Will this EVER get better..

[arivecchi]

I did not pick them up. I would have picked them up if they were sick or I thought they were in distress. For the most part, they just do an angry cry. DH and I went in at the proper intervals (I think we did 15 minute increments at first, then 30, then 45, etc.).

[resipsaloquitur]

My son was by far a worse sleeper than your baby. He woke up on average of 5-8 times a night until he was 2.5 years old. I tried CIO- he just cried for hours, slept the same and woke up and cried for hours. My mother came for three weeks and tried all the old remedies. I tried every other method out there. None worked. But amazingly, about 2.5 he just started sleeping more. Now, at 7 years old, he is by far the BEST sleeper of all his friends. Unlike almost all of them, he never wakes, never asks to come in bed with me, he goes to bed easily and is very well rested. I like to think a lot of this is because I just kept trying things to get him to sleep and finally something clicked.

So my message to you is to keep trying. What works for one child might not work for another. But there is hope. If my DS can be the best sleeper in the world, it will happen for you too.

[okinawama]

Sleep problems are the pits! If you're not feeling like the CIO/Ferber method is the choice for you and your family there is also the Babywhisperer. there are a couple of books out there, which I know you're not up for reading ANOTHER sleep book, but there is this message board that I've looked at often.
http://www.babywhispererforums.com/ Maybe you'll find some helpful information and advice on there that will help you through this tough time!

[BabyBearsMom]

I did not pick them up. I would have picked them up if they were sick or I thought they were in distress. For the most part, they just do an angry cry. DH and I went in at the proper intervals (I think we did 15 minute increments at first, then 30, then 45, etc.).

Once DD is down, we don't pick her up unless I can smell poop. I feed her before we put her down, burp her, etc. so I know all of her basic needs are met. I go in the room to check on her every 15 minutes to make sure she isn't hurt or anything, but she is always fine. I know I may get flamed for saying this, but in your situation, I would really try to put my DC in a separate room from me if at all possible. We found that if DD was in the room with me, she smelled me and would wake more easily. If you do keep your DC in the room with her, you might want to look at the Sleep Lady instead of Ferber since Ferber has you leave the room after soothing which isn't possible if you sleep in the same room. The Sleep Lady has you stay in the room and sooth without picking up.

[PGTB]

My son was by far a worse sleeper than your baby. He woke up on average of 5-8 times a night until he was 2.5 years old. I tried CIO- he just cried for hours, slept the same and woke up and cried for hours. My mother came for three weeks and tried all the old remedies. I tried every other method out there. None worked. But amazingly, about 2.5 he just started sleeping more. Now, at 7 years old, he is by far the BEST sleeper of all his friends. Unlike almost all of them, he never wakes, never asks to come in bed with me, he goes to bed easily and is very well rested. I like to think a lot of this is because I just kept trying things to get him to sleep and finally something clicked.

So my message to you is to keep trying. What works for one child might not work for another. But there is hope. If my DS can be the best sleeper in the world, it will happen for you too.

Wow, I cannot imagine how you could survive 2.5 years of such sleep deprivation! I guess, this is what I was afraid to hear - that sleep issues can last for such a long time with no end in sight. We are definitely trying to do something about it now.

[elektra]

That just sucks.
If you don't want to do CIO, or if moving her out of your room is not an option, I would consider bringing your DD into bed with you. Maybe some co-sleeping parents can chime in about the logistics but from what I understand, the kids do wake up to nurse throughout the night, but both of you are still semi asleep and are able to get back to sleep much easier. I didn't start cosleeping until DD was out of the crib and it was the only way to get her to sleep, so I can't speak to the specifics of co-sleeping with a smaller baby.
If it were me, I would first try making sure my baby was napping better, and then basically do CIO. It's what I did with DD at around 15 months. She was actually a great sleeper from about 3 months to just over a year, but then we got way off track somehow. I first tried "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" and I found it to actually be the "No Sleep Cry Solution". My DD actually cried more doing that method because it was dragged out over 2 months. With CIO, she was good to go in 3 days. I read the Weissbluth book and basically followed that method- he is all about early bedtimes, protecting the nap and then doing CIO at times to get back on track.

[PGTB]

Once DD is down, we don't pick her up unless I can smell poop. I feed her before we put her down, burp her, etc. so I know all of her basic needs are met. I go in the room to check on her every 15 minutes to make sure she isn't hurt or anything, but she is always fine. I know I may get flamed for saying this, but in your situation, I would really try to put my DC in a separate room from me if at all possible. We found that if DD was in the room with me, she smelled me and would wake more easily. If you do keep your DC in the room with her, you might want to look at the Sleep Lady instead of Ferber since Ferber has you leave the room after soothing which isn't possible if you sleep in the same room. The Sleep Lady has you stay in the room and sooth without picking up.

Thanks BabyBearsMom and arivecchi and others for your support! We also realize that we have another problem at hand - reverse cycling and increased night nursings. I think at this age, he should be able to go without food for 6-7 hours without detriment to his growth. I am pretty much ready to night wean and this is what we will do first, just to rule out the waking for hunger problem. If DS stops eating at night, but still continues to wake up, we will start Ferber method to teach him to fall asleep on his own when he hits the light sleep stage. We decided to give this staged approach a try.

Last night we started night weaning. DH slept with DS in the bedroom and I slept in the living room. I nursed DS before putting him to bed at 7pm. When he woke up at 9:30 I didn't go to feed him, DH went in to offer him milk in the bottle. DS was angry and it took DH a while to feed him measly 2-3 oz. It also woke DS up for good 2 hours, he could not fall back to sleep and kept demanding mommy. DH brought him into our bed and comforted him, stroking his back, talking to him until he fell asleep. After that DS would wake up every 1.5-2 hours, DH would comfort him and offer him water. I was surprised how quickly DS would fall asleep, he didn't object as much during other wakings as I thought he would. I expected he would cry to hours wanting mommy to feed him. I guess it must be the fact that I wasn't in the room that made it easier for him to settle for sleep without nursing, he was also very tired. It was a very rough sleepless night for all of us, but we managed to not feed DS for 7 hours and when he woke up at 6am he was ready to eat! It was uncomfortable for me too, engorgement wasn't fun and I was all too glad to nurse DS as soon as possible for his morning meal.

It might take a few nights like this for DS to start eating more during the day and stop reverse cycling. I would be glad to be done with the night feedings (and especially prolonged night wakings and diaper changes) between midnight and 6am. I would feel like a queen if I could only sleep 5-6 hours straight! I am worried a bit about my supply tanking if not nursing for so many hours. I heard that once you stop night nursing you will need to supplement. I have added an extra pumping session in the morning to hope to produce enough milk, we'll see how it goes. At this point, I am ok with supplementing with formula, DS is old enough and eats other foods (like oatmeal, a bit of purees and puffs), so formula is no different than any other food. I would still continue Bfing as long as it works and not a detriment to my brain cells.

[PGTB]

That just sucks.
If you don't want to do CIO, or if moving her out of your room is not an option, I would consider bringing your DD into bed with you. Maybe some co-sleeping parents can chime in about the logistics but from what I understand, the kids do wake up to nurse throughout the night, but both of you are still semi asleep and are able to get back to sleep much easier. I didn't start cosleeping until DD was out of the crib and it was the only way to get her to sleep, so I can't speak to the specifics of co-sleeping with a smaller baby.
If it were me, I would first try making sure my baby was napping better, and then basically do CIO. It's what I did with DD at around 15 months. She was actually a great sleeper from about 3 months to just over a year, but then we got way off track somehow. I first tried "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" and I found it to actually be the "No Sleep Cry Solution". My DD actually cried more doing that method because it was dragged out over 2 months. With CIO, she was good to go in 3 days. I read the Weissbluth book and basically followed that method- he is all about early bedtimes, protecting the nap and then doing CIO at times to get back on track.

This makes sense, I read most of the Weissbluth's book, and he did influence me to start better bedtime routines for DS - especially early bedtime and understand sleep deprivation signs and put DS for naps. No matter what we try though, DS is very hard to put down for a nap and keep asleep unless he is rocked/nursed to sleep or is in the moving stroller. We tried CIO for naps without success, whatever worked for night time, didn't for the day time. I also noticed that he sleeps better at night the shorter his naps are during the day. like it's the opposite to what Weissbluth is saying - having 2 long 1.5-2 hour naps would almost guarantee a 2 hour wakeful episode at night! I haven't finished the entire book - the chapters having to do with older children over 1 year, so I don't know if there is more insight on that. I also noticed Weissbluth is more for cold turkey type of CIO vs. Ferber method, he says it's easier for a child to understand and it infuriates baby more to see the parents drop by and not pick him up. I find this cold turkey method easier too logistically and we did try it once with success. I have to say that it was faster to put DS to sleep - him only complaining for 15 min vs. about an hour with us going in to check on him. Ferber method I think is more parent-friendly to reassure the parent that the baby is ok and safer if there is a reason the baby may hurt himself if not attended for prolonged period of crying.

I think our problem is probably multitude of problems - some has to do with DS being sleep deprived, another with him relying on night time nursing sessions for nutrition and not eating during the day.

We too started co-sleeping with DS out of sheer desperation! I do enjoy having him in my bed, but not the entire night. I don't feel comfortable with him being around our pillows and comforter, DH and I both use body pillows. We often have to work hard to isolate empty space on our bed for DS to stretch without being tangled in our bedding. DS also likes to fall asleep accross the bed, taking space away from us to be comfortable. I find nursing him laying down easier at his last waking around 4-5 am when we are not quite ready to get up for the day, but DS seems ready to go. Bringing him into our bed and me nursing him laying down puts him to sleep for another 1-2 hours, we are usually just greatfull for this and we also enjoy waking up with him together to play at 6am without having to rush to get up. Otherwise, I don't really like co-sleeping and don't think it will work for us for the entire night. I tried and I find it difficult to position DS correctly for him to latch on without both of us completely waking up, me trying to crane my neck and hitting my head on the headboard, DS crying searching for the nipple. I can see how it can be a life saver if this works and if there is no risk of suffocation, perhaps with older child who has more control of his body.

[BabyBearsMom]

I didn't notice a decrease in my day time supply when we stopped night time nursing. I think it just depends on the mom. One thing to keep in mind, during the day your baby will need to eat more. If I remember correctly, you WOTH FT, right? So if you are pumping, you will probably still make the same amount that you were pumping before but the baby will need more, so you will either have to add another pumping session or supplement. We supplemented and had no problems with it. When DD stopped night feeding, she went from four 4 oz bottles while I was at work, to two 6 oz bottles and two 4 oz bottles.

[PGTB]

I didn't notice a decrease in my day time supply when we stopped night time nursing. I think it just depends on the mom. One thing to keep in mind, during the day your baby will need to eat more. If I remember correctly, you WOTH FT, right? So if you are pumping, you will probably still make the same amount that you were pumping before but the baby will need more, so you will either have to add another pumping session or supplement. We supplemented and had no problems with it. When DD stopped night feeding, she went from four 4 oz bottles while I was at work, to two 6 oz bottles and two 4 oz bottles.

That's good to know, I always wondered just how much more he would need to eat. I am a bit worried because most of his meals have been night time feedings. He has been eating between 8-12 oz during the day when I am gone, this includes milk feedings and solids - total. When he reverse cycles (feeds every 2 hours or more during the night), he eats even less during the day and I have left over milk. The excess milk would always disappear after the weekend when I would only pump once a day and nurse more.