Questions on AP Capstone --Research class vs. 3 years of language

aaargggh. I hate picking classes with my kids. We have to make some decisions for DS. He really is interested in urban planning/design. We are looking at colleges in the 5-10K person range, all on the west coast. He may or may not be interested in Civil Engineering. He currently has a 3.8 in a rigorous curriculum--but not top of the line due to his processing speed/dyslexia issues and his anxiety. Please help us decide between an AP Research class vs. a 3rd year of language.

For Senior year, he will have AP US Government and AP English Language. He has had 2 AP classes a year since he was a sophomore and does well with them. His course plan is currently something like:
AP US Government
AP English Language
Physics (just regular-not honors or AP)
Calculs (just regular, not AP)
Peer Ministry (he goes to a Catholic School so he has to take religious ed every year)
Oceanography/Astronomy (he has been looking forward to these classes since he was a freshman)

Then there are 2 classes we have to figure out what to do with. He can take Theater IV--he likes theater a great deal, so he probably will do that for one class. He can take AP Research and get an AP Capstone Diploma. But that's a 3rd AP class and its an elective--it doesn't count as his English credit. The Capstone Diploma looks good--but how good??? And----he only has 2 years of language. I know he really, really needs 3 years to be competitive for college admissions. The dyslexia makes learning a second language hard for him. He did well in Spanish 1 & 2 but those were easy classes. Spanish 3 steps it up a notch. I *might* be able to get him to take a Spanish class over the summer at the local Community College or something like that. But it seems to me that having him take Spanish 3 is important. I wonder about the wisdom of taking the 3rd AP class when he hasn't even fulfilled the preferred (in some cases, required), language classes. He is hoping to claim the dyslexia card to get out of languages but I think that's a no go.

For reference, the colleges we are looking at are along the lines of Gonzaga, University of Santa Cruz, University of Portland, University of Denver, etc. So not Stanford or Cal Poly, etc.

TIA in advance for your thoughts!!!

Language in college was harder than in high school; a semester in college was the equivalent to a year in high school. I would see if that is still true.

I am not familiar with a capstone diploma.

UC schools trend to like out of state applicants.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...our-favor/amp/

https://blog.collegevine.com/uc-scho...eptance-rates/

https://www.collegekickstart.com/blo...mission-trends


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would think you could easily find a theater program outside of school; is that an option? That would allow you to take both the language and research. That is a heavy class load, though. Does he do outside activities as well? Would he have time for that heavy a workload?

As someone who just helped my kid send in their last college application 19!days ago I am shocked how little senior year counts vs when I went. It counts even less if you are going to do all early action and early decision. I have a few thoughts that come to mind.

Since you won’t even have a full semesters grade when applying do some places I would put too much weight on his class. Yes, I’m sure they want to see he’s not taking all easy classes, but the AP he is taking proves he’s not slacking off.

Applying is a PIA and stressful. That’s kind of a separate class for a semester. Because of reduced schedule my son had two “free” periods thus term and none next. It definitely gave him time to do the college app stuff. (Please note we did it all ourselves. Completely doable.)

Since I didn’t hire a college counselor I did a lot of reading and watching conversations with actual admissions people at colleges. To me it seems like the bigger, prestigious state schools are a lot of metrics. The smaller schools have such a range of criteria you would go crazy trying to figure out in your year if this class give this difference in admissions. Which leads to..

I would just let him decide what he would actually enjoy doing. If a theater class is what he wants, do that. There is a lot of evidence to suggest arts programs decrease anxiety in some kids. That would be positive and show he can communicate to and admissions office. If he really wants a language or challenge course, do that. I think they all sound good for colleges. Maybe different colleges have slight preferences, but he will get in somewhere that he wants. Don’t drive yourself crazy trying figure this black box system out. .

I don't think that language thing is necessarily true. Mine only had 2 years of foreign language and got into the schools he applies to (with the exception of the one crazy stretch Ivy that he never expected to get into anyway).
There are way too many wildcards in college admissions to try and play the game (racial diversity, economic diversity, geographic location,...). Don't bother. Let him follow his passion. It's high school. He'll land in a college somewhere. High school is his time to take things he enjoys nor having to pay for them like he would in college. So, theater and research win for me. Skip the language. If those schools do specifically require 3 years then do something over the summer, like you suggested. But, leave it up to him and don't make it a huge deal if he chooses to roll the dice on just having 2 years of language.
I think that he will stand out more if he takes a class in something he is passionate about and can speak to that in essays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I would think you could easily find a theater program outside of school; is that an option? That would allow you to take both the language and research. That is a heavy class load, though. Does he do outside activities as well? Would he have time for that heavy a workload?

---

Theater was my ds1's favorite part of high school and it was being with his friends/ peers that made it so great. I am sure he would have enjoyed forming a community in an outside class but his theater class, choirs, plays and musicals in school were just an experience that couldn't be duplicated elsewhere. He was lucky though- his public high school was renowned for having an amazing theater program so not participating would have been nuts. Other schools, I'm sure it's not a huge deal.
It's also senior year. Why not have some fun?! OP's schedule otherwise looks pretty intense. Having one class in there that is fun and less academic sounds good to me. :)

I would discuss the pro's and con's (from his perspective and from yours) of each option and then let him pick. He's the one who has to take the class, and he already has a difficult schedule of core classes.

What does he want to do? I'd go with that? I think the AP Capstone also requires a research paper too, so is he up for that?

I'd really look to see if any of the schools absolutely require 3 years of language. If one he's excited to go to does, then take the Spanish. If it's just recommended, I'd probably skip it then.

Also will his college major require a foreign language? If so, will taking Spanish in 12th make it easier to knock out the language requirement in college? If not, again, I'd be fine skipping it.

Personally I think any combination of the 3 is fine. Junior year is more important since the colleges will see the entire year on the application.

The ap research class sounds like a drag and potentially time consuming work (although maybe would pay off to develop those skills). I agree with others, the college application process is stressful, and really hard to game. I would have him pick, but between the research class and the language I would pick the language- although that schedule looks awfully packed to me for senior year already! I will say that my ds was on an "easier" language track for spanish, and did not find that it got much more difficult as he progressed.

Disclaimer. I'm not even sure we're discussing the same class...I remember listening to an AP teacher talk about why she didn't really like the research project AP class, which I'm assuming (perhaps falsely) that it is the same as this AP Capstone. Anyway, the class she taught she described as a bit of a missed opportunity. In a college setting, under the advisement of a professor a student would be able to be led to produce a piece of good research. She described that she was not able to provide any feedback on the research project and found it frustrating to see good students spin their wheels on things that had fundamental flaws and she couldn't do anything about it. She felt like it would be a much better class and project if that kind of advisement could be included.

I would do 3 years of language. We're in CA and my son's private high school makes it mandatory for all students to do 3 years of language to be competitive, especially for any UC schools. DS1 hated Spanish but had to power through for all 3 years even though he has 3 years of Japanese outside of school (his HS wouldn't count it).

Sent from my SM-A515U1 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by essnce629

I would do 3 years of language. We're in CA and my son's private high school makes it mandatory for all students to do 3 years of language to be competitive, especially for any UC schools. DS1 hated Spanish but had to power through for all 3 years even though he has 3 years of Japanese outside of school (his HS wouldn't count it).

Sent from my SM-A515U1 using Tapatalk

---

I agree with this comment as well. 3 years of language is very important around here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bisous

Disclaimer. I'm not even sure we're discussing the same class...I remember listening to an AP teacher talk about why she didn't really like the research project AP class, which I'm assuming (perhaps falsely) that it is the same as this AP Capstone. Anyway, the class she taught she described as a bit of a missed opportunity. In a college setting, under the advisement of a professor a student would be able to be led to produce a piece of good research. She described that she was not able to provide any feedback on the research project and found it frustrating to see good students spin their wheels on things that had fundamental flaws and she couldn't do anything about it. She felt like it would be a much better class and project if that kind of advisement could be included.

---

I am pretty sure it is the same class and the no involvement part rings true based on the companion AP Seminar class he took his sophomore year. (that counted as an English credit) Very good point.

I'm only responding on the foreign language aspect.... my daughter has dyslexia too. We have made the decision to 'pull the dyslexia card' -- she will not be taking any language in high school. She tried to take Latin under recommendation of several in our local dyslexia community and was unsuccessful. She was exposed to some Spanish instruction in elementary school. She has also unsuccessfully tried to learn to read music on several occasions with very talented teachers. She and I are convinced that the amount of effort necessary for her to learn vocabulary, grammar and comprehension of a foreign language is far too demanding for what she might gain. We have accepted the fact that there are some schools and some degree programs that will not want my daughter as a student --- fine, those schools will not be a good fit for her. She has taken a lot of computer programming courses --- which I understand some schools consider as an alternative to foreign language. We will request a waiver for any language requirement -- if it is not given, we will look elsewhere. My DD has amazing strengths -- we will choose learning environments that help her build upon these skills and talents.

1 in 5 students are dyslexic -- there is a wide range in how the learning difference affects different students. Your son apparently has been successful despite his challenges. Congratulations to him for his hard work. If he has particular schools he is set on attending, I would reach out to the disability services departments and see if a 3rd year of language would make a difference. Then, with that information -- let him decide if he wants to do the work to take the next class.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. Some answers:
I think the bottom line is that the Research class and the Capstone is not necessary. He has done research papers in other classes and the point about teachers not being able to help students in that class all points to not taking that class.

So then the question is--take Spanish or have a free period. Right now his favorite school is Santa Clara University (not UC Santa Cruz, my bad). They require 2 years of language, recommend 3 years, and prefer 4. So I would really like him to take the language. BUT--he has 4 years of history and 4 years of science and 4 of math. Some schools (Santa Clara included) only require 3 years in those areas. So he is over in that and under in language. The issue is that Spanish 3 is hard and even harder with dyslexia. meh, maybe he just plays the dyslexia card and rests on the other classes and his activities.

My take on college is why shut yourself out of something because of a choice you made in HS. And, not all colleges are created equal. He really would be so much better at a 5-10K student school but I am not paying to send him to just any college when he can go to the local U for really cheap. (but its huge and I want him to leave the state) He is involved in Student Council and is a school ambassador. He will also have activities outside of school as a Peer Minister.

I volunteer as an alumni interviewer for kids in my area who can't get to the East Coast to interview at my alma mater--which is a top 10 SLAC. Those kids are all taking 4 AP classes or getting an IB diploma and doing volunteer work, activities, etc. These are awesome, interesting, well balanced kids. So DS's schedule does not look packed at all to me. But neither one of my kids is on the path for a top 10 SLAC. They want something bigger with an engineering degree or a really good theater tech/design department. I worked in admissions while I was in college. Things have totally changed. I will be working with DS to get all of the Common App stuff loaded this summer and the statement written. He will not be able to handle the stress of applying to colleges and school (nor will I). I am going to use a college consultant for him. It will be worth the gray hairs saved and I live in a place where college consulting means you pay a flat fee for 4 sessions and some good guidance. It is not an exorbitant price and I don't interact with tiger parents thank goodness!

Thanks again for your insights. I am sure I will be coming back for more!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Percycat

I'm only responding on the foreign language aspect.... my daughter has dyslexia too. We have made the decision to 'pull the dyslexia card' -- she will not be taking any language in high school. She tried to take Latin under recommendation of several in our local dyslexia community and was unsuccessful. She was exposed to some Spanish instruction in elementary school. She has also unsuccessfully tried to learn to read music on several occasions with very talented teachers. She and I are convinced that the amount of effort necessary for her to learn vocabulary, grammar and comprehension of a foreign language is far too demanding for what she might gain. We have accepted the fact that there are some schools and some degree programs that will not want my daughter as a student --- fine, those schools will not be a good fit for her. She has taken a lot of computer programming courses --- which I understand some schools consider as an alternative to foreign language. We will request a waiver for any language requirement -- if it is not given, we will look elsewhere. My DD has amazing strengths -- we will choose learning environments that help her build upon these skills and talents.

1 in 5 students are dyslexic -- there is a wide range in how the learning difference affects different students. Your son apparently has been successful despite his challenges. Congratulations to him for his hard work. If he has particular schools he is set on attending, I would reach out to the disability services departments and see if a 3rd year of language would make a difference. Then, with that information -- let him decide if he wants to do the work to take the next class.

---

Percycat--great idea on contacting the disability services department! We will have him re-do neuropsych testing so he continues to qualify for extra time on tests (that's his only accommodation right now). But I hadn't thought about contacting that department before we even apply. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

My take on college is why shut yourself out of something because of a choice you made in HS. And, not all colleges are created equal. He really would be so much better at a 5-10K student school but I am not paying to send him to just any college when he can go to the local U for really cheap. (but its huge and I want him to leave the state) He is involved in Student Council and is a school ambassador. He will also have activities outside of school as a Peer Minister.

---

I'm sure my comments made it sound like I'd just say close of the potential of some schools. But, I'm not. I'm saying that there is not enough rhyme or reason to the college selection process and trying to figure it out isn't how we chose to approach things. 3 years of language is great but only if he can be successful. What if he takes it and tanks his GPA in the process?

Ultimately though this should be mostly driven by him. What if he wants to stay in state and go to a different school than you prefer? Mine made that decision. The school he chose is a big head scratcher to me. He could have gone to a much more prestigious school and it ticked all of his boxes- overall it would have been a perfect fit (size, location, academic programs...). He chose something very different than I would have picked for him. After a bumpy first 2 weeks he went on to make a great group of friends and finished the semester with a 3.8- even took the weed out engineering calc class. It's his journey. I don't mean to sound all smug and all knowing but I wanted to share that I had to let go and let him make decisions for himself. It's easy enough to transfer if you choose poorly too. I am very happy with the tuition savings from his choice so that's a good perk. :)

Only scanned prior posts so forgive me if I'm duplicating.

The classes that OP is referring to are relatively new, and not offered at a ton of schools. It's a two year commitment for most - AP Seminar one year, and AP Research the second. Each year counts as one English class. As part of the second, they create a research study, conduct the research, write a 30 page (pretty sure) research paper, and do a 10 minute (I think) presentation. If they pass both, and get at least a 3 on a minimum number of other AP classes, they receive a Capstone Diploma. The Capstone Diploma was created partially to be like getting an IB diploma, but for those more interested in STEM classes than liberal arts.

DD is doing Research this is year. It is REALLY self directed, although the other teacher apparently directs a little more.

I'd check how many other AP classes are needed for the Capstone Diploma - that may make the answer easy as he may not have enough. I would also check the specific schools where he is thinking of applying - many have requirements on years of language, but many do not. I do think 'three years' in a pretty standard cutoff/requirement though.

Feel free to DM if I can answer any other questions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erosenst

Only scanned prior posts so forgive me if I'm duplicating.

The classes that OP is referring to are relatively new, and not offered at a ton of schools. It's a two year commitment for most - AP Seminar one year, and AP Research the second. Each year counts as one English class. As part of the second, they create a research study, conduct the research, write a 30 page (pretty sure) research paper, and do a 10 minute (I think) presentation. If they pass both, and get at least a 3 on a minimum number of other AP classes, they receive a Capstone Diploma. The Capstone Diploma was created partially to be like getting an IB diploma, but for those more interested in STEM classes than liberal arts.

DD is doing Research this is year. It is REALLY self directed, although the other teacher apparently directs a little more.

I'd check how many other AP classes are needed for the Capstone Diploma - that may make the answer easy as he may not have enough. I would also check the specific schools where he is thinking of applying - many have requirements on years of language, but many do not. I do think 'three years' in a pretty standard cutoff/requirement though.

Feel free to DM if I can answer any other questions.

---

Thanks for your response—confirms my thoughts on the capstone. He has enough AP credit, he is only miss the research class

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnuggleBuggles

I'm sure my comments made it sound like I'd just say close of the potential of some schools. But, I'm not. I'm saying that there is not enough rhyme or reason to the college selection process and trying to figure it out isn't how we chose to approach things. 3 years of language is great but only if he can be successful. What if he takes it and tanks his GPA in the process?

Ultimately though this should be mostly driven by him. What if he wants to stay in state and go to a different school than you prefer? Mine made that decision. The school he chose is a big head scratcher to me. He could have gone to a much more prestigious school and it ticked all of his boxes- overall it would have been a perfect fit (size, location, academic programs...). He chose something very different than I would have picked for him. After a bumpy first 2 weeks he went on to make a great group of friends and finished the semester with a 3.8- even took the weed out engineering calc class. It's his journey. I don't mean to sound all smug and all knowing but I wanted to share that I had to let go and let him make decisions for himself. It's easy enough to transfer if you choose poorly too. I am very happy with the tuition savings from his choice so that's a good perk. :)

---

I agree with this, even though I don't have any in college yet. There are just so, so many colleges out there. There will be one of the right size, location, etc that is completely fine with 2 years of Spanish. DS1 and I are talking a bit about colleges and he has no ideas at all of what he's looking for at this point. So even though yours is saying 5-10k student size and west coast, that could really change in a few months even.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisM

I agree with this, even though I don't have any in college yet. There are just so, so many colleges out there. There will be one of the right size, location, etc that is completely fine with 2 years of Spanish. DS1 and I are talking a bit about colleges and he has no ideas at all of what he's looking for at this point. So even though yours is saying 5-10k student size and west coast, that could really change in a few months even.

---

Yes to this. OP look at the California State University system. Only 2 years of a language, and if over a 3.61 SAT/ACT isn’t required but is recommended.

https://www2.calstate.edu/apply/fres...uirements.aspx

I know the OP said no to Cal Poly, but it is a great school and have many friends who loved there. Most of the people I know who went to either UC Santa Cruz or Cal Poly applied to both schools. I find them sort of similar vibe wise; both coastal and laid back. I applied to Cal Poly and SDSU and didn’t get into Cal Poly, but don’t regret my decision to go to SDSU which has the biggest student population in the CSU system and I was one of those kids who initially thought a SLAC would be the better fit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have actually been trying to research this for my oldest too. Foreign Language is not a strength for him. He took French 1 in 7th/8th, so he’s in French 3 as a sophomore. I know he’d love to just stop and focus on other things, maybe take 2 science classes next year. But it does seem like many schools really prefer 3-4 years of language (if he takes 4, the 4th year would be AP and I think he’d hate it). I have a “meeting” (I.e. zoom) with the college counselor next week, so I will see what kind of answer I get. He’s not a good test taker so he really needs to be able to keep up the high GPA, challenging schedule. He’s looking at similar types of schools in the Northeast and Northern Midwest, along with some pretty selective schools (but not Ivy League...Michigan, Northeastern, and Boston College)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnieW625

Yes to this. OP look at the California State University system. Only 2 years of a language, and if over a 3.61 SAT/ACT isn’t required but is recommended.

https://www2.calstate.edu/apply/fres...uirements.aspx

I know the OP said no to Cal Poly, but it is a great school and have many friends who loved there. Most of the people I know who went to either UC Santa Cruz or Cal Poly applied to both schools. I find them sort of similar vibe wise; both coastal and laid back. I applied to Cal Poly and SDSU and didn’t get into Cal Poly, but don’t regret my decision to go to SDSU which has the biggest student population in the CSU system and I was one of those kids who initially thought a SLAC would be the better fit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

DS couldn’t get into Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. I looked at their admit stats and they are super competitive.ost of the UC schools are too big for him. He is pretty clear on what he needs/wants. I guess there could be a surprise but I doubt it. DD is the one who wants to go to a big school and will look all over the US. Her process will be really interesting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

DS couldn’t get into Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. I looked at their admit stats and they are super competitive.ost of the UC schools are too big for him. He is pretty clear on what he needs/wants. I guess there could be a surprise but I doubt it. DD is the one who wants to go to a big school and will look all over the US. Her process will be really interesting

---

Look at Chico State as well (about a 12 hour drive from Salt Lake, I think). There is also a Cal Poly Pomona, (but no where near the coast) which is less competitive than SLO. UC Riverside is also smaller and less competitive than most UCs, but again not in a large hip college area. He will find his spot!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Go with the theater class! It will all shake out fine. Does he know what he would like to major in or study?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KpbS

Go with the theater class! It will all shake out fine. Does he know what he would like to major in or study?

---

He is really interested in Urban Planning. He took a week-long class during the summer at our local University. They took mass transit (train, bus, e-bikes, etc.) around town and looked at various city buildings. Then they had to build a model and pitch a plan to faculty. Our local U has one of the top rated graduate programs for Urban Planning. So it was a great week for him.

I’d have him do Spanish particularly since he has done well in it thus far. The AP class sounds boring and I don’t think the capstone means much. Presumably he’s learned how to write a research paper and make a presentation in his other AP classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

He is really interested in Urban Planning. He took a week-long class during the summer at our local University. They took mass transit (train, bus, e-bikes, etc.) around town and looked at various city buildings. Then they had to build a model and pitch a plan to faculty. Our local U has one of the top rated graduate programs for Urban Planning. So it was a great week for him.

---

That is so awesome! Can he go there as an undergrad as well? That would be my plan A for my DC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KpbS

That is so awesome! Can he go there as an undergrad as well? That would be my plan A for my DC.

---

Urban planning isn’t much of an undergraduate degree so the idea is to have him explore in college. He really needs to leave the state for 4 years. Our localUis really the only in state school to consider and I am adamant that my kids go away. I went across the country and it was very good for me. He will be within a long days drive no matter where he goes—only looking at western states. Then if he still wants urban planning he can come back for grad school

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

Urban planning isn’t much of an undergraduate degree so the idea is to have him explore in college. He really needs to leave the state for 4 years. Our localUis really the only in state school to consider and I am adamant that my kids go away. I went across the country and it was very good for me. He will be within a long days drive no matter where he goes—only looking at western states. Then if he still wants urban planning he can come back for grad school

---

How can you be so certain that going away is all that? I think living on campus absolutely matters, even if they are in the same town. But, I live in a city with amazing universities of all sizes and many kids choose those schools because they are really good. And many have parents on faculty and staff so major discounts (the choice between student loan debt or not is obviously appealing). These kids are thriving. They might move away for grad school or a job. I know many of them had the ability to go to other schools (financial means, accepted at other great schools). There are so many paths to success and enrichment. Like study abroad, a summer internship out of state...It’s great that leaving was good for you but I know lots of other people who didn’t and it was the right choice for them. I’m sure you would support your kids though if they had a compelling reason to choose a local school though. You seem like that kind of mom that would have a pro/con conversation and let them choose their path. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnuggleBuggles

How can you be so certain that going away is all that? I think living on campus absolutely matters, even if they are in the same town. But, I live in a city with amazing universities of all sizes and many kids choose those schools because they are really good. And many have parents on faculty and staff so major discounts (the choice between student loan debt or not is obviously appealing). These kids are thriving. They might move away for grad school or a job. I know many of them had the ability to go to other schools (financial means, accepted at other great schools). There are so many paths to success and enrichment. Like study abroad, a summer internship out of state...It’s great that leaving was good for you but I know lots of other people who didn’t and it was the right choice for them. I’m sure you would support your kids though if they had a compelling reason to choose a local school though. You seem like that kind of mom that would have a pro/con conversation and let them choose their path. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains

---

From a family member's experience, I agree that there are many paths and often the one that looks best may turn out to be a bad fit while others may work well. My family member started her freshman year at an out of state smallish college that looked really great for her. Several high school friends had gone there and loved it. By Thanksgiving, it was clear that it was definitely the wrong place for her. At her parents' encouragement, she stuck out the year but then dropped out and worked at a fast food place for a couple of years. When she was ready to go back, she went to a nearby large university and breezed through the rest of college and graduate school quickly. She has had a very successful academic career and is now a Dean at a top university.



Sent from my iPad using Baby Bargains

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

Urban planning isn’t much of an undergraduate degree so the idea is to have him explore in college. He really needs to leave the state for 4 years. Our localUis really the only in state school to consider and I am adamant that my kids go away. I went across the country and it was very good for me. He will be within a long days drive no matter where he goes—only looking at western states. Then if he still wants urban planning he can come back for grad school

---

I ALMOST switched my major from civil engineering to urban planning during my junior year. I'd taken a few classes that showed me how much I would like it, and my roommate was an UP major. The only reason I didn't was because I would have had to stay in school an additional year and I was ready to move on with my life. I have worked for cities for most of my career and so have a lot of contact with people with UP degrees. It's absolutely a good major. Yes, to progress in the field you need a graduate degree, but that's the case for many fields. If he takes UP undergrad, then he'd have broader options for graduate programs to hone in on where he wants to work: more UP, public administration, project management (either from an engineering standpoint or a business standpoint), environmental engineering/env studies, law, etc.

ETA many public agencies will pay for some or all of graduate degrees if it would benefit the employee in their current or future career path at that agency. He wouldn't have to have the master's to get a job, there are lots of internship opportunities with cities/, public agencies for college kids, and that helps define the career goals and what Masters to get.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

I would definitely check the requirements. If they say two years is required and three years of a foreign language is recommended, generally you should do the three years to be competitive. However, as you had mentioned, the schools he is applying to are not terribly competitive and your DS has a great GPA.

Also, given his situation with the dyslexia, I think it might be worth reaching out to them and confirming that two years is ok since it ought to meet minimum requirements.
He can also address it in the additional information section of the common app.

I just looked at Santa Clara University, Which is probably the most competitive of the ones you had mentioned.

Language Other Than English: 2 years required; 3 years recommended; 4 years preferred

Like many liberal arts colleges, they do have a foreign language requirement in their core curriculum.
My DD goes to a SLAC and she was able to place out of the core foreign language requirement via the placement test. This was after four years of taking high school Spanish. Honestly, it’s probably easier to take foreign language in high school versus college.
My DS didn’t enjoy the Spanish classes at our high school because the teachers are pretty terrible (One of them was literally fired for bad behavior- you can imagine what it takes to fire a teacher and a large public high school with a strong teachers union), but I told him he needs to take four years so he can avoid it in college. He is applying to some very selective colleges 😬 He is taking the last year of spanish Online via UC scout on demand, but he loves self driven courses because he just does it on his own time.
Regarding the UC capstone, if the main purpose is writing a research paper, hopefully he will have gained the skills elsewhere. As long as that is the case, I don’t think that would be terribly valuable.
As someone else said, the senior year classes are not weighed very heavily in the application, other than to make sure they are still challenging themselves. The first semester does count for most private colleges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PunkyBoo

I ALMOST switched my major from civil engineering to urban planning during my junior year. I'd taken a few classes that showed me how much I would like it, and my roommate was an UP major. The only reason I didn't was because I would have had to stay in school an additional year and I was ready to move on with my life. I have worked for cities for most of my career and so have a lot of contact with people with UP degrees. It's absolutely a good major. Yes, to progress in the field you need a graduate degree, but that's the case for many fields. If he takes UP undergrad, then he'd have broader options for graduate programs to hone in on where he wants to work: more UP, public administration, project management (either from an engineering standpoint or a business standpoint), environmental engineering/env studies, law, etc.

ETA many public agencies will pay for some or all of graduate degrees if it would benefit the employee in their current or future career path at that agency. He wouldn't have to have the master's to get a job, there are lots of internship opportunities with cities/, public agencies for college kids, and that helps define the career goals and what Masters to get.
Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

---

Thanks so much for this response! This is really interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StantonHyde

Thanks so much for this response! This is really interesting.

---

LMK if you or your DS have any questions about this. I'm also a west-coaster and can ask some planning friends if I'm uncertain how to answer you.
I always recommend the Occupational Outlook Handbook online for kids that think they have an idea what they want to do but aren't certain.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnuggleBuggles

I'm sure my comments made it sound like I'd just say close of the potential of some schools. But, I'm not. I'm saying that there is not enough rhyme or reason to the college selection process and trying to figure it out isn't how we chose to approach things. 3 years of language is great but only if he can be successful. What if he takes it and tanks his GPA in the process?

Ultimately though this should be mostly driven by him. What if he wants to stay in state and go to a different school than you prefer? Mine made that decision. The school he chose is a big head scratcher to me. He could have gone to a much more prestigious school and it ticked all of his boxes- overall it would have been a perfect fit (size, location, academic programs...). He chose something very different than I would have picked for him. After a bumpy first 2 weeks he went on to make a great group of friends and finished the semester with a 3.8- even took the weed out engineering calc class. It's his journey. I don't mean to sound all smug and all knowing but I wanted to share that I had to let go and let him make decisions for himself. It's easy enough to transfer if you choose poorly too. I am very happy with the tuition savings from his choice so that's a good perk. :)

---

I’m learning this lesson with a head strong sophomore. We are not far along on the college road, but she has made clear she is making her own choices in classes, sports, clubs etc. . . It’s not easy . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnuggleBuggles

How can you be so certain that going away is all that? I think living on campus absolutely matters, even if they are in the same town. But, I live in a city with amazing universities of all sizes and many kids choose those schools because they are really good. And many have parents on faculty and staff so major discounts (the choice between student loan debt or not is obviously appealing). These kids are thriving. They might move away for grad school or a job. I know many of them had the ability to go to other schools (financial means, accepted at other great schools). There are so many paths to success and enrichment. Like study abroad, a summer internship out of state...It’s great that leaving was good for you but I know lots of other people who didn’t and it was the right choice for them. I’m sure you would support your kids though if they had a compelling reason to choose a local school though. You seem like that kind of mom that would have a pro/con conversation and let them choose their path. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Baby Bargains

---

I went to college in Pennsylvania-outside of Philadelphia. If I lived there, I could TOTALLY see my kid going to a variety of schools in state, within 1-2 hours of me, etc. I live in Utah. There are a several large public Universities--only one of which is any good. There is a large private University where DS would not fit. And one SLAC--not what he wants. By SLAC, I mean 1-2K students. He wants/needs 5-10K students. He has always gone to teeny, tiny schools and that gives him the attention he needs and it totally reduces his anxiety because it is not overwhelming.

He will apply to the local, good University as a safety--with the hopes that he gets accepted into their honors program. If he had any interest at all in any healthcare field, he would be going there, no questions asked. That is a HUGE strength.

But otherwise--go, experience something different. Move!!! I would argue to my last breath that the people I have found to be most provincial are those from New York City. Seriously. It is important to go out into the world. Sure he can transfer if he hates his first year wherever he goes. But he needs to try. I know my son. He needs to be prodded to try anything new. Sometimes he hates and sometimes he likes it. And that's the key.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PunkyBoo

LMK if you or your DS have any questions about this. I'm also a west-coaster and can ask some planning friends if I'm uncertain how to answer you.
I always recommend the Occupational Outlook Handbook online for kids that think they have an idea what they want to do but aren't certain.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

---

Thanks!! I found a really good publication from some "Society of Urban Planners" type organization that lists out all of the majors that you can take that "funnel" into an Urban Planning graduate degree and it lists all of the higher ed places that offer Urban planning degrees. Very few offered it as undergrad. For undergrad, they were looking at majors like: engineering, architecture, public administration, history, etc. So all different aspects from structures to sociology to administration, etc. I thought that was interesting.

My daughter is in year 2 of Capstone. It is a LOT of work and not for the faint at heart. There is a LOT of writing and a tremendous amount of research. There are maybe 10 kids left in the 2nd year class at her school and all are at least within the top 5% of their class, including the top 10. I'm not sure she would recommend it to everyone, their class t-shirt says "AP Capstone - Sleep Is For The Weak". But she has built amazing relationships through the 2 year cohort group of kids and is much more prepared for college research than students who did not take this class. It's been a wild year doing this in the middle of a pandemic.