Any experience with ED classrooms? Update in #16

[Gena]

Update in post #16
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DS is in the 5th grade at a K-5 elementary school. We are in the process of gathering information on possible placements for next year. DH and I are visiting various classrooms, but haven't yet found one that is a good match for DS.

The special education coordinator has started to push us towards the "Mental Health/ Emotional Disturbance" classroom. She believes this class has both the structure and the academic level DS needs.

We have not observed this classroom yet. DH and I agreed to keep an open mind about it, but we have concerns about whether an ED classroom is appropriate for a student with autism. I don't know much about ED, so I don't know if the techniques and accommodations used in ED classrooms also work with autistic kids.

Obviously we have a lot of questions for the school staff on this. But I would appreciate if anyone has experience with or insight about ED classrooms. Or if anyone is aware of any studies about autistic students in ED classrooms, that would be great. I've looked, but I haven't found anything.

[StantonHyde]

Gena:

I could see how it might work to have a child with autism in an ED classroom. Where I work, we have a day treatment program for kids and teens with mental health issues. We have a fair number of kids with autism in our program--they often have a dual diagnosis or some behavior quirk that is making regular school not work for them. It's a short term program--2-4 weeks. But I know that a number of kids leave our program and go to an ED classroom. I think some of the techniques are helpful--clear communication, clear expectations, small number of students, trying to keep the stimulation level lower, willingness to let quirks slide or work with them, using behavior modification techniques or sticker charts etc. And if your DS ever acts out physically, they are much better equipped for that--some of the classrooms have a time out room inside the classroom. I honestly do not know nearly as much about autism and treating kids with autism in the school setting as I do about ED. So I may be completely off in my opinion/assumption.

I would want to know about the behavior management techniques used in the classroom. How many other kids who are on the spectrum are in the classroom? Some of the ED kids can have outbursts, some violently so, and if your son is small and tends to be a target that could be an issue--I would want to know what the "admit/exclusion" criteria is--who gets in and who is not allowed in because they are too "acute". How many years of experience do the teachers have? What special training or certification do they have?

Do you have a local support group for parents of kids on the spectrum? What has their experience been?

[egoldber]

I would definitely observe.

My older DD has ED as her primary disability category for her IEP. She has regular academic classes though, and just goes to the ED resource teacher one hour a day. She also has a team taught class class for one academic subject. Her middle school is very large though, 1000 students, and is an ED center. So they have a few ED classrooms and teachers. They also have several ED resource classes, each is geared toward a specific set of kids and their needs. One thing her therapist said is often a problem is that if they school doesn't have enough kids to break the kids into small enough groups, then the ED resource rooms can be very chaotic and not helpful. But her ED resource class has been great for her. It's made a world of difference in her year.

[niccig]

I think this will come down to the individual teacher and their experience teaching a class consisting of children who are on the spectrum and children with emotional disturbances. I would want to observe the class a couple of times at different times in the day.

I'll send you a PM.

[Pepper]

HI Gena,

My DS1 is in 3rd grade and has been in a classroom like this since kindergarten. (They call it Individual Management in our school but I think it's the same as an ED classroom). He's PDD-NOS/ADHD, and at least one other kid in the class is on the spectrum - the mom told me he's been diagnosed as Asperger's. Our school system does have an Autism classroom at another school so I'm not sure why the other child ended up in IM instead. But it does seem to be a good fit for my DS and the other kids in the class.

The class size is small (there's been as few as three students, most was eight in a combined kindy/1st grade classroom) with a teach and an aide. There's also a support person/teacher who, if a child gets too ramped up or disruptive, the support person can take them for a walk around the building so the child can calm down. Or sometimes they go to the person's office and calm down there. There is a lot of structure in the classroom and postivie behaviroal systems in place (the kids earn up to 3 "points," one each for respect, safety, and something else) for each segment of their day. Since the class size is small the teacher can do differentiated instruction.

Overall my DS does very well at school in this highly structured and supportive environment. One thing that is a challenge is that, because of the high needs of the kids themselves, the kids tend to come and go - sometimes kids are moved out of hte classroom, or back into it, or are out because they need to be hosptialized or placed in treatment centers for a while. It's very challenging for the kids individually and as a group, because that means the group dynamics are, well, dynamic. I don't think there's anything anyone could do about it, and for me it's not a reason to move my son to a different classroom. But if your DS is very sensitive to that kind of change you might want to ask how much fluidity there is in the class during the year.

HTH

[JustMe]

I have also worked (not as a teacher) in a day treatment center that had teens with ED and autism. It worked really well there, but everyone had their individual plan and we really did follow them..so no one size fits all. I believe the ED/Autism combo is pretty common in the day treatment world. I agree with pps that you want to observe, ask questions about behavior management, ask about experience with kids on the spectrum and specifically discuss your concerns about your ds and ask about how they would be addressed.

[annex]

Our BCBA for my son's home ABA program basically told us she would never, ever, allow DS to be placed in our district's ED classroom, after observing it for another client. This was elementary level though, and another parent I know with a ASD son recommended for that classroom observed once, saw some scary seclusion/restraint room, and then promptly transferred out of the district to avoid getting placed there. I'm not sure exactly what they saw, but I do think I would ask a lot of questions, do a lot of observations, etc. Plus you never know how much the class will change - there could be some ED children being placed there after you observe, who your child would not compatible with, but would then be spending the next 3 years with.

Sorry this is stressful for you. Do you have a SEPAC? If you can find enough parents of ASD 5th graders with the same concerns, it seems like you would have the ability to pressure the district into hiring a ASD teacher for a middle school room. Does your son's IEP say he needs an ASD-certified teacher? Can you hire an advocate to help you get that written into the IEP?

[sste]

Gena, I have no experience with ED classrooms in particular but during and briefly after college I worked at residential treatment centers for kids with ED - - these were kids that were often taken out of ED classrooms for short periods of treatment and then returned to ED classrooms. So my experience was with higher acuity.

I am being frank here that I would be concerned about safety and violence in particular at the middle school level. Surging hormones plus an ED do not mix well IMHO!! Obviously not all EDs involve physical acting out and safety concerns but for those kids to be placed in a separate room I would suspect that that is because they 1) could not safely be in a "regular" classroom in terms of both their safety and the safety of their peers; and/or 2) were too disruptive to learning in a non-contained classroom. So I would be looking for and asking questions about safety, can they tell you the number of incident reports filled out, what are the scripted plans of action when there is a physical incident, safety issue etc -- the safety plan or it can go by other names, and also are the amount of behavioral disruptions going to interfere with your DS learning.

From what you have described in the past, your DS has problems with lots of stimuli, IIRC?? My experience working with kids with ED is that it was sort of all stimuli, kids with the kind of EDs that lead to their placement in ED classrooms often (outside of depression) just radiate energy, response, emotion, I found it overwhelming!

[Gena]

Thank you for all the replies. I appreciate the insight and experience everyone has shared. Autism support groups (both online and our local groups) generally advise against placing students with autism in ED classrooms, but no one seems to be able to tell me exactly why.

I should clarify that we do plan to observe the ED classroom (preferably multiple times), we haven't yet due to scheduling issues.

When I asked the special ed coordinator about the students in the classroom, she described them as "mostly non-violent, some with anxiety, some with depression, some are really quirky and don't fit anywhere else." She did say there are "occasional" incidents of physical outbursts, but could not specify how frequent "occasional" means or how serious these outbursts might be. The teachers for this program do not have training specific to autism, which obviously concerns us.

The students in this program get counseling/therapy one to two times a week, both individual and group. The coordinator said the it's done by a licensed therapist from a local hospital, but could not tell me if the therapist is trained or experienced in working with autistic children/adolescents.

Here's one of our concerns (with some background):

DS has been placed in autism classrooms since kindergarten, with the exception of the school's disastrous attempts to mainstream him. These classrooms follow the TEACCH methodology. One of the important aspects of TEACCH is that it honors the "culture of autism". This means the it recognizes both the strengths and the challenges of the autistic students, uses the strengths to build up the weaknesses, and works to develop functional skills. TEACCH recognizes that autism is a lifelong condition and is not an attempt to "normalize" the individual (this is a contrast to ABA, which has the goal of normalizing behavior). This focus on developing functional skills instead of "normal" behavior is very important to our family and is a big part of how DH and I work with DS.

None of the teachers in the middle school are trained in the TEACCH methodology. The special ed coordinator said that a few of the teachers know and use some features of TEACCH, but the things she talked about were more superficial (like how to set up a workstation) and do not show an understanding of the underlying philosophy.

I do not know what the basic philosophy is when working with students with ED. I may be completely off-base, but I would imagine that a common approach is an attempt to "cure" them. I'm worried about putting DS in an environment where there is an underlying emphasis on "cure" , because DH and I feel that "cure" is not an appropriate goal for DS. DH and I work hard to help DS understand his autism, and to understand that autism is part of what makes him the wonderful, unique person he is. An ED classroom might have all the right supports and accommodations, but if the underlying focus is on "cure" rather than acceptance, that might do DS more harm in the long run.

Again, I may be totally off-base with that worry. I really don't know that the therapy/intervention goals are when working with students with ED.

[egoldber]

I think part of what makes this issue so complex is that ED can mean a lot of different things. It can range from children who are violent/bipolar/ant-social to kids with severe anxiety. I was very resistant to the ED categorization of DD initially, but for her and in our school, it works. However she is not in a full time ED classroom. In her resource class, there are 5 total children, mostly with diagnoses like anxiety and depression. The teacher works with the kids on specific skill deficits (including social skills) and coping skills. My DD gets some pragmatic speech therapy in that time as well. I assume other children also get some types of therapy in that time as well.

she described them as "mostly non-violent, some with anxiety, some with depression, some are really quirky and don't fit anywhere else." She did say there are "occasional" incidents of physical outbursts, but could not specify how frequent "occasional" means or how serious these outbursts might be. The teachers for this program do not have training specific to autism, which obviously concerns us.

This would describe my DD and the kids in the ED classroom as well. They have fairly frequent emotional outbursts. DD has never been violent to others, but she has hit herself when she has gotten angry or upset. This has actually happened a lot LESS since she started the ED class because she has that class during the day to de-compress and center herself. It's like a built in hour a day of cool down time from the stress of the rest of her day.

The students in this program get counseling/therapy one to two times a week, both individual and group. The coordinator said the it's done by a licensed therapist from a local hospital, but could not tell me if the therapist is trained or experienced in working with autistic children/adolescents.

Since they are bringing in outside therapists anyway, I would request that his IEP include therapy from someone trained in working with autistic adolescents.

Where are the other children in his current class going next year?