My Son lies.....

[Percycat]

I am heartbroken and don't know what to do. [this post is hard to write because there are so many intertwined problems].

I have a super sweet, sensitive, loving boy 13 year old boy -- who lies.

For years, we have been struggling with responsibility and follow-through. He will tell us he did something, when he didn't. If he didn't do something, he will tell us he forgot or didn't know he had to do it. This happens with all types of things -- did you brush your teeth? do you have homework? did you clean your room? are you watching videos/playing a game on your computer..... When he lies or breaks rules about the use of technology, we typically take the item away for a period of time and he has to earn it back. Sometimes, he 'steals' it back without our knowledge and we find him using it when he does not have permission and has not done the things he needs to do. When asked a question, he will look downcast and mumble 'i forgot' and then a minute later (or unreasonably soon after our discussion of consequences) he will come up to me with a smile on his face and say 'hug?' and give me a hug..... and I am conflicted because I want to hug him, and yet I am so frustrated and disappointed and angry at him.

Recently, the "do you have homework?" has been a huge issue. He will tell me, my mom (whom he adores and sees every day after school) my husband -- everyone involved in his life -- that he doesn't have homework, when in fact he does. He is missing assignments and turning things in late because he will not do the assignments. Often these assignments are large assignments, but not necessarily. His grades are often 100 or docked because it is late or missing; as a result he is not getting the grades he should be able to achieve. We have given him planners and have asked the school for help, and the standard answer many teachers give us is that his "executive function" has not matured --- which is extremely frustrating to hear.... but this is another issue [my son is exceptionally gifted and the school has accelerated his education; he is generally in classes with kids at least a year older than him and goes to high school for math -- this wasn't a problem in grade school because of the self contained school environment, but maturity appears to be a huge problem now.]

One of the classes he is not doing as well as he should is English. Because of late or missing assignments, he has a C. One evening, he told us he could not do English homework because he was tired and needed to go to bed (early at 8:00). When my husband checked on him before going to bed himself, he found DS watching videos on his phone (which was supposed to be charging in the Kitchen). We took the phone away and told him he could not have it back until his English grade was at least a B.

We learned on Monday this week that he had a huge writing assignment/presentation due Tuesday (but was extended to Wednesday). We asked him on Monday what he planned to do, and he said he had it all figured out in his head. After lengthy discussion, he finally showed me the assignment and the grading rubric. The class is expected to do an argument presentation identifying the best mode of communication in the future in light of a technology scale. The students are to use the type of technology that best supports the argument.

HERE IS THE LIE THAT IS REALLY HURTING: He said he planned on arguing that communication by phone (talk, text, video, instant) would be the best form in the future. When I asked to see what he had prepared, he 'admitted' he hadn't written anything. He finally decided he needed to have slides he would display via his phone. I told him he had to write a detailed out line for the presentation and have a list of slides he planned to create before he went to bed. -- He worked for 3 hours and did this. I also contacted his case manager at the school to see if she could meet with him after school to help make sure the report was completed. I let him take his phone to school so he could work on the project.

When he came home from school, he had a presentation (good) about subliminal messages -- which did not seem related to the assignment objectives and was certainly not anything related to what he did the night before about phone communication.

He apparently was planning to do a report on subliminal messages --- and had spent time at school preparing this report and consulted with his English teacher-- and was NEVER planning on doing a report about the using phones as communication --- and lied to me about his topic and spent 3 hours working on a report he never planned to give just so he could get his phone back.

This is not immaturity or disorganization or misunderstanding. This is deliberate lying with significant action to perpetuate the lie.

It scares me.

I am seriously thinking about calling EAP -- or learning how to call EAP -- because I find myself crying about this. I keep thinking about if he will lie like this to people he loves who are trying to help him, what will he do with people or situations in which he doesn't care? I keep thinking about the book 'Defending Jacob' and I am afraid I don't know my son.

I don't know how to teach him to not lie.

What can I do?

[jren]

This is my almost 12 year old DD. And I fully expect it to get worse as the years go on. If we take electronics away, she will hunt the house to find them and sneak them. We've resorted to having my DH take them out of the house. She had a full on screaming match with me (with her doing all the screaming) because I caught her lying to me about washing her face. She was adamant she had washed it even as I pointed out the dry sink and lack of used face cloth. She did finally admit, but only after screaming at me for not believing her.

So, over the years she has been tested by a neuropsychologist and has seen a psychiatrist and psychologist for other issues. We got multiple possible diagnoses but never anything that all parties could agree on. Some of what we got were mood disorder nos, which was hinting at bipolar, and ODD.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that lying isn't normal at these ages!

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[bisous]

I only have a minute to write so here are some half-baked thoughts.

I just want to give you some reassurance about the lie that concerns you so much. I feel like this is something I would have done if I were given the circumstances given to your son when I was a teen. Technically he didn't really "lie" in the sense that he did prepare *A* presentation, just not the one he was supposed to do. And he ended up making his presentation. I know that for whatever reason, one thing I struggle with is working with a project on someone else's time table. So for your DS, he had to work on the project so he could get his tech, so he did! And he finished the project in his own way. At least that's how I'm reading it.

I know it is still dishonest. But he kind of handled it okay and still met your requirements. Maybe two approaches to handle this issue. First point out that he handled the project well on his own. Maybe that would allow him to more freedom to self manage? Second, I would explain that although he did work for 3 hours on his project, it hurt your feelings that it wasn't actually connected to his actual project. That you worry about telling the truth. Maybe you could come to an agreement that if he handles things well on his own, that you will do less micromanaging? I feel like coming across as someone who is managing and monitoring the situation but is recognizing your DS's growing independence as well is a good strategy.

As to the other lies, I think they are actually more serious. That would not be okay with me. They seem more blatant. I would follow up there and keep at it. Let him know now that honesty is important and expected. With the strictness, add in lots of communication and quality time. Build the relationship and tighten the reins at the same time, while allowing more freedom maybe in areas that he has demonstrated maturity.

It seems like technology is the source of most or all of the discord. I am not dealing with this yet with my 12yo but I anticipate that I will soon as many of my friends have.

I think I need to think about that piece a little more before answering.

[Green_Tea]

I am heartbroken and don't know what to do. [this post is hard to write because there are so many intertwined problems].

I have a super sweet, sensitive, loving boy 13 year old boy -- who lies.

For years, we have been struggling with responsibility and follow-through. He will tell us he did something, when he didn't. If he didn't do something, he will tell us he forgot or didn't know he had to do it. This happens with all types of things -- did you brush your teeth? do you have homework? did you clean your room? are you watching videos/playing a game on your computer..... When he lies or breaks rules about the use of technology, we typically take the item away for a period of time and he has to earn it back. Sometimes, he 'steals' it back without our knowledge and we find him using it when he does not have permission and has not done the things he needs to do. When asked a question, he will look downcast and mumble 'i forgot' and then a minute later (or unreasonably soon after our discussion of consequences) he will come up to me with a smile on his face and say 'hug?' and give me a hug..... and I am conflicted because I want to hug him, and yet I am so frustrated and disappointed and angry at him.

Recently, the "do you have homework?" has been a huge issue. He will tell me, my mom (whom he adores and sees every day after school) my husband -- everyone involved in his life -- that he doesn't have homework, when in fact he does. He is missing assignments and turning things in late because he will not do the assignments. Often these assignments are large assignments, but not necessarily. His grades are often 100 or docked because it is late or missing; as a result he is not getting the grades he should be able to achieve. We have given him planners and have asked the school for help, and the standard answer many teachers give us is that his "executive function" has not matured --- which is extremely frustrating to hear.... but this is another issue [my son is exceptionally gifted and the school has accelerated his education; he is generally in classes with kids at least a year older than him and goes to high school for math -- this wasn't a problem in grade school because of the self contained school environment, but maturity appears to be a huge problem now.]

One of the classes he is not doing as well as he should is English. Because of late or missing assignments, he has a C. One evening, he told us he could not do English homework because he was tired and needed to go to bed (early at 8:00). When my husband checked on him before going to bed himself, he found DS watching videos on his phone (which was supposed to be charging in the Kitchen). We took the phone away and told him he could not have it back until his English grade was at least a B.

We learned on Monday this week that he had a huge writing assignment/presentation due Tuesday (but was extended to Wednesday). We asked him on Monday what he planned to do, and he said he had it all figured out in his head. After lengthy discussion, he finally showed me the assignment and the grading rubric. The class is expected to do an argument presentation identifying the best mode of communication in the future in light of a technology scale. The students are to use the type of technology that best supports the argument.

HERE IS THE LIE THAT IS REALLY HURTING: He said he planned on arguing that communication by phone (talk, text, video, instant) would be the best form in the future. When I asked to see what he had prepared, he 'admitted' he hadn't written anything. He finally decided he needed to have slides he would display via his phone. I told him he had to write a detailed out line for the presentation and have a list of slides he planned to create before he went to bed. -- He worked for 3 hours and did this. I also contacted his case manager at the school to see if she could meet with him after school to help make sure the report was completed. I let him take his phone to school so he could work on the project.

When he came home from school, he had a presentation (good) about subliminal messages -- which did not seem related to the assignment objectives and was certainly not anything related to what he did the night before about phone communication.

He apparently was planning to do a report on subliminal messages --- and had spent time at school preparing this report and consulted with his English teacher-- and was NEVER planning on doing a report about the using phones as communication --- and lied to me about his topic and spent 3 hours working on a report he never planned to give just so he could get his phone back.

This is not immaturity or disorganization or misunderstanding. This is deliberate lying with significant action to perpetuate the lie.

It scares me.

I am seriously thinking about calling EAP -- or learning how to call EAP -- because I find myself crying about this. I keep thinking about if he will lie like this to people he loves who are trying to help him, what will he do with people or situations in which he doesn't care? I keep thinking about the book 'Defending Jacob' and I am afraid I don't know my son.

I don't know how to teach him to not lie.

What can I do?

The things I bolded are what stick out to me. I agree that this goes beyond what is age appropriate. He is not lying to cover a goof or mistake, or employing magical thinking - he's lying strategically and manipulatively. He is willing to go to elaborate lengths to get what he wants.

I am not one to push therapy or psych help on the BBB, but I think you should call in the big guns for this. I think you should see a therapist as a family. Kids often lie because it makes them feel like they are in control, which can be a sign that they feel very out of control in another part of their life.

[egoldber]

So I don't think this is terribly uncommon. It sounds like he in MS and taking 1 or more classes at the HS? One thing I have realized with my older DD that despite being academically gifted, a HUGE part of MS and especially HS academics is planning and organization. Neither of which is her strong suit.

When thinking about all he has to do, your DS is likely getting overwhelmed. I do think there is an element of magical thinking in kids saying "I don't have any homework" yet knowing that they do. The kid who feels overwhelmed, and often feels anxious as a result, will often retreat into escape routes: electronics, books, TV, etc. Heck I see a lot of adults do this, even at work.

My DD was diagnosed with ADHD-Inattentive in MS, which was when her academic strengths stopped being enough to compensate for a lack of executive function skills. But MANY kids with no diagnosis struggle with those skills. For HS, knowing things would be kicked up even higher, we hired an organization coach. She comes once a week and helps DD organize her binders, plan out assignments, get started on writing activities, etc.

So I honestly wouldn't worry that much. I think a lot of this is really normal. But I would look into getting help with these things. And in our case, DD responds much better to advice and coaching from a neutral third party than from us. I think in part she feels like we are judging her, and she doesn't have that worry with the coach.

ETA: I'm not saying don't work on it, or don't be concerned. But I think a lot of this is part of the normal adjustment period as kids move from elementary to MS/HS. I can't tell you how many parents at my DD's magnet HS complain about the same stuff. Kids who deny having homework, who avoid it, etc. It's very common.

[123LuckyMom]

It sounds like your DS is focused on getting what he wants and is willing to do whatever it takes to get it, including lying and taking things he is not allowed to have. I think this is a normal impulse and something most teens will do to some degree. I don't think it's good, though, and I think it needs to be addressed. Most teens who lie and sneak do so because they feel helpless. They know if they tell the truth they won't get to do things the way they want, so they lie. I'm a big believer in asking for help. Since I wouldn't know how to handle this situation beyond what you've already tried if I were in your shoes, I would seek help from someone who might know better. I would actually be concerned about depression and would want to make sure that wasn't an issue. Lying and evasion can often be a sign of depression in children and teens. I would also want to get ideas for changing the patterns that aren't working, so I would want to go for family counseling.

[roobee]

It sounds to me like a lot of this is revolving around the phone. Avoiding real work to get the phone. I think the phone needs to go. Like store the battery in your glove box and the phone in your husband's glove box. And then change your wifi password.

I totally put off doing stuff I need to do so I can goof off on my phone, it's an easy time suck. I spend my time on message boards and checking Facebook, and then doing a little shopping, etc. I think young boys are kind of at risk of becoming addicted to online video games, and depending on how good you are at locking down adult sites he could be looking at some pretty grown up stuff

I don't think the lying about homework you've described is over the top. Everything you wrote is directly about homework and technology. It sounds like he needs more direction on planning out how he's going to complete assignments. I'm guessing he feels overwhelmed, and like you said he has stuff planned out in his head, but that's accomplishing anything.

[DualvansMommy]

The things I bolded are what stick out to me. I agree that this goes beyond what is age appropriate. He is not lying to cover a goof or mistake, or employing magical thinking - he's lying strategically and manipulatively. He is willing to go to elaborate lengths to get what he wants.

I am not one to push therapy or psych help on the BBB, but I think you should call in the big guns for this. I think you should see a therapist as a family. Kids often lie because it makes them feel like they are in control, which can be a sign that they feel very out of control in another part of their life.

I'm with gold tea and Beth; your post seem to be a balance of both and I'm unsure of your DS's age; tween or teen. But you'll be right to be concerned and not just sit on it; how much concerned is the question should you & DH be? Lying is normal and to be expected in that age, but the extensive planning and manipulation can get more serous if it isn't really addressed.

I'm also wondering what's going on in your sons life besides school and home? Because I was like your son to a T around 11 and i went on with terrible lying and deceptive pattern for quite long time too! Green tea nailed it on the head by saying your son may be behaving like that because he feels huge loss of control in other aspect in his life. That was the crux of issue for me, as I discovered many things about my parents/mums alcoholism and other things which led me to go on into survival mode and trying to gain control of what I could in other aspect of my life. Not to say that's something big like that going on in your sons life, but think about his sports, activities and friends even.

Good luck.


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[octmom]

So I don't think this is terribly uncommon. It sounds like he in MS and taking 1 or more classes at the HS? One thing I have realized with my older DD that despite being academically gifted, a HUGE part of MS and especially HS academics is planning and organization. Neither of which is her strong suit.

When thinking about all he has to do, your DS is likely getting overwhelmed. I do think there is an element of magical thinking in kids saying "I don't have any homework" yet knowing that they do. The kid who feels overwhelmed, and often feels anxious as a result, will often retreat into escape routes: electronics, books, TV, etc. Heck I see a lot of adults do this, even at work.

My DD was diagnosed with ADHD-Inattentive in MS, which was when her academic strengths stopped being enough to compensate for a lack of executive function skills. But MANY kids with no diagnosis struggle with those skills. For HS, knowing things would be kicked up even higher, we hired an organization coach. She comes once a week and helps DD organize her binders, plan out assignments, get started on writing activities, etc.

So I honestly wouldn't worry that much. I think a lot of this is really normal. But I would look into getting help with these things. And in our case, DD responds much better to advice and coaching from a neutral third party than from us. I think in part she feels like we are judging her, and she doesn't have that worry with the coach.

ETA: I'm not saying don't work on it, or don't be concerned. But I think a lot of this is part of the normal adjustment period as kids move from elementary to MS/HS. I can't tell you how many parents at my DD's magnet HS complain about the same stuff. Kids who deny having homework, who avoid it, etc. It's very common.

Beth, how did you find an organizational coach? I think DS could benefit from something similar.


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[egoldber]

We found her here: http://ectutoring.com/educational-coaching

I don't think they serve your area, but if you Google "organizational coach <your city>" I bet something comes up.