Dog lovers - back legs weak, shaking - update in post 9

[ang79]

Our 3-4 yr. old Pekingese mix has had a few episodes recently, most of them include shaking, weak back legs (can't stand) and a panicked or confused look on her face. I have taken her to the vet, but it was a new vet that I wasn't super impressed with. Lab work was normal so his diagnosis was "it could be seizures and we can treat with twice daily meds, it may not be seizures, there's no way to tell but I recommend medicating and hoping it gets better". I do need to schedule her for her annual visit in February and will request a different vet to see her and follow up with the log I've been keeping.

1st time - about a year ago, we thought it was due to overheating from cuddling on the couch with us, lots of fluffy blankets on the couch. She was panting this time, looked confused, had trouble walking. Only lasted a few minutes then she was fine.

mid-Nov. - we were on a walk, 40 degrees. She did have on a fleece sweater because it felt cold when we first went out. She had been running a lot and was super hyper about the walk. A little girl stopped to pet her, then after the girl walked away the dog collapsed and started shaking. She couldn't stand up so I picked her up and carried her for a few minutes and also took off her coat, thinking she had overheated from all the running. A few minutes later she was able to walk fine the rest of the way home, even barking at all the neighborhood dogs.

First weekend of December - happened twice while were out of town at a cabin rental. First time was shortly after arrival in the cabin after riding in the car for 3 hours. She had been curious walking around the rental, ate dinner, then just collapsed on a rug on the floor. Shaking and looking very confused. I held her a few minutes, then she was OK. Two days later it happened again at the same spot while we were packing up to leave.

End of December - another episode a little while after playing in the snow with my kids. She was laying on a bench by the window, looking outside, and started shaking and looking disoriented.

And tonight she collapsed under the table. She was excited to get a baby carrot bite as a treat and couldn't walk over to get the carrot, but took it when I held it close to her and chewed it, but couldn't stand up. She wasn't shaking and disoriented this time, her back legs just didn't work to support her.

Each episode last just a few minutes, then she is back to her normal self. Any idea if these are seizures or if something else could be affecting her? Her lab work at the beginning of December came back fine. Her diet hasn't changed except we mix up her treats every now and then, but food is the same (has been on Natural Balance Venison for at least a year due to very itchy skin - don't think it's helping the itchiness but she likes it). I feel so bad when it happens because usually she just has this worried confused look on her face, like what is happening and please help me. I don't want to medicate twice a day for the rest of her life o the off chance it is seizures. I started documenting how often they happen to try to see if I can see a pattern. The only one I can see is over excitement each time except the first episode that was a year ago (on a walk, exploring a new place, after playing in the snow). But tonight she played in the snow maybe an hour or more before the episode, not right after it. Or maybe she is getting overheated or something as they have all happened in cold weather. Or less exercise in the winter since we aren't outside as much in the cold? I do try to take her for at least 1 short walk most days at noon unless it is totally miserable out and/or play fetch in the yard and she goes out and walks around the yard with my kids at least once each afternoon.

[carolinamama]

Not exactly sure what is causing it although it sounds like maybe seizure activity and is happening more often. Can you use your phone to record it so you can show the vet? It may be helpful for them to see it in action.

Hope you all get to the bottom of it and your pup is episode-free soon.

[doberbrat]

Not a vet, but I've never heard of seizures affecting only the back legs?

Could be a disk - or some other neurological issue. My 1st cocker had some intermittent weakness in his hind legs. He was diagnosed with a mild sprain and we were sent on our way. A few weeks later, he was standing on his hind legs barking at the mailman when he turned suddenly and was paralyzed from the waist down. $5000 surgery to fix the disk with a 50/50 chance of it working. He did walk and went back to competing in obedience but needed chiropractic care for the rest of his life.

If it were my dog, I would make sure he did not do any jumping etc and take him to see another vet.

[Kindra178]

No advice, I’m just sorry. Must be super scary and sad to observe this. I’m glad you will try a new vet. Do you have a university vet hospital near you? This seems like a specialist visit is needed, but I’m not sure what kind.


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[m4nash]

That sounds so scary. Maybe it’s shaker dog syndrome? I hope a new vet is able to get you some answers.

[Liziz]

My dog had something very similar happen to her last month. It only affected her back legs, it was very dramatic (i.e. - no question about it, her hind legs were not working), but then several hours later she was completely fine again -- running around chasing squirrels at top speed, etc. Our vet's final conclusion is that she thinks she had a TIA (mini stroke) that she recovered from quickly. My dog is a lot older (12 yo) and it's only happened the once but it sounded similar enough I wanted to share in case it helps. I hope you find out what's going on!!

[dogmom]

I do not think your vet is wrong in their assessment, but it sounds like they could have done a better job of explaining the reasoning to you. You mention back leg shaking and first I thought some kind of spinal thing, which can be common in that breed. But then your description sounds more like seizure activity because of the disorientation. I can go through both things with you.

I've had a dog with some back legs giving out (a Lab) that was probably spinal related. Happened a few times in the am, he would get panicked when he lost his legs, but he wasn't disoriented. The vet took an X-ray of the spine and was "oh there is all this damage, you must see an animal neurologist." Off I go to the neurologist at the expensive animal hospital, and he was, "Yeah, there are dogs with X-rays of their spines like that who have no symptoms and those with better X-rays that can't walk. It tells me very little." Importantly the exam he did showed some weakness consistent with arthritis and/or degenerative spinal stuff. He recommended a prescribed NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory) and see how it went. He offered me an MRI, but it was (1) expensive (2) the dog would need to be sedated for it (3) they still would not do any surgical intervention unless the impairment was much more severe and consistent. I chose the meds and watchful waiting. My dog was 8 at the time and was on it for the rest of his life. I eventually put him down for a combination of bad arthritis, pain, poor quality of life at 13. Never got that MRI, never regrated it.

Now seizures happened from a part of the brain that isn't functioning correctly, and the neurons start firing off when they shouldn't that sends of a cascade that ends in the outward expression of the seizure activity. Neuronal activity has to do with the opening and closing of different gates and channels neural cell with depolarization and repolarization. All off brain function is a balancing out of excitatory and inhibitory functions. (Very simple, not 100% accurate, but it will due as an explanation.) This spot of the abnormal brain cells the foci for the seizure activity, sometimes there can be more than one. The point where this small misfiring spreads is known as the seizure threshold. Things can lower or raise the seizure threshold. Increase in temperature can raise it, which is why anyone can eventually have seizures if their brain is too hot, kids are prone to this which is why they can have febrile seizure. Cold and different drugs can lower the seizure threshold. It's important to note you usually can't detect a foci of the seizure activity on a MRI, unless it is from a tumor. To figure out where in the brain it is you need to have them hooked up to an EEG machine and wait for a seizure to occur. So we bring patients in, take them off their seizure meds and monitor them hoping they get a seizure. Sometimes we still can't pinpoint the spot enough and we put electrodes into the brain. None of this is benign.

The classic movie presentation of seizures, the shaking limbs and such, are called tonic-clonic seizures. Sometimes they start on one side of the body they involve both sides, but that is often subtle and fast and missed. Seizures are marked by a post-ictal phase when people are confused, out of it and don't remember much. The length of this can vary. The danger is seizures can become status epilepticus, when they just keep going, don't stop without drug intervention and can lead to permanent damage. Seizures can be caused by metabolic derangement, but that would have shown up on the labs drawn at the vets. They can be congenital and show up at different times in a life span. They can develop after an injury: mechanical like an accident with brain damage, a stroke, or post-infection. They can also result from a tumor in the brain. (Adults with new onset seizures almost always have brain tumor.) Someone with seizures from an injury are sometimes placed on anti-seizure meds for a period of time if they are thought to be at risk for seizures then they are taken off them after a period of time to see if there is any seizure activity.

If your vet did an exam, set up labs, and didn't find anything to make him think it was a spine issue or a metabolic issue, I understand why they would try a trial of anti-seizure meds. The next step would be some expensive and not without risk imaging that would probably not show anything. The EEG monitoring I talked about it earlier to pinpoint the area a seizure is coming from is only done if seizure medications are not controlling seizures and the patient is still having them frequently. The purpose of locating the spot is in hope of actually cutting out or destroying that portion of the brain in hopes of stopping the seizures without causing too much brain damage to the patient in the process. Clearly this is not an option for a dog. I mean I guess one could image a dog in hopes of finding a brain tumor and treating it, but that would not be a viable option in most situations.

If it was my dog I would just try to keep an eye on when these things happen and take notes. If they happen more frequently. or last longer, I would consider anti-seizure meds. I would probably take my dog in twice a year, at least for a while, to keep up on lab work. It might be this is some kind of response to some injury, infectious or otherwise, that you weren't aware of an it will fix itself. Some people will advocate for some diet or supplement or such thing to help. I'm not a fan, but besides spending money and being an extra burden on year it's pretty harmless.

Hope this helps.

[ang79]

Thank you for the thoughts, definitely some things I hadn't considered! I actually never thought to video an episode, usually I am just concerned about holding her and trying to keep her calm. But I'll try to remember to do that if I have my phone handy. I'm not sure if the dazed look is disorientation or more panic from her because she knows something isn't right. Her eyes just keep looking at me like "Help Me". So I sit by her and hold her/pet her to keep her calm. This last time she was very alert (and focused on getting her bite of carrot!), but she could not physically move to get there. She also wasn't shaking. A few times with earlier episodes all paws were shaking and her head was even bobbing a bit, which does sound like a seizure. Just something about that vet put me off, it was a very brief appointment. I had planned to wait and document how often it was happening and go from there. She is due for her annual check-up in mid-Feb. that I need to remember to call and schedule for, I'll ask for a different vet at the practice. Unfortunately my favorite vet left, another one was out due to Covid and maternity leave, not sure if she is back yet. I'm tempted to try a different practice but not many vets around here are taking new patients at this point.

[ang79]

I did end up getting in with a different vet at our office last week. She spent a lot of time examining Bailey, watched a video I was able to take from a few days previously when she had another episode, and we discussed several possible causes, including neurological, seizures, and a spinal or hip joint issue. She ended up doing an x-ray and said it looked like possible hip dysplasia but she wanted to send the scans to a radiologist to get more input. She called today with those results: mild-moderate arthritis in her back hips, especially on the right side, and hip dysplasia, especially on the right side. She said it looked like the right hip actually popped out of socket when they were holding her for the x-ray, so she is thinking that is what is happening when her back legs go out (ether something popping out of place, or she is in pain and the panic look and shaking is from pain). I asked if we should start joint supplements or special food. She suggested Dasquin A. I actually had some Dasquin capsules from our cat last summer (who unfortunately passed shortly after the prescription was written, so not many were used). She said I can use those for now, so I started that tonight with her food. She also said we could try Hills Prescription Diet for joint health, but warned it is pricey. And she suggested getting some pet steps so that she is not jumping up on furniture as much (which she loves to do). The vet is going to send the scans to their orthopedic surgeon to also get her input. It's crazy to me that she is so young and has this diagnosis. And she doesn't appear to be in pain (other than the collapsing and shaking). She does lick her front paws alot, but I thought that was due to her itchy skin. Maybe she is in pain and she licks her paws to soothe/comfort herself? Does anyone have any other suggestions of things we can do to prevent further pain/damage? Or recommendations of food we could try? Is Dasquin the best option for joint supplement, or is there something else to try?

[Kestrel]

We had a dog with hip dysplasia. This was years ago, and a large-breed dog, so I don't know if the recommendations are the same, but we were told to exercise on grass only, no walks/runs on sidewalk or road pavement. We got the diagnosis early in the dog's life - at maybe 15 months old, and were able to keep it from getting much worse for over a decade. Exercise on grass, keep weight under control, fish oil or fish added to diet, and glucosamine supplements.