Jude...

[stella]

since you have brought us all this far on your non-conformist approach to child-rearing, I must insist (okay - implore you to) that you post here until Rory is 18 (if not older) so that we can all know the results of your gender-neutral approach to child-rearing.

I am totally intrigued. I don't necessarily agree with the approach - and I know you're not asking anyone to - but I am so curious now to know whether it is possible to change a child's personality/gender-strength (not a real term - just don't know the word to describe my 2 year old who innately loves perfume, makeup and jewelry)/whatever the word is from the outside in.

I happen to believe that there are some real benefits to being female. Both in the way that women (this is a gross generalization) see the world and work in the world. Of course, I love male attribues as well and I believe there is a place for both feminine and masculine characteristics, and that it is beneficial to childrearing and everything else we do. I also know that there are characteristics that get out of control - a typical stereotype is violence and sexual predation - too much male-ness. But I am southern and we way-overrelate to gender stereotypes - and I seriously digress.

I see that you consider yourself extreme - but of course, you have to be extreme to carry out the experiment - I don't mean this badly -just can't think of a better word.

I also think it will be interesting to see how much control you are able to effect as she gets older. It is as easy now as it will ever be - while you alone are responsible for all her choices in clothing. the age of three will probably be a real challenge - it certainly has been for us.

This is not intended as criticism - only as a comment that this is fascinating stuff you are doing - I will be so curious to see what happens when Riordan starts expressing preferences - which is right around the corner for you!

Please keep us posted.

claire

[ktdid74]

I find it very interesting, too! I have one child of each sex and it's amazing to me how they behave according to their gender. I have tons of boy toys and girl toys and they both play with each. However, DD loves dolls, DS loves trucks and trains. I don't feel like the way I dress them pushes them either way. DD can be a brut when playing with her brother!
I'd like to hear how it all plays out, too. Once they get a mind of their own, it gets very difficult- and not just related to clothes :)

[Judegirl]

Sure, I'd love to keep you posted! (Besides, when she turns 4 and demands ballet lessons and a pink tutu, this is the first place I'll come running...LOL!)

I do want to clarify something, though: I'm not concerned about whether she likes "girl things" or "boy things" - she can play with dolls or trucks or perfume or whatever. It's just that whether she's going to play with dolls, have tea parties, take ballet, and/or play with trucks, build webs all over the house with string, and take karate, I want her to also be assertive and powerful and confident and not passive, and sensitive and kind and warm and vulnerable and nurturing.

Unfortunately, in our culture, there's an awfully strong association between gendered play, communication, presentation, and self-image - not bad or good self-image, just masculine or feminine self-image. It's not that being a girl is bad and being a boy is better, it's just that they're BOTH limiting. I believe that they don't have to be (lots of people think the limitations are innate - I am not one of them), but right now they are. And I think that the more children learn that they're not wild because they're boys or sweet because they're girls, the better place the world may be...someday.

But yes, I will come crying to you when whe wants to be a cheerleader. Unless, of course, she also happens to be a wrestler.

:)

Jude

[lisams]

I was intrigued as well! I even did a little search to read more about Social Constructionists.

DD does not seem to favor any "gender specific" toy, she'll nurture dolls and then go and get sand all over from head to toe while the dinosaurs in her sand box roar!! If anything I have noticed she prefers natural playthings like rocks, plants, watching bugs, finding leaves. She has been intrigued with the moon since she was one. She talks about missing the moon when it isn't out. We joke that she could live outside. It's got me researching a lot about Gardner's Eight Multiple Intelligences (it used to be 7, but they added the nature smart). Basically the theory is each person has a strength in one or two areas, some areas being linguistic, math/spatial, interpersonal, bodily, etc.

As far as clothing, she is two and would love to wear shirts with bugs, dinosaurs and animals on them (once again I think this is the nature lover in her). But I just can't do it, her hair is so short and I just wouldn't handle it very well everytime someone would think she's a boy. She does have some girly shirts with ladybugs and butterflies though :-)

So yes, I'd love for you to keep us updated. Sounds very interesting!!

Lisa

[crayonblue]

Yes, keep us posted! I would love to know you in real life. I like people who march to the beat of a different drum and I think you've got that covered!

I have known one woman who tried very hard to go gender neutral. When her daughter started making her own choices, all she wanted was pink and dolls and ballet! I'm a bit curious to see if Riordan goes that direction, only because often children gravitate towards whatever is withheld.

[AngelaS]

I think your comment: " I want her to also be assertive and powerful and confident and not passive, and sensitive and kind and warm and vulnerable and nurturing. " is rather interesting.

I come from a family of four girls and am now raising three girls. My sisters and I fit all the qualities you hope for for your dd. Not a single one of us is afraid to speak our mind, defend our loved ones or cry in public.

My sisters and I were often dressed alike (in dresses!) and truly I think the clothes we were made to wear did little to shape who we truly were. I probably wore the fewest dresses of any of us growing up, yet I was the one who played dollies constantly and now have the biggest family. The one who wore lots of dresses as a child is now spends most of her time with her horses. She prefers them to people.

I think it's great that you encourage your dd to seek out the things that interest her, but I'm sad for her that she doesn't get the opportunities to wear 'girly' things and see how that feels. Some girls truly do love to have their hair done and wear pretty things. Being a woman is a wonderful thing and there's plenty of perks to being a girl...

It seems, to me, that if you go "gender neutral" most people will think "boy". If you have a boy will you dress him in pastels so that he also looks "neutral" instead of 'boy'-ish? How about when your boy wants to paint his fingernails and wear panties instead of boxers (My girlfriend's dd prefers boys briefs...)? Sorry, just my rambling thoughts..... :)

[Judegirl]

I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood here. Riordan is not going to be forbidden to wear gender-specific clothing. As soon as she's old enough to want to wear pink, we'll buy her pink...(Egads...well, once in awhile..LOL!)

My point is, dh and I don't see ourselves as "withholding" girly clothes, just as encouraging a presentation that has as little to do with gender as possible. (She's not wearing dinosaurs and cars and racer stripes, either.) So if she gravitates toward girly things (which will be novel to her), we will be neither surprised nor forbidding. (Of course, I don't see why she would, any more than a boy would, if she's not exposed to the idea that that's what girls do, but that's my constructionism showing again...*grin* If there is a biological imperative in female humans toward pink, ruffles and lace, I will confess that I was as wrong as wrong can be! ;))

Also - I have to point out - there is a much simpler and less lofty truth here in addition to all the ideology - dh and I don't like frills - on us or anyone else - so to put her in a dress, tights, ribbons, etc, when it's much easier to throw on sweats and a t-shirt just doesn't make very much sense to us. For us, we don't get it - all that extra effort to make her look pretty? She IS pretty; we don't think she's any prettier in hair bows. :) But we're kinda crunchy that way.

Okay, I've been spewing enough...if it were up to me, there'd be a "Gender Discourse" board! LOL!

(Btw - I have smilies all over this post, and my function is turned on, but lately they haven't been showing up..so in case my tone is ambigiuous...the tone is smiley!)

Jude

[janinegillot]

As you say, you may be a little extreme, but I think you're on the right track. Our culture is so ridiculously genderized taht it does bother me a lot. I started off buying mostly gender neutral clothes for my daughter (she's 2 now), but have mostly given up on it. Part of the reason is that I find toddler boy clothes to be so dreary and bland. I actually find boy clothes to be extremely limiting compared to girls' clothing. Girls can wear any color at all, but boys can't wear pink, purple, and pastel-y colors. Girls can wear all the clothes that boy can with the addition of dresses and skirts. And girls can have any animal printed on their clothes without causing a major stir. If a girl wears a truck on her shirt people would be amused or think she's an individual, but I'm sure that a boy in a pink flowery dress would offend many people (which is, of course, a shame). So I'll still buy Hanna boy clothes for my dd when they're bright and fun, but other brands I stay away from boy clothes. I also stay away from overly feminine clothes.

The only family I know that tried your experiment is my husband's. His mom tried to raise him and his sister in a gender neutral way. She gave my husband dolls along with trucks, but he had little interest in them and played in a pretty typical way with his cars. And although she wouldn't get him any violent toys like guns, he would just pretend that his other toys were guns. Being a biology major, I personally think that there are a lot of innate differences in male and female brains, but I also think those differences shouldn't be reinforced. As for my dh's younger sister, she always insisted on wearing the same kinds of clothes that my dh wore and she never had an interest in dolls or girly pursuits. She turned out to be a lesbian, but I'm sure that it was an innate part of her rather than a result of her upbringing. Sorry for the novel, but I'm very interested in this subject!
Janine

[Judegirl]

Angela, I think it's wonderful that you were raised to be all of those things. But I also think that while of course there are exceptions, it isn't the norm. Lots of people respond to girls and boys in particular ways because of how they believe girls and boys should be, act, look.

I think pastels are viewed as "girly" no matter who's wearing them. I think that green, red, dark blue, black, white, yellow, orange and earth tones are all pretty neutral. I bought much of dd's wardrobe before I knew her sex so that I wouldn't be influenced too much once she was born.

As far as adornment goes - I'm a minimalist. I prefer no fingernail paint on girls OR boys, but if my dd or ds wanted to wear it I wouldn't forbid them. I would talk to them about their reasons and what message they were trying to send, and I would talk at length to my boy about the possible consequences of his actions given our homophobic society, but unless I very much feared for his safety, I would not forbid it. (But I suspect that dh wouldn't let anyone around here wear nail polish until about age 16, so it's not going to be an issue for a long, long time. LOL)

And IMO, panties would be silly for either one of them. They're uncomfortable and they itch and no one sees them anyway so everyone should just be in plain old cotton whatevers!! Hurray for old cotton whatevers, I say! *grin*

Seriously...I hope that answers some of your questions. I appreciate your perspective and the chance to explain mine.

Best,
Jude

[Judegirl]

Janine, thanks for posting. Yes, it's very frustrating to shop for dd, and it's a shame that boys are so limited in what they can wear and still be responded to positively. I agree.

And I have to say:

" She turned out to be a lesbian, but I'm sure that it was an innate part of her rather than a result of her upbringing."

LOL - I thought this was a riot! Either way, innate or upbringing or a very, very complicated combination of things, that's another example of potential limitations. Suppose, for arguments' sake, that social factors do sometimes, somehow come into play with how sexuality is expressed. I certainly don't want to be responsible for prematurely deciding that for my daughter! I'd feel terrible if I thought I'd helped make her straight or gay by virtue of how I raised her. (Because, you see...they're both so *limiting*! *grin*)

Above all, it's my hope to keep her safe and teach her to think and provide her with opportunities at every turn. The world will tell her who/how she's supposed to be, like, sleep with, marry and hate soon enough. I want to stave that off for as long as I possibly can.

Jude