"House GOP Wants To Use Tax Code To Curb Abortions"

[WolfpackMom]

But that doesn't mean I can't work to change the law so that abortion isn't legal in the first place. I firmly believe that we need to create a favorable "culture of life" in this country. The down-trodden, weak, and vulnerable are often marginalized, from the unborn to the homeless to those with disabilities to the elderly. We need to respect the inherent worth of ALL life, and speak up on behalf of those who are unable to do so for themselves. The legalization of abortion, in my opinion, is a symptom of the fact that our culture places little value on those who are weak, marginalized, or who can't "contribute" in some meaningful way. As a person who tries to be pro-life in all areas (Please, why can't we stick to that term? Why the need to use "anti-choice?" Should I just start calling the pro-choice crowd "anti-life?"), I'm committed to respecting the inherent worth of every single person. So to me, being pro-life not only means that I'm against abortion, but that I'm also against the death penalty and euthanasia, and that I advocate for rights of immigrants (legal or illegal), the homeless, etc. Please, don't stereotype and assume that those of us who are pro-life don't care about the needs of unwed mothers and just want to hamper women's ability to exercise their freedom of choice. When the exercising of that freedom infringes on the rights of someone else, I feel obligated to speak up on their behalf.

I think its great for people to stand up for they believe in. And its ok too for people to disagree. The BBB is awesome because we can all do our best to keep it civil like your post above. I appreciate hearing the perspective of the other side. I have to think about my perspective in relation to what you say...

I think as a PP said, there is mix ups between what people classify as a "life." Im sure I have my definition and you have yours. In all likelihood our definitions aren't very different because I dont *think* abortion is something I would choose for myself unless there were severe circumstances. As an example, I was raped when I was barely 18 - like a month past my 17th birthday, first month of college. I cannot imagine what I would done if I had become pregnant as a result. I havent had to walk in those shoes so I can't say. I think what weighs in the back of mind in all of this is what about the rape victim, the mom who if she keeps a pregnancy will die, the fetus that isnt going to survive through birth, the child who is a victim of incest; all of those cases that aren't lumped into that "unplanned/unwanted/inconvenient" category that people like to use. Do they not count for anything? What services are being offered in those situations? Sure people can say get therapy do this do that to help these people, but sorry not everyone has the money for that and there most certainly aren't enough nonprofits in the world to provide free care for everyone. The mom that dies as a result of carrying a pregnancy, oh well its fine she died because the baby has a 10% chance of making it? The unborn are more important than the living? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some people would argue that in some cases they are and in others they are not.

I remember a couple years ago there was an 11 year old girl here who was raped by her Uncle when she was 10 and gave birth at 11. I heard about it on the radio and cried the whole way home. Is her life, her future, her mental capacity at 11 to handle a baby that is a result of rape by a family member, meaningless? That right there is an "innocent human being's life" being destroyed by a violent sexual act. Its not so simple as that little girl giving the baby up for adoption, the ramifications on her life go beyond keeping the baby or giving it up. There are just so many factors to be considered.

Anyways, I appreciate everyone being so civil.
Back on topic....no I dont think this thing is going to make too much of a difference. If someone really wants or needs an abortion in all likelihood they will still get one (and I think they should be able to).

[gatorsmom]

But that doesn't mean I can't work to change the law so that abortion isn't legal in the first place. I firmly believe that we need to create a favorable "culture of life" in this country. The down-trodden, weak, and vulnerable are often marginalized, from the unborn to the homeless to those with disabilities to the elderly. We need to respect the inherent worth of ALL life, and speak up on behalf of those who are unable to do so for themselves. The legalization of abortion, in my opinion, is a symptom of the fact that our culture places little value on those who are weak, marginalized, or who can't "contribute" in some meaningful way. As a person who tries to be pro-life in all areas (Please, why can't we stick to that term? Why the need to use "anti-choice?" Should I just start calling the pro-choice crowd "anti-life?"), So to me, being pro-life not only means that I'm against abortion, but that I'm also against the death penalty and euthanasia, and that I advocate for rights of immigrants (legal or illegal), the homeless, etc. Please, don't stereotype and assume that those of us who are pro-life don't care about the needs of unwed mothers and just want to hamper women's ability to exercise their freedom of choice. When the exercising of that freedom infringes on the rights of someone else, I feel obligated to speak up on their behalf.

Thank you for saying this so well. I meant to say this yesterday but the words didn't come out as well, particularly the bolded part. The Prolifers I know would probably be appalled that they were being stereotyped in this way. We work hard, and quietly to support those moms. And despite our efforts being discredited as a waste of time, we will continue to do so.

[crayonblue]

Thank you for saying this so well. I meant to say this yesterday but the words didn't come out as well, particularly the bolded part. The Prolifers I know would probably be appalled that they were being stereotyped in this way. We work hard, and quietly to support those moms. And despite our efforts being discredited as a waste of time, we will continue to do so.

Lisa- nothing you do to help someone is a waste of time. I love this quote: Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone.

[Green_Tea]

I'm completely pro-life, but I agree with much of what you said here. The gov't trying to claim that the money in HSA accounts should not be used to fund abortions because that money, if not used, would otherwise be taxable (I hope I'm understanding that correctly), is making a pretty big stretch. And yes, passing such a bill would open Pandora's Box in the sense that it would open the door to gov't determining if people could use their OWN money to pay for the things you listed. Should taxpayer money be used to pay for those things? Not in my book! But since they are legal, then people have the right to pay for them if they so choose.

But that doesn't mean I can't work to change the law so that abortion isn't legal in the first place. I firmly believe that we need to create a favorable "culture of life" in this country. The down-trodden, weak, and vulnerable are often marginalized, from the unborn to the homeless to those with disabilities to the elderly. We need to respect the inherent worth of ALL life, and speak up on behalf of those who are unable to do so for themselves. The legalization of abortion, in my opinion, is a symptom of the fact that our culture places little value on those who are weak, marginalized, or who can't "contribute" in some meaningful way. As a person who tries to be pro-life in all areas (Please, why can't we stick to that term? Why the need to use "anti-choice?" Should I just start calling the pro-choice crowd "anti-life?"), I'm committed to respecting the inherent worth of every single person. So to me, being pro-life not only means that I'm against abortion, but that I'm also against the death penalty and euthanasia, and that I advocate for rights of immigrants (legal or illegal), the homeless, etc. Please, don't stereotype and assume that those of us who are pro-life don't care about the needs of unwed mothers and just want to hamper women's ability to exercise their freedom of choice. When the exercising of that freedom infringes on the rights of someone else, I feel obligated to speak up on their behalf.

I don't think I did that in my post (which is what your post was in response to) but if I did, I apologize.

And, though I am pro-choice, I support 100% your right to fight to change the law. I think that if it doesn't jive with your values you SHOULD fight it. What I have a big issue with (and I am not directing this at you, tribe pride, but at the movement as a whole) is the way that the fight is continually aimed at weakening abortion laws in a way that that sets dangerous precedents and weakens other rights. Just as I believe that denying same sex couples the right to marry jeopardizes the civil rights of ALL currently and previously marginalized groups, I believe that restricting HSA money for abortions - which are legal - jeopardizes everyone's rights to use those funds in other ways that some groups might find ethically questionable.

[gatorsmom]

I think as a PP said, there is mix ups between what people classify as a "life." Im sure I have my definition and you have yours. In all likelihood our definitions aren't very different because I dont *think* abortion is something I would choose for myself unless there were severe circumstances. As an example, I was raped when I was barely 18 - like a month past my 17th birthday, first month of college. I cannot imagine what I would done if I had become pregnant as a result. I havent had to walk in those shoes so I can't say. I think what weighs in the back of mind in all of this is what about the rape victim, the mom who if she keeps a pregnancy will die, the fetus that isnt going to survive through birth, the child who is a victim of incest; all of those cases that aren't lumped into that "unplanned/unwanted/inconvenient" category that people like to use. Do they not count for anything? What services are being offered in those situations? Sure people can say get therapy do this do that to help these people, but sorry not everyone has the money for that and there most certainly aren't enough nonprofits in the world to provide free care for everyone. The mom that dies as a result of carrying a pregnancy, oh well its fine she died because the baby has a 10% chance of making it? The unborn are more important than the living? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe some people would argue that in some cases they are and in others they are not.

I remember a couple years ago there was an 11 year old girl here who was raped by her Uncle when she was 10 and gave birth at 11. I heard about it on the radio and cried the whole way home. Is her life, her future, her mental capacity at 11 to handle a baby that is a result of rape by a family member, meaningless? That right there is an "innocent human being's life" being destroyed by a violent sexual act. Its not so simple as that little girl giving the baby up for adoption, the ramifications on her life go beyond keeping the baby or giving it up. There are just so many factors to be considered.

I completely agree that there is a very grey area here. As a prolifer, I can't deny that there are situations where you have to ask yourself what is best?

But I keep coming back to my very strong belief that a baby, at any stage, is a human being like anyone else. He is simply a vulnerable human who cannot talk for himself or provide for himself or defend himself and his right to live. It seems simple to me that that right should be provided for all humans, not just the ones who can speak up for their rights, not just the ones who can pay for an expensive defense attorney to talk for them, not just for those who have family to help them. EVERYONE- and I"m not just talking the unborn here- should have society recognizing their right to live. An 11 year old girl who is raped and becomes pregnant as a result deserves every protection and help there is for that terrible, disgusting crime. But is the baby she's carrying guilty in any way? Why should the baby die as a result of some else's crime or misfortune? And honestly, who can be 100% sure that aborting the baby is the best thing for the girl? Could that girl feel even more victimized if 10 years later she realizes that she was encouraged to abort that baby? If I kill an innocent human, I would want to be damn sure it's because it is the best thing to do. Honestly, not even that girl can know that at the time.

And frankly, for those people that argue that we have to have abortion because our system is flawed and there is not enough programs and resources to provide for people who find themselves with a pregnancy they can't support or were forced with, I would point to the flawed abortion clinic regulators. Can we really be sure there aren't more doctors like the one in Pennsylvania who came to light last fall? Can we be sure that the system is monitoring those clinics to make sure they are following procedures and that the rights of women and babies are being protected? I think it's pretty clear that the same system that can't provide services to help pregnant moms is the same system that can't assure those pregnant moms that the abortion clinics won't victimize them. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_810976.html Here's the link for anyone who has forgotten.

ETA: For those of you complaining that your tax dollars are being wasted to create this HSA rule, please notice in the link I provided how our tax dollars were being used to pay for private counsel for the Health Department officials who failed to inspect this clinic and were testifying at the abortion doctor's murder trial.

[WolfpackMom]

And frankly, for those people that argue that we have to have abortion because our system is flawed and there is not enough programs and resources to provide for people who find themselves with a pregnancy they can't support or were forced with, I would point to the flawed abortion clinic regulators.

I see what you're saying, but do want to point out that this is not what I was saying. I was merely stating a fact that there are not enough programs and resources, not saying that that that this a reason to go have an abortion.

[gatorsmom]

I see what you're saying, but do want to point out that this is not what I was saying. I was merely stating a fact that there are not enough programs and resources, not saying that that that this a reason to go have an abortion.

No, I know you weren't saying it. But I feel like this reason was alluded to earlier in the discussion.

I completely agree that there are not enough programs or resources. I think we should all be working harder to get them passed. But I know how slowly everything in the government works and so we, each of us individually, should do anything we can now, in the meantime, to help those in need.

[WolfpackMom]

No, I know you weren't saying it. But I feel like this reason was alluded to earlier in the discussion.

I completely agree that there are not enough programs or resources. I think we should all be working harder to get them passed. But I know how slowly everything in the government works and so we, each of us individually, should do anything we can now, in the meantime, to help those in need.

Of course, no matter what "side" one is on, everyone should do what they can to help those in need, we can all agree on that!

[gatorsmom]

Of course, no matter what "side" one is on, everyone should do what they can to help those in need, we can all agree on that!

Just don't let this attitude discourage you:

Charity is not enough, period. For all the charitable efforts to ease the suffering of low income mothers and families it is not going to solve the problem. We need major systemic structural changes to our economic system, as well as ample resources for pregnancy prevention, to make abortion unnecessary. And a host of other things I won't bother to enumerate. And all that is not going to happen entirely in the non-profit sector or church world.

[WolfpackMom]

Just don't let this attitude discourage you:

Well let me stand up for her a little. That statement doesn't discourage me because I agree with her and can still take away that even though I cant fix everything I can make a small difference for a few people. Its not enough, she is not saying it doesnt help or doesnt make a difference - just that its not enough. And anyone who thinks they are solving an epidemic by one group's effort is fooling them self (I know you arent saying that, just a general statement). Volunteer and nonprofit services are strapped thin, especially these days. Absolutely we should do all we can, but no, it wont solve everything and I know you aren't saying that it will. But I dont think is kijip is saying not to go do anything or that small things cant make big differences, just that volunteer efforts arent going to solve it all on their own and it will take government reform to help with the big picture. She wasn't bashing individual's efforts, just saying that those efforts aren't enough.