Gifted screening...again (plus ADD)

[SnuggleBuggles]

Third time going through this with ds1. He didn't make the cut off on the KBIT back in 2nd grade. In 4th grade he made the KBIT (scored 129) cut off but the 3 hour Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (or Kaufman Test for Educational Achievement? I am not sure if one or both was used) showed an IQ of only 123. Back in 4th grade, his math IQ was 145. That is the main reason we are pushing again to get him qualified...he slips through the cracks b/c nothing is making sure they give him the extra support and enrichment he should have (imo). So, he scored a 130 on the KBIT this year and is due to have the 3 hour individual assesment again soon.

So, I'm driving myself crazy thinking that maybe I should be looking for different testing options if he doesn't make it again this time. I could also accept that he just isn't gifted. He only just realized how much he was missing out on by not being in the group and he has noticed that all of his friends are in it. Since I just missed the cut off and my parents didn't push, I know exactly how he feels. I have every desire to advocate for him at least a bit more before accepting that he is bright and gifted in math.

He's a straight A student and always gets advanced on the yearly standradized test in math, usually in reading too. He also has an ADD diagnosis. It's the ADD dx that makes me think about looking for other test options. I think some kids do better on some assessments than others.

The gifted coordinator said that if ds1 doesn't make their cut off that we should keep persuing it since he is so close and the math is so high.

Main questions- what tests should I look for? She said something about one that sounded like WISK (I know it has a real name). Should I seek out a psychologist that might be good at administering an IQ test to a kid with ADD? If so, how?

Of course, he could make it this time around. I just want to have my ducks in a row in case he doesn't.

[vludmilla]

The WISC-IV is an abbreviation for the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (4th Edition). It is a more common IQ test than the KBIT which is a brief intelligence test. It sounds like he was also tested with the KABC which is an IQ test that is comparable to the WISC. It seems plausible that your son's lower score (123 on the KABC vs. 129 on the KBIT) is a function of the the additional subtests on the full test. Usually an abbreviated intelligence test like the KBIT is just 4 subtests whereas a full intelligence test is about 10 or so subtests long. The more subtests you administer, the greater the chance for lower scores to occur. It may also be that the full intelligence test (the KABC) tapped areas that are weaker for your son (this is just an inference based on the little bit of information that you presented, it may not be true, of course). Many, but not all, individuals with an ADHD diagnosis will struggle with the working memory subtests on a full intelligence test. If that was the case for your son, that could account for the discrepancy in the scores.
In your case, I think I would consider talking to someone about the meaningfulness of the cut off scores. Statistically, there is not a big difference between obtaining a 123 or a 129, the two scores are within the 95% confidence interval. My point is that IQ scores, while usually considered stable by middle childhood, are not static to the exact number. So a person who says that their IQ score is 130 won't necessarily get a 130 if you retest them yearly. The score they obtain will vary (within the confidence interval) such that the score they get one year will be a 130, the next year a 125 and the year after that maybe a 132. Their IQ is not really going up or down, per se, it is just not an exact science and there are many factors that go into the obtained scores. I think I would try to get someone to discuss rationally, whether or not your son would benefit from the gifted program, and not focus on statistically insignificant differences in IQ scores.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I think that there were 5-6 categories on the KABC2 that he tested on in May 2012. He did the worst on the categories like short term memory and other ones that sounded like they would be weaknesses of a kid with ADD. I guess it doesn't seem like a "fair" measurement of giftedness.

Sorry for the sparse details. I'd put them out of my mind since shortly after the tests and it's now coming back to me. They provided a decent summary of the last results from 1.5 years ago that I can refer to.

[vludmilla]

There were 5-6 categories on the KABC but that represents many more subtests (perhaps as many as 18) so the KABC is a much longer test than the KBIT. If he has a weakness in short term memory, the KBIT didn't measure that and so his score on the KBIT would be higher. The KBIT is only looking at reasoning whereas the KABC measures reasoning but also cognitive processes (like short term memory, working memory, simultaneous processing, and planning ability) and all of these can be lower in people who have ADHD. I don't know if just retesting him with a WISC or a WJ-III will make a difference as those tests will also have many of those components but you could certainly try. Any licensed educational or clinical psychologist could do the testing. Anyway, I really hope that the evaluators/decision makers don't get bogged down looking at number cutoffs and use a more holistic approach to evaluating your son's appropriateness for gifted services. Good luck!

[SnuggleBuggles]

There were 5-6 categories on the KABC but that represents many more subtests (perhaps as many as 18) so the KABC is a much longer test than the KBIT. If he has a weakness in short term memory, the KBIT didn't measure that and so his score on the KBIT would be higher. The KBIT is only looking at reasoning whereas the KABC measures reasoning but also cognitive processes (like short term memory, working memory, simultaneous processing, and planning ability) and all of these can be lower in people who have ADHD. I don't know if just retesting him with a WISC or a WJ-III will make a difference as those tests will also have many of those components but you could certainly try. Any licensed educational or clinical psychologist could do the testing. Anyway, I really hope that the evaluators/decision makers don't get bogged down looking at number cutoffs and use a more holistic approach to evaluating your son's appropriateness for gifted services. Good luck!

Thank you.

With the prevalence of ADD, it seems like they would take into account that short term memory and such could have skewed results on tests like this.

They said they are in the process of rewriting the criteria to be more holistic- a "portfolio approach". In that case, I think he will qualify. The gifted coordinator wasn't happy with current policies but she is tied to them for now- that means #s only.

He attends a charter school. From our reading, if he qualifies for our home school district's gifted program then the charter school is required to accept him into theirs. She thought we should do that too as they might take a more holistic approach.

[Gena]

We don't have any first hand experience with gifted testing, but I do know that in my state there is a list published by the Dept of Education of what tests are accepted and what scores are needed to qualify.

We do have experience with IQ testing, since the IEP team strongly insisted on it for DS's most recent triennial evaluation. I was able to put it off for about 5 years, then finally we were at a point where I felt that IQ testing would give some good information.

We knew that testing would be a challenge. Traditional IQ tests are language based and DS has language processing difficulties due to his autism. Non-verbal IQ tests are visually based and DS has mild visual impairments. They don't really make tests for kids like my DS. I agreed to have testing done only if our private psychologist did the testing. She's the head of the psychology department at the Children's Hospital and she has worked with DS since he was 3; she was part of his diagnostic team. I was not going to trust a school psychologist who DS does not know to administer an IQ test, although I did allow her to conduct his achievement testing.

Our psychologist took all of DS's issues into account when administering his test. She gave him positive rewards (train stickers) for completing each subsection and cooperating. She gave him breaks between subsections. She made sure the room was free of glare and accommodated his sensory needs. She let him be physically active (pace) while verbally answering questions.

DS had the WISC-IV (which PP mentioned above) as well as the Leiter Nonverbal IQ Test. Both test gave us some good information. DS's subtest scatter was huge, which makes his Full Scale IQ Score unreliable, but we got a really good snapshot of where he does well and where he struggles.

So yes, in your situation I would look for someone who is experienced in administering the test to kids with ADHD. And make sure you have a thorough understanding of all the subtest score. I know it's tempting to just look at the overall composite score, especially since you want the test to qualify for the gifted program. But the subtest scores can give you a lot of information that can impact his schooling.

[egoldber]

What exactly are the criteria for admission to the program? Is it a strict nukber cut off? Is the cutoff different for different tests? I find it odd that there is no qualitative assessment that can be done in complement to the other testing.

Older DD had the WISC IV when she was in second grade as part of her neuropsych evaluation. You can get just the WISC IV here for about $350-$400. It's probably a little less where you are.

I would absolutely find a tester experienced with kids with ADHD-Inattentive type. This is a little less common in boys, so you may need to search a little bit. Some kids absolutely test better than others.

And when people talk about gifted programs having no value, I always point to the upper grades. Like it or not, better or worse, these programs are often (official or unofficial) gatekeepers to programs that students could benefit from in upper elementary and middle school.

You may find this helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsle...e_for_Children

ETA: Older DD's subtest scores were also very different. This is no uncommon, especially for kids with any type of learning or other issue (ADHD, etc.). Her FSIQ was brought down considerably by her processing speed and working memory subcomponents.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Well, we never pursued outside testing b/c we wanted to see how he fared on the school one. It took them forever to get the testing done this year (December-April). They tested him last Mon. and Tues. and, while she didn't have the full report from the psychologist, his scores qualified him for the gifted program. They plan to get things going ASAP especially with math. I wish this had all fallen into place sooner but I'm glad it's done. He is in advanced math this year and it has been meeting his needs so I haven't really been too worried. It was a bigger deal in previous years. I've also heard the gifted program was pretty lackluster (I don't think too highly of the person in charge, that's for sure- my opinion seems to be the majority). We are hopeful that the gifted label is permanent b/c it will be very helpful in high school- so many great programs only those kids get to participate in.

[sste]

Great news!! Congratulations!! Is this going to be his first year in the program? I recall your struggles from previous years and thought for some reason he got in one other year but maybe it was the year he made it on one test and not the other. Anyway, I am glad he will benefit from those extra resources and opportunities.

[SnuggleBuggles]

He will be starting next week. He got a really high math score (IQ) in the past but not enough in the rest. This was our 3rd time doing the testing. We did stress to him that short term memory was his downfall in the past and to really pay attention. Normally I wouldn't hype a test but I knew he could for it if he understood. I think age also helped.