven’t read the whole post, but a friend’s DS (13) has been in the hospital a week with myocarditis.


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I hope he recovers fully. Just out of curiosity, do you know if he had covid before?

I find myself thinking about this a lot. Is it the shot causing it solely or is something in the body recognizing that spike and attacking it because it was in the body before? Hopefully they'll figure this out soon.

[squimp]

There is a lot of mis-use of VAERS going on out there, not saying it's not happening but lots to wade through.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/antivaccine-activists-use-government-database-side-effects-scare-public

My 17-yo and most of her friends had the vaccine with no issues. Our county is at 74% of the population with one dose, have heard of 6 cases of myocarditis in the whole state, lots of 12-17 year-olds being vaccinated in my county (21% already have one dose).

Our hospitals are finding <1% of current COVID hospitalizations are in people who have been vaccinated. Turning the corner hopefully.

[essnce629]

DS2 had his 2nd dose of Pfizer today. We'll see how it goes. I thought of delaying until after the CDC (?) advisory meet on Friday that someone mentioned above, but we're flying on July 2nd and the only way for him to be 2 weeks past his 2nd dose is to get it by this Friday and I figure there probably won't be any announcements or new recommendations by then anyways. With flying and sleepaway camp coming up, for us it made sense to get it now. I'm pushing fluids/Gatorade and will keep an eye out for anything. DH had pericarditis when I was pregnant with DS2 and DS1's good friend just had myocarditis 2 months ago (pre-vaccine) so I think we have a good grasp on what to look out for.

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[JBaxter]

https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1404408955149991939?s=20

[klwa]

https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1404408955149991939?s=20

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/recent-mason-graduate-dies-after-virus-infection-heart-transplant/OKIRODR6HRDQDLJ72NKLLDVYC4/
Except the reporting states she had a viral infection (non-Covid) that caused the initial heart problems, rather than the vaccine.

[dogmom]

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/recent-mason-graduate-dies-after-virus-infection-heart-transplant/OKIRODR6HRDQDLJ72NKLLDVYC4/
Except the reporting states she had a viral infection (non-Covid) that caused the initial heart problems, rather than the vaccine.

I do hope one of the silver linings of this pandemic is we get a better handle on post-viral syndromes. There are a lot of them out there, but the numbers aren’t huge. One of the last syndromes that had a lot of experts were post-polio syndrome. Because of vaccines these huge outbreaks have been controlled, so we have the less frequent conditions we are trying to get a handle on. Guillian Barre, which I’ve had several work related experiences with, is often linked to some vaccines, but it’s much more common after having a virus. (Still very rare.) These myocarditis cases might be the same.

[jawilli4]

I do hope one of the silver linings of this pandemic is we get a better handle on post-viral syndromes.

Me, too! When DS was in first grade he came down with Henoch-Schonlein purpura after getting a cold. It was really scary. At its worse he could barely walk. DH had to carry him to the ER. I will spare details, but it also attacked his lungs. There were times he couldn't stop coughing and got kicked out of class numerous times because of it. (This lasted for many months so it wasn't like we could just keep him out of school.) At any rate, in talking to the school nurse, she said it was normally very rare but three boys in the school came down with it at the same time. It was definitely eye opening.

[NCGrandma]

I do hope one of the silver linings of this pandemic is we get a better handle on post-viral syndromes. There are a lot of them out there, but the numbers aren’t huge. One of the last syndromes that had a lot of experts were post-polio syndrome. Because of vaccines these huge outbreaks have been controlled, so we have the less frequent conditions we are trying to get a handle on. Guillian Barre, which I’ve had several work related experiences with, is often linked to some vaccines, but it’s much more common after having a virus. (Still very rare.) These myocarditis cases might be the same.

Excellent point — maybe some of the ID researchers and clinicians will turn their attention to post-viral syndromes, both COVID and others. Most of the post-polio syndrome folks are aging out or already gone. I have a neighbor at my CCRC whose post-polio symptoms were recognized fairly early but my impression is that she’s had a continuing challenge finding knowledgeable health care. And I remember Guillian Barre was once the subject of frequent PSAs (my DC continues to avoid aspirin!) but a lot of younger parents may not be as aware of it.


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[ahisma]

Your Local Epidemiologist addressed this today. It's not what I was hoping to see, but we did vaccinate our teen boys knowing that this was likely a risk. For us, this was a risk that we were comfortable assuming in the context of COVID impact.

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/an-update-on-myocarditis-cases?fbclid=IwAR2FcZz3XZCd92-AXANaUThlu7p8lH54ZjNFX7sDtqyseglgVjlMjZWifaA

[o_mom]

And I remember Guillian Barre was once the subject of frequent PSAs (my DC continues to avoid aspirin!) but a lot of younger parents may not be as aware of it.


Are you thinking of Reye's Syndrome?

[WatchingThemGrow]

I hope he recovers fully. Just out of curiosity, do you know if he had covid before?

I find myself thinking about this a lot. Is it the shot causing it solely or is something in the body recognizing that spike and attacking it because it was in the body before? Hopefully they'll figure this out soon.

His dad is a Neuro ICU doc and yes, they did have something horrible requiring both parents having albuterol for breathing at the beginning of the pandemic. It lasted about 21 days for the parents, not sure how long for him, but he may have had it before each parent. The mom said he also had pericarditis as well and is on a ton of heart meds, extremely restricted activities for 3 mos, still trying to get numbers down. Please pray for our friend. [emoji3531]


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[bisous]

Your Local Epidemiologist addressed this today. It's not what I was hoping to see, but we did vaccinate our teen boys knowing that this was likely a risk. For us, this was a risk that we were comfortable assuming in the context of COVID impact.

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/an-update-on-myocarditis-cases?fbclid=IwAR2FcZz3XZCd92-AXANaUThlu7p8lH54ZjNFX7sDtqyseglgVjlMjZWifaA

Great resource! Thanks!

[bisous]

His dad is a Neuro ICU doc and yes, they did have something horrible requiring both parents having albuterol for breathing at the beginning of the pandemic. It lasted about 21 days for the parents, not sure how long for him, but he may have had it before each parent. The mom said he also had pericarditis as well and is on a ton of heart meds, extremely restricted activities for 3 mos, still trying to get numbers down. Please pray for our friend. [emoji3531]


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Oh my gosh! For sure he’ll be in our prayers!

[carolinamama]

Your Local Epidemiologist addressed this today. It's not what I was hoping to see, but we did vaccinate our teen boys knowing that this was likely a risk. For us, this was a risk that we were comfortable assuming in the context of COVID impact.

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/an-update-on-myocarditis-cases?fbclid=IwAR2FcZz3XZCd92-AXANaUThlu7p8lH54ZjNFX7sDtqyseglgVjlMjZWifaA

I agree - not what I was hoping to see but happy to have vaccinated teen/tween boys given the COVID risks. I told DH last night I was relieved we vaccinated our boys before this latest set of numbers came out. We would likely have gone forward but with more trepidation and fear.

All medical interventions are a delicate balance between risks and benefits. Vaccinations provide an extra challenge since they are given to healthy people, thus we don't tolerate the same level of risks, yet require a higher level of benefit. We do need to get to the bottom of it.

[carolinamama]

His dad is a Neuro ICU doc and yes, they did have something horrible requiring both parents having albuterol for breathing at the beginning of the pandemic. It lasted about 21 days for the parents, not sure how long for him, but he may have had it before each parent. The mom said he also had pericarditis as well and is on a ton of heart meds, extremely restricted activities for 3 mos, still trying to get numbers down. Please pray for our friend. [emoji3531]


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This is so scary. Lots of healing thoughts for your friend.

[KpbS]

I agree - not what I was hoping to see but happy to have vaccinated teen/tween boys given the COVID risks. I told DH last night I was relieved we vaccinated our boys before this latest set of numbers came out. We would likely have gone forward but with more trepidation and fear.

All medical interventions are a delicate balance between risks and benefits. Vaccinations provide an extra challenge since they are given to healthy people, thus we don't tolerate the same level of risks, yet require a higher level of benefit. We do need to get to the bottom of it.

Same here

[MSWR0319]

His dad is a Neuro ICU doc and yes, they did have something horrible requiring both parents having albuterol for breathing at the beginning of the pandemic. It lasted about 21 days for the parents, not sure how long for him, but he may have had it before each parent. The mom said he also had pericarditis as well and is on a ton of heart meds, extremely restricted activities for 3 mos, still trying to get numbers down. Please pray for our friend. [emoji3531]


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Wow! Scary! Praying he continues to improve.


I agree - not what I was hoping to see but happy to have vaccinated teen/tween boys given the COVID risks. I told DH last night I was relieved we vaccinated our boys before this latest set of numbers came out. We would likely have gone forward but with more trepidation and fear.

All medical interventions are a delicate balance between risks and benefits. Vaccinations provide an extra challenge since they are given to healthy people, thus we don't tolerate the same level of risks, yet require a higher level of benefit. We do need to get to the bottom of it.

I told DH I was so happy that DS got his second shot just as all of this was coming out. I have been watching him like a hawk the last two weeks, but know I would have been even more stressed if we hadn't already gotten the second shot. DS2 is in the trial right now, and I wish his second shot was already here. But given that it's a lower dose and he hasn't hit puberty yet, I'm hoping his risk is low.

[NCGrandma]

Are you thinking of Reye's Syndrome?

Yep — thanks for the correction. All those scary PSAs about post-infection syndromes must have run together in my head [emoji57] And there definitely were lots of such scary PSAs at one time. Not sure I ever knew anyone with Guillian Barre but we were all sure it was a serious threat. And Reye's Syndrome put a big dent in the sales of aspirin.


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[twowhat?]

The CDC postponed today's advisory committee meeting to next week in observation of Juneteenth. While we wait a little longer to see more data, I'm re-linking this summary of the available data that was discussed at the FDA advisory committee meeting last week:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/an-update-on-myocarditis-cases

I'm also linking a couple of things about the Delta variant:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/delta-variant-the-uk-and-implications
https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1405633531695489027

The Delta variant is a rapidly changing situation in the US - something to all keep our eye out on. FWIW, our fully vaccinated family is going on vacation and even going to attempt Disneyland and we will be keeping a sharp eye on this. Our current plan is to wear N95 equivalent masks indoors or in crowds, which could be a lot of the time while we are there. We will be there with our friends, a fully vaccinated family of physician parents. And they confirmed that they have also purchased N95 equivalent masks and will be wearing them indoors and in crowds.

[ahisma]

The CDC postponed today's advisory committee meeting to next week in observation of Juneteenth. While we wait a little longer to see more data, I'm re-linking this summary of the available data that was discussed at the FDA advisory committee meeting last week:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/an-update-on-myocarditis-cases

I'm also linking a couple of things about the Delta variant:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/delta-variant-the-uk-and-implications
https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1405633531695489027

The Delta variant is a rapidly changing situation in the US - something to all keep our eye out on. FWIW, our fully vaccinated family is going on vacation and even going to attempt Disneyland and we will be keeping a sharp eye on this. Our current plan is to wear N95 equivalent masks indoors or in crowds, which could be a lot of the time while we are there. We will be there with our friends, a fully vaccinated family of physician parents. And they confirmed that they have also purchased N95 equivalent masks and will be wearing them indoors and in crowds.

Question - and please know that I am not pushing back - we have been super cautious and still are, but our kids are now fully vaccinated so we've been letting up a little bit (i.e. in-person music lessons with a vaccinated teacher, etc.)

Why are you wearing N-95s if your entire family is fully vaccinated? As I read it, Delta is a risk on a population level, but not a significant risk on an individual level if you are fully vaccinated. I've been in the weeds lately though, so I may totally be missing something. I'm wondering what your thought process is there - not to critique but to understand more.

[twowhat?]

Question - and please know that I am not pushing back - we have been super cautious and still are, but our kids are now fully vaccinated so we've been letting up a little bit (i.e. in-person music lessons with a vaccinated teacher, etc.)

Why are you wearing N-95s if your entire family is fully vaccinated? As I read it, Delta is a risk on a population level, but not a significant risk on an individual level if you are fully vaccinated. I've been in the weeds lately though, so I may totally be missing something. I'm wondering what your thought process is there - not to critique but to understand more.

Because I have a super low risk tolerance. :) Agree that delta is the biggest risk to the unvaccinated. But vaccination isn't 100%, and likely to be even less effective in the elderly so we don't want to bring something back to the grandparents if we can avoid it, particularly a strain that's looking like it's also more virulent (on top of being more transmissible). And because this would be one of our first re-entry events and it is likely to be VERY crowded, with known unvaccinated people, and the masks will also help us mentally approach it. Because DH and I are approaching the 6-month post-vaccination mark and there's always the "waning immunity" bugging the back of my mind. And because both of our families are close enough to medical personnel that we've already heard enough stories of fully vaccinated patients still ending up in critical care. But mostly because I just have a super low risk tolerance. We're wearing KN95s in the airport/plane too. For our family, not going out at all unless essential to going out and wearing masks at Disneyland is a HUGE leap :)

[chlobo]

Because I have a super low risk tolerance. :) Agree that delta is the biggest risk to the unvaccinated. But vaccination isn't 100%, and likely to be even less effective in the elderly

Someone just told me there have been 4000 cases of Covid in fully vaccinated people in Massachusetts so there is still a risk. I realize the percentage is still small, as Mass has vaccinated 4 million people but I'm just agreeing with you about the masks.

[twowhat?]

Someone just told me there have been 4000 cases of Covid in fully vaccinated people in Massachusetts so there is still a risk. I realize the percentage is still small, as Mass has vaccinated 4 million people but I'm just agreeing with you about the masks.

That's definitely what bothers me and it's even more sobering when you put it in numbers. Pfizer 2 doses, fully vaccinated, though still something like 88% effective against Delta, means about 1 in 10 fully vaccinated people will still get sick. And even though 95ish% effective against hospitalization that means 1 in 20 people will still be hospitalized. 1 in 20!

My risk tolerance level is more like 1 in 1000 will get hospitalized. :)

[ahisma]

Because I have a super low risk tolerance.

That's where I am too, I just keep on getting the "why mask if you are vaccinated" question so I thought I'd throw it out there. The cashier at Costco very kindly assured me that the science on the vaccine is very, very promising yesterday. Thanks for your patience in answering - and for reassuring me that I'm not alone in my risk aversion.

[vludmilla]

That's definitely what bothers me and it's even more sobering when you put it in numbers. Pfizer 2 doses, fully vaccinated, though still something like 88% effective against Delta, means about 1 in 10 fully vaccinated people will still get sick. And even though 95ish% effective against hospitalization that means 1 in 20 people will still be hospitalized. 1 in 20!

My risk tolerance level is more like 1 in 1000 will get hospitalized. :)

You are misunderstanding the statistics. Your risk of infection after vaccination is actually much less than even 1 in 1000.

Here is an explanation:

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html

Here is another explanation. Part of the problem is that you are not considering the "attack rate" and, fortunately, the attack rate gets lower as vaccination increases.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00075-X/fulltext

[nfceagles]

I’m perfectly accepting of you taking precautions and masking as long as you want, but your risk of hospitalization is no where near 1 in 20. That’s a misunderstanding of the numbers and math involved. I didn’t read previous posters links with explanations. They’re probably better than mine, but in simplistic terms the vaccine reduces your existing risk by 95%. So, hypothetically, if your risk of hospitalization was 1 in 20 without the vaccine, it’s now 95% lower than that. So 5% of 5% or 1 in 400. But even that is conditional on you getting infected which is much lower now that you and many around you are vaccinated. So if you have a 10% chance of getting infected (I think that’s really high honestly now that community rates are much lower), you have a (.10)*(1/400) chance of getting infected and being hospitalized. That’s equal to 1 in 4,000. Again, be as careful as you want to be, but I hope you can worry a little less about the worst case scenarios.


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[twowhat?]

You are misunderstanding the statistics. Your risk of infection after vaccination is actually much less than even 1 in 1000.

Here is an explanation:

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html

Here is another explanation. Part of the problem is that you are not considering the "attack rate" and, fortunately, the attack rate gets lower as vaccination increases.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00075-X/fulltext


I’m perfectly accepting of you taking precautions and masking as long as you want, but your risk of hospitalization is no where near 1 in 20. That’s a misunderstanding of the numbers and math involved. I didn’t read previous posters links with explanations. They’re probably better than mine, but in simplistic terms the vaccine reduces your existing risk by 95%. So, hypothetically, if your risk of hospitalization was 1 in 20 without the vaccine, it’s now 95% lower than that. So 5% of 5% or 1 in 400. But even that is conditional on you getting infected which is much lower now that you and many around you are vaccinated. So if you have a 10% chance of getting infected (I think that’s really high honestly now that community rates are much lower), you have a (.10)*(1/400) chance of getting infected and being hospitalized. That’s equal to 1 in 4,000. Again, be as careful as you want to be, but I hope you can worry a little less about the worst case scenarios.


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YES you're both totally right and thank you for setting me straight!! I completely failed to think through the denominator and both of those articles are great! It does make me feel better. Though it doesn't change me wanting to mask in crowds at Disneyland. :) :)

[SnuggleBuggles]

YES you're both totally right and thank you for setting me straight!! I completely failed to think through the denominator and both of those articles are great! It does make me feel better. Though it doesn't change me wanting to mask in crowds at Disneyland. :) :)

I understand. We have been really careful but now that we’re vaccinated I’m willing to do a lot. Socialize with friends indoors? Heck yeah. But, we went to a crowded outdoor place and no one had masks and it was just barely in my comfort zone. It was just so crowded. But, I’m not really interested in wearing a mask anymore. :)


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[AngB]

YES you're both totally right and thank you for setting me straight!! I completely failed to think through the denominator and both of those articles are great! It does make me feel better. Though it doesn't change me wanting to mask in crowds at Disneyland. :) :)

Heck yes I don't blame you. I am glad the odds were corrected because I'll admit I was freaking out a bit. Even so, I always say "even though I trust the vaccine is pretty effective it doesn't mean I want to test it like every day (especially in healthcare!) Our area only have a vaccination rate of like mid-30s% so I definitely wore a mask in to Walgreens today when I had to run in to grab a gift card. (I was the only one wearing one besides one employee and I can guarantee that probably maybe 20% of the people inside were vaxed...)

[MSWR0319]

Heck yes I don't blame you. I am glad the odds were corrected because I'll admit I was freaking out a bit. Even so, I always say "even though I trust the vaccine is pretty effective it doesn't mean I want to test it like every day (especially in healthcare!) Our area only have a vaccination rate of like mid-30s% so I definitely wore a mask in to Walgreens today when I had to run in to grab a gift card. (I was the only one wearing one besides one employee and I can guarantee that probably maybe 20% of the people inside were vaxed...)

I was also freaking out a bit! Our area has been sitting at 33% fully vaxed for the last few weeks, with only 3% more having their first shot. I tried to go into Walmart without a mask on last week and about 50 yards inside the door quickly pulled my mask out and put it on. No way was the whole store vaccinated. There was a lot of people inside and very few masking. My friend is a respiratory therapist at the hospital, and she told me she's getting worried about the Delta variant.

[wendibird22]

Im in NY and we are at 70% vaccinated with at least first dose. But when you dig into the numbers that’s mainly people 65+. Vax rate for 45 and under is something like 40%. So you have this false sense of security thinking your state is basically at herd immunity but it depends where you go. Are you at an outdoor concert in the park when some Beach Boys cover band? Your good. At a crowded 20 something bar…nope not a chance. That’s why I hate that Cuomo rolled back all of our restrictions. The data is misleading.


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[PZMommy]

Im in NY and we are at 70% vaccinated with at least first dose. But when you dig into the numbers that’s mainly people 65+. Vax rate for 45 and under is something like 40%. So you have this false sense of security thinking your state is basically at herd immunity but it depends where you go. Are you at an outdoor concert in the park when some Beach Boys cover band? Your good. At a crowded 20 something bar…nope not a chance. That’s why I hate that Cuomo rolled back all of our restrictions. The data is misleading.


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This is a really good point! I think the statistics on California are similar. Thankfully most people are still wearing their masks at the store. I went to get my hair done for the first time in a year, and they made clients wait outside until their appointment and masks were required. It seems like many places are still following restrictions despite Newsom saying all restrictions are lifted.

[ang79]

Out of curiosity, how many of you are still masking for indoor stuff? It's still hard for me to not feel the need to mask up for indoor shopping. Around here I'd say about 50% of people are still masking in stores and almost all employees, at least at Target and Aldi where I do most of my shopping. I know the vaccines are highly effective but I don't trust that everyone else walking around without a mask has been vaccinated and with the Delta variant gaining speed in the US, it just feels smarter to keep using precautions in public areas inside. We were at the NJ shore last week and it seemed less people masking there the few times I ran into a store. DH made plans to meet up for drinks with an acquaintance through work who happened to be there the same time we were. It felt super weird going into the restaurant without a mask! Granted the people we sat with were vaccinated, but the whole restaurant was maskless so I was a bit on edge the whole time we were there. Much more comfortable when we did outdoor seating at restaurants the rest of the week.

[vludmilla]

Im in NY and we are at 70% vaccinated with at least first dose. But when you dig into the numbers that’s mainly people 65+. Vax rate for 45 and under is something like 40%. So you have this false sense of security thinking your state is basically at herd immunity but it depends where you go. Are you at an outdoor concert in the park when some Beach Boys cover band? Your good. At a crowded 20 something bar…nope not a chance. That’s why I hate that Cuomo rolled back all of our restrictions. The data is misleading.

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I disagree that the data is misleading. I live in NY and have been keeping an eye on new infections, hospitalizations and deaths and all of these numbers in NY are fantastic and the lowest they have been since March 2020. Given the vaccination rate and the rate of natural infection in NY, it is extremely unlikely that any person would get COVID in NY right now but a vaccinated person is at extraordinarily tiny risk now. A deep dive into the data is very reassuring.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Masking indoor here! Just left Disney where 1/2 of our visit still had indoor masking for vaccinated people, but who knows if people really are! Thank goodness our youngest (who had one shot) didn’t go inside much. Employees were still masked.

We won’t be going inside many stores, but we will be masked when we have to! Delta is scary.


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[ett]

I'm still masking indoors and MA has a very high vaccination rate. There are many shoppers and employees without masks now in stores. It was quite nerve wracking shopping a few weeks ago around people without masks but I'm getting more used to it now.

[gymnbomb]

We wear masks inside any time we have the kids with us since they are too young for vaccines. And in select other situations. I don’t wear one to go to the grocery store alone because I don’t spend more than a maximum of a couple of minutes anywhere near another person. I am not worried about someone I walk past in a aisle. I do wear them when I wait for the kids to do swim lessons since I am sitting indoors next to other people (they space the chairs as much as possible, so it isn’t really that close) for 30 minutes at a time. I have not flown anywhere yet, but would wear one of my KF94 masks the entire flight if I needed to fly.


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[jgenie]

I disagree that the data is misleading. I live in NY and have been keeping an eye on new infections, hospitalizations and deaths and all of these numbers in NY are fantastic and the lowest they have been since March 2020. Given the vaccination rate and the rate of natural infection in NY, it is extremely unlikely that any person would get COVID in NY right now but a vaccinated person is at extraordinarily tiny risk now. A deep dive into the data is very reassuring.

I’m in NY. I was on a call with my attorney last week and could hear her kids running around in the background. She apologized and said they were home because her unvaccinated child had just tested positive for Covid. I didn’t ask for specifics on how they caught it. I have no idea what precautions they were taking prior to the positive test.

OP - we’ll continue to mask until my youngest is vaccinated. We mask when indoors or in crowds. We are very often the lone maskers. I’m ok with it. I would be more comfortable ditching masks if we were all vaccinated. We don’t mask if we’re hiking or biking on our own or with another family unless that family is more cautious than we are.

[smilequeen]

I saw this the other day. I think risk aversion is very individual and I totally respect that, but this is kind of how I feel wrt our family. Thankfully my unvaccinated child is cool with wearing a mask whenever, even if I do not. My fully vaccinated (past the 2 week mark) 13 year old still prefers to mask.

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?abVariantId=0&campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210618&instance_id=33309&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN&regi_id=63848332&segment_id=61041&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F118b333c-5470-5268-a63e-a25a778df411&user_id=ebfb92b6b47a6102bba86940aefaba13

Not actually sure if that worked as it was from an email so

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/18/briefing/kids-covid-and-delta.html

[essnce629]

We will continue to wear masks indoors. Where I live I'd say that 95% of people are still masking inside (I went to CVS this week and only 2 people didn't have a mask on).

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[gatorsmom]

We were very careful about masking at indoor activities and even chose to virtual learn all the past year. However, our family stopped masking at the end of May. Ds1 is 17 and was fully vaccinated about a month after us. Our youngest three got their first vax 3 weeks ago. So with the kids virtual learning until just recently, and the weather nice, they have had very little opportunities for COVID19 exposure. Also, young kids have very low rates of long-term health problems if they do catch Covid19 so the biggest risk was always to Dh and my health. Probably about 20% of the people I see at Walmart and Target still wear masks but positivity rates are low around here. Our family has pretty much got back to normal. I dont see a reason why not.

[KrisM]

I'm mostly wearing a mask insured until DD is fully vaccinated later this week. It makes me feel better. But I'm ready to be done most places. Grocery shopping seems very safe as I'm just not around anyone enough to worry. If I were to go someplace crowded I'd likely wear it still.

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[nfceagles]

I will happily wear a mask anywhere it’s required or with anyone who would feel more comfortable if I do so. I did with my kids before they were fully vaccinated for the simple sake of supporting them. I sometimes wear it if it seems most others are wearing it because I simply feel weird being the only one not doing so. I sometimes where it because I can’t quickly figure out a store’s rule. I’m prepared to start wearing them again if needed due to Delta.

But otherwise, for me, I don’t think it’s needed for several reasons. My entire family is fully vaccinated now. My state is highly vaccinated. And community rates where I am are low. I’ve been tracking case count in my town since the beginning and we haven’t identified a case yet in the month of June. My 13yo still feels more comfortable wearing one and I am happy to support anyone who similarly feels more comfortable still in one.


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[carolinacool]

I sometimes wear it if it seems most others are wearing it because I simply feel weird being the only one not doing so.

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I was in Bath and Body Works over the weekend. They are still limiting capacity, so there were only 20 or so people in the store. Everyone had one on. I felt weird so I pulled mine out of my handbag.

Otherwise, I stopped wearing one about two weeks ago unless required. I will wear one with DS since he's 11, but he never goes shopping with me. I live in a North Carolina city that had very good mask compliance. Even after the CDC make its announcement and our governor dropped the mandate a couple of days after that, more than 90% of folks still wore them in stores. Since Memorial Day, though, that number has been steadily dropping and I would say it's now 50/50 most places. And that's right in line with state vaccination rates, although I think my city is a little higher than that. Spread is really low here, and the local hospital system is average 20 COVID patients per day, which is the lowest it's been in more than a year.

ETA: My office reopened at the beginning of the month for anyone who wanted to come in - no restrictions at all in place. I'm working here this week because DS is at camp nearby. There are a decent number of folks here and I haven't seen anyone in a mask.

[twowhat?]

cliffs notes are up on the CDC ACIP meeting!

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/todays-acip-meeting-myocarditis-and

I think if I were a boy mom, I'd still vaccinate (particularly because of the Delta variant) but would be keeping a very close eye in the week following the second shot.

eta: Dear Pandemic posted their own summary and included some of the graphics that are really helpful to see the risks/benefits so you can decide what risk you're comfortable with: https://www.facebook.com/dearpandemic/

[PZMommy]

cliffs notes are up on the CDC ACIP meeting!

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/todays-acip-meeting-myocarditis-and

I think if I were a boy mom, I'd still vaccinate (particularly because of the Delta variant) but would be keeping a very close eye in the week following the second shot.

eta: Dear Pandemic posted their own summary and included some of the graphics that are really helpful to see the risks/benefits so you can decide what risk you're comfortable with: https://www.facebook.com/dearpandemic/

Thank you for posting the updates. My son is 11, and will be 12 at the end of the summer.I was already very nervous about him getting the same dose of a vaccine as I did (and I think you were the one who explained to me why 12 year olds get the same dose as adults), but with these myocarditis cases, it makes me even more nervous. He won’t be eligible for another month yet, so I have some more time to see how things play out. And I know covid is also a big risk. I’m not a risk taker at all, so having to make a choice between two things that both have risks is very difficult for me.

[chlobo]

Thank you for the information. I hope they are looking at other things like the spacing between the first and second vaccine. If that could make a difference to avoid medication or possible hospitalization due to the vaccine, it seems like an easy thing to do.

[MSWR0319]

I'm interested to see what happens if/when the younger age group gets approved for Moderna. When I saw slides earlier it looked like there were actually more cases from the Moderna vaccine when you factored in how many shots had been given. Obviously more Pfizer shots have been given since that's the only one approved for the under 18 group.

[ang79]

Has there been any research out of Canada on this? Just curious, as they approved Pfizer for 12-15 before the US did. Also, any research out of England? They were spacing their vaccines further apart in an effort to get first vaccines into more people.


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[MSWR0319]

Has there been any research out of Canada on this? Just curious, as they approved Pfizer for 12-15 before the US did. Also, any research out of England? They were spacing their vaccines further apart in an effort to get first vaccines into more people.


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This is all I’ve found. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6074948
I will say I’m surprised we haven’t heard more about reactions like this from the J&J. My friends’ son who is 25 had pain just like described in the article and was hospitalized for two days after his J&J. He’d had random bouts of chest pain as a child that was never diagnosed as anything. I’m pretty sure she told me it was myocarditis after his shot, but I don’t remember for sure. His body was in so much pain he needed morphine and his hand muscles were clenched like he had CP. The hospital though he was having a drug overdose when they got there, but then told her they’d seen many people like this after the J&J and all they could do was help relieve the pain until the inflammation went away. There has to be something in people’s immune system causing them to react.

[AngB]

Thank you for posting the updates. My son is 11, and will be 12 at the end of the summer.I was already very nervous about him getting the same dose of a vaccine as I did (and I think you were the one who explained to me why 12 year olds get the same dose as adults), but with these myocarditis cases, it makes me even more nervous. He won’t be eligible for another month yet, so I have some more time to see how things play out. And I know covid is also a big risk. I’m not a risk taker at all, so having to make a choice between two things that both have risks is very difficult for me.

My oldest is 10 but with three boys -currently going to summer school with masks but in the fall they will be optional- I am leaning towards getting them the first dose for some efficacy (when it's approved) and waiting a long time before getting them the second dose- if ever. They are healthy with no health conditions so I feel like their risks of getting covid and having issues is very low anyway, but the risks of the vaccine are also low...Only one dose does have some efficacy and doesn't seem to have the complications. I'm not saying I wouldn't ever get them the second dose but we will definitely wait much longer than the 2 weeks, personally. This is just pretending that I actually will get to make this decision because DH is 1000% adamantly against getting them vaccinated at all and that was before the myocarditis stuff was coming out and it's going to be really difficult to convince him, if I even can. (Which makes me want it even more because if we are in a state with a 35%ish vaccination rate among adults, I'm sure when it's opened up to children the vaccination rate among children will probably be like 10-15%...)

[georgiegirl]

My oldest is 10 but with three boys -currently going to summer school with masks but in the fall they will be optional- I am leaning towards getting them the first dose for some efficacy (when it's approved) and waiting a long time before getting them the second dose- if ever. They are healthy with no health conditions so I feel like their risks of getting covid and having issues is very low anyway, but the risks of the vaccine are also low...Only one dose does have some efficacy and doesn't seem to have the complications. I'm not saying I wouldn't ever get them the second dose but we will definitely wait much longer than the 2 weeks, personally. This is just pretending that I actually will get to make this decision because DH is 1000% adamantly against getting them vaccinated at all and that was before the myocarditis stuff was coming out and it's going to be really difficult to convince him, if I even can. (Which makes me want it even more because if we are in a state with a 35%ish vaccination rate among adults, I'm sure when it's opened up to children the vaccination rate among children will probably be like 10-15%...)

Im pretty sure only One shot doesn’t offer much protection against delta. Supposedly only 33% effective after one shot compared to 88% for two doses.
We considered giving DS1 (12 next month but tiny) only one shot until we read those statistics.

[moosemama]

Has there been any research out of Canada on this? Just curious, as they approved Pfizer for 12-15 before the US did. Also, any research out of England? They were spacing their vaccines further apart in an effort to get first vaccines into more people.


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Very few 12-15 year olds in Canada have received their 2nd doses. Because of vaccine shortages, Canada has also spaced doses further apart in order to get first doses to more people.

[chlobo]

Has there been any research out of Canada on this? Just curious, as they approved Pfizer for 12-15 before the US did. Also, any research out of England? They were spacing their vaccines further apart in an effort to get first vaccines into more people.


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I read this article about Israel and at the end it mentions England:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination

"One important question is whether delaying the second vaccine dose might reduce any potential risk. There may be an opportunity to find out: Several countries have stretched the interval between the two doses from the 3 weeks tested and recommended by Pfizer to 12 or even 16 weeks, because they want to give as many people as possible at least one shot. A drop in myocarditis cases among those whose second dose was delayed might show up in data in the months ahead. Lowering the dose in young people may also be worth considering, Liu says. Pfizer’s and Moderna’s vaccines are now being tested at lower doses in children under 12, with results expected in the coming months."

[PZMommy]

I read this article about Israel and at the end it mentions England:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/israel-reports-link-between-rare-cases-heart-inflammation-and-covid-19-vaccination

"One important question is whether delaying the second vaccine dose might reduce any potential risk. There may be an opportunity to find out: Several countries have stretched the interval between the two doses from the 3 weeks tested and recommended by Pfizer to 12 or even 16 weeks, because they want to give as many people as possible at least one shot. A drop in myocarditis cases among those whose second dose was delayed might show up in data in the months ahead. Lowering the dose in young people may also be worth considering, Liu says. Pfizer’s and Moderna’s vaccines are now being tested at lower doses in children under 12, with results expected in the coming months."

I really think the dose is too high for a 12 year old. I had really bad side effects for a week after my second Pfizer dose. I can’t imagine my tiny 12 yr old getting the same dose. And now with the info about myocarditis, it makes me even more nervous. If he were to get vaccinated today as an 11 yr old he would get a smaller dose. But in a month when he turns 12, even though he is still the same weight and size as he is now, he would get a full adult dose. He isn’t changing that much in a month! It just doesn’t make sense to me. At this point I really think I will either not give it to him at all, or just do one dose, but I’m leaning heavily on not doing it at all. I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

[gymnbomb]

I really think the dose is too high for a 12 year old. I had really bad side effects for a week after my second Pfizer dose. I can’t imagine my tiny 12 yr old getting the same dose. And now with the info about myocarditis, it makes me even more nervous. If he were to get vaccinated today as an 11 yr old he would get a smaller dose. But in a month when he turns 12, even though he is still the same weight and size as he is now, he would get a full adult dose. He isn’t changing that much in a month! It just doesn’t make sense to me. At this point I really think I will either not give it to him at all, or just do one dose, but I’m leaning heavily on not doing it at all. I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

I understand your concerns, and I likely would have similar concerns if I had a child that age. However, vaccine reactions seem totally random and not based on size. I'm 110 pounds and only had very minor side effects from my second Pfizer dose (headache, minor fatigue for half a day), but I know some other people had different or more severe side effects. Adult doses aren't based on size. A 90 pound adult would get the same dose as a 350 pound adult.

[chlobo]

I understand your concerns, and I likely would have similar concerns if I had a child that age. However, vaccine reactions seem totally random and not based on size. I'm 110 pounds and only had very minor side effects from my second Pfizer dose (headache, minor fatigue for half a day), but I know some other people had different or more severe side effects. Adult doses aren't based on size. A 90 pound adult would get the same dose as a 350 pound adult.

I think someone earlier said that it isn't so much size but immune response and that younger kids have a stronger immune response. For me, the calculation is similar. The immune response isn't going to change that much between 11 yrs 11 months and 12 years yet the dose does.

[twowhat?]

I really think the dose is too high for a 12 year old. I had really bad side effects for a week after my second Pfizer dose. I can’t imagine my tiny 12 yr old getting the same dose. And now with the info about myocarditis, it makes me even more nervous. If he were to get vaccinated today as an 11 yr old he would get a smaller dose. But in a month when he turns 12, even though he is still the same weight and size as he is now, he would get a full adult dose. He isn’t changing that much in a month! It just doesn’t make sense to me. At this point I really think I will either not give it to him at all, or just do one dose, but I’m leaning heavily on not doing it at all. I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

It is hard, especially when you have a child that is right at that cutoff between doses. 12+ are physiologically more similar to teens/adults in their immune response and that's one reason why that dose was studied in 12+. Someone will always be on the edge of that cutoff, and with the new myocarditis data, it makes the decision harder. I still believe the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks (keeping in mind there's risk in any choice) but if I were you I'd ask his pediatrician. There may be a strategy that might (might being a key word since not proven) minimize risk such as delaying the second dose...but again keeping in mind that only one dose has very poor efficacy against the Delta variant, which is the major concern. I'm also not sure if there's a possibility that you could get your 12yo vaccinated as an 11yo under a doctor's recommendation (once the lower dose is authorized for the under-12s).

Anyway...2 of my close friends are 100% physician families (both mom and dad are MDs) and both families got their 12yo boys vaccinated, and just kept a very close eye on them in the week after the 2nd shot. Neither had any issue but if there were to be an issue, early recognition/intervention surely optimizes outcomes.

Good luck! It's a hard decision for sure.

[bisous]

My 13yo was vaxxed prior to really hearing about the myocarditis issue and thankfully we didn't have any issues. I'm sort of glad we're done and it is under my belt!

Barring any major issues that come out in the study, I do plan on getting my (probably by then) 10yo vaxxed (and his 7yo sister) and feel pretty comfortable with it. It will make me a little nervous but a. COVID makes me more nervous and b. what I've heard about the myocarditis is that even when it is an issue it does not seem to be terribly severe. Prior to hearing this I was much more worried and I think this is an important part of the story!

I think one thing motivating me at this time is that our family is MOSTLY vaxxed. The weekend of the 4th we're separating in half because DHs family is gathering (and they are not at all cautious) and we've decided it would be really good for our teenagers...but it would be too risky for our unvaccinated kids. So we really can't wait to get them protected as well and then we'll breathe a huge sigh of relief!

[MSWR0319]

I really think the dose is too high for a 12 year old. I had really bad side effects for a week after my second Pfizer dose. I can’t imagine my tiny 12 yr old getting the same dose. And now with the info about myocarditis, it makes me even more nervous. If he were to get vaccinated today as an 11 yr old he would get a smaller dose. But in a month when he turns 12, even though he is still the same weight and size as he is now, he would get a full adult dose. He isn’t changing that much in a month! It just doesn’t make sense to me. At this point I really think I will either not give it to him at all, or just do one dose, but I’m leaning heavily on not doing it at all. I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

My 12 year old, who weighs about 30 lbs less than me had less severe side effects than I did. I had more severe than DH who weighs 40lbs more. I really don't think weight is the issue. I'm glad DS got his second dose just as the data out of Israel was coming out. I would do it again given what we know now, but I would have been on edge for a week. All of his friends are now vaccinated and it's been so wonderful having them all gathering in our basement again.


It is hard, especially when you have a child that is right at that cutoff between doses. 12+ are physiologically more similar to teens/adults in their immune response and that's one reason why that dose was studied in 12+. Someone will always be on the edge of that cutoff, and with the new myocarditis data, it makes the decision harder. I still believe the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks (keeping in mind there's risk in any choice) but if I were you I'd ask his pediatrician. There may be a strategy that might (might being a key word since not proven) minimize risk such as delaying the second dose...but again keeping in mind that only one dose has very poor efficacy against the Delta variant, which is the major concern. I'm also not sure if there's a possibility that you could get your 12yo vaccinated as an 11yo under a doctor's recommendation (once the lower dose is authorized for the under-12s).

Anyway...2 of my close friends are 100% physician families (both mom and dad are MDs) and both families got their 12yo boys vaccinated, and just kept a very close eye on them in the week after the 2nd shot. Neither had any issue but if there were to be an issue, early recognition/intervention surely optimizes outcomes.

Good luck! It's a hard decision for sure.


DS has two friends who's parents are doctors and they both got their 12 year olds vaccinated as well.

They just had a pediatric cardiologist on the news last night who was begging for parents to get their kids their shots. They said the damage they are seeing from Covid is far worse than this myocarditis that is showing up and much more frequent. They said that parents need to be aware so that they can get treatment if something does happen after the shot, but that if it does happen it's been very treatable with no lasting effects for the most part.

[acmom]

DS has two friends who's parents are doctors and they both got their 12 year olds vaccinated as well.

They just had a pediatric cardiologist on the news last night who was begging for parents to get their kids their shots. They said the damage they are seeing from Covid is far worse than this myocarditis that is showing up and much more frequent. They said that parents need to be aware so that they can get treatment if something does happen after the shot, but that if it does happen it's been very treatable with no lasting effects for the most part.

Yes- this. My DH is a physician in a pediatric subspecialty and has seen exactly this. We have a 12 year old DD who was vaccinated as soon as it was available to her and our DS who is 11 will be vaccinated as soon as it is available for him.

[Snow mom]

I understand your concerns, and I likely would have similar concerns if I had a child that age. However, vaccine reactions seem totally random and not based on size. I'm 110 pounds and only had very minor side effects from my second Pfizer dose (headache, minor fatigue for half a day), but I know some other people had different or more severe side effects. Adult doses aren't based on size. A 90 pound adult would get the same dose as a 350 pound adult.
Yeah, DD is somewhere between 85 and 90 lbs, not quite 5’. She had a sore arm with the first and basically nothing with the second. And she’s a complainer so she wouldn’t be shy about letting me know every ache and pain it was causing her. In fact, she wanted to know if she should report the stomach pain she was experiencing from not having enough lunch to v-safe one day :rotflmao:

[jgenie]

I really think the dose is too high for a 12 year old. I had really bad side effects for a week after my second Pfizer dose. I can’t imagine my tiny 12 yr old getting the same dose. And now with the info about myocarditis, it makes me even more nervous. If he were to get vaccinated today as an 11 yr old he would get a smaller dose. But in a month when he turns 12, even though he is still the same weight and size as he is now, he would get a full adult dose. He isn’t changing that much in a month! It just doesn’t make sense to me. At this point I really think I will either not give it to him at all, or just do one dose, but I’m leaning heavily on not doing it at all. I just don’t feel comfortable with it.

I wonder if you wait until the next group is authorized if he’ll be eligible for a lower dose.

[dogmom]

My philosophy on things like this is if my teen got myocarditis from the vaccine they would have most likely gotten from the disease itself. Since it’s still circulating, there are easily to spread variants, we are idiots in the country and aren’t going to get to herd immunity any time soon, I would make the same decisions now as I did two months ago. I watched so much suffering from COVID, it just seems worth the risk to me. I think it helps to realize a lot of this about control. We feel we can control whether our kids get the vaccine, but not the disease, so it can skew our thinking.

[wendibird22]

Re the comments about dosage and body size…my 50-something boss is a slight 5” tall and 90lb soaking wet. She got the adult dose (obviously) and did just fine.


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[MSWR0319]

My philosophy on things like this is if my teen got myocarditis from the vaccine they would have most likely gotten from the disease itself. Since it’s still circulating, there are easily to spread variants, we are idiots in the country and aren’t going to get to herd immunity any time soon, I would make the same decisions now as I did two months ago. I watched so much suffering from COVID, it just seems worth the risk to me. I think it helps to realize a lot of this about control. We feel we can control whether our kids get the vaccine, but not the disease, so it can skew our thinking.

Thank you for saying this. My thought process was also that if my kid got myocarditis from the shot, it would probably happen with Covid. However, I have no medical background and didn't want to say it since I really had nothing to go by.

[ang79]

I'm glad mine got theirs before this became bigger news, as I'm sure it would have caused me a bit more pause in deciding to get it! Though I think I would probably have made the same decision, that the chance of getting Covid (especially with mask policies pretty much non-existent now and the increase of Delta cases) and issues from the actual virus would be worse than possible side effects of the vaccine.

My girls were at the fully vaxed stage this past Monday. Yesterday 14 yr. old DD1 started complaining of constant headache and nauseous stomach, and had a fever and chills in the afternoon and evening. At first I thought the headache and nausea was side effect of the Diclofenac she had started taking Wed. evening for knee pain, but she insisted she felt just like she did after her second does of the vaccine, minus the all over body aches. No fever today but she said she was getting pains in her stomach and chest (back and forth) and still had a headache that did not go away with the Tylenol she took last night for fever. We went to Urgent Care for my own peace of mind. The doctor said the chest pains sounded more like reflux, which could be from that medication. He said chest pains with myocarditis and pericardis usually gets worse if you lean back/recline and better if you bend forward and hers did not present like that. He thinks she may have a sinus infection due to sniffles and where her headache presents, so we will try antibiotics and see if that helps for now. She does seem a bit better today, yesterday she just laid on the couch all day with chills. Looking forward to the day when I don't automatically think it could be Covid or Covid related every time one of us gets sick!

[carolinamama]

I'm glad mine got theirs before this became bigger news, as I'm sure it would have caused me a bit more pause in deciding to get it! Though I think I would probably have made the same decision, that the chance of getting Covid (especially with mask policies pretty much non-existent now and the increase of Delta cases) and issues from the actual virus would be worse than possible side effects of the vaccine.

My girls were at the fully vaxed stage this past Monday. Yesterday 14 yr. old DD1 started complaining of constant headache and nauseous stomach, and had a fever and chills in the afternoon and evening. At first I thought the headache and nausea was side effect of the Diclofenac she had started taking Wed. evening for knee pain, but she insisted she felt just like she did after her second does of the vaccine, minus the all over body aches. No fever today but she said she was getting pains in her stomach and chest (back and forth) and still had a headache that did not go away with the Tylenol she took last night for fever. We went to Urgent Care for my own peace of mind. The doctor said the chest pains sounded more like reflux, which could be from that medication. He said chest pains with myocarditis and pericardis usually gets worse if you lean back/recline and better if you bend forward and hers did not present like that. He thinks she may have a sinus infection due to sniffles and where her headache presents, so we will try antibiotics and see if that helps for now. She does seem a bit better today, yesterday she just laid on the couch all day with chills. Looking forward to the day when I don't automatically think it could be Covid or Covid related every time one of us gets sick!

Per TWIV, we are seeing the typical winter viruses (rhino virus, RSV, common corona viruses, parainfluenza) all packed into June as we are removing masks and gathering. I know it's still so stressful though. Fully vaccinated DS2 had a stuffy nose early this week. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it in the past, but I'm so hypervigilant now that my mind went straight to Covid. Hope you DD feels better soon!

[California]

A little reassurance for those waiting a bit: We just talked to DD’s doctor this week and he was fine with waiting for her to get the vax for now. He rotates through our local children’s hospital and said our infection rates have dropped really low and she’s at very low risk for complications from COVID, and the high risk adults (grandparents) are all vaccinated. She has to get a Tdap (or Dtap, I keep forgetting which version) for school and we want to space them out.

[mom2binsd]

DS is 15, very healthy, plays sports. I felt the risk was low, and we would be watching for any side effects/any signs of myocarditis, even spoke with the ped who said at the first sign of any concerns post vax to bring him in, but that the benefits outweighed the risk, especially knowing what to watch for. He had his second dose almost 4 weeks ago.

I think those with heart issues like 3isenough should speak with their cardiologist tbh.

[PZMommy]

A little reassurance for those waiting a bit: We just talked to DD’s doctor this week and he was fine with waiting for her to get the vax for now. He rotates through our local children’s hospital and said our infection rates have dropped really low and she’s at very low risk for complications from COVID, and the high risk adults (grandparents) are all vaccinated. She has to get a Tdap (or Dtap, I keep forgetting which version) for school and we want to space them out.

My DS is getting his tdap next week. I know the nurse at his pedi office said he has to wait 14 days for the covid vax, but his birthday will still require him to wait longer.

I’m not worried about my DS catching covid at this point. We have been extremely vigilant. No school, he doesn’t play sports, no vacations, and he hates to go out shopping. Unless he can catch it from playing PS5, we are good on that front. My district will continue to offer online learning this fall. I’m planning to send him back (masks required and social distancing, plus weekly covid testing), but depending on numbers, he can easily stay home. He is the kind of kid online schooling was made for.

[chlobo]

Per TWIV, we are seeing the typical winter viruses (rhino virus, RSV, common corona viruses, parainfluenza) all packed into June as we are removing masks and gathering. I know it's still so stressful though. Fully vaccinated DS2 had a stuffy nose early this week. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it in the past, but I'm so hypervigilant now that my mind went straight to Covid. Hope you DD feels better soon!

Half vaccinated DS came down with sore throat, aches, pains, fever, congestion. Out of an abundance of caution we had him tested. It was negative so looks like one of those colds everyone is starting to get.

[smilequeen]

Half vaccinated DS came down with sore throat, aches, pains, fever, congestion. Out of an abundance of caution we had him tested. It was negative so looks like one of those colds everyone is starting to get.

My 16 year old had a really nasty sore throat. Fully vaccinated and was tested for Covid, Strep, and Mono. All negative. I thought for sure it was mono as he was so sick. He was only 2 weeks past the end of school at the time and had literally just started letting him hang out with his girlfriend after only being allowed to socialize with his teammates all year ( both varsity coaches were strict about that too). Definitely going to see how much stuff the masks really were preventing…


Adding too. I didn’t know about this when my oldest was vaccinated but he did fine. I was aware with my 13 year old and kept a close eye on him. I feel similar, that these are the same kids likely to have this with Covid. So I still think it’s worth it but I’m glad I know what to watch for too.

[wendibird22]

Per TWIV, we are seeing the typical winter viruses (rhino virus, RSV, common corona viruses, parainfluenza) all packed into June as we are removing masks and gathering. I know it's still so stressful though. Fully vaccinated DS2 had a stuffy nose early this week. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it in the past, but I'm so hypervigilant now that my mind went straight to Covid. Hope you DD feels better soon!

Yup. DD2 (11) school went mask optional the last two weeks of school because of the heat. Half her class stopped wearing masks. By week’s end she had a cold. Four days later and DD2 and I had a cold. It was all sneezing and nasal congestion. No fever or headache or body aches. Given that DD2 and I are both fully vaccinated I knew it wasn’t Covid. Certainly doesn’t take long for people to start spreading germs!


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[3isEnough]

I think those with heart issues like 3isenough should speak with their cardiologist tbh.

We texted again with our pediatric cardiologist a few days ago and he said:

No contraindication for XX to get the second vaccine. Seems that risk of myocarditis with true COVID is exponentially higher as compared to any vaccine effect. And as you say, all the cases are mild.

As a reminder, this is with respect to my 15yo DS who has congenital heart defects and had asymptomatic COVID sometime along the way (we learned in Feb that he has antibodies). He had dose #1 without issue but getting #2 still makes me uneasy. Nonetheless, we’re relying on the experts and having him get dose #2 tomorrow afternoon. I’ll report back over the next week on how he’s doing.

[carolinacool]

Per TWIV, we are seeing the typical winter viruses (rhino virus, RSV, common corona viruses, parainfluenza) all packed into June as we are removing masks and gathering. I know it's still so stressful though. Fully vaccinated DS2 had a stuffy nose early this week. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it in the past, but I'm so hypervigilant now that my mind went straight to Covid. Hope you DD feels better soon!

Yep. We actually took DS, 11, to CVS this morning for a rapid test. Just got the negative results.

Thursday, he started complaining of a scratchy throat and stuffy nose. This followed two weeks of basketball camp at two different locations -- with mask usage being what you might expect at a basketball camp. By Friday, his sore throat was gone but the stuffy nose has been hanging around. Then last night he temperature was up a degree, but still not technically fever and he started coughing occasionally. I figured it was drainage. But since we are driving to Florida for a basketball tournament this week, I just wanted peace of mind.

Colds are back!

[chlobo]

A friend of mine posted this article about "flawed" (their words, not mine) analysis with respect to how the ACIP is reporting the risk benefit for the 2nd Covid shot.

Could someone who is more statistically minded than I am please explain how the analysis they did is incorrect?: https://medium.com/@wpegden/weighing-myocarditis-cases-acip-failed-to-balance-the-harms-vs-benefits-of-2nd-doses-d7d6b3df7cfb

[MSWR0319]

I just read this article.
https://apple.news/A20trXN2GQQCT4CO9k_3rSA
While the numbers aren't huge (I'm sure there are many more cases though), the fact that they think 90% of MIS right now is being diagnosed after cases with no symptoms makes me nervous. Myocarditis is a very real possibility from the virus and seems worse when it comes from the virus vs the vaccine. I hope they can get a safe vaccine available to the younger kids.

[dogmom]

A friend of mine posted this article about "flawed" (their words, not mine) analysis with respect to how the ACIP is reporting the risk benefit for the 2nd Covid shot.

Could someone who is more statistically minded than I am please explain how the analysis they did is incorrect?: https://medium.com/@wpegden/weighing-myocarditis-cases-acip-failed-to-balance-the-harms-vs-benefits-of-2nd-doses-d7d6b3df7cfb

First, statistics are not my strong suite, but it seems like this is a back of an envelope calculation more than a serious epidemiological analysis. The author of the Medium article is a mathematician at CMU who does not specialize in epidemiology. There was a lot of stuff put out by well meaning math, economics and other people that I wasn’t thrilled about during the pandemic. The whole, are schools safe or not discussion last fall was corrupted by a well meaning woman doing this kind of analysis. (I refuse the read Nate Silver anymore. Not because of flawed analysis, but him being arrogant jerk that refused to believe maybe this wasn’t his expertise.) My take home on this is he’s trying to parse out whether teens should get the second shot based on an isolated analysis of how good their response to one shot is vs risk of Myocarditis. But by doing it in isolation he’s ignoring a lot of know public health data about how to get people vaccinated and how hard it is to complete a full regiment. He’s also looking at this from an isolate one kid at a time thing, not overall public health of trying to stop a pandemic.

[3isEnough]

Update on my DS following vax #2 yesterday - he awoke with 101.4' fever and a bad headache. Ibuprofen brought the fever down and helped with the headache. No chest pains or other myocarditis-like symptoms. Although the fever and headache are completely consistent with typical vax side effects, they surprised me a bit because my other 2 kids (one younger, one older than DS) had 0 side effects after the 2d vax. He stayed home from summer school but is now planning to go surfing, so apparently he's not feeling too bad (I nixed the surfing when I heard :rolleye0014:).

[WatchingThemGrow]

Glad he’s feeling a bit better, and yay for surfing, lol. My youngest gets dose 2 tomorrow... hoping it’s a non-event.


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[chlobo]

First, statistics are not my strong suite, but it seems like this is a back of an envelope calculation more than a serious epidemiological analysis. The author of the Medium article is a mathematician at CMU who does not specialize in epidemiology. There was a lot of stuff put out by well meaning math, economics and other people that I wasn’t thrilled about during the pandemic. The whole, are schools safe or not discussion last fall was corrupted by a well meaning woman doing this kind of analysis. (I refuse the read Nate Silver anymore. Not because of flawed analysis, but him being arrogant jerk that refused to believe maybe this wasn’t his expertise.) My take home on this is he’s trying to parse out whether teens should get the second shot based on an isolated analysis of how good their response to one shot is vs risk of Myocarditis. But by doing it in isolation he’s ignoring a lot of know public health data about how to get people vaccinated and how hard it is to complete a full regiment. He’s also looking at this from an isolate one kid at a time thing, not overall public health of trying to stop a pandemic.

Thanks. That makes sense.

[PZMommy]

My son just saw his doctor today. She has already seen a handful of cases of myocarditis after vaccination in her patients. She says the case numbers are being under reported. She does not feel they tested the vaccine enough for 12-15, and rushed to get it out. She said if I want to get him vaccinated, she would strongly recommend waiting at least a few more months to see what other thing happen with it. She also said she would prefer the johnson and johnson or astra zenica (sp?) vs the mRNA for kids/teens. So I had my son get his tdap and meningitis vaccine today. We’ll do his hpv next year, and I’m going to hold off on the covid for now. Mask wearing is being required indoors here (and even for the few weeks it wasn’t required most people still wore them), and it will be required in schools in the fall.

[IansMom]

…says the case numbers are being under reported. She does not feel they tested the vaccine enough for 12-15, and rushed to get it out. She said if I want to get him vaccinated, she would strongly recommend waiting at least a few more months to see what other thing happen with it. She also said she would prefer the johnson and johnson or astra zenica (sp?) vs the mRNA for kids/teens.

My doctor has made the same comments/recommendations.

[MSWR0319]

She said if I want to get him vaccinated, she would strongly recommend waiting at least a few more months to see what other thing happen with it. She also said she would prefer the johnson and johnson or astra zenica (sp?) vs the mRNA for kids/teens.

I find it interesting that she’s recommending J&J. The only people I know who had myocarditis after vaccines both got J&J. I don’t think those cases are being reported either because my friend said the hospital told her they were seeing a lot of them and I haven’t heard of any mention of it elsewhere.

[carolinacool]

Yeah, I’m glad that DS is just now 11.5, so I have several more months to think this over. We’re huge supporters of the vaccine – DH and I got ours as soon as we were eligible. But this is a concerning issue for me, and I feel like it’s being handwaved somewhat flippantly by experts in a few of the articles I’ve read lately. DS has an appointment to see his pediatrician in August about another issue, but I’ll definitely get his opinion.

[PZMommy]

I find it interesting that she’s recommending J&J. The only people I know who had myocarditis after vaccines both got J&J. I don’t think those cases are being reported either because my friend said the hospital told her they were seeing a lot of them and I haven’t heard of any mention of it elsewhere.

Her thought was that they were made more like traditional vaccines. I don’t have any idea what the time frame is for either of these to be approved for under 18. I’m fine with waiting awhile longer to see how things play out. I know of 2 kids personally who were diagnosed with myocarditis after the Pfizer vaccine. If it is so rare, not sure how it is I know of 2 kids personally. I think it is way more common than is being reported.

[Kindra178]

My son just saw his doctor today. She has already seen a handful of cases of myocarditis after vaccination in her patients. She says the case numbers are being under reported. She does not feel they tested the vaccine enough for 12-15, and rushed to get it out. She said if I want to get him vaccinated, she would strongly recommend waiting at least a few more months to see what other thing happen with it. She also said she would prefer the johnson and johnson or astra zenica (sp?) vs the mRNA for kids/teens. So I had my son get his tdap and meningitis vaccine today. We’ll do his hpv next year, and I’m going to hold off on the covid for now. Mask wearing is being required indoors here (and even for the few weeks it wasn’t required most people still wore them), and it will be required in schools in the fall.

Was this a general ped or a specialist?

I'm thinking of getting vax 1 for my kids and not 2. This is what Monica Ghandi is recommending for kids with past covid infections.

[PZMommy]

Was this a general ped or a specialist?

I'm thinking of getting vax 1 for my kids and not 2. This is what Monica Ghandi is recommending for kids with past covid infections.

Our general pedi, but we’ve been seeing her for 10 years. She is very pro vaccine, so I was surprised by her comments. I really thought she would say for him to get it as soon as he is age eligible. She spent a good 15 minutes talking with me about it. I was considering doing the one dose and skipping the second, but for now I’m comfortable with waiting it out awhile.

As a side note, my husband had minor surgery the other day and when the nurse found out I was a teacher, she asked me if the district would be requiring kids to get covid vaccinated. She said she was vaccinated, but there was no way she was giving the vaccine to her kids.

[ray7694]

I haven’t seen a study on any vaccine with children other than Pfizer. Does this doctor have inside information on the others being less of an issue for children?

[PZMommy]

I haven’t seen a study on any vaccine with children other than Pfizer. Does this doctor have inside information on the others being less of an issue for children?

It was based in the way they are made. She did not like the MRNA vaccines for kids (or anyone actually. She got the Johnson and Johnson one herself) and preferred the vaccines that were more “traditional”. None of those have been approved for kids yet, so that is why she is fine with waiting either for them, or not giving it to kids at all at this point.

[3isEnough]

Reporting back after my DS (15yo) got his 2d vax on Sunday - other than a fever and headache on the first day, he’s had no other side effects or concerns. For what it’s worth, our pediatric cardiologist has said he’s seen far more myocarditis cases from kids who have had covid vs kids who received the vaccine. Granted, perhaps that will change as the vaccine is available to kids for a longer period and they have more data.

As for the nurse saying there’s no way she’d give it to her own child, my DH is a dr and he gave it to his covid-antibodied, congenital heart defect kid (with heart defects serious enough to warrant surgery in the next year or two), and that was after speaking with epidemiology and our pediatric cardiologist. Also, we have 2 good friends who are adult cardiologists, one who is Harvard educated and trained and the other who is a top heart transplant surgeon at UCLA and both had their own kids get the vaccine. It’s not to say they’re right and the nurse is wrong, but to offer other input on the subject.

[mom2binsd]

Was this a general ped or a specialist?

I'm thinking of getting vax 1 for my kids and not 2. This is what Monica Ghandi is recommending for kids with past covid infections.DS is 15, he had Covid back in November (not one symptom though, his dad had Covid with plenty of symptoms and DS was around him to be exposed and tested positive). I had him signed up as soon as IL allowed it. He had no side effects with either and other than some food allergies no other health issues. After the second shot I watched him very closely for any of the signs of myovarditis and even asked our ped if we should delay and he said no.

I have not heard of any issues with other boys and we know a lot of 15-18 boys who have been vaccinated.

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[georgiegirl]

I would not trust a random nurse’s opinion at all!!! Not to put down nurses, but many are not up to date on current research like doctors are. DH is a physician and knows cardiologists and infectious disease doctors and none have expressed any doubts at all. DS’s endocrinologist recommends he get the vaccine (her husband is the physician for a big state university’s football team, and they have seen more myocarditis post covid than post vaccine).

[dogmom]

I would not trust a random nurse’s opinion at all!!! Not to put down nurses, but many are not up to date on current research like doctors are. DH is a physician and knows cardiologists and infectious disease doctors and none have expressed any doubts at all. DS’s endocrinologist recommends he get the vaccine (her husband is the physician for a big state university’s football team, and they have seen more myocarditis post covid than post vaccine).

I’m a nurse. This is a true statement.

[twowhat?]

I’m a nurse. This is a true statement.

And some doctors aren't either! :)

I (still) think benefits outweigh risks, but on a population level. I agree that the concerns are valid and everyone needs to discuss with their kids' doctors and make their own (tough!!!) decisions.

[MSWR0319]

Reporting back after my DS (15yo) got his 2d vax on Sunday - other than a fever and headache on the first day, he’s had no other side effects or concerns. For what it’s worth, our pediatric cardiologist has said he’s seen far more myocarditis cases from kids who have had covid vs kids who received the vaccine. Granted, perhaps that will change as the vaccine is available to kids for a longer period and they have more data.

As for the nurse saying there’s no way she’d give it to her own child, my DH is a dr and he gave it to his covid-antibodied, congenital heart defect kid (with heart defects serious enough to warrant surgery in the next year or two), and that was after speaking with epidemiology and our pediatric cardiologist. Also, we have 2 good friends who are adult cardiologists, one who is Harvard educated and trained and the other who is a top heart transplant surgeon at UCLA and both had their own kids get the vaccine. It’s not to say they’re right and the nurse is wrong, but to offer other input on the subject.


I would not trust a random nurse’s opinion at all!!! Not to put down nurses, but many are not up to date on current research like doctors are. DH is a physician and knows cardiologists and infectious disease doctors and none have expressed any doubts at all. DS’s endocrinologist recommends he get the vaccine (her husband is the physician for a big state university’s football team, and they have seen more myocarditis post covid than post vaccine).

I agree with all of this. DS2 is in the Pfizer trial and getting his second shot as I type. I called our family doctor and DS1’s ped cardiologist just to make sure I’m not crazy for going through with this, and both assured me that they are seeing way more myocarditis from covid. They are strongly encouraging vaccines. When the study doctor called yesterday to go over the new heart warning, she said they were seeing myocarditis in 1 out of 55 covid cases and 1 out of 62,000 for the vaccine. I think the number for the vaccine is lower than 62,000 but no where near what they’re seeing from covid. Our cardiologist actually said 1 out of 45 for covid and many are asymptomatic covid cases that develop it. He also mentioned a study about college athletes where a high percentage had myocarditis after covid and only a small amount after the shot. I’m not going to say I won’t be on edge the next few days, but given the fact that our area is low vaccination rate and cases are starting to go up with no mask wearing I feel this is the right choice for us (and pray it’s not the place I!). I’m glad DS1 got his series completed just as this was coming out so I don’t have to worry about him, but I’d do it again even if I had to worry for a week. The freedom he’s gotten since being fully vaccinated is so wonderful, and I love hearing his friends in the basement with him having a good time.

ETA: DS has two friends with parents as doctors and they both got their shots. One is due for his second next week and they are still planning on getting it.

[Kindra178]

I'm worried specifically about the second vax post covid infection. I would be less worried if kids didn't have Covid. My 12 year olds had almost no symptoms but my teen was sick. Not horrible, but sick. He did not get it when the four us had it. He got it from the basketball team.

[PZMommy]

I would not trust a random nurse’s opinion at all!!! Not to put down nurses, but many are not up to date on current research like doctors are. DH is a physician and knows cardiologists and infectious disease doctors and none have expressed any doubts at all. DS’s endocrinologist recommends he get the vaccine (her husband is the physician for a big state university’s football team, and they have seen more myocarditis post covid than post vaccine).

I’m not basing my decision on what the nurse said. I’m basing my decision on my discussion with my son’s pediatrician. I personally know of two 12 yr olds who were hospitalized with myocarditis after their second vax, which is why I was concerned. I’m at peace with my decision for now. I can always get him vaxed later, but I can’t “undo” a vax if I give it to him and then regret it. I definitely want to wait at least a few more months, but at this point I most likely won’t give it to him at all.

[3isEnough]

I’m a nurse. This is a true statement.

This made me laugh out loud! I almost posted something about nurses' vs doctors' approach to the covid vaccine in my post last night but didn't want to offend any nurses (not that what I was going to say was dismissive of nurses at all, but you never know how someone will interpret it). Anyway, what I was going to post was that my DH is part of a very large healthcare organization and the vaccination rate among doctors is really high and the vaccination rate of nurses is shockingly low. It's a head-scratcher.

[dogmom]

This made me laugh out loud! I almost posted something about nurses' vs doctors' approach to the covid vaccine in my post last night but didn't want to offend any nurses (not that what I was going to say was dismissive of nurses at all, but you never know how someone will interpret it). Anyway, what I was going to post was that my DH is part of a very large healthcare organization and the vaccination rate among doctors is really high and the vaccination rate of nurses is shockingly low. It's a head-scratcher.

I came via a non-traditional route to nursing. Depending on where you are a lot of older nurses come from a more traditional background. (Yes, I realize I’m making gross generalizations here.) I think a higher percent of nurses are married to cops & firefighter than the general population. So sometimes it’s a conflict between what you apply at work and what your tribe is at home. In long term and home care nurses and aids are more likely to be immigrants of color. Additionally as a profession it has a wide range of education and practice.

[Liziz]

Honestly, the approaches of the medical profession to COVID has taught me (or, reminded me) that nurses and doctors are actually people first, and people come in a wide variety of opinions. When it comes to COVID I've realized DH and I need to make our own decisions for our family and get information from a wide variety of sources - I have zero trust in any one single medical professional's opinion on this matter - this is new to EVERYONE, physicians and nurses included.

I have personal experience with a pediatrician saying "if your child doesn't have a sore throat it's not COVID and I won't recommend testing, plus I'm happy to write you (the parent) a note allowing them back to school and saying it's not COVID (without a negative test to prove it)". I also have personal experience with a nurse friend of mine who has done incredibly meticulous research and followed numerous reputable sources and read any COVID related studies she can get her hands on -- WAY more than my physician DH. I can think of one pediatrician who is hesitant to vaccinate her children, and I also know another another 5-6 (DH and I are both in the medical industry so we know a lot of doctors, I don't just randomly seek them out, lol) who are eager to get their kids vaccinated ASAP, including some who signed their kids up for the clinical trials. At the end of the day we have to go with who we personally trust and the information we research and trust - no one person has a perfect answer right now.

I think this is going to be a lot like the "in-person school or not?" debate of last fall -- there are pros and cons on both sides, and reasonable choices on both sides. There's definitely no clear right or wrong. Ultimately, we as parents will have to just make a choice, trust that it's right for our family, and move forward confidently! (My kids are both under 12 so it's not a decision point yet for us, but clearly we'll be in the same boat sooner or later -- hopefully sooner!).

[JBaxter]

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/michigan-boy-13-dies-after-second-covid-19-vaccine-shot?fbclid=IwAR0UHRWlgln7KYdQOhX5M8gDIcNae1xGMD-ppSNKCtParlPO8MpyznyYDN0
Michigan boy, 13, dies after second COVID-19 vaccine shot
Health officials describe Jacob Clynick as a healthy boy with no underlying health conditions.

He received his second dose of the Pfizer vaccine at a Walgreens in Zilwaukee, Mich. on June 13, his aunt Tammy Burages told the Detroit Free Press.

He also had the usual symptoms after getting his second shot. Clynick said he felt tired and had a fever.
The family was told that preliminary autopsy findings suggest Jacob's heart was enlarged when he died and there was fluid around his heart, Burages reportedly said.

[chlobo]

Honestly, the approaches of the medical profession to COVID has taught me (or, reminded me) that nurses and doctors are actually people first, and people come in a wide variety of opinions. When it comes to COVID I've realized DH and I need to make our own decisions for our family and get information from a wide variety of sources - I have zero trust in any one single medical professional's opinion on this matter - this is new to EVERYONE, physicians and nurses included.

I have personal experience with a pediatrician saying "if your child doesn't have a sore throat it's not COVID and I won't recommend testing, plus I'm happy to write you (the parent) a note allowing them back to school and saying it's not COVID (without a negative test to prove it)". I also have personal experience with a nurse friend of mine who has done incredibly meticulous research and followed numerous reputable sources and read any COVID related studies she can get her hands on -- WAY more than my physician DH. I can think of one pediatrician who is hesitant to vaccinate her children, and I also know another another 5-6 (DH and I are both in the medical industry so we know a lot of doctors, I don't just randomly seek them out, lol) who are eager to get their kids vaccinated ASAP, including some who signed their kids up for the clinical trials. At the end of the day we have to go with who we personally trust and the information we research and trust - no one person has a perfect answer right now.

I think this is going to be a lot like the "in-person school or not?" debate of last fall -- there are pros and cons on both sides, and reasonable choices on both sides. There's definitely no clear right or wrong. Ultimately, we as parents will have to just make a choice, trust that it's right for our family, and move forward confidently! (My kids are both under 12 so it's not a decision point yet for us, but clearly we'll be in the same boat sooner or later -- hopefully sooner!).

This is all so true. So many people, so many different opinions.

[dogmom]

This is all so true. So many people, so many different opinions.

The big caveat I would put on that is there are opinions and then there are opinions. At one end you have some QAnon type screaming “do your own research!” Which by that they mean watch YouTube videos when YouTube’s algorithm will push you into more and more extreme stuff. On the other side is someone with some training, time and aptitude that does a lot of research and has the skill to communicate findings to you without being a jerk about it. Most people fall somewhere in between. So not all opinions are equal. Not all of us have equal ability to process information. Very few of us have the ability to tease out our emotional biases from reasoned thought process. That’s just what being human is.

I mostly wish people could recognize that so much of these decisions are being as much emotionally as factually driven. One of the reasons parents are having such a hard time deciding to get kids vaccinated is it feels like there is this big decision th they have complete control over. They don’t have complete control over how schools are run, if your community is going to take COVID seriously, if your teen is going to follow the rules. It wasn’t such a big decision for me because I just couldn’t not get it for my entire family the after going through everything I did. (And they felt the same way.) So it didn’t seem like this huge decision. Was much easier to just look at it and go, Looks mostly safe, probably safer than a lot of other things, has a lot upside, yep, we are doing it. I already had no illusion of control over any of this pandemic. That was beaten out of me sometime last April.

[MSWR0319]

The big caveat I would put on that is there are opinions and then there are opinions. At one end you have some QAnon type screaming “do your own research!” Which by that they mean watch YouTube videos when YouTube’s algorithm will push you into more and more extreme stuff. On the other side is someone with some training, time and aptitude that does a lot of research and has the skill to communicate findings to you without being a jerk about it. Most people fall somewhere in between. So not all opinions are equal. Not all of us have equal ability to process information. Very few of us have the ability to tease out our emotional biases from reasoned thought process. That’s just what being human is.

I mostly wish people could recognize that so much of these decisions are being as much emotionally as factually driven. One of the reasons parents are having such a hard time deciding to get kids vaccinated is it feels like there is this big decision th they have complete control over. They don’t have complete control over how schools are run, if your community is going to take COVID seriously, if your teen is going to follow the rules. It wasn’t such a big decision for me because I just couldn’t not get it for my entire family the after going through everything I did. (And they felt the same way.) So it didn’t seem like this huge decision. Was much easier to just look at it and go, Looks mostly safe, probably safer than a lot of other things, has a lot upside, yep, we are doing it. I already had no illusion of control over any of this pandemic. That was beaten out of me sometime last April.

I think you're right. For me, the decision was fairly easy because it was the one thing I could control. I could get them the shot and feel good knowing they had some protection instead of worrying about schools not requiring masks in the fall or where friend X has been and what he might be giving to my kids. I can't keep them locked up and away from people forever, so this was the one way I could control something. Yes, there were risks but I felt ok with them as much as I could and everyone in my family was equally onboard (even my 9 year old who wanted to be part of the trial). Everything has a risk and this was a risk I was willing to take (and I'm not a big risk taker).

[mommy111]

It was based in the way they are made. She did not like the MRNA vaccines for kids (or anyone actually. She got the Johnson and Johnson one herself) and preferred the vaccines that were more “traditional”. None of those have been approved for kids yet, so that is why she is fine with waiting either for them, or not giving it to kids at all at this point.
That’s really interesting because, AFAIK, the J&J It’s not a traditional vaccine but a gene therapy vaccine, so not any more traditional then the messenger RNA vaccines. The traditional one is the Chinese vaccine that does not work as well. But maybe I’m wrong?

[twowhat?]

That’s really interesting because, AFAIK, the J&J It’s not a traditional vaccine but a gene therapy vaccine, so not any more traditional then the messenger RNA vaccines. The traditional one is the Chinese vaccine that does not work as well. But maybe I’m wrong?

Kind of. J&J's vaccine is a viral vector-based vaccine, which is not a new technology. But it's also not a "traditional" vaccine, which is antigen injected into the body (for example, inactivated virus like with the flu shot; Sinovac is a traditional vaccine). J&J's virus vector gets the genetic code for the spike protein into your cells, and then your cell's machinery decodes and makes the spike protein (antigen). Your immune system then says "oh hey, this spike protein isn't one of us" and sounds the alarm. "Gene therapy" is a misnomer, and I believe is what scares a bunch of laypeople into thinking the vaccines are going to modify your DNA. They're not. Vaccines aren't gene therapy...gene therapy is stuff like treating a disease caused by a mutated gene by replacing or fixing the mutated gene. Viruses can be used as vectors to get the fixed gene into cells (hence the confusion) but the technology is different than J&J's vaccine technology for a bunch of way more complicated reasons.