Autism, etc.

[lobsangdibbler]

I am a scientist. And I am all for the emphasis on SCIENCE placed in this book. However, I think that the arguments about vaccinations are bit simplistic. For one thing I find that Dr's are often NOT scientists - that is, they don't necessarily understand hypothesis testing, data interpretation etc. I have found that many doctors argue strongly for vaccines using logic that they think is scientific, but really isn't. It is based on the party line about public health, which is not wrong, but ignores the other consequences and potential public health issues that made be introduced by adverse responses to vaccines.

With regard to vaccines I think that the jury is still out on contributions to various developmental diseases/disorders. Clearly vaccines are of tremendous benefit for public health. However, parents should be well informed and make informed decisions. The logic in 411 sometimes treats parents as if they shouldn't ask questions or make informed decisions. There IS a huge increase in Autism. And it can't be traced back to better diagnosis, etc. These cases are severe. Sure cell phone usage is up (not actually clear that pollution, at some types is up), etc. But in making this argument, the 411 authors disregard scientific plausibility. There are possible mechanisms by which vaccines could affect a child's health. The counterexamples in the book don't have such plausibilty - well pollution might, but one would have to find out if it increased, what forms, etc. We do know there has been a great increase in the number of vaccines. Could this be linked to some developmental disorders? Perhaps. The fact is in researching this topic I have not been able to find clear cut studies that are scientifically satisfying. There is some data on both sides of the issue, but nothing definitive. When I have read arguments against this connection, I am often left wanting data of a particular form that has not been collected.

Moreover, the argument about a baby's immune system being able to handle several different vaccines simultaneous just seems plain wrong. The logic is that a baby is faced with 100,000's of germ challenges from birth onward. That is certainly true and the immune system (for the most part) handles it. BUT, that is not the same as a challenge from a vaccine in which a significant live or dead version of the vector is introduced directly into the baby's (or person's) system. Indeed, one thing we do know about the immune system is that when challenged, it can be "weakened" - that is, less able to fight off other challenges. This is the situation a baby might be placed in if given multiple vaccines in a short time frame. Again, this is not to say a baby's immune system can't handle it - it might be able to - but I haven't been able to find a clear study on this issue. But there are many studies showing a stressed immune system (e.g., from a disease) is more vulnerable.

[JWP]

I really liked the article on children with autism that was published in Time magazine about a year ago. They had evidence that there was a genetic association with autism. Since we know that autism occurs predominately among males--how could it be vaccine-related?

[alandenisefields]

Hi folks. Dr Brown asked me to post this reply to the orignal post:

Dear concerned parent:

I appreciate your comments and I am glad you have
taken the time to read Baby 411.

As a physician, I must first say that I am qualified
and trained to read and interpret scientific
literature. I took coursework in both my doctoral
degree and in my residency to learn how to do just
this.

I have spent a great deal of time reviewing the vast
amount of research that has been done on vaccine
safety and efficacy. I have tried to help explain this
information to parents in Baby 411. These explanations
are not meant to be simplistic, but written to help
parents decipher some very difficult and complex
concepts.

There is currently NO literature in a reputable,
peer-reviewed journal that shows an association
between vaccines and autism, developmental delays,
diabetes, multiple sclerosis, or any other auto-immune
disorders. What I have seen is a great deal of
'speculation' that creates anxiety and confusion for
many parents.

The concerns about the rising 'epidemic' of autism are
valid and troublesome to everyone in the medical
community. And, some experts wonder if there is an
environmental exposure that 'turns on' a person who is
predisposed genetically to autism. But, vaccines, with
or without thimerisol, do not appear to be the 'turn
on' based on a great deal of scientific data. With
respect to the thimerisol question, there was an
excellent study just published in the journal
Pediatrics last month (Vol 112, No 3, p604) that
looked at Danish children from 1991-2000 and the
incidence of autism. Thimerisol was removed from
vaccines in Denmark in 1992. Despite the removal of
the thimerisol, Denmark has seen a statistically
significant INCREASE in the rates of autism.

I will also mention that 13 states in the US seem to
have an autism epidemic, despite the fact that all 50
states have immunization programs. This also points to
a problem other than vaccines as the cause.

No doctor wants to see the rates of autism continue to
rise. We would all like to identify the cause.
Unfortunately, if parents continue to doubt the
benefits of vaccines, we will not only have an
epidemic of autism on our hands, we will also have an
epidemic of measles, pertussis, or Haemophilus menmingitis.

=====
Ari Brown, MD
Co-Author of Baby 411: Clear Answers and Smart Advice for Your Baby's First Year
Now available at all major bookstores and amazon.com.
Check it out on the web at www.baby411.com.

[Melanie]

hhmm...I wonder which 13 states there are?

There's an excellent article in a Mothering magazine this year linking autism to heavy-metal exposure and how a physician was able to help "autistic" children through a detox of these metals (sorry, my mommy-brain can't remember more...but I know it was a 2003 issue).

[lobsangdibbler]

Dr. Brown:

I appreciate your response. My honest experience with MD's is that many of them are NOT trained to interpret scientific data. But of course, the same is true of many PhD's in the sciences. My basic point is that I have found that many MD's seem to take these arguements on faith, but can't point towards solid, well-conducted studies to back their arguments (one way or the other). When queried they seem to fall back on "I am the Doctor" as an argument. Not particularly satisfying.

Even the books we have been directed to about the topic are quite short on citations/hard evidence. Again, this does not mean that your points aren't correct, but only that the medical community needs to provide layers of information for the more interested parent. Indeed I would suggest that Baby 411 include a set of such references or this information be available on the supplemental section of the Baby 411 web site.

No one doubts that viral or bacterial epidemics would be terrible. An informed parent should know these are terrible diseases. But at the same time an informed parent should be able to understand what are the possible risks of the vaccines and what are ways of possibly avoiding/minimizing said risks.

Having had personal experience with psychiatrists working with Austism, I have no doubt that there is a genuine increase in this disease in the US. Moreover, this is not a diagnosis shift - there seems to be a true increase. C.A.N. is at the forefront of attempting to understand the factors that may contribute (and BTW the comment that male dominated autism cases only suggests that genetics/body chemistry plays SOME role in determining who gets the disease) - it might be worth having some comment on that as well. Alternative theories are critical as part of arguing why a given theory is not the correct one.

Best, -m

[starrynight]

Autism is inherited in part. The argument on vaccines is that in a child that is more predisposed to the possibilty of being autistic through heredity, the mercury etc in the vaccine "brings on" the autism so to speak.

My older 2 children were all vaccinated without a second thought, I was raised that doctors know what they are doing and what they say is a good idea. Now I'm reasearching vaccines more and more before I give them to Eliza. I have decided to only give her the polio shot and the mmmr as of now. Anything else I'm delaying and possibly not giving at all, I am still doing research.

This is just my 2 cents, but does anyone think that somone that makes a living off giving vaccines and being a doctor will say what they are doing could be harmful??

And although the fda required thimerasol to be removed from vaccines, I have read some conflicting things about whether or not it was really removed 100%.

[Melanie]

Jackie, out of curiosity, why did you decide TO give her those two shots? We're also selectively vaccinating, and those 2 we decided to skip.

Just wondering what info. led you to select those two as important over the others, etc... We did HiB and DTaP.

Melanie

[mrmansmom]

About your earlier post regarding the metals: My neighbor went through that treatment with her little girl (it's called kielating -not spelled correctly, I'm sure). She was diagnosed as having an autistic spectrum disorder when she was very young- just under a year old. She's now 3 1/2 and they are trying intensive therapy as well as any other things they think may help her. Over a year ago they found that she had very high levels of certain heavy metals in her body, so they went through the process of trying to remove them. I know they reduced the concentration somewhat, but it's a really long process, I think, and I'm not sure if they stuck with it as long as it was recommended for them to do it.

There's a comprehensive list of vaccines and their manufacturers and the thimerosal content of each of the vaccines at http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

Here's an interesting link regarding the association between autism and thimerosal (or the lack of a provable association)
http://www.house.gov/weldon/issues/autism.pdf

[starrynight]

Melanie to answer your question,

We decided to do these 2 because dh is in the military, he and other people he works with often travel to areas that have these diseases and could bring them back as carriers even if they themselves are vaxed. About 4 months ago here there was an outbreak of pertussis in a few unvaxed kids due to a family member bringing it back from overseas. So because of possible exposure we are vaxing against those. She will get the DTaP and the mmr, probably the hib also. She was given a hepb shot at birth, dh okayed it without asking me since he didn't know I didn't want it. My second child was given it at 2 weeks so I didn't think I had to worry about it at birth (Eliza was born at the same hospital a year later didn't think anything had changed).

I am delaying any more hepb shots because as of now I don't feel she is at risk. Prevnar I'm not sure she will ever get and I am still undecided about the chicken pox shot. Both of those are required for school but I'm sure I can work around that in the next 4-5 years before she starts anyway :).

[Melanie]

Oh, that makes sense. Thanks for sharing. When Ds was born the nurse came in at 1 day and said "We're taking him for his shot," and I thought they meant Vitamin K and said, "Oh he already got it," then they explained it was Hep B. If I had been more rested, they'd have heard a speech from me, but instead we just said no thanks. The nurse was so puzzled, NO ONE had ever refused before? Even our ped. doesn't give it until 4 weeks. However it was in an area where I think they try to get them early b/c many people don't have medical care.

We did the HiB b/c Children have died from meningitis here, and we did the DTaP b/c there's also been Pertussis active, as well as what I read about Tetanus scared the heck out of me. Of course we could not get both of those without the Diptheria, unfortunately. I was quite frightened that weekend and watched Ds like a hawk. I'm not comfortable with combo vaccines.

I'm also undecided on Prevnar, in theory it's good, but it's too new for my comfort. Same with Chicken Pox. If he hasn't gotten the Chicken Pox by 12 or so, and they're still giving it then, we'll probably have him get it (along with HepB). As long as our risks have not changed.

Luckily, where we live they cannot require anything for school.