If you are wondering why education is going down the tubes…(long post)

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Originally Posted by bubbaray

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

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Oh my. I've typed several responses but keep deleting. I'll let the teachers on here take a stab at this!

I respectfully disagree with absolutely everything that you have said here, Melissa. I'm going to extrapolate a bit b/c my dh is a University professor not k-12 but the facts are just the same.

First of all, teachers are not paid for 3 months vacation. My dh is paid for 9 months of work. He chooses to have the pay for those 9 months spread over 12 months so that he has a consistent paycheck.

Secondly, I think it's entirely innaccurate to broadly claim that teachers do not work past 8-3p.m. That may be more often the case with some teachers (grade and subject depending), but I promise that is not the case as students get older and homework becomes more complex. My dh spends HOURS at home grading papers and keeping up with the readings that he has assigned. HOURS.

Additionally, a GOOD teacher does not create a curriculum and then simply follow that curriculum for the next 30 years. A good teacher evaluates the successes and challenges of each year and is always developing their curriculum and evolving as a teacher.

Finally, I think teachers can be making pretty good money, yes. But they are constantly battling the perception that they make "too much" or that they're "benefits are too good". What is that? We should be paying our educators well because paying them well would help ensure that the field of education ISN'T second place to getting into some other professional school. That alone would attract better candidates.

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours. 8:30-3pm is part time hours in law. I know HS teachers IRL and none of them are working at night. None. They do not mark papers or prep for the next day at night -- they get blocks of time during 8:30-3pm to do that.

Teachers here rarely *develop* their own curriculum. They can add to the standard one, but the curricula here are very detailed. I personally know teachers who are consistently highly rated who have used the same curricula for 25+ yrs of teaching. One teacher friend told me that and laughed about it.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve a fair wage and decent benefits. I just don't think they deserve 6 figure incomes with 3m vacation during the year. Nor do they deserve a 20% wage increase in one year or 10 days off if a friend (not a relative) dies. Or 5 more pro-D days (so they can play Scrabble with their co-workers).

We have a teachers strike on here right now (more of a work to rule) and there is ZERO public support for the teachers. People are just completely horrified when they find out what the current contract and the demands of the teachers union are all about. The media is having a field day. My teacher friends are embarrased by the union demands and they fear with all the media coverage, they are going to see severe wage and benefit concessions.

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Originally Posted by bubbaray

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

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Melissa, you seem to be able to find time to post and read BBB during work :)

I am going to ignore the more offensive parts of some of the previous posts.
I am not a teacher but I do work in a public school.

I have worked for 7 years in a very affluent school district in the most highly taxed county in the country, just outside of NYC. I still do not make a 6 figure salary and I have more graduate education than most teachers and therefore I earn more than a teacher with the same years of experience. Teachers here make 100k after about 15-20 years of teaching, so it should not be implied that all teachers are earning "6 figures".

I am expected to be at work at 7:30 and work until 3 and this is STANDARD at all the schools around here. I don't think 8:30 to 3 is at all the norm.

I work from home regularly. I give parents my cell phone number so that they can call me when it is convenient for them at night or in the morning before school when they can't get their kid out of bed to come to school.

I am making an effort to leave at 3pm this year while DD is in kindergarten but in previous years I regularly stayed at work until 4-5pm and I write ALL psychological reports AT HOME.

Teachers in my parish start out at $32K. I'm not sure what that's at by the time they retire, but I guarantee it's nowhere near six figures.

If teachers made six figure salaries, I'd be putting my Spanish Ed degree to good use instead of going back to school.

If the teachers you know are making $100K+ a year and only working 8-3:30, you're comparing apples to oranges given the situation of many (probably most) teachers in the U.S. I'm not discounting your opinion given the situation you seem to be in, but most people in this thread aren't talking about teacher salaries anywhere near what you're discussing.

Maybe this is different in Canada, but I have never heard of a teacher making 6 figures. I just looked up my district and it tops out near 70k. With 40 years and a phd.

I don't think it is possible to convince someone who has never taught that it is harder than it looks. I have been a teacher and a lawyer and both are hard in different ways. I truly couldn't say one is "harder".

I think tying to performance doesn't work. Why should a teacher be graded on the performance of a student who transfers in 2 dyas before a test? Or a student who spent the night inl a shelter? Or a student who has been abused that morning before school?

But on the flip side, my husband (not a teacher) also hasn't had a raise in years, worked longer hours at 80% pay for two of those years until we dexided I could no noger sahm. So it isn,t just teachers struggling right now.

(Typing on my stupid phone)

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Originally Posted by bubbaray

:yeahthat: No one will ever convince me that teaching is hard. Period. Teachers here earn insanely high salaries relative to the amount of education they have -- and they get 3m of paid vacation annually (2m summer, 2w Christmas and 2w Spring Break), plus 6 pro-D days (and they want 5 more, but that ain't happening, as the media just busted a HS pro-D day that involved playing games at a dude ranch).

I know many many teachers IRL and they work 8:30 to 3, on a long day. Once they have a couple of years of experience and lesson plans, its just routine -- no prep involved, they just show up each day and teach. They get regular breaks through the day. They don't even have to mark at night b/c they get marking time during the work day. Every single person I knew in university who went into teaching did so b/c they did not get into any other professional school and they wanted buckets of vacation time -- nice motivation!

Trust me, as someone who has practiced law for almost 2 decades now, teaching is a cakewalk compared to litigation. I can't remember the last time I took a lunch or coffee break. I certainly don't get 3m holidays a year and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to take it due to crushing workloads.

I don't have anything against teachers making a fair wage for their relative schooling. But I definitely do not think that they are underpaid and overworked.

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The thing that is difficult in conversations like this is that teaching/teacher experiences differ so widely. The situation you describe above is very similar to the one in which I grew up- working class town in which the teachers were the highest paid people, many making $75K +, leaving school as soon as the final bell rang, many unmotivated to do much to improve their teaching in the classroom (i.e. just going through the motions), and so forth. In that situation, yes, other people would just roll their eyes when the teachers complained about things.

HOWEVER, my DH is also a teacher, and his experience is NOTHING like what you describe. He has 2 MAs from a prestigious school, coaches 2 sports and advises another school organization. He leaves for work around 7:30 and comes home about 6:00 when he is not coaching (2 months), and comes home between 7:00 and 10:00 when he is coaching (8 months). And then spends several hours per night grading, emailing parents, etc. Yes he gets 2 months off in the summer and an extended Christmas break, but he spends quite a bit of that working hard to improve his classes- revising lecture notes, attending conferences, reading books on pedagogy and the subject matter he teaches. DH loves his job, but it is HARD. A lot harder then many people realize. Not that other jobs aren't also demanding, but teaching is mentally exhausting and extremely time consuming if done well. For the amount of time he puts in, he gets paid peanuts.

I think it's a darn shame that teaching isn't respected enough in our society to pay good teachers what they're worth. Starting salaries of $32,000, which is common in our area (middle COL), are not enough to support a middle class family, particularly on one income. IME, many people think that it's great when others decide to become teachers, but they'd never do it themselves because of all the crud that teachers have to put up with, along with the lousy pay. I do think that that in theory performance pay can be a good thing, because I don't think that good teachers should have anything to fear from it, and it could help to motivate teachers who are more inclined to just coast on not put much effort into their jobs. As you say, many teachers try to milk the system, and they should be held accountable and weeded out, so that highly motivated teachers can succeed and be compensated for their efforts. But in reality, I don't know what pay based on job performance would or should look like. There is so much bureaucracy involved with public schools and teaching that I doubt this will happen any time soon. But I firmly believe that schools are underfunded, and that teaching as a profession is undervalued. Done well, it is very, very hard.

ETA: I grew up in an area with a powerful teachers union, and that clearly affected teacher's attitudes toward their jobs. We currently live in a non-unionized area, which helps explain the lower pay and longer hours in this area. I'm by no means anti-union, but I think that often unions don't necessarily have the teachers' or the the students' best interests at heart.

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Originally Posted by Hawkeyewife

We have lived in two different school districts in two different states due to my husband's job and my kids have attended/attend 3 elementary schools (one charter school, and now a neighborhood elem and a full time gifted school.)

I guess we have been VERY lucky. The teachers in our district are paid well, have supplies and parents and PTAs that support them financially and in the classroom. I don't want to sound braggy, but my kids have smart boards, computers, I-Pads etc in their classrooms, art and science labs, music enrichment, PE everyday etc... and we haven't lived in very rich or exclusive neighborhoods (comfortably middle class.)

My sister lives in the Northern VA and just finished a Master's in Ed in the spring after living overseas for many years and not working (Undergrad in Art History) and was hired 2 days before the beginning of the school year making $50k teaching a 4th grade class. Her two kids (2nd and K also attend the school.) So far, so good, she got lesson plan help from a neighbor that has been a teacher for some time and she hasn't spent a cent of her own money on school related items. I know my sister hasn't been teaching very long, but so far its not THAT hard, at least for her. These are her words...

Maybe we are in the minority. If we move to an area with less desirable schools, I plan on home schooling.

Maybe it due to the fact that we move so frequently due to DHs job, but is it out of the question to move to an area that pays better/appreciates their teachers etc. My sister got a job in a very competitive area about a month after coming back to the US, so it is not impossible.

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Northern, VA is a different story than most of the country. We have a very low unemployment rate here and many towns spend a lot of money funding the schools. That is not the case in most of the country.

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Originally Posted by bubbaray

Whether a teacher has their 6 figure salary spread over 9m or 12m really isn't the issue when they work (relative to hours I am used to) part time hours. 8:30-3pm is part time hours in law. I know HS teachers IRL and none of them are working at night. None. They do not mark papers or prep for the next day at night -- they get blocks of time during 8:30-3pm to do that.

Teachers here rarely *develop* their own curriculum. They can add to the standard one, but the curricula here are very detailed. I personally know teachers who are consistently highly rated who have used the same curricula for 25+ yrs of teaching. One teacher friend told me that and laughed about it.

I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve a fair wage and decent benefits. I just don't think they deserve 6 figure incomes with 3m vacation during the year. Nor do they deserve a 20% wage increase in one year or 10 days off if a friend (not a relative) dies. Or 5 more pro-D days (so they can play Scrabble with their co-workers).

We have a teachers strike on here right now (more of a work to rule) and there is ZERO public support for the teachers. People are just completely horrified when they find out what the current contract and the demands of the teachers union are all about. The media is having a field day. My teacher friends are embarrased by the union demands and they fear with all the media coverage, they are going to see severe wage and benefit concessions.

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I don't live in Canada, so maybe y'all pay your teachers a lot better than we do here in the US, but I don't know a single teacher in this country who makes a 6-figure salary (excluding administrators). My Mom was a teacher for nearly 30 years in Connecticut, the state that typically has the highest paid teachers, and she did not make close to six-figures. My mom went to work each morning before 7am and stayed until 5pm. She brought homework home to grade. She updated her lesson plans annually and spent tons of time in the summer in her classroom setting it up for her students. She took great pride in making her classroom a beautiful and inviting place for her students to ensure that she got the year off on the right foot. She took classes every year to stay up to date and maximize her efficacy of a teacher. She touched the lives of hundreds of children and brought about a love of reading, writing, science and math.

Teachers work very hard for a pay that really is not sufficient. They deal with disturbed children, dreadful parents, politics of school administration and absolutely no respect from most of the public. I switched out of the Education program at my undergrad in my junior year to pursue an accounting degree because of these harsh realities. And yet, teachers perform what, IMHO, is the most important profession in the world. What could be more important than teaching our precious children? Teachers are heroes. They are smart people who could have done anything as a career but instead choose to work for low pay and no respect because they believe they can make a difference with children. They deserve appropriate wages but more than that they deserve our respect.

I've never met a teacher who makes 6 figures. Here's the pay scale for the county I used to sub in.

http://www.nctq.org/docs/28-07_6859.pdf

Starting salary=38.500
10 years experience=41,711
20 years=62.677
If you have a PhD, you can add a whopping $8,000 to your salary. Some incentive, huh?

In my current county, a first year teacher makes 35,924. 10 years will get you 45,313. 20 years=52,520. I've also never met a teacher who doesn't grade at night, doesn't work weekends, or who takes leisurely breaks during the day. They are there before school starts in the morning, have meetings and parent conferences after school, and typically have to monitor recess and/or lunch, as well as pick-ups, at least once a week. I think a more typical workday is 7-5, with some work done in the evenings.

I think the most effective things we could do would be to increase teacher training, set the standards for certification higher, and to pay a more competitive salary that would reflect those higher standards. We need reasonably sized classrooms, aides for classrooms that need them, and accommodations for students that need those. We need continue teacher training, and we need to use evidence-based methods to teach our kids. We need to get rid of the time wasters, and the busy work. All of those things take money, and nobody wants to foot the bill, especially not the high ranking folks who the real money goes to.

My BA is in psychology. When I finished that, I went back to school to take the classes I needed to be certified to teach K-6. Most of the classes were a total joke compared to those I had to take to earn my BA. It's hard to attract the best and the brightest to teaching when the training is inadequate, the pay is bad, the demands are constantly increasing, and the support is continually decreasing. If we continue to add hoops for teachers to jump through, especially when what we're asking of them is only partially in their control, before you know it, we'll be left with a few extremely dedicated people, and a lot of people who couldn't hack it in any other profession. Is that who you want teaching your kids?